More Quality Concertina Makers Required

Subject: MORE QUALITY CONCERTINA MAKERSREQUIRED
From: captainbirdseye
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 03:21 AM

I believe that the current waiting list for top quality concertinas,ENGLISH CONSTRUCTION, WITH PROPER CONCERTINA REEDS INSTEAD OF ACCORDION REEDS, is between 2 and 7 years. perhaps various organisations such as the I CA ,need to investigate ways through Grants etc, to help setting up small businessesimprove the supply demand situation,your comments would be appreciated.

Subject: RE: QUALITY CONCERTINAS
From: IanC
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 03:24 AM

Might be better to get a nice antique concertina second hand from one of the many restorers (like me). Beautiful instruments.

;-)

Subject: RE: MORE QUALITY CONCERTINA MAKERSREQUIRED
From: Paul Burke
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 03:32 AM

According to market theory, the price of concertinas should now rise until the profits to be made attract sufficient new manufacturers to meet the demand. But engineers use calculus.

Subject: RE: MORE QUALITY CONCERTINA MAKERSREQUIRED
From: captainbirdseye
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 04:21 AM

If the amount of concertina makers using concertina reeds and english construction were to treble,then Suttners waiting list would be down to 15 months,still a long time to wait for a concertina,.I have noticed that competition often reduces prices and forces craftsmen to maintain high standards.of courses flooding of the market is not desirable either as it can force bankruptcys but a trebling or even quadrupling of makers,would do no harmas demand seems to be increasing.DickMiles

Subject: RE: MORE QUALITY CONCERTINA MAKERSREQUIRED
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 04:37 AM

Is it possible to obtain 'concertina reeds' and have them fitted? I have a 'New' concertina with what I suspect is accordion reeds and I am a little concerned re quality and heaviness on what puports to be an expensive instrument (no names no pack drill)or libel!

Ray

pm elsewhere under r.padgett if needed

Subject: RE: MORE QUALITY CONCERTINA MAKERSREQUIRED
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 05:45 AM

G'day padgett,

Unfortunately, it isn't quite that simple. The characteristics of the "concertina reeds" in a classic London-made concertina are a complex product of reed characteristics /location and design of the reed's space / layout and materials of the body ends ... quite apart form individual making / tuning and 'voicing' skills. The mounting of 'accordion reeds' is quite different (usually 2-to-a-plate - rather than the concertina's single reeds in tapered, radiused, bevelled brass reed shoes - each fitting into specifically sized, matching, tapered, radiused and bevelled slots.

It may not be simple to do the change ... and individually made-to-order reeds would cost something like AUD$30 each, here in Australia ... and there are 60 of them in a 30-key Anglo-chromatic ... and 96 in a standard-sized English system box! Even made up and fitted as a set, this is looking like a 4-figure price tag ... and liable to have a waiting time approaching that of a new craftsman-made instrument.

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: MORE QUALITY CONCERTINA MAKERSREQUIRED
From: captainbirdseye
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 06:50 AM

Hi,your best bet is to contact John Connor it is a question of new sound boards,I will p m you with where his details can be found,it shouldnt be anything like the wait for a new instrument. Connor wait is one year.Dipper and Dickinson and Suttner 4 years. anyway thereis no harm in asking .Dick Miles

Subject: RE: MORE QUALITY CONCERTINA MAKERSREQUIRED
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 07:40 AM

Ray, do you know Paul Flannery in Cleckheaton? He fettles all mine and Parky's boxes. If I remember I'll bring his number to the fest, or you can get his details from The Music Room. And if I see him on Sat I'll point him in your direction. Tom

Subject: RE: MORE QUALITY CONCERTINA MAKERSREQUIRED
From: captainbirdseye
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 08:20 AM

dear Ray Padgett , I cant seemto pm you can you pm me. CaptainBirdseye.

Subject: RE: MORE QUALITY CONCERTINA MAKERSREQUIRED
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 08:29 AM

captainbirdseye

GUESTS can neither send nor receive PMs.

Subject: RE: MORE QUALITY CONCERTINA MAKERSREQUIRED
From: captainbirdseye
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 08:38 AM

Thanks Foolestroupe,visit concertina FAQ,Ray and its there.Captain Birdseye.

Subject: RE: MORE QUALITY CONCERTINA MAKERSREQUIRED
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 08:55 AM

Tom yep Paul Flannery knows me, see you at Cleckheaton

G.Day Bob Bolton, so the answer is it'll cost yer!!

Thanks Dick, how are you?

Cant pm from a guest log in Dick, but you should find me elsewhere cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: MORE QUALITY CONCERTINA MAKERSREQUIRED
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 10:31 AM

I've no idea how long it takes to make a quality concertina and the cost of the materials and the resources needed (ie tools, workshop etc). The minimum time I've seen for a handbuilt fretted instrument is about four months plus waiting time and it is not unusual for it to be about 8 to 10 months plus waiting time. The number of instruments built might be in the order of 12 to 18 a year. How many instrument makers will get a good standard of living out of affordable instruments?

Subject: RE: MORE QUALITY CONCERTINA MAKERSREQUIRED
From: EBarnacle
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 10:56 AM

Consider that there are over 1000 parts in an English 48 button box.

Subject: RE: MORE QUALITY CONCERTINA MAKERSREQUIRED
From: captainbirdseye
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 11:34 AM

There are four makers using english construction and proper concertina reeds, two of them have waiting lists of 5 years,if we had 16 makers the waiting list would be reduced to over a year,and nobody would be earning any less money than they are now.Demand far exceeds supply. last, most of these makers are middle aged,no one lives for ever,young makers are needed,or we wont have top quality instruments to play.CaptainBirdseye

Subject: RE: MORE QUALITY CONCERTINA MAKERSREQUIRED
From: IanC
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 11:42 AM

Except that these instruments have a lifetime which can be measured in centuries and there are literally thousands of good quality English made concertinas waiting to be restored

... and quite a few people to restore them.

Problem solved.

:-)

Subject: RE: MORE QUALITY CONCERTINA MAKERSREQUIRED
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 07:44 PM

G'day captainbirdseye,

There are more than just "... four makers using english construction and proper concertina reeds ...". Here, in Australia, from our small population of just 20 millions, we have two makers of excellent concertinas, handmade to standards above the common run of London-made concertinas in their heