BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: Paul Burke
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 03:30 AM

Weren't we criticising the British government? Read what was said again. ANYONE.

That means the Taliban, Al Qaida, the Burmese generals, the Chinese, the American government, the British Tonyistas, the old Iraqi state, the new one, the European countries who collaborate with "rendering", the people who supply the equipment, the private "security" firms now so popular with big business in many countries, and so on.

And don't pretend that it's anything to do with God or freenamoxy.

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 02:35 AM

If you are referring to my comments, perhaps you should know that I am not from "across the pond."

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 10:43 PM

Excuse me all of you self rightious people from across the pond but last I heard Great Britain still had troops in Iraq. They are probably also killing innocent people and doing the same things that the US forces are doing. So criticize you own government as well as ours please.

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 09:58 PM

"but we do not FILM such atrocities as "PR" for our audience; we do not "celebrate" such things as an "Allah Akbah" occasion."

Yeah, you just hire the hit men. No need to dirty your hands when you have all those men under military orders. Your guys don't even have the balls to admit what they've done. They're cowards who hide and lie to cover up their atrocities.

As far as celebration goes, I think your media does a pretty good job of broadcasting the number of insurgents killed by your troops.

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: John O'L
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 07:10 PM

What would YOU have us do? Pull out, and let things "be what they will be?" regardless of the consequences?

That is arguably more humane than staying indefinately trying to repair the damage we've done, and continuing to fail

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: GUEST,van lingle
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 06:57 PM

Yes, Annony Mouse, bully for us and our humane brand of torture. We are far too discreet to film it (Abu Ghraib ,of course, was just some light hearted buffoonery) and much too civilised to celebrate it for PR purposes. And kudos to us for out-sourcing our "torture clients" to less evolved allied nations for pro-active information gathering. Bravo!vl

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 04:23 PM

Reply to Mouse
We don't need you to tell us it is grusome to hack someone's head off.....but what is the difference between that and blowing someone's head off as the US military has been doing in large numbers for the past three years.
And as for filming the war crimes I seem to recall the guards at Abu Ghraib doing a good job at that with their cameras and the resulting torture details being sent rapidly around the world !
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 03:32 PM

We have tortured quite a few people to death, Annony Mouse. I don't see how being tortured to death could be any less unpleasant for the victim than having one's head cut off.

When you call people "liberal assholery" for objecting to the needless slaughter of many thousands of innocent civilians, it shows just how completely you have sold your soul and your humanity.

Objecting to the needless slaughter of innocent life is NOT a liberal concept.

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 03:26 PM

I have not attempted to justify their actions, Amergin.

The question, "What is with these psycho/sociopathic murderers?" was asked, and I attempted to answer it.

And I don't agree that they would necessarily be committing these crimes if their countries were not being bombed into oblivion by the US and/or crushed under the heels of our puppet dictators.

Since you don't live in one of the countries where the US has been meddling and creating total chaos and/or propping up brutal dictators, you don't even know how you would respond to such acts of aggression if you lived in one of the target countries.

It's quite a fallacious illusion for you or anyone to assume that you wouldn't be doing precisely the same things that "these psycho/sociopathic murderers" are doing if you found yourself in their shoes.

The US has killed many, many more tens of thousands of them than they have killed of us. To suggest that they are any more "psycho/sociopathic murderers" than we are is the height of hypocrisy.

But perhaps you don't consider the brown skinned people of the Middle East to be fully human or something, and that's why you only consider it a crime to kill us but not a crime to kill them.

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 03:16 PM

Sorry folks: apples to oranges. When was the last time your saw U.S. military brutally TORTURE a person, and then send in their "general" to slice his head off with a saw-knife? It AIN'T the same. Anyone who says it is, is mistaken. Yes---innocents have been killed, mutilated, died: but we do not FILM such atrocities as "PR" for our audience; we do not "celebrate" such things as an "Allah Akbah" occasion. I have yet to see any convincing evidence that Americans tortured and sawed off the head of an Iraqui (or Jordanese, or Iranian). You're liberal assholery is showing. What would YOU have us do? Pull out, and let things "be what they will be?" regardless of the consequences?

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: GUEST,Amergin
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 03:12 PM

No, Carol, I was not referring to Bush....I was referring to this new fellow, Abu Hamza al-Muhaje. Whenever, there is an uprising against a foreign occupier or even a rebellion against a home grown leader, there are always those willing and eager to commit murders and other atrocities in order to fulfill their political needs...whether or not their cause is a just cause.

While, I do understand the motive for many of these people who are fighting back and I sympathise with their position...I cannot sympathise with their actions as it is our boys and innocent civilians who are getting murdered in heinous ways.

This being said, blokes like al-Zarqawi and al-Muhaje, would still commit these crimes, even if we up and left the Iraq tomorrow. They would do so in efforts to enforce their brand of policies, irregardless of what the majority of the population yearned for.

One thing, I do not understand though, are your weak attempts to justify their actions. This war is wrong all aournd, there is no right side, all are wrong, and the justifications for both sides of the fence, are an injustice to human race at large.

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 02:58 PM

The "new boss" by now is only a name to be read in some bulletins. It could be a single person but it also could be just an invented name used by a group as a cover.

As Paul has written, the brutal murders are meant to provoce a reaction, but that's only one aspect. The other aspect is propaganda for their way of fighting. That is the message for the supporters: We are the strongest and most brutal fighters.

The new Mafia boss needs to make a show af strength. Just in case....

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 11:24 AM

Its not Eyerack , its Ouraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: sian, west wales
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 10:26 AM

Thanks for that, freda. I've bookmarked it. All grist to the mill.

