Recordings of Gypsies

Subject: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 05:11 PM

It is now fourteen years since I left the Folk Clubs. I am having the time of my life with my Blues Band and my Gypsy Wagon business is now employing three people, and in a large industrial premisis. That said I never fell out of love with the Folk Tradition, I felt like doing the odd Gig but I was persuaded out of it by various Folkies dissallusioned with the decline of the clubs. To get to the point, in the last sixteen years I have been around travelling people in all breeds, from the Romanys to the New Age and I've got loads of recordings I have made of songs (Folk and other).There is also my recordings of songs from Lancashire and Dorset.
There was a thread on the subject of Gypsy Songs some time ago. Liz the Squeak asked about my wife. (She is still just about walking, and we managed to camp at Appleby this year, which was a source of great joy to her)unfortunately there were some nasty predjudicial comments by one member about Travelling people which put me off contacting Mudcat, but since he or she was in the minority I have thrown caution to the wind and I can simply say if you want the recordings you can have them! As simple and as difficult as that. I have not got time to copy them, however a number have been copied and transcribed by the British Library, the rest are in the hands of a freind or lying about in my loft. (Typical of me!) The songs need singing! I have had my days of touring the clubs here and abroad. It is some one elses turn. If anyone has any ideas contact me through www.gypsy-wagons.com All the best to you all.
Nick Dow

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 05:21 PM

Have your ears been burning? Someone was only asking for one of your songs the other day!! (See Randy Parson thread).

I hope Mally continues to travel and stays well. Great to hear you are still active and look forward to hearing the new stuff.

LTS

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 05:32 PM

Oh, and it's great that you've decided the one bad apple isn't spoiling the whole barrel here... most of us are really quite friendly!

Next time we have a Mudcat Gathering 'oop north' (anywhere above Milton Keynes) we'll invite you over and show you how much you've been missed.

LTS

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 07:49 PM

Nick - Glad to hear that you are still alive and kicking - Its been a LONG time !!

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 02:55 AM

Hi Nick,
more people than we would be had to believe have roots back in the Romanies. Mine go back throught the Suffolk strain I believe.
One chap doing great things with Romany songs and music is Gwilym Davies. Have a look at his site, and give him a mail I know he will be fascinated.

http://www.cmarge.demon.co.uk/gwilym/#All%20about

His Email is [e-mail]

Regards,

Andy

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Tradsinger
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 03:09 AM

Nick,

I would love to take care of those recordings and would ensure that they are properly preserved and accessable to those who want to hear them. Let me know asap.

Gwilym (Tradsinger)

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Tradsinger
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 05:28 AM

Can anyone PM me with current contact and location information for Nick. Very grateful.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 05:34 AM

The first post on the thread is from Nick, with a website through which to contact him.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Tradsinger
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 05:37 AM

Done that, but wanted to check that the message got through. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 05:04 AM

Lots of people are interested so I am going to get somebody organised (i.e. not me!)to hold the recordings and give copies to anybody who wants them.
To give you an idea....
There are about 10 hours of Irish and Gypsy songs from the Wilson and Lee Families, recorded back in 1978
About Five hours of Lancashire songs from two sisters feom Singleton (Blackpool) Including 'The Maid and Her Box' 'Fleetwood Mashers' etc.
Over 20 hours of songs from Dorset including Bill and Norman House singing 'One Night as I lay on My Bed' and 'Fourteen Pence a day' and an entire singaround in the pub, with an accordian player called Flash Phelps with songs from Cliff Richards Batchelor boy through to 'The Foggy Dew'
Recordings of Gypsy Peter Ingram only two of which were included on the Topic C.D. 'King of the Gypsies' There are loads more including a version of 'Young Billy Brown' and the late Tom Brown left me a recording of Harry Cox in his will.
The recordings were stashed away when a Gentleman called Rod Stradling published an open letter telling all who read it that I was an ill educated fool, who should never have been allowed to collect songs. I had no university degree, and I was doing more harm than good. I took it to heart, and in retrospect should not have done, because there was a lot of support for me. My business has made me a wealthy man and I do not want to make money from the songs, just give them to people who like singing, and forget the academic brigade.
You need to keep on at me though! I will do something about it this month for sure, it's up to you to nag me though.
kind regards
Nick www.gypsy-wagons.com

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 05:40 AM

Oh, what bollocks from Rod Stradling..... Most degrees aren't worth the paper they're printed on! I bet a huge proportion of those people whose songs you collected had no University education and I'm pretty damned sure that a fair few of them had what 'we' would regard as NO education! Cecil Sharp was a mathematician but gave that up to become a music teacher/collector! I bet there are more people out there who love singing the songs because they are great stories and memorable tunes, than have a degree in anything!

