Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!

Subject: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 07:06 AM

Just an observation and a question to all you folk club attendees and performers out there:
Over the many years I've attended folk clubs I have to say that by my observation most performers don't want to listen to anyone else but themselves. Now the problem may well be down to trying to mix two elements that are diametrically opposed, i.e. Singers' Nights and Guest Nights.

Where clubs are predominantly Guest Nights, with just the occasional floor singers, there appears not to be much of a problem – in general they are well attended (at least the ones I frequent) and the audiences are appreciative of the talents on offer. Similarly, clubs that have mainly Singers' Nights seem well attended (though maybe not by audiences!). However, when Singers-type Clubs put on the occasional guest where do the regulars go?? – my guess is they decamp to another venue where they can strut their stuff, or (failing that) stop at home.

My conclusion is that most performers don't want to hear other performers – they're simply waiting patiently and politely for their bit of glory. Some even piss off into the night as soon as they've been on, whilst others may stick around trying not to look too bored (the most ignorant of course will stick around and strike up conversations with those of similar motivations during someone's performance).

I saw undisputed proof of this phenomenon recently when I entered a club that was packed to the rafters (until the end of the second spell of floor singers that is) but by the time the guest artists had started their second set more than half the "audience" had charged for the exits, leaving the embarrassed guest performers to entertain the few embarrassed folks that were still there.   

So – the question – is this typical of folk clubs, or only a local disease?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 07:20 AM

It wasn't my experience in my times of involvement with folk clubs.

You could have 2 or 3 weeks struggling with few floor singers and on the guest night, "every" blasted floor singer would turn up wanting a spot... At times I did wonder whether the reason for this with some of them was who they wanted to perform to.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 08:00 AM

At one club I know, the problem seemed to be that the committee responsible for booking guests virtually never visited the club themselves, and never consulted anybody else about what acts they might have wanted. They would then book acts we'd never heard of and didn't tell us anything about them. The best attandances were for a few regular acts that came every year, we knew what we were getting with them.

Perhaps if the club's performers were asked "who do you want us to book?" they might turn up.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: Moses
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 08:16 AM

At Herga Folk Club (Harrow, Middlesex) we have a "wish list".

Herga is primarily a singers club with about a dozen or so booked guests throughout the year and a sprinkling of showcase spots and theme nights as well.

All club members are invited to request whomever they want the club to book - it may be someone they have seen at a festival that they want other members to have a chance to see or someone they've heard about who they have not had the chance to see live themselves.

If enough members request the same performer then, providing finances allow, the club trys to fulfil the request.

This seems a fair way of doing things

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 08:31 AM

The clubs I go to regularly charge an admission fee for guest nights (and a small charge is made for singarounds/sessions).

The 'guest night' fee is not insignificant and I for one wouldn't want to miss the act I've paid to see. I'm surprised to hear this happens at other clubs, unless I misunderstood the OP.

As for the comment 'most performers don't want to hear other performers', that also seems at odds with my experience. If I pay to see an artist then I go along to see them, whether or not I perform as a floor singer. OK, I may not always enjoy the star turn as much as I'd hoped, especially if I'd never seen them before and didn't know what to expect, but I've never walked out (the only exception was once when I had to get the last train home from a distant club and had to miss the second set as a consequence). It's true that most performers, whether a floor singer or taking part in a singaround, are eager to do their turn, and I occasionally don't like a particular performer's efforts, but most of the time I'm happy to hear others have a go and I think most others seem to as well.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 09:05 AM

We seem to have a variable reaction at Gainsborough and so have recently been wondering if we should continue to have guest nights.

For now we are putting on a couple of guests in the autumn / winter months. We always ask our membership for ideas of who they would like to see. We are aware though that some members will not come on guest nights because they may only have the chance to perform once themselves.

