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BS: the last dreadnought in existence
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Subject: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: beardedbruce Date: 21 Jun 06 - 04:29 PM http://www.usstexasbb35.com/introduction.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Don Firth Date: 21 Jun 06 - 04:40 PM Holding one of those things with a neck strap will really build up you muscles. . . . Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jun 06 - 04:46 PM Neat! She's a typical dreadnought of the general WWI style. There were a great many such ships, but they're all gone now except for the Texas. In their time they were considered the ultimate weapon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: GUEST,petr Date: 21 Jun 06 - 04:48 PM veteran of vera cruz! interesting bit of history.. thats when the idiot Woodrow Wilson (campaign slogan - 'he kept us out of the war') ordered the bombardment of Vera Cruz without notifying congress, essentially over a non-incident. (Wilson didnt like Huerta, and after some US soldiers were arrested - and later released with apology, he wanted the Mexicans to give a 21 gun salute to the US flag which they refused) so because the Mexicans refused a humiliating demand (saluting the US flag on their soil) Wilson ordered Vera Cruz to be bombarded.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jun 06 - 05:03 PM Yes, one more spectacular example of why the USA is not terribly popular in Latin America and elsewhere. "Shock and Awe - the 1914 version" |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Bunnahabhain Date: 21 Jun 06 - 05:38 PM The British went one step better at some point. Not only did they shell the Leaders palace of some African country, and effectively conquer the area in about half an hour, they then sent a bill for the shells used to the new leaders of the latest part of the British Empire.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jun 06 - 07:07 PM Sweet. How loved they must have been by the locals, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Rapparee Date: 21 Jun 06 - 10:00 PM Come, get out of the way, boys Quick, get out of the way You'd better watch what you say, boys Better watch what you say We've rammed in your harbor and tied to your port And our pistols are hungry and our tempers are short So bring your daughters around to the port 'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys We're the Cops of the World. We pick and choose as please, boys Pick and choose as please You'd best get down on your knees, boys Best get down on your knees We're hairy and horny and ready to shack And we don't care if you're yellow or black Just take off your clothes and lay down on your back 'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys We're the Cops of the World. Our boots are needing a shine, boys Boots are needing a shine But our Coca-Cola is fine, boys Coca-Cola is fine We've got to protect all our citizens fair So we'll send a battalion for everyone there And maybe we'll leave in a couple of years 'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys We're the Cops of the World. And dump the reds in a pile, boys Dump the reds in a pile You'd better wipe off that smile, boys Better wipe off that smile We'll spit through the streets of the cities we wreck And we'll find you a leader that you can't elect Those treaties we signed were a pain in the neck 'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys We're the Cops of the World. And clean the johns with a rag, boys Clean the johns with a rag If you like you can use your flag, boys If you like you can use your flag We've got too much money we're looking for toys And guns will be guns and boys will be boys But we'll gladly pay for all we destroy 'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys We're the Cops of the World. Please stay off of the grass, boys Please stay off of the grass Here's a kick in the ass, boys Here's a kick in the ass We'll smash down your doors, we don't bother to knock We've done it before, so why all the shock We're the biggest and the toughest kids on the block And we're the Cops of the World, boys We're the Cops of the World. And when we butchered your sons, boys When we butchered your sons Have a stick of our gum, boys Have a stick of our bubble gum We own half the world, oh say can you see And the name for our profits is democracy So, like it or not, you will have to be free 'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys We're the Cops of the World. -- Phil Ochs Isn't it interesting that the role of "Cops of the World" changes with the Superpower of the moment? Right now it's the US; before it was England; before that it was Rome.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Jun 06 - 10:39 PM Yup. And for awhile it was Spain, and for a while it was France, and it was the Soviets too in their neck of the woods. There's always a big bully or two on the block. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Ebbie Date: 21 Jun 06 - 11:26 PM ha. My first thought was that this thread belonged above the line. My second thought was that mine can't be the only Dreadnaught in existence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Hrothgar Date: 22 Jun 06 - 06:38 AM The last steam driven battleship was the former German ship Goeben, which played a major part in getting Turkey into the First World War on the side of the Germans when she was given to the Turks. Not de-commissioned until 1976, I think. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Les from Hull Date: 22 Jun 06 - 08:39 AM Of course it all depends on how you define a 'dreadnaught'. By the definition used at the time Texas would be a 'super-dreadnaught' (with larger than 11 or 12 inch guns). But this definition could also apply to other US preserved battlships (which of course were/are also steam driven). Yavuz (ex Goeben) was a battleecruiser battlecruiser Yavuz |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jun 06 - 09:28 AM The largest number of dreadnoughts were built by England at the height of British naval sumpremacy. The most extraordinary looking dreadnoughts of all time were probably the Japanese Fuso and Yamashiro, with their towering pagoda bridges. Battleship Fuso |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: beardedbruce Date: 22 Jun 06 - 09:36 AM LH- The Montana Class were never completed, but... The guns were changed to 18" ( Guns in VA now, after testing there. http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/usnshtp/bb/bb67.htm but the first "big-gun only " ships were the Monitor, and later of that class. (2-4 guns only, though) |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: beardedbruce Date: 22 Jun 06 - 09:57 AM http://www.bluejacket.com/usn/images/sp/lm/monitor9_florida_c1903.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Florida_(BM-9) |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: beardedbruce Date: 22 Jun 06 - 10:17 AM http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/monitors/agamenti.htm note the armament.... FOUR - 15"! |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: beardedbruce Date: 22 Jun 06 - 10:34 AM http://www.steelnavy.com/features.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: GUEST,mack/misophist Date: 22 Jun 06 - 10:49 AM Calling it a ship is a bit of a misnomer. When I visited, it was set in the middle of an asphalt lot, far from any water. It was once a ship. No longer. It remains in commission only as a courtesy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jun 06 - 11:10 AM Let's be glad of such courtesies. There are only a handful of old ships left, such as the British 3-decker "Victory", the cruiser "Belfast", the "Texas", the "Constituion", the "Charles W. Morgan", Japan's "Mikasa".... They are reminders of another time which should not be forgotten, and it's good to have them still around to remind us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: beardedbruce Date: 22 Jun 06 - 11:16 AM and the Kon-Tiki, the Viking ships, and polar exploration vessel preserved in Oslo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Rapparee Date: 22 Jun 06 - 11:31 AM And don't forget Constellation in Baltimore harbor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Les from Hull Date: 22 Jun 06 - 11:35 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Les from Hull Date: 22 Jun 06 - 11:38 AM another vessel from the same era And if you search the database for 'LV 12' or 'Spurn' you'll be able to see what I can see from my living room window! |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: beardedbruce Date: 22 Jun 06 - 01:15 PM http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/preserve.htm http://www.hnsa.org/index.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: beardedbruce Date: 22 Jun 06 - 01:22 PM and to include wrecks and still-working vessals... |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: beardedbruce Date: 22 Jun 06 - 01:23 PM and in Canada... |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 22 Jun 06 - 01:46 PM A visit to the battleship Texas is well-worth while. Everything is there, from the hammocks of the sailors to the sterling silver in the officers mess. Reserve for a hard hat tour that covers areas barred to the casual visitor. The ship is anchored in Buffalo Bayou in San Jacinto Battleground Park adjacent to the Houston Ship Canal. It is interesting to watch the ships in the Canal, which seem to be sailing through the fields. When I first visited, the green grassed fields were grazed by cattle, at the time many black Angus, but many of these fields are being swallowed by industrial expansion. The odors from the giant chemical plants are now omnipresent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: beardedbruce Date: 22 Jun 06 - 04:23 PM viking ships Fram been there, done that- want to go back! |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Santa Date: 22 Jun 06 - 06:03 PM Some years ago (OK, 25!) I was on a cruise ship sailing into Poros. Looking out at some very nice rich men's toys, I looked up and saw a grey fighting top of a dreadnought! The ship was just sitting there - afloat and apparently still in service. OK, as I found out later, it was "only" a 1912 armoured cruiser. Nominally flagship of the Greek Navy, and moored at the Greek Naval Academy. It is now in the Pireaus harbour together with the trireme. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: beardedbruce Date: 23 Jun 06 - 09:12 AM Protected Cruiser Olympia Greek Armored Cruiser |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Bunnahabhain Date: 23 Jun 06 - 10:29 AM Two more important ship types can be found only Here . The worlds oldest in commision ship, and the fist real iron warship. HMS Warrior and HMS Victory. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: beardedbruce Date: 23 Jun 06 - 10:54 AM "HMS Victory is the only remaining 18th Century warship anywhere in the world and is the oldest serving Royal Navy ship in commission - she remains a fully commissioned ship with her own complement of officers and crew and is the flagship of the Second Sea Lord, Commander in Chief Naval Home Command. HMS Victory was ordered in 1758, the same year in which Horatio Nelson was born at Burnham Thorpe in Norfolk. The keel was laid at Chatham Dockyard in 1759 with Victory being completed six years later. Her construction took 27 miles of rigging, 4 acres of sails and required 2,000 mature trees. She cost £63,176 to build. HMS Victory saw almost constant service from 1778 to 1812." ....................................................... ""Old Ironsides" is the oldest commissioned warship afloat. USS Constitution is one of six ships ordered by President George Washington to protect America's growing maritime interests in the 1790s. Constitution soon earned widespread renown for her ability to punish French privateers in the Caribbean and thwart the Barbary pirates in the Mediterranean. The ship's greatest glory came during the War of 1812 when she defeated four British frigates. Manned by an active duty U.S. Navy crew, Constitution is open year round for free public tours in the Charlestown Navy Yard. In the summer of 1997, Constitution sailed under her own canvas for the first time in 116 years" .................................................................. "Continental gunboat Philadelphia is the only surviving gunboat built and manned by American Forces during the Revolutionary War. Part of a hastily constructed fleet, she is one of 15 small craft with which Benedict Arnold fought 29 British vessels off Valcour Island in Lake Champlain in October 1776. " OK, Victory IS the oldest, but not the only 18th century warship. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Les from Hull Date: 23 Jun 06 - 05:26 PM 'defeated four frigates'? I suppose this means counting Cyanne and Levant as frigates, which they weren't. Or are they counting the two she ran away from (quite sensibly - I'm not implying cowardice, any RN captain would have done the same in similar circumstances). |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Jun 06 - 05:55 PM I know of only 2 frigates the Constitution defeated in battle. I believe they were the "Guerriere" and the "Java". The "Guerriere" had a French name, since the British had a habit of sometimes naming ships after enemy ships that had put up a very memorable fight against British warships...or in other cases retaining the names of captured enemy vessels which went into British service. Here's a website with some fine painting of the engagement between Constitution and Guerriere. the battle |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Charley Noble Date: 23 Jun 06 - 10:57 PM The HMS Cyane was rated a strong corvette, 34 guns, and the HMS Levant a heavily armed sloop of war, 21 guns. Together they were still not a match for the Constitution although they put up a brave fight. The battle itself took place more than two months after the official end of the War of 1812 but the contestants were not aware of that. Apparently, no one bother to check their e-mail or watch CNN! Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Les from Hull Date: 24 Jun 06 - 08:44 AM The Royal Navy never refered to such ships as corvettes at this time, though the US and French navies did. Cyane was a sixth-rate or 'post-ship' and not a particularily strong one, armed as she was with carronades (+ 2 long nine pounder bowchasers), totalling 33 guns if you include the launch carronade. Captain Stewart of the Constitution reportedly had her repainted as 36 gun frigate before he brought her in. Levant (again carronade armed) was recaptured. This was a brave action by two RN ships who were trying to protect a convoy (who they were not in company with, but was in the offing). With their short range guns it was somewhat similar to the action of the armed merchant cruiser HMS Jervis Bay with the 'pocket battleship' Admiral Scheer. Constitution is a great ship with a great history. There shouldn't be this attempt to enhance it, because to those with access to accurate information it only serves to diminish it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: beardedbruce Date: 24 Jun 06 - 09:06 AM Constitution Frigate: dp. 2,200 t.; l. (b.p.) 175'; b. 43'6"; depth (in hold). 14'3"; speed. 13 k.; complement. 450; armament. 28 24-pdr., 10 12-pdr. http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/frigates/constitu.htm My quotes have some factual errors I was not aware of, it appears- but that is a problem with most web sites. "Cyane was a sailing frigate built in 1796 at Frinsbury, England, for the Royal Navy. She was captured with HMS Levant 20 February 1815 by Constitution, after a 40-minute night engagement off Madeira." Displacement: 539 tons Length: 110 ft (34 m) Beam: 31.5 ft (9.6 m) Depth: 8 ft (2.4 m) Complement: 180 officers and men Armament: 4 x 12 pounders (5 kg), 20 x 32 pounder (15 kg) carronades, 8 x 18 pounder (8 kg) carronades http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Cyane_%281796%29 |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Les from Hull Date: 24 Jun 06 - 10:32 AM Actually the HMS Cyane in question was in built 1805 to replace the one built in 1796. Referring to 'displacement' is ridiculous as this type of measurement wasn't in use until many years later. She was 537 2/94 (two ninety-forths) tons 'builder's measurement'. The 1796 Cyane was an 18-gun ship sloop, of 420 tons. (The Sailing Navy List, David Lyons, published by Conway, 1993 ISBN 0-85177-615-X) The armament of Constitution varied slightly throughout her active career, but by the time of the 1812 War she usually carried 30 long 24 pounders and 20 to 24 32 pounder carronades. It's a shame that these websites take their information from one source, without any checking, and then state their case so authoritively. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Jun 06 - 12:52 PM The Constitution class of frigates were the most formidable ships of their class in the world at that time. The American Navy, being a much smaller fleet than the British, felt they had to build individually superior ships to have a fighting chance, and they did so to great effect. The Germans and Japanese later went by the same theory, building various ships that were remarkably well armoured and (in the case of the Japanese) heavily armed as compared to their Allied countrerparts in the American and British navies. Japanese heavy cruisers of the 2nd World War, for example, were extremely formidable vessels, and packed a deadly punch with their "long lance" torpedoes and their heavy gun armament. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Les from Hull Date: 24 Jun 06 - 01:35 PM True LH. Eventually the RN had to build similar ships (such as Newcastle and Leander and other large frigates mounting 24 pounder guns, and in the meantime issue orders that single British frigates should not engage these large super-frigates. The Washington Naval Treaty had limited cruiser to 10,000 tons standard displacement. The German Panzerschiffe (what we called 'pocket battleships') displaced 11,700 tons, the later Hipper class 14,050 then 16,974 tons. The 1924 Japanes Nachi class were 10,980 tons. Light cruisers of the Mogami class (originally 8,500 tons with 15 6.1" guns) were refitted after the Treaty ran out and came out as 12,400 tons cruisers with 10 - 8" guns). The Italian cruiseers were somewhat 'overweight' as well. Speaking of Dreadnoughts, as we were, might I may a point for 2 strange-looking RN ships, Nelson and Rodney. Their designs date from 1923, and were limited to 35,000 tons by the Washington Treaty. To save weight they grouped the main armament all forward, with the engines further aft. To civilians they were known as the 'Cherry Tree class' (cut down by Washington - geddit?) but in the service they were called Nelsol and Rodnol, from the practice of giving RN engines aft fleet oilers names ending in -ol. It was Rodney that effectively sunk the Bismark, although that ship wasn't going anywhere after aircraft torpedo damage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Les from Hull Date: 24 Jun 06 - 01:36 PM picture of Rodney |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Jun 06 - 02:14 PM Nelson and Rodney were very peculiar looking ships. They looked like part of the back end was missing, like on a Manx cat! ;-) The three huge turrets up forward were impressive, though. I remember buying the Airfix 1/600 scale kit of the Rodney way back in the 60's and building it. The Bismark (eight 15" guns) got pounded into a wreck at the final battle by King George V (ten 14" guns) and Rodney (nine 16" guns). Bismark's return fire was accurate at the start of the battle. The German ship picked the Rodney as their main target and managed to straddle her with their third salvo, but hits to Bismark almost immediately after that rapidly reduced the efficiency of the German fire, and they ended up scoring no heavy caliber hits on either the Rodney or the King George V, while receiving literally hundreds of hits in return...many of those fired at what amounted to pointblank range, after the Bismark's main guns had all been silenced. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Les from Hull Date: 24 Jun 06 - 04:42 PM If you fancy any more Airfix kits, their head office is in Hull about 3 miles from where I'm typng this! |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: The Walrus Date: 25 Jun 06 - 07:07 AM Returning to whether CYANE was a frigate or not: "...CYANE,22, (1806 Topsham. Captured 1815) She was rated a 22-gun ship and mounted that number of long 9-pounders on her main deck. However she was also armed with eight 18-pounders and two long 6-pounders on her quarter-deck and forecastle...." (from: SHIPS OF THE OLD NAVY : A history of the sailing ships of the Royal Navy by Michael Phillips http://www.cronab.demon.co.uk/INTRO.HTM ). As all the listed commanding officers are shown as "Captain", and, as the a frigate was the smallest Captain's command, I would suggest that Cyane was indeed a frigate. W |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Les from Hull Date: 25 Jun 06 - 09:02 AM At this time nothing smaller than a 28 gun ship was ever called a 'frigate', even 28 gun ships were rare and not used as such. So, not a frigate, never a frigate. All sixth-rates had a 'post' or full captain in command. That is why the ones too small to be called a frigate were called 'post ships'. The term corvette (borrowed from the French) was later used for these ships. The armaament you give is wrong too. Although designed for 9 pounder guns (another 'clue', frigates don't have 9 pounders) by 1815 she had been re-armed with carronades on the upper deck (if indeed she ever carried 9 pounders). These Banterer Class sixth rates were built with a quarterdeck which made them look like a frigate, but at 537 tons were about half the burden of a contemporary 'heavy' frigate and about a third of Constitution's. Sorry Walrus old mate, but this is my 'specialist subject'. Les |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Les from Hull Date: 25 Jun 06 - 10:17 AM To be fair, Walrus, perhaps you don't know that you are entering into one of the longest-running arguments in Naval History. As I mentioned earlier, Captain Stewart of Constitution reportedly had Cyane repainted to represent a 36 gun frigate (possibly painting extra gunports - I have no details about this). Cyane should have been recaptured at the same time as Levant, but there was some sort of cock-up over signals. When Cyane was taken into New York, The Boston Gazette reported that the Cyane was 'frigate-built' (three masts, guns on upper deck and a quarterdeck). Incidently, this expression was also used for merchant ships (cf The Gallant Frigate Amphritite). The Gazette also said (wrongly) that Cyane was the same size as the American frigate Essex, captured by the British earlier in the war although Essex was nearly over 300 tons bigger. The problem was made worse by the US Authorities referring to Cyane as a frigate, when if they had built her she would have been a corvette or possibly even a sloop. All this had started earlier when the British press had sought to excuse the loss of three frigate to the larger American frigates. During the war the American press made some ridiculous claims which William James sought to refute in his book 'Naval Occurrences of the War of 1812' published in 1817 but still available from Coway Publishing, UK. In seeking redress for some of the things said James probably goes too far. Much later, in 1882 an important book was published in the USA 'The Naval War of 1812'. It's author? None other than Theodore Roosevelt, later President of the USA. He sought to refute some of James' claims. He describes Cyane as a 'frigate-built ship corvette'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Daithi Date: 26 Jun 06 - 06:03 AM "There are only two kinds of seagoing craft. Submarines and Targets." Best wishes from 20,000 leagues below! D |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: manitas_at_work Date: 26 Jun 06 - 08:10 AM By coincidence I've just spent the weekend in Portsmouth. The Victory has a lot more than 3 decks. The Warrior was so large for it's time (1860) that it never needed to fire a shot in anger! We saw the Newcastle (and a few others) waiting to be sold to the Chilean navy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Les from Hull Date: 26 Jun 06 - 09:16 AM The rule is to count the decks with complete rows of guns on them (unlike the forecasle and quarterdeck which have some guns). It should be easier on a frigate which only has one complete row of guns. Of course, it just so happens that they are on the 'upper deck'. The deck below, where the crew are berthed, has no guns but is called the 'gundeck'. I was a bit disappointed when I visited Victory. As it is a RN ship in commission you get a guided tour from some serving sailor who just gives you the (often inaccurate) yarns of the sailing navy that have come down to the present navy. My guide was a Leading Seaman, Electronics Warfare Branch! At least there's that raised brass plaque that marks the place 'where Nelson fell', and you can do the joke about 'I'm not surprised, I nearly tripped over it myself'! On the other hand, visiting Warrior was a treat. The guides are highly professional, dressed as petty officers of the period, and you get to wander about at leisure. The guides are placed at specific points and well able to answer questions about the ship and its restoration. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Charley Noble Date: 26 Jun 06 - 09:18 AM I'm sure the "frigate" Surprise could have blown the Constitution out of the water if Capt. Aubrey had ever secured the esteemed weather gage. It's true that the Levant was recaptured after a British squadron of two 50-gun ships and a 40-gun ship cornered her in the Portugal port of Porto Praya in the Cape Verde Islands. In the process the British managed to level a good part of the town with their cannon fire, which the Portugese considered a violation of port neutrality. The British squadron commander, Sir George Collier, apparently never lived down the fact that the Constitution escaped with the Cyane; he committed suicide some ten years later. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Les from Hull Date: 26 Jun 06 - 10:33 AM I don't think that Aubrey would have been so stupid as to attempt to take on Constitution, but he was to be appointed to the (ficitious) frigate Blackwater at the time. This I take to be a 24pdr frigate of the 'revived Endymion class', three of which were named after rivers (Blackwater is an Irish river). That would have been interesting. When Endymion fought USS President it was an interesting battle. Enydmion was the leading ship of a strong British squadron that President (Commodore Decatur) was trying to escape from. The fire directed at President's hull killed and wounded over 100 of the 450 crew, dismounting several guns. The President fired mainly at the Endymion's rigging doing little damage to her hull, but requiring much repair to her sails. It being dark when the President hoisted a lantern, Endymion thought she had surrendered and stopped firing, although she was in a raking position on President's stern. Decatur claimed that he had beaten Endymion, although the relative damage to each ship shows that he had decidedly not! As Endymion repaired the damage to her rigging President attempted to escape, but was caught by the rest of the squadron. I would be interested in your source for the damage at Porto Praya, Charley, but if it's Captain Stewart of the Constitution, you'd better include a virtual pinch of salt, as he and the truth don't even seem to have been on nodding terms. According to an American source, the Portuguese fired at the Americans, and as far I know the British never fired at anyone. Les |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Bunnahabhain Date: 26 Jun 06 - 10:54 AM The Blackwater is also the river the Essex port of Maldon is on. It is now the site of a very silly race through the mudflats. Blackwater is never going to be an uncommon name. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Barry Finn Date: 26 Jun 06 - 04:15 PM Hi Bunnahabhain Sorry, the oldest ship which is still in commision is the USS Constitution (Old Ironsides). She still remains in service & she is 208 years old. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Les from Hull Date: 26 Jun 06 - 04:58 PM Actually, as mentioned earlier, it's HMS Victory, although it's in a dry dock. I believe that USS Constitution is the oldest in commission and still afloat. Of course old wooden ships like these are a bit like those very old hammers that have had both the head and the shaft replaced several times! |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: beardedbruce Date: 26 Jun 06 - 05:01 PM 'HMS Victory was ordered in 1758, the same year in which Horatio Nelson was born at Burnham Thorpe in Norfolk. The keel was laid at Chatham Dockyard in 1759 with Victory being completed six years later." Sorry, Barry. I had to admit that Victory is a little older than Constitution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Charley Noble Date: 26 Jun 06 - 08:16 PM Les- Why should I divulge my sources when I was there! LOL My understanding is that the 120 British prisoners paroled ashore rudely captured the Portugese fort and blasted away at the Levant, along with the Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Charley Noble Date: 27 Jun 06 - 07:15 PM Looks like this thread is in danger of sinking... Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Little Hawk Date: 27 Jun 06 - 08:03 PM Some scoundrel must have opened the seacocks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: beardedbruce Date: 06 Apr 07 - 01:33 PM I've raised this thread from the depths, to see what might be done with it. With the present number of ships, the Royal Navy needs all the hulls it can find! |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: John Hardly Date: 06 Apr 07 - 02:04 PM dreadnote -- anything above the 14th fret, no cutaway. dreadnod -- what you hope the audience won't be doing during your (boring?) solo. dreadknob -- if you don't watch where you're walking. dredgenought -- any guitar made from wood salvaged from swamp bottoms. drakenought -- gotta love the drake. Nick's main axe. dreadnog -- only to be played at holiday time. Plays too sweet for my taste. dreadknot -- this guitar has a VERY complex system of tuning pegs and bridge pins and it's very hard to restring and keep the strings in order. dreadgnat -- you're in the middle of your long-anticipated big solo, outdoor concert/festival, and all of a sudden that tickle at the end of your nose and no free hand to swat! Li'l anGEL. dreadneph -- your sister's freeloading son. Dreadnet -- 60's police drama starring Sgt. Joe Friday. Just the facts, ma'm. Just the facts. Dreadnut -- ever notice just how many brazil nuts there ARE in a can of mixed nuts? |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Charley Noble Date: 06 Apr 07 - 09:30 PM Tis true that this thread had sadly drifted from its original topic of "dreadnaughts." I do believe that the term "dreadknots" is used to describe a particular hair style originating from the island nation of Jaimaica by the Ras Tafaries in the 1960's. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: EBarnacle Date: 06 Apr 07 - 09:50 PM Ye left out dreadlocks! We seem to have also forgotten New Jersey, Missouri and Iowa. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Charley Noble Date: 07 Apr 07 - 10:24 AM Eric- You're correct. It's "dreadlocks", not "dreadknots." This is exactly the kind of question that we don't want to have to split hairs over. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: John Hardly Date: 07 Apr 07 - 10:41 AM dreadknot |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Apr 07 - 03:54 PM Dreadnought means "fear nothing". This is presumably a characteristic which is shared by large body Martin guitars and battleships. Battleships are pretty much obsolete by now, but the Martin guitar soldiers on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: kendall Date: 08 Apr 07 - 08:22 AM Woodrow Wilson was arrogant and bull headed but an idiot? Hardly. He did keep us out of war, that is, until the Germans sunk the Lusitania, then there was such a demand from the people he had no choice but to declare war. Furthermore, if congress had listened to him, they would have agreed to his plan for the formation of a League of nations. But, thanks to Senator Lodge and other republicans who hated Wilson, they failed to act, and WW2 was the result. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: beardedbruce Date: 09 Apr 07 - 02:40 PM Dreadnought |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Apr 07 - 02:51 PM The Lusitania was most likely carrying a large quantity of contraband munitions, which is why the Germans sank it, and they had issued warnings of the danger to Americans prior to its sailing. It may have been the detonation of those munitions which caused the ship to sink so rapidly. I very much doubt that the USA genuinely entered WWI because of the sinking of the Lusitania, but rather that the incident was handily used to help shape public opinion around about the time the politicians had decided that it was expedient to get America involved...for various large financial and strategic reasons. The usual stuff, in other words. Realpolitik. Nothing is as great an excuse for killing a few hundred thousand more people as the loss of a much smaller number of people on a ship. It's been done again and again. It's something the ordinary guy in the street can understand...and get danged upset about. Governments deal in colder calculations than that. However, Kendall, I agree that Wilson had some good points, as politicians go. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Les from Hull Date: 10 Apr 07 - 04:16 PM If the USA entered the Great War because of the Lusitania, they certainly took some time making their minds up about it! She was torpedoed on 7 May 1915. She was identified by the Germans as possibly an Armed Merchant Cruiser (she was on a list of possible AMCs published by the Admiralty) but she was never used as such. She was carrying contraband war materials - rifle ammunition and unfilled shells, but these are unlikely to cause a secondary explosion. The various causes of a second explosion are well covered in Diana Preston's book 'Wilful murder - the sinking of Lusitania' an excellent book on the subject. Dives on the wreck have shown no evidence of this cargo exploding. Back to Dreadnoughts. The name Dreadnought was one of the names used regularly by the Royal Navy for one of its major units. It became available when the previous bearer of the name was put into reserve in 1905. The next name used for a battleship was Bellerophon, and I'm sure that would have given us a lot more trouble discussing 'Bellerophon Battleships'! Ships with that name were informally known as Billy Ruffian. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Teribus Date: 10 Apr 07 - 05:22 PM The Lusitania was carrying small arms ammunition which is incapable of "exploding". Two other theories exist for the secondary explosion: Ballard's opinion that coal dust sank the Lusitania, she was running 'light' when she was torpedoed, the torpedo hit her and caused a large cloud coal dust to form. It was that that exploded when ignited by a broken electical light fitting and accounted for the second explosion. Others think that the second explosion was caused by ruptured high pressure steam lines. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Apr 07 - 06:38 PM Yes, Teribus, I'm aware of those 2 theories as well as the theory about explosives being aboard. They're all definitely worth considering. At any rate, it appears that the ship was carrying war materials, therefore the Germans felt that it was a legitimate target. The German captain of the U-boat was reportedly pretty horrified as he watched the unexpected rapidity of the sinking, the spilling of lifeboats, and the deaths of so many panicked passengers. War, as always, is a miserable business. People do it because they think they must...under the circumstances. In so doing, they often lose a very big part of their soul in the process. As you point out, Les, there was a very big time lag between the Lusitania's sinking and the US entry into the war, so I hardly think it was the decisive reason behind the USA decision to go to war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Teribus Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:04 AM While Walther Schwieger, the Captain of U-20, may have felt that the Lusitania was a legitimate target. Whether she was carrying contraband military cargo, or not, was irrelevant as under international law, the Germans could sink the ship only after guaranteeing the safety of all the passengers. That they did not do, and the loss of life was great, hence the uproar and subsequent consequences for Germany. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Les from Hull Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:15 PM Lusitania would have been a legitimate target if she was commissioned as an armed merchant cruiser. This is why the suggestion was made by the Germans that she had been so armed while in New York. Many of the faster liners were used, as indeed were liners used as commerce raiders by Germany. In the event the larger liners weren't used as AMCs because they were too expensive to run with their large crews and vast coal consumption. The warnings issued by Germany about the Lusitania and the information from German agents prove that the Germans knew that Lusitania was in service as a passenger liner. The uproar that this sinking caused was similar to that caused by the shelling of English towns by battlecruisers and the bombing by Zeppelins, that the Germans were indiscriminately targeting civilians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: InOBU Date: 11 Apr 07 - 07:04 PM Churchil had also ordered any British passenger ship challenged by a U-boat on the surface to attempt to ram the boat, or the captain would be tried. Several U-Boats were almost ramed just before the Lusitania was sunk, Schwieger was aware of this, and intended to cripple her, and then suface to order her abandoned before sinking her. So, Churchill has to bear some responcibility for unrestricted submarine warfare. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Apr 07 - 07:33 PM Yes, he only fired one torpedo at the Lusitania, which was a very big ship. It seems likely that he was intending to cripple the ship, and I think he was astounded by the catastrophic damage that resulted from that single torpedo hit. In any case, quibbling about the niceties of submarine warfare and using those as the excuse to join in a war is a bit facile. In WWII the USA's submarine campaign against Japan went as far as sinking anything Japanese that floated, including the miserable sampans of peasant fishermen along Japan's coast, men who were simply out trying to feed themselves and their families. No consideration was given toward providing warnings or assisting survivors, in fact they were often machine-gunned in the water after their boats sank. Utter and absolute brutality was the rule of the day...as had also been the case with a great many Japanese attacks on Allied personnel and civilians during the war. There were few scruples shown on either side. Accordingly, anyone who points the finger should probably note that there are 3 fingers pointing back at him when he does it. Whenever any nation goes to war with submarines, whose strength is stealth and sudden attack without warning, that nation always ends up waging unrestricted submarine warfare. The Germans in WWI were, in my opinion, not more evil in this fashion than other nations are inclined to be....they just happened to lose, that's all. Losers of wars are traditionally made to take the whole blame for everything that happened. That, in itself, is a gross injustice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: GUEST,petr Date: 11 Apr 07 - 07:51 PM Wilson also liked to think he was appointed by God. that business with Mexico? bombarding Vera Cruz and killing people without notifying congress . made the world safe for democracy. Most Europeans dont regard WWI as a war about democracy. (and of course the phrase democracy didnt apply to south america) |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Apr 07 - 07:59 PM It was a war about imperial power. Democracy had nothing to do with it. Several great empires were battling for supremacy, and in the end those who had less industry and manpower lost. The entry of the USA into the conflict was the deciding factor in that calculation, as it was in WWII also. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: bubblyrat Date: 12 Apr 07 - 07:53 AM Getting back to USS Constitution and the ships that she defeated. Whether or not they were frigates, sloops, corvettes, or whatever, is somewhat academic. My understanding of the situation has always been something along the following lines......At the time , the British navy were somewhat tight-fisted with regard to the provision of sufficient gunpowder to enable regular live-firing gun-drills for the gun crews, with the inevitable decline in efficiency.The US crews were not thus hampered, and were probably much more "handy" with their gunnery. The types of cannon in use by the British had not altered or progressed that much for many years,apart from the adoption of the Carronade, which could be devastating at SHORT range.The Americans, however, were enjoying a period of great inventiveness and innovation generally, and had made some advances in both land and marine ordnance technology. I seem to recall reading about Dahlgren and Parrot (? ) guns, which were capable of very high muzzle velocities, which may have been in use at that (USS Constitution ) period ??? I"m sure that someone out there knows !! But, if that was the case, then I would imagine that US Naval gunnery would have been vastly superior to that of the British or anyone else.