If it weren't for people like you with your 'little reel of recording tape', we'd have hardly any of these wonderful songs and tunes. It seems like centuries since I hear the Houses sing ~ a long time and another life ago!

(And if you really want to annoy Mr Stradling, tell him that his taxes are done by people who barely scraped their maths CSEs.... that should make him sit up and think!)

LTS

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 09:29 AM

Thanks Liz!

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Rman
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 10:23 AM

He needs a swift kick in the Booleans! Stop him straddling a while.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 12:25 PM

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 12:26 PM

And Sqeaking Lizzie says "most of us are quite friendly" ?????

With friends like that......

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: open mike
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 02:49 PM

I am glad that your Vardo business is working out well.
We have seen you mentioned several times here on wagon threads.

Some friends have had a band for years playing music they describe
as Cowboy Gypsy.

There have been several documentaries lately on World Link T.V.
about Romany musicians in Rumania and Hungary. They mention the
Danc House Movement where traditional music and dance are enjoying
a revival.

I have a radio show and would love to have access to the recordings.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: open mike
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 03:03 PM

beautiful site, Ingham & Fallon .
I see there are several cassettes, videos and c.d.'s avaialble there.
if you would join here as a member
we could communicate thru Personal messages.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: treewind
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 04:48 PM

Hi Nick - if you're still watching, Mary and I would be very interested to hear your recordings. If you're happy to distribute them for free, I'll gladly put them on a website as MP3 files if you think that would be useful. I've got plenty of webspace.

Anahata
[e-mail] or sign in to Mudcat (free, harmless) and PM me.

(oh, and I've also learned through bitter experience not to take Mr Stradling too seriously either)

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 01:42 AM

Wher are the EFDSS? I would have thought they would be eager to get this achive into the RVW Library.

Malcolm?

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Tradsinger
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 03:33 AM

EFDSS and VWML resources for storing and allowing access to archive recordings are rather limited and their policy these days is to let the National Sound Archive at the British Library take the bulk of sound recordings. A lot of Nick's recordings are in the National Sound Archive already (I know, I have listened to some there).

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 04:03 AM

Of course, I'm completely biased because Nick collects songs from Dorset, where I was born and went to school with a couple of Gypsy girls from the local camp.

Hoot - I am usually very friendly, but having suffered the same sort of disparaging remarks that totally screwed up something I loved doing, I feel very strongly when other people are affected by the same thoughtless action. Remember your Kipling:~ "the female of the species....."

LTS

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 04:35 AM

Now I have heard of Sarah Makem and I am sure Sarah never had any degrees, this lady passed on numerous songs to collectors from far and wide.

Who is Ron Stradling?.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,Helen
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 05:45 AM

Nick - I remember you so well from my days at Birmingham University when you ran a club at the 'Old House At Home'. You were always most encouraging and supportive and I owe you a lot of thanks, because you helped me develop the confidence to sing and a desire to learn more about the songs and traditions. I hope you are still singing for your own pleasure, even if the rest of us have lost out on hearing you.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 06:46 AM

I've no desire to take sides over an issue I know nothing about, but some correspondents seem rather too ready to condemn Rod Stradling without having read what he said. Can somebody tell me where the open letter was published ?

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 04:21 PM

Yes I can! The letter was in Folk Roots (where else?). Ian Anderson had published an article that I wrote about my discovery of a Dorset Based traditional singer who sang me over 100 songs. I put a number of the songs on a commercialy available tape at my own expense and Ian asked for a copy, then handed it to Rod Stradling who decided that since my singer (Bill house) was an old man of 84, I should never have published the songs, it was a crude money making attempt on my part,that the tape was not worth buying, that I was not a 'professional' collecter and lacked both education and training, and that I should leave the matter of recording Folk Songs to my betters. (i.e. him I suppose!), and worse than that I had abused my freindship with Bill. I made up my mind to give the bastard a smack in the mouth, but mellowed over the years, and was given a severe talking to by Nic Caffery, who said 'Sod him and all he stands for and do your own thing' I must admit that Stradling was the beginning of the end of my involvment on the folk scene. I carried on collecting for myself and my freinds really. Topic published some of it. However the Good News is Nic Caffery is going to act as a clearing house for all of those kind people who are interested in the songs and he will supply copies to you. Contact me and I'll give you Nics phone/e.mail
Lovely to hear from Helen! Memories of the Birmingham days! Thanks for the kind comments Helen they mean a lot.
kind regards
Nick Dow www.gypsy-wagons.com

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Steve Benbows protege
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 09:10 AM

I would be very interested Nick. I am a fan of your Vardo's as well but don't have the wonga for one yet...

Please then could i have Nic Caffery's details.

With regards.

Pete.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,Helen
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 10:00 AM

It's no more praise than you deserve, Nick. I hope you'll consider returning to the scene one day.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 11:14 AM

Hopefuly we can reach Nic via the Limbrick club as well as the many festivals that he and Th'antiques roadshow do between them:-)

Good on you, Nick, and really good to hear from you again - Visit us at Swinton if you ever get the chance. You know you will always be welcome there. Bring along any copies you have left of your guitar tutor as well - I'm sure those who can't afford a van can at least buy one of those;-)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: nutty
Date: 26 Jun 06 - 01:49 PM

We would certainly like to see more of you Nick. I have a tape of you singing which I really enjoy.

The academics, in the 60's and 70's, tended to believe that they had control over source singer recordings whereas were it not for people like yourself who were in a unique position to collect such material, so much would be lost.

Believe me, your work is appreciated.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,old git
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 10:27 AM

I would just like to echo most of the above comments
My (now well worn) vinyl copy of "A Poor Man's Gift" is still regularly played....It would be good to hear you back on the circuit.
Jim Eldon did a lot of field recording with travellers and I think he also took a bit of stick over it...
Liz the Squeak ,although I agree with most of what you say ..."Most degress aren't worth the paper they're printed on" is a bit steep and insulting to those of us who are enthusiasts of recordings from source singers of all sorts of backgrounds AND have degrees

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 10:51 AM

Thank you all so much for your support. The fact is, I can not play Folk guitar like I used to do. My hands and wrists are a bit painful, and years of woodworking and carving have taken their toll. I'm OK for the blues gigs (i.e. with a plectrum playing lead guitar-lots of fun!) but all the old guitar tunings and Jigs and Reels demand a lot from my right hand and the fingers are a bit bent now. However I can still give a good accompaniment in ordinary tuning and my wife says my voice is a lot deeper and mellow. (I'd like to think that was true!) I must admit I am very tempted to do a couple of gigs again. No false modesty I am genuinely surprised that people remember me, and are still interested. Nic Caffrey will have all my recordings this coming Sunday and has agreed to make copies. My Blues Show is available on line at www.bbc.co.uk/lancashire I'm on air between 8-05pm to 9pm every Sunday, and you can ring me on the station number 01254-583583 if you want to contact me. By the way I don't own a copy of'A Poor Mans Gift', I've got a few of Mark Upon the Earth' left.
Thank you all so much.
best wishes
Nick

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 11:19 AM

Nick,

Rod Stradling has now passed on to me a copy of his review (not an open letter) for Folk Roots. After much though and soul searching, I decided the only practical repsonse is to post it on here. That way, all interested parties can make their own minds up.

It's not the kindest review I've ever read and, never having heard the cassette, I cannot judge the validity or otherwise of what he says. Equally, I cannot see anything in it to justify your various comments.

Fred McCormick.