I think we'll be watching this thread to see if we can get any answers!.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 09:23 AM

I agree with Lowden that there ARE 'floor singers' who only appear inside the club for 'their' spot , but round here they are definately in the minority . Personally I am always interested in what other artists are doing as I am NOT a Snogwriter , and have to hear what new songs are around - I also 'steal' ideas for arrangements and such from any one else , so have a vested interest in listening to others . Maidenhead tends to book a guest avery other week or so , and the Club is usually well attended for the guest nights . In between we have singers nights and theme nights , when it is VERY rare for any one to get more than one floor spot !
The Singers nights help to subsidise the guest fees , and the standard of performnance in the club is generally quite high , with a good mixture of assorted songs and tunes , both traditional and new written ,with poetry readings occasionally as well .

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: Rasener
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 09:24 AM

I am trialling full gigs at the moment on a Saturday instead of my normal Friday.

As mine is a concert style club, I find I still get a reasonable audience including other performers etc who would normally go to singarounds.

I decided to do mine the following way.

I put the guest on at 8:00pm until latest 10pm. From 10:00pm until midnight we have a singaround. Everybody is asked if they want to be included in the singaround and are given a number. When the singaround starts, the numbers are drawn out of the hat. When they have all come out, we start again. (My thanks to Mrs Sooz for that bright idea)

The advantage of this (and IMHO it works) is that non performers and performers alike come to see the guest and can stay on afterwards if they want to and do a couple of numbers. The guest has the choice to stay on, or hit the road at a reasonable time, without having to feel that they should stay.

Have managed to get 50 or more for each one.

I will wait for BBP to find my grammatical/dyslexic finger errors :-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 10:11 AM

Must be difficult having a fyslexic dinger Les. LOL

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 10:13 AM

Please don't respond to jerks.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: Rasener
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 11:18 AM

LOL

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 12:21 PM

As a guest performer I have seen this behaviour. I can't count how many times I've had a full house but the organiser has said they can't see many regulars. "You always attract your own audience" they say. Yes, I do, by hard work and a mailing list.
It's a shame that the regulars don't turn up. Most of them have never seen me and might enjoy themselves, but in the end I can't make them come and I can't fight their prejudices and narrow mindedness. Part of the problem is that they don't like to pay for an evening at their club, and when it might be as much as £6 or £7 some of them are apparantly appalled.
I think Villans idea of having the guest do the early part of the evening and then having a club night afterwards is progressive. The guest gets to leave early for his/her journey home and the egos get to sing. However I would stipulate that they must attend the concert part of the evening, and they must pay!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: SussexCarole
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 12:47 PM

"...the egos get to sing!"

OUCH!!! Whatever gives you the impression that singarounds are for those with egos to feed? I would suggest that most who are there enjoy singing/playing and wish to share chorus and harmonies with others. Sharing music with others is not just for those who are paid to be at a venue!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: Rasener
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 01:11 PM

>>However I would stipulate that they must attend the concert part of the evening, and they must pay! <<

Correct Guest.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 01:24 PM

Whenever a group of people get together to do ANYTHING, there will be disagreements.
Over the years I've noticed most of the incidents that have been mentioned here, and I too get bugged when someone shows up just long enough to do their one or two songs and leave.
Another thing that may be causing people to leave is the few people who sing the same 2 or 3 songs at EVERY session. How do they avoid getting bored? How does the audience avoid getting bored?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 01:45 PM

We have a system for our occasional gatherings where the names of those who want to sing go in the hat, and are pulled out at random.
I haven't sung for 4 years, I still go because I enjoy it, one day maybe my name will come out of the hat, until then the audience are safe!
Giok

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 02:02 PM

What I meant Sussex is that a proportion of these "regulars" expect the club to be there for their pleasure, but do nothing to help the organisation or support the events. To give you an extreme example I recently watched a "regular" perform one of my own songs, obviously not knowing wh had written it, before exiting the club before I went on!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: alison
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 08:19 PM

depends on the dynamics of the club.

Nearly everyone in my club Toongabbie Music Club - Sydney goes there to have a go (beginners to professionals)& enjoy making music with others, there is no "audience" as such. So I gave up on hiring guests many years ago, because the musos would turn up for a sing-a-long after the guest (who would only play to a handful of people)had finished. The other Sydney clubs cater for "guests" and "floor spots." We do get guests turning up occasionally on their way through, but they just take their turn like the others.

So everyone is happy and if there are guest performers they want to see they are sure to be at one of the other folk clubs around.

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 04:34 AM

Interesting thread this because it goes to the heart of an issue many uk folk clubs are grappling with today. Uk clubs span from ones like alison's above to 'concert' clubs where only the guest gets to play. There seem to be basically three types of people who frequent clubs, those who only want to Listen, those who'd prefer only to Perform, and those who are happy to do a bit of Both. The trick seems to be to run your club to suit the people who are willing to come by often. But the trouble is that some Listeners don't appreciate every Player's efforts, so, if there are a lot of floor spots on Guest nights, many Listeners (including any number of 'non-folk-club' people) stay away (which probably doesn't bother the Players, nor should it). Yet because some Players are not bothered about Guests either, you can wind up with a poor turn-out for even quite big names - and it becomes impossible for new acts to build to ever become a Name. Which is why more and more clubs are doing what alison did, and giving up on guest nights altogether. Meanwhile more people are deciding to give pro club work a go - so we have more Guests chasing a dwindling number club gigs. The laws of supply, demand and the Peter Principle are taking care of this, with many pros also giving up on clubs, and going elsewhere for a living. No-one ever said anyone should be able to make a living in the clubs, but I think the folk scene would be a less vibrant and rewarding place for Guests, Listeners, Players and Boths, if a majority of clubs were to become become 'locals-only.'

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 05:18 AM

Good points, Tom. I'm firmly in the third category "happy to do a bit of both". While I enjoy performing, I also love listening both to established artists I've seen before, and new ones I haven't. I regularly go to concert clubs (and concerts in theatres etc.) as well as doing floor spots, joining in sessions and singarounds at other clubs. I know plenty of people in the first category "only want to listen" who are happy to support clubs week in out (at concert type venues and singarounds/sessions/locals nights), but they don't perform (except perhaps singing along with choruses, etc.) - maybe they aren't talented enough, or are too shy, or whatever. That's OK, it's what they are happy doing and we need them.

But I find it difficult to imagine why anyone would be in the third category, who only want to perform but not listen. It just seems strange to me, but as people have said above, maybe these are people with big egos who don't think anyone else could be worth listening to. But if they really are that good, why aren't they doing gigs in the concert clubs? And I assume they must write all their own material too.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: breezy
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 05:27 AM

who needs them?

Folk artistes and those of us who wish to hear those who probably write them.

those who wish to earn a crust.

Folk music is alive and new songs continue to emerge, its a question of separating the wheat from the chaff.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 05:32 AM

I quite often don't go to my local club on guest nights because I know I will have to sit through two long sets of the same old stuff from the residents, before and after the interval, delaying the guest that I want to see and making every evening flag. The local acts have their place, and I don't mind seeing them once in a while, but not many of them seem to bother to learn any new material to warrant a regular slot. It seems unfair on the guest act and a bit of an endurance trial for the audience.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: Hovering Bob
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 05:39 AM

I have to admit to leaning towards clubs on their singer/open nights and thinking twice about going on their guest nights. Admittedly I'm also constrained by having to manage my fatigue levels but have dioscovered that I'll make more effort to go to a club when they haven't a guest. I prefer the entertainment on the less formal evenings.
Having said that, there are some guests that I will always make a point of seeing and I am very fortunate in the quality of floor singers at the clubs to which I usually frequent.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 07:45 AM

GUEST wrote: "I quite often don't go to my local club on guest nights because I know I will have to sit through two long sets of the same old stuff from the residents, before and after the interval, delaying the guest that I want to see and making every evening flag. The local acts have their place, and I don't mind seeing them once in a while, but not many of them seem to bother to learn any new material to warrant a regular slot. It seems unfair on the guest act and a bit of an endurance trial for the audience."

I agree that it's poor when the resident singers keep doing the same stuff. Whenever I do a support or floor spot I always try to do stuff I've never done before at that venue, or at least not for a long time. The only exception is the rare occasion when I get a request! At any rate, I like to include a couple of 'new' songs each time, and ring the changes a bit. As I also am a member of the audience on occasion, I know how boring it is when you get the same stuff week in, week out. I also try to vary the material at sessions. It's good for me as well as less boring for everyone else, as I feel I'm constantly learning new songs or tunes and improving my repertoire, and it keeps me on my toes.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 07:45 AM

Hi yo lot
I have been attending a local club run by one Villan.
is every fortnight on a friday and is basically a concert style night only £3 to get in.
For the money you get to see four hand picked local(ish bands who each do a 25 minute floorspot,and a main guest usualy someone doing th circuit who is a "Name£.
This leads to a full and entertaining evening witha great variety in style and types of music.
It is great.
There IS no a concet style Night occassionaly on a Saturday with a very good guest artiste and then a singaroung aftewaerds for those that want it
This also is great value for money and very entertaining.
The only reason I leave early from any event at the Market Raisen Folk Club,is if sometimes having shift to cover at midnight.
I suppose there are genuine reasons for some to leave early sometimes.
But I know it is noticed by the floorspot acts and is a bit mean to only stay long enough to play or watch your mates play innit?
Also tips on clearing room after drunken singaround put Tim the Twangler on last and tell him to do two or three at once romm empties as if by magic!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: Rasener
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 08:15 AM

Thanks for the nice comments Tim. What is it your after :-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: Greg B
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 09:18 AM

Something which hasn't been brought up here is a bit of individual
self-policing.

What I'm saying here is that individuals really ought to set
standards for their 'bits' which don't tend to drive others
out the door.

How often do we see someone who's just decided to learn a song
pull out a crumpled hunk of paper and subject any and all to
something which would have frightened the cat back home had
they done it in the proper place for that stage of preparation,
that is, their living room?

Even if it is 25 of your closest friends, you ought not to
subject them to a song where you have to read from the lyrics
and fish around for the key (each verse). For if you do, you're
simply not bringing them anything like your best.

And I don't think it's so much a matter of whether the person
is a particularly good singer or not...regardless of innate
abilities, each individual ought to respect the audience and
the material well enough to have learned and developed the
bloody song before subjecting others to it.

On the odd occasion where you get a run of these types, the
evening does hit the skids and people (rightfully, I think)
book for the exits.

I believe clubs would do well to have some sort of flyer,
discretely placed at the back, which gives the otherwise
uneducated about how to be a considerate participant and
how to prepare material in such a way as it won't cause
the same reaction as a stink bomb set alight at the front.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 10:40 AM

Go back a couple of centuries and you would find the men who had been harvesting gathering in the barn to sup loads of ale, get drunk and sing whilst they were doing it. Individuals would sing, groups of men would sing. The same thing happened on ships of the line both whilst the men were working and whilst they were 'below'. I am sure there were many other 'venues' where these things seemed to happen naturally. We are now in an age where everything seems to have a 'need' to be organised and formal or semi formal. We all have a choice about the places we attend and the kind of music we like. I enjoy attending two different types of Folk club regularly...one the concert style where all is organised and usually well (Thanks to the VILLAN) at Faldingworth and the other which is a singaround for the most part with the occasional guest. I occasionally attend others which are different again. Find a club or clubs that you like...with or without guest performers....go to them...enjoy yourself...and others......and stop the griping! If you don't like a place...stay away...if you do...go.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: Sooz
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 10:50 AM

Well said

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 11:07 AM

If only it was so simple, Mike! I've read many threads here, and spoken to many club organisers who seem genuinely perplexed about how best to go about keeping their clubs happy and prosperous. In some areas there are now no clubs for scores of miles, and in others only one - so many punters can't choose as you suggest. Most people who run folk clubs (and they do need running, or sooner or later they just fizzle out - and it's hard relentless work with much effort that punters may not see or appreciate) feel a duty to keep the flame burning if they possibly can. Here and in other threads people have been asking what they can do to resolve the inevitable conflicts of interest that will always arise. Many (most) touring performers are members of a private web forum called Britfolk (which founded Radio Britfolk) and we've often discussed how we might help (well, it's in our interests that as many clubs flourish as possible - whatever their modus operandi). We meet all situations in our travels, and we can see that some things do tend to work better than others - but there are no hard and fast rules, and so much depends on the personalities involved, the venue (there may not be much choice) and various historical factors, that it's impossible to offer any valid feedback on 'best practice.' But its our livlihood so we are tempted to chip in if ever we think we can help.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 11:26 AM

Hi Tom. I guess you sort of summed up a problem in the first line of your reply when you said "spoken to many club organisers who seem genuinely perplexed about how best to go about keeping their clubs happy and prosperous". The kind of folk gathering I mentioned which took place a couple of centuries ago was not a commercial venture, it was to have fun when the work was done. Whilst we look for fame and fortune, whilst we look to how much we should charge for admission, whilst we decide how much we need to pay to get guests...whilst money or fame becomes more the focus than the Folk music itself, the problem will surely grow. Whilst as you say those 'organisers are genuinely perplexed about how best to go about keeping their clubs happy and prosperous', the problems will be inherent from generation to generation. Whilst I acknowledge the need to have clubs organised to some degree, we are drifting away from our Folkie roots into something with less meaning. In my honest opinion, a club could be arranged for a particular night, its existence made known by word of mouth, its function loosely organised and its development left to its own device. Part of the problem with some clubs or perhaps club organisers, is that they feel that need to organise....in actual fact to over-organise...which can and does drive some away. I am proud to be part of Gainsborough Folk Club which I feel has it 'bang to rights'...all credit to the organisers.
I think the only better alternative for me would be toinvest in a local barn, find a source for 'real ale' and do it like they did all those years ago...magic.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 12:15 PM

Agree whole-heartedly about Gainsborough, Mike - of course! :-) You may be right, but I fear the world has moved on and there are now many other activities that compete for people's time - TV not the least. If people don't Organise (and promote hard, especially) clubs can fail to fight their corner, and eventually fade from view. I've seen a good few close even in the short time I've been around (10 years). I guess my opinions are coloured by the very fact that I am new to the scene - and what I've found does not match the image that I carried in my mind since I originally frequented clubs back in the 70s. The lovely people at Britfolk (Pete Coe, actually) gave me a database of every club in the land about 5 years ago - and I've now spoken to (or tried to speak to) pretty much every one (and played at more than half). A score or more on the list were already dead when I started, and an other score or more have died since. Another score or more have given up booking guests, and perhaps the same number tell me they're struggling for one reason or another - and against this only a handful of new clubs have started (some of which closed again almost immediately).

Napper talks wistfully of the good old Dab Hand days, when you could do a whole week in JUST East Scotland, or Cornwall, or East Anglia, moving only 20 miles from club to club each day - with punters coming to gigs on consecutive nights and the Organisers collaborating to help arrange tours. Now it's more of a free-for-all - and sometimes we have to drive for four or more hours between gigs. And then when we get there, occasionally, even now, the place is almost empty (okay, okay - our fault for not being better players and more famous!), but it does make life hard - for us, and for the Organisers. It's partly an age thing - as frequently discussed elsewhere; as we, the folk club generation, get older we get more set in our ways, and less likely to try new things or adapt to a changing marketplace (and it IS a marketplace, even if only unpaid members attend - everything is). Maybe the days of making a living in the clubs are numbered (plenty think so) and maybe that's no bad thing, but the guest/floor-spot formula used to work so well, and it still does in many places - so with luck and a following wind enough clubs will survive to keep a few of us going for a little while longer. (At least till the lad leaves school and I can go back to Alderney)! Tom

(Strimmer's nearly ready btw).

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: Sooz
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 01:11 PM

Bet the grass is getting long!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: Rasener
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 01:22 PM

Mike
Whatever club one runs and whatever style they choose to use, you will always get people who refuse to go for one reason or another.