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 10:20 AM

If you say so, Guest,21 Jun 06 - 07:57 AM.

I actually didn't form an opinion on whether or not the US has done more harm than good in Iraq until sometime in the last few weeks. But now that I have an opinion, I am prepared to defend it vigorously.

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 09:07 AM

Shit. You mean killing Zarqawi ISN'T going to make Eye-Rack safe for democracy & bring this clusterfuck to an immediate end?

Who Knew?????

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 08:56 AM

Recruiters need boogie-men...

When the war-mongers couldn't find Osamo-bin-forgotten, they elevated
Zarqawi to boogieman de jour and when they killed him they had to hurry another boogieman de jour into service...

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 08:22 AM

Sian, you might find this website interesting:

Islam and Iraq

It discusses Iraq and the war from a Muslim perspective. The site is attached to another site for Progressive Muslims.

regards

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 08:06 AM

Paul Burke makes the most cogent point - atrocities happens as a way of provoking a response that will justify continued bloodshed.

The only distinction between atrocity and reprisal is one of book-keeping. Reprisals are a kind of collusion. Everyone who ever carried out an atrocity can point to some earlier action that justifies them in claiming that what they did was an appropriate or at least excusable reprisal in kind. And if even that ever fails there is the old saying "get your reprisal in first."
.....................
We shouldn't try to make too much of the word "martyr" in this context. The word for "martyr" is the same as the word for "witness" in Arabic, as it was originally in our languages.

"The countless white crosses in mute witness stand".

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: sian, west wales
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 08:04 AM

I've been thinking that I should do more to learn about all this stuff so I'm going to start reading. I flew to Canada and back recently, so picked up something at the airport to kick off - "The Trouble with Islam Today: A Wake-up call for Honesty and Change" by Irshad Manji. It's in the form of an open letter to her fellow Muslims. I'm finding it very interesting. Like any book, it's probably very slanted, and I think she's tending to ramble in bits, but I'm glad I started with her. I have a few others lined up, but I think than some Catters might find this an interesting read with some ... challenging?... ideas.

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 07:57 AM

CarolC - you do have the answers. Don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 07:15 AM

The people who consider them martyrs when they are killed by terrorists also consider them martyrs when they are killed by coalition forces as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: Ernest
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 07:04 AM

Iraqui children killed by coalition forces = victims

Iraqui children killed by terrorists = martyrs

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: Mr Fox
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 05:53 AM

Pity the coalition of the Clueless haven't read any Terry Pratchett:-

"Shoot the dictator and prevent the war? But the dictator is merely the tip of the whole festering boil of social pus from which dictators emerge; shoot one, and there'll be another one along in a minute. Shoot him too? Why not shoot everyone and invade Poland?"

from 'Lords and Ladies'

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: Stu
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 04:24 AM

"ANYONE who ever seriously contemplates the use of torture has put themselves outside the pale of humanity. And anyone who assists them, or turns a blind eye, or voices support, is equally guilty"

So that damns virtually everyone who lives in the US and Europe then for starters, as our governments actively participate or assist in torture.

Guantanamo, rendition, cluster bombs and daisy cutters, Abu Grahib, Camp Whatever in Kabul etc etc etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: John O'L
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 04:22 AM

Yes the coaliton of the cretinous has done all the good they are ever likely to do for the people fortunate enough to be selected for their benevolence, it's time they left. It can't be fixed, it can only be made worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: Paul Burke
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 04:19 AM

ANYONE who ever seriously contemplates the use of torture has put themselves outside the pale of humanity. And anyone who assists them, or turns a blind eye, or voices support, is equally guilty. That includes terrorist organisations, states, police forces, armies, and individuals.

The murders are clearly designed to provoke the occupying forces, either as policy or just at platoon level, into taking retaliatory actions which will be almost inevitably against the wrong people. Another turn of the screw.

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 02:45 AM

One problem is there has been a long and detailed history of American and British interference in the Middle East. Both countries have undermined or halted democratic ,progressive or nationalist movements from Egypt to Iran and beyond.
Governments have been overthrown, countries have been invaded, dictatorships have been supported with finance and arms and state terror has been quietly funded all in the interests of Big Oil.Whole populations feel humiliated by imperialism.
Iraq has been plunged back into barbarism caused and fuelled by the invasion and occupation.Its time to get out.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 02:25 AM

"What is with these psycho/sociopathic murderers?"

I'm sure the mothers of the Iraqi children who have been killed and maimed by the U.S. and its allies, are asking the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 01:53 AM

history repeats itself

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 12:31 AM

You're talking about the Bush administration, right, Amergin?

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: Amergin
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 12:20 AM

Or it could be they use these as an excuse to gain power to satiate they're own thirst for blood...

Subject: RE: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 12:09 AM

What is with these psycho/sociopathic murderers?

Oh, I don't know... they're tired of us bombing their countries back into the stone age maybe?

Or maybe they're tired of us propping up brutal dictators in their countries (if they don't happen to live in the ones we are currently bombing)?

Maybe that's it.

Or maybe they're tired of us killing their women, children, and old men.

Could be any of those.

Subject: BS: Meet the new boss...same as the old boss
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 12:00 AM

Zarqawi's death appears to be much like pulling one's hand out of a bucket of water. Now, "Mr. Evil" is Abu Hamza al-Muhaje. Just to fill in his resume, he apparently oversaw the cruel torture and murder of the 2 servicemen captured. And it was reported that "He, himself cut both their heads off." What is with these psycho/sociopathic murderers?