Folk Roots, No.34, April 1986 : Reviews

BILL HOUSE, NORMAN GREY, FRED CHUBB

Gin And Ale And Whiskey OHC 104 (Cassette)

I suppose there must be quite a number of you out there who have actually heard an example of that dying breed, the Traditional Singer, in his/her natural environment, the Local. Some of you may even be in the lucky position of having such people in your own local and as neighbours in your own town or village (many more may be in this position without knowing it - but that's another story). You may very well have even taken a tape recorder along with you now and again to catch a bit of the action for a keepsake, or to learn the tune, or whatever. In fact, I know of lots of people who have such recordings kicking about their cassette racks and who will play them every now and again with a smile and a misty eye, or share the performance with a mate or two, or even send a copy to the singer or musician as a present. It is very rare indeed for them ever to go to the trouble of having photos screened, printing up a set of inserts, making multiple tape copies, sending cassettes off to mags like Folk Roots for review, and generally putting them on the market for public sale.

Such cassettes are usually only published by 'professional' collectors and almost always for some additional motive, i.e. to illustrate a particular style of performance or repertoire, to give an overview of the traditional music of a particular geographical area or, more rarely, to act as a showcase for the music of an individual or family. Such motives are often considered ample justification for the inclusion of performances of little intrinsic merit. The publication of a cassette which does not fulfil the requirements of the above criteria is, therefore, an unusual event and one which provokes some scrutiny of its worth and of the intentions of its publishers. This is, I feel, such a case and I am bound to ask what on earth prompted Nick and Mally Dow to want to expose Messrs. House, Grey and Chubb to the general public in this way.

The insert notes tell us that Fred Chubb played about two hours' worth of melodeon, mostly modern song tunes rendered unusable by background noise and we are left with one "more rare piece", an indifferent tune played - let's not quibble - badly. Of Norman Grey we are told only that he is middle-aged and unemployed. He sings only one song, the ubiquitous Cock-A-Doodie-Doo, in so charmless and forthright a way as to make it utterly offensive - nothing but dirty doggerel. I cannot see that the production is in any way enhanced by the inclusion of these two tracks, other than to give better 'value for money', a supremely inappropriate phrase in this case!

The rest of the cassette is given over to the singing of Bill House. Had this recording been made twenty years ago the results could, I am sure, have stood comparison with the best of Southern English country singers. Today, in his eighty-fifth year, I don't think it fair that I - or any outsider - should be asked to comment on what he must have felt to be a 'private' performance before friends and neighbours. What may be seen as an excellent recording of several evenings' worth of musical communication between Bill House and his young admirers is transmogrified, out of its social context, into something very different; it becomes a social gaffe. The relationship between collector and source performer ought, I think, to be one of respect and friendship. I hope I don't often embarrass any of my friends in this fashion.

Rod Stradling

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 11:39 AM

Well if that ain't a bit of condescending trash. Its seems his issue is with the qaulity of the singer and his repertoire so why on earth did he go after Nick & Mally the way he did? Pointless. Of course, I'm from Academia myself so perhaps I've just had my fill of colleagues such as that. they seem to live to sit in the back of the room at paper presnetations and wait for the right moment to go for the jugular during Q&A and comments with a "yes but...." type of comment. Glad I left the hallowed halls...

OK - one thing I am right confused about is the way Nick using the terms "Traveller" and "Gypsy" as if they were the same thing. So which is it or is it both? Is his wife both Freeborn Irish AND Rom or is she one or the other.

I know here in the USA most people assume the Freeborn are Rom but I assumed in the UK the distinction was much more distinct.

That said, my father had a number of Rom friends he made when he was a NYS Trooper (rural policeman) and it made for an interesting childhood. His one friend built a permament winter camp near where we lived about an hour outside of NYC and raised/trained wild circus animals. He offered us an ocelot kitten as a pet and my Mum put her foot down to that! Still, we enjoyed going out to the winter camp often.

As far as I know, there are no freeborn folk in our family but my father's profession brought him into close contact with some of the Northeastern US clans. I remember one young tough from such a family making threats to him after dad arrested him on a very serious charge but nothing ever came of it. Scared my Mum witless for a year or two because he had a big mouth and large family but again, it was just talk. My father was mostly a soft touch for travellers of any kind, Rom or freeborn or was known to mediate disputes rather than make arrests so most folk treasured him. It might be on account of his family's recent emmigration and perhaps he was just better acquainted with the culture.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Steve Benbows protege
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 12:44 PM

Dave's Wife
The term Traveller and Gypsy are used as one by non-travellers here in England, along with pike. As Nick will tell you, Travellers are usually thought of as Irish and Gypsies are the real deal , i.e Romany Gypsies.

There are terms such as mumper, which is a term going out of usage, for people who have drifted into a nomadic life.

Trust me if you have it in your blood or you have close contact as Nick does then there are alot more names of different groups - both Rom and Gadjo and ends up very confusing to try and explain!!

Kushti Bok.
Pete.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 01:13 PM

Thanks for the explanation Pete - One of my degrees in is Anthropology and I did some writing about the Freeborn here in the States but it never ocurred to me that someone from within the culture would use the the term Gypsy or Rom to describe an Irish traveller - in fact I'd not seen it before. The fact that "Country Irish" in the states (City folk - townspeople) use the terms interchangeably is a very sore point with the Freeborn here.

In and around NYC, we had plenty of contact with people of Rom descent who had settled somewhat such as my dad's friend who made winter camp and in his retirment, settled his whole famly in the winter camp locale. They were more than sore about being compared to the Freeborn - not something I'd recommend doing. Gadjo is not a word used that much over here but is used more in Canada. No need to explain the difference to me.

So I'm still confused - is Mally Freeborn Irish or is she Rom? Surely she isn't both is she?

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Steve Benbows protege
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 05:15 PM

"but it never ocurred to me that someone from within the culture would use the the term Gypsy or Rom to describe an Irish traveller" - i never did.

To be honest, traditionally no-one would. The travellers are seen as trouble. Both the Irish and the Rom would have had different "Atchin Tans" - stopping places. Due to different legislation, the Highways act 1964, the caravan act etc both were forced out of their nomadic life, into either council housing or into legal camps, toghether and forced to live side by side.

Most of the illegal camps you hear about in England are Irish travellers who then in the media are described as Gypsies. The gypsies do occassionally illegaly camp on their way to fairs: Stow, Appleby but it is only in passing. Not fair in a society where every other race/ethinicity has better human rights then them!!

The public here in England can't tell the difference between a Traveller, a gypsy, a mumper (The phrase is hedge mumper - a tramp or vagrant) or a new age hippie. They are all tared with the same brush regardless of their true ethnicity.

I hope that helps with a bit of history and background. Education on the subject help to break down some of the prejudices viewed/aired by non nomadic people.

Right i have had me say.
Pete.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 27 Jun 06 - 07:34 PM

Pete it wasn't you to whom I was refering but the original poster in this thread who refers to his wife Mally by both terms. I mistook your explanation for an explanation of why HE was using both terms to apply to one person as in to say "That's the way it's done in the UK". I can see now that you meant the general public makes no distinction which is often the same here in the States.

At least here, Non-ethnic folks who live a "transient" lifestyle are not looked down upon too harshly. We do call the type of person who used to follow the Grateful Dead "Bus Gypsies" if they live in a van or bus and "Bus Gypsies" can also mean people living in their cars in cities but nobody for a moment believes they are either Freeborn Irish or Rom. it's just a term.

On the East Coast, where I was raised, people do still call Freeborns "Tinkers" but "Tinker" can also mean someone making a marginal living performing services or selling goods from a wagon, car, bus, van, trunk etc. It was not uncommon in the Irish part of the Catskills to see non-traveller Irish (Country Irish) spending the summer selling music or Irish Cotton/wool goods out of a cabinet or wagon. They'd ply their trade to the folks up from NYC for vacation in little resort towns such as East Durham.

Now when I say resort, I don't mean fancy high living - just family cabins, a communal dining hall and nightyl entertainment in the dining hall. My grandmother and her siblings went East Durham in the 1920s as single girls with their brothers and cousins and I went with my friends in the 1980s. Not much had changed. I believe I still have a wonderful lavender and green wool shawl I bought from a Trunk salesmen there. Come end of summer, those folks either returned to stores they owned or mail order businesses. So you can see its not the same.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Rman
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 03:48 AM

* [snip] I hope I don't often embarrass any of my friends in this fashion.* [snip]

You certainly embarassed one extremely talented musician completely off the folk scene Mr Stradling - a job well done i hear you say?

Come on back Nick.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 03:56 AM

I think the term 'Travelling people' rather than 'travellers' was used by Nick in his first posting. True Romanies, Gypsies, whatever you call them, have for many years (if not centuries) been known as 'travelling people' or 'travelling nation'. 'Travellers' ~ meaning 'new age hippies' is a fairly modern term and is usually derogatory, thus making the distinction necessary.

I seem to remember that Mally is either from, or is closely related to a Romany/Travelling family from Dorset (hence Nick's collecting of songs from the county). I grew up near their camp and we never had any trouble from them. They were quiet, courteous and tidy, unlike the travellers who descend on a large car park near my present home and turn it into a tip within hours of their arrival.

Mind you.. some of the residents can do that quite happily and not complain until they have to pay more council tax for clean-ups.

Hope that shines some light.....

LTS

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 04:00 AM

*Clarification:~*

That's modern day travellers who provide the mess and cause trouble....

One of the leaders of the Gypsy Council was a good friend of ours (until her death a couple of years ago) and even SHE wouldn't have anything to do with those travellers.

LTS

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 04:06 AM

The 'what constitutes a real Gypsy' discussion opens up an extremely unpleasantly racist can of worms and has done a great deal of damage to the Travellers situation today. Intermarriage and settlement have made the gypsy - tinker argument a largely irrelevent one, but it still constanly raises its ugly head and has gone a long way to dividing the Travelling community and preventing them from obtaining their rights to sites, education and other facilities, certainly in the UK.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 04:17 AM

I've received an email from Rod Stradling complaining that I posted his Folk Roots review on this thread without his permission. He is quite right and I am very sorry and I should have acted with less haste. Posting it constituted a violation of intellectual property rights, something I have had cause to complain of in the past when my own work has been violated.

I also agree with him that there is no point in stirring up a twenty year old argument.

Even so, I feel that my original contention still stands; namely that Nick Dow's allegations are a travesty of what Rod actually wrote, also that people who sided with him should not have done so without reading the review.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Rman
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 06:44 AM

Surely the point of stirring up a twenty year old argument is that hopefully, the next generation of AR folk police might go a little easier on our rapidly dwindling family of folkies.

Rather than belittling their efforts - without investigating the reasons why things were done in a perhaps; *different* manner - they might have the respect not to publicly denigrate the artists efforts?


Get a grip.

Music is for all people to play and sing, not to be kept on a sad mad dusty man's shelf.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 08:24 AM

I didn't take Nick's post as an invitation to drag open an old argument. I believe he was just relating a common experience - running into some prejudice on the part of an Academe Folkie against an 'amatuer'. I read Stardling's letter and it seemed to me to be very much the same kind of thing as I see here in the States. What was pointless seemed to me to be the letter itself. Why attack a cassette that might have sold a few hundred copies? Silly really.

I'll not comment on it further. Let's let the thread revert to a discussion of Rom music if it can.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 12:04 PM

Jim obviously you have nothing to do with the "Travelling Community" as you put it. Leave it to guys who know like S.B.P

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: nutty
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 02:25 PM

Fred... I have to take issue with you over the 'let sleeping dogs lie' attitude that you expect Nick and others to take.

Yes, 20 years is a long time but, after reading Mr Stradling's vicious attack on Nick as a collector, then I know why he is still feeling hurt.
20 years ago his work may have seemed to have little importance ..... electric folk was all the go and source singers, particularly those who had lost their ability to perform, were obviously not worth bothering with.

Sadly. Mr Stradling was so tied up in trashing the tape, that he actually forgot to review it in its entirity.
I would have expected the review to contain rather more comment on the track list than was managed...... was the content folk?, popular song?, etc.
Sadder still is the fact that there are still reviewers out there who believe they have a right to commit this sort of insult (There was a recent example of such a review in my local folk magazine).

These are not matters of State. There should be no 'publish and be damned' attitude particularly when the recipient of your remarks has no form of redress.
I still believe the old adage applies. If you can't think of anything nice to say - don't say anything and I would have thought far more of Mr Stradling if , rather than berate you for letting the world know what he had written, he had actually, belatedly, published an apology.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,helen
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 02:53 PM

Well said, Nutty. I thought Mr Stradling's letter was uncalled for as well. I also wondered how he could assume that Mr House felt he had given a 'private' performance when he had already stated that he was 'an outsider' to the event. For all we know, Mr house could have been absolutely delighted that his music might reach a wider audience.

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 11:17 AM

I have started something haven't I. Well I think the best thing is to put the record straight. This is the truth then.
Stradlings review is not as bad as I remembered it. However the thing I find unforgivable even after twenty years is the personal attack on my integrity. The idea that I was exploiting my friendship with Bill house and his family is not only incorrect but also offensive, and unnecessary. Lets face it, Stradling behaved like a gobshite, and I hope somebody told him to his face. (I never ran into the man, which is probably lucky for him)
The main point is, that Stradling was only a small part of my decision to retire. He caught me at an all time low. At that time I was suffering from atrocious health and ended up in Hospital for several months. The result was that I lost my house, and just escaped bankruptcy. My union Equity gave me a hardship payment that paid the deposit so we could rent a small two up two down house in East Lancashire. My parents were still alive and they bought me a caravan God Bless them. Mally and I lived half in and half out of the house. I earned a living by sign writing and painting trinkets (Roses and Castles etc) and selling them at Horse fairs and steam Rallies. We were camping around the country,(we buried or disposed of all our rubbish by the way) and fell in with a travelling family called Mic and Susie Darling and their kids. I recorded Mics songs and the tapes sold in hundreds. Incidentally I was not bothered weather we were travellers, Tinkers,mumpers or anything else. We were just surviving. I played songs with Mic in pubs and in the street. We can be seen on a film of Stowe Horse fair singing the Romany Rye together, and later on travelled to Appleby and Lee Gap fairs.
At Lee Gap I helped the late Gypsy Strongman Johnny Eagle with his act, wrapping him in chains to help with his escape act, and trying (and failing) to bend the iron bar.
In 1995 I bought my first Wagon for £1900 and tried to paint it up. I sold it at a profit and hand built another. I sold that and eventually moved to a static Caravan on a site in Thornton Lancashire. After five or six years we were forced off the site by racists who attacked my wife for being a 'Gyppo' spat at my Grandchildren and set dogs on us when we were working outside. I managed to buy a detached bungalow, and started my business in earnest, making a living entirely from wagons. I was good at it and at I now employ three people, and I am far from destitute.
I never was and never will be a scholar. I understand Gypsies and Wagons, Horses and Dogs. I can play and sing most music fairly well. On the Folk scene when I was younger I felt intimidated by the teachers and social workers(and Stradlings) I met, which made me aggressive and a bit pushy, and I think I may have upset more than a few people.
Stradling hit a nerve, but it's time to let it go. So that's why I offered my recordings to anybody who wants them for free. I don't have anything to prove any more. I think I've said more than enough about myself so I'll finish by saying thanks again for all the supportive comments, and if you want to contact me I'm at Radio Lancashire every Sunday night.
Kushti Bok
Nick

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 03:07 PM

Just to put 'Guest' in the picture, I do have experience of Travellers; some thirty five years of recording them, mainly Irish, in the Greater London area. Our collection of several hundred tapes is housed at the British Library in London with full public access, and to date we have released a cassette and a double CD of songs and stories, along with contributing tracks to Topic's 'Voice of The People' series.
If I have learned anything in the time I have been working with Travellers, it is that separating them into 'real Gypsies' and 'others' is divisive and has done much to make sure that Travellers continue to live in the appalling conditions that that do (without decent stopping places, running water, sanitation and access to education).
Describing Travellers as Romanies or real Gypsies is nowadays largely a romantic conceit. Intermarriage, urbanisation and settlement has largely put paid to such distinctions. The traditions have all but disappeared along with the language, the old way of life, the horse-drawn caravans and the traditional Travellers trades such as tinsmithing and horse-dealing.
I do think it important for Travellers not to loose touch with their roots and traditions, and for those outside the community to know and understand their way of life; that is one of the reasons why we embarked on recording a lifestyle we believed (rightly) was rapidly disappearing back in the early seventies.
However, it is also important to recognise that the old ways have largely disappeared and unless something is not done very quickly there will not be a Traveller on the road in ten years time. If this is not to be the case it will take the combined efforts of all Travellers, not just the 'real' Gypsies to prevent this from becoming a reality
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Recordings of Gypsies
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 05:42 AM

Jim Carroll wrote: "unless something is not done very quickly there will not be a Traveller on the road in ten years time."

Does that matter or is it that too just a romantic affectation?