If you have a singalong, you don't need a lot of organisation, in the sense that people roll up and whoever there on the night gets to perform If you are lucky to be in an area where there are quite a few folkies who sing, dance, tell a joke etc etc, the singaround should survive, if run well. Gainsborough has all those capabilities.
However, when they run the Folk Festival, there is an awful lot of work has to go into it, to make it successful. Many people who go to the festival have no idea just how much organisation goes into it. If it is well run, it is normally because it has been well organised. Likewise it generally falls back on the few dedicated members to handle the burden of the work.

I have also enjoyed going to other clubs. That part is real nice cuase you can sit back and enjoy.

Sessions are a similar thing.

If you run a club that is concert style, you can only succeed with very good organisation and a lot of background work. Money becomes a big factor in survival. Likewise, if you book the wrong performers for the style of the club, your audience goes down and stays that way, bang you have to close it. By the same token if you have put a lot of effort in trying to get the right performers, you need to publicise and organise it well for it to be successful. After all, if you have put the effort in, why sit back and think it will run itself, because it won't.

I have to say that I have heard a lot of sarcastic comments said about the way I run my club, but at least I have the guts to get on and do it, and in all honesty, if somebody thinks they can do it better, then they can take the club over. Any takers - I guess not, because that is what we are all so good at in the UK, moaning and complaining and taking the piss behind other peoples backs and hoping that people fail.

Do you know what, it is easier not to be a club organiser and just roll up to other clubs and enjoy it.

At the end of the day, we are talking about the lively hood of full time performers, whose only source of income is through there singing. Either you support them, or they are lost forever. It is more serious than most folkies realise.

There are too many things going on in this day and age, which makes it so much more difficult to succeed. I have no pleasure having a full gig performer at the club, when I could lose my shirt if people don't turn up. That is why even more organisation has to go into it.

Whatever you think of any organiser that seemingly goes overboard about their club and tries to make it successful, without them, you ain't got folk clubs. And why is it that the people that do the least, complain the most.

Also there are people that have the need to be on stage at any folk club, and cannot listen. Nothing wrong with that, thats the way they are.

By the same token, you have performers who like to perform and see other people performing. Again nowt wrong in that.

You also have people who just prefer to listen. These and the listen and perform people are the most important people, for gigs. However they are not going to turn up if they think it is going to be crap and badly organised.

It is very easy to whinge and complain, but it is harder to get off your arse and do something that will help the folk world to survive.

So to go back to the people who say "Folk Club Guest Nights - who needs them" are just arseholes.

In the time I have been back in the folk world (3 years) I have had a great deal of pleasure watching all the people coming and playing at MRFC, and if I can say that I have done my part (even at the expense of my family) then I feel a better man for it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 01:26 PM

Is that a strimmer or,one of those new strummer efforts that seem to be appearing in Lincolnshire Folk clubs and perhaps further afield by now. Look forward to seeing you two lads again sometime soon Tom. Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Guest Nights - Who Needs 'em!!
From: BB
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 03:34 PM

I think there's another reason why guest performers are important. Hopefully, their expertise, their material or whatever helps to inspire local club performers to do what they do, or would like to do, better. It's easy to become stale, to sing the same old songs or play the same old tunes, to never reach for greater heights and ability if you only ever hear the same people week after week, who in turn sing the same old songs or play the same old tunes, and never reach for... And yes, you can get material from CDs, etc. but if those same people never go anywhere to get the CDs or never hear new people who are producing CDs, the whole thing turns in on itself and stagnates.

Now it may be said that there were no 'guests' in the tradition, but those traditional performers did hear people from outside the area, by travellers coming to their area, or from they themselves travelling outside it, and they picked up new tunes, songs, and even styles from those people. That's how we get so many versions of so many songs. And those chances to hear other performers and pick things up from them were valued.

It's true that a number of clubs are changing to just Singers' Nights, but unless those concerned take the opportunity to go around and hear other people, 'guests' or otherwise, those clubs have a tendency to eventually dwindle in numbers out of sheer boredom, thus struggling on with perhaps half-a-dozen people, no-one new being inspired to join them, until they disappear from sight and no-one even notices.

That's sad!

Barbara