----No wonder "Old Ironsides " thrashed the French privateers !! Any gunners out there with more ordnance facts & figures ?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Apr 07 - 11:04 AM USA naval gunnery often was superior at that time...but not always. In the case of the fight between the Chesapeake and the Shannon, the British crew had been drilling very regularly in the months prior to the battle, and they definitely outfought the American ship, delivering faster, more effective broadsides. This won them the battle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Teribus Date: 12 Apr 07 - 11:56 AM "At the time , the British navy were somewhat tight-fisted with regard to the provision of sufficient gunpowder to enable regular live-firing gun-drills for the gun crews, with the inevitable decline in efficiency" During the Napoleonic Wars (As opposed to much of the Nelsonian period which took place during the French Revolutionary Wars)? Nothing could be further from the truth. Captains were actively encouraged to exercise guns crews with live firing exercises to increase the fighting efficiency of their ships. Some of the oldest Royal Navy "squadron" trophies relate to gunnery competitions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Les from Hull Date: 13 Apr 07 - 11:46 AM Comparisons between the US Navy and the Royal Navy in the 1812 War are very difficult. The US Navy was tiny (in comparison), spent much of its time being blockaded and seldom fought an action with a vessel of the same size. Very few Americans will admit this though, but very few Americans have actually studied the war other than through rose-tinted glasses focussed on the victories gained over the largest Navy in the world at the time. On the subject of gunnery practice it is difficult to indulge in live practice when you are blockaded in harbour, and it is not a good idea to fire away powder and shot when you are blockading an enemy who may come out at any time. Dahlgren and Parrott guns were much later, even Colombiads were a bit later. There was basically no difference between British and American guns at this time. I'll be back with more detail when I can find the right book (Arming the Fleet). One main difference (in layman's terms) was that American ships often had thicker sides than ships they were facing - hence 'Old Ironsides'. There was also a lot of luck involved in a sea-fight in those days, and poor information. An example of this was United States and Endymion (a more equal combat than most). Endymion stopped firing because she though United States had surrendered, and United States though that she had beaten Endymion because the latter had stopped firing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Charley Noble Date: 13 Apr 07 - 01:35 PM Les- You're usually quite accurate in your discussions of the War of 1812 but I'm not aware of any battle between the United States and Endymion. The United States did capture the Macedonia (October 25, 1812) and later brought her prize to Newport. The battle was fought at relatively long range and the superiority of the United State's gunnery was quite evident. The relative balance of the two ships was similar to that of the Constiution and the Guerriere. Perhaps you meant the battle between the President and the Endymion in 1814. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Les from Hull Date: 14 Apr 07 - 09:31 AM Yes, sorry Charley, USS President, captured 15 January 1815 one day out from New York. HMS Endymion was armed with 24pdr long guns (but not has heavily armed as President). Endymion was built to the lines of the captured La Pomone (1795-7), as were 5 hurriedly-built sister ships in 1814. If you compare Commodore Decatur's account with that of the log-book of Endymion you will find a number of discrepancies. Most American accounts rely on the evidence given by Commodore Decatur at his Court of Inquiry, which considered that the Endymion was 'subdued'. But when the next frigate arrived President surrendered promptly. Endymion could not pursue until she had spent an our replacing sails. So what is the truth of this action? Endymion had 25 casualties (from 346), President had 105 (from 477), as well has at least five guns dismounted and six feet of water in the hold. President lost all her masts in a gale two days later and was taken (with difficulty) back to Britain. American accounts will tell you how President defeated Pomone but had to surrender to a superior squadron. President was broken up in 1818 - she was too shattered to be put into service - and the same year a 'copy' - HMS President - was built for the Royal Navy. This later served as a training ship at London. The name was transferred to the former world war one corvette HMS Saxifrage, and is now a conference centre. |
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Subject: RE: BS: the last dreadnought in existence From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Apr 07 - 09:41 AM It's typical that the "official" version of events on each side tends to be skewed to favour the home team. One sees this again and again in historical accounts of battles. I've got WWII clippings from British newspapers here from 1939-42 (my father kept them), and it's hilarious now reading some of the false propaganda that was intended to make the British look absolutely splendid, the Germans and Italians look absolutely evil and incompetent, and keep up British spirits on the homefront. I figure the German and Italian papers at the time would have been similarly unrealistic...maybe even worse. ;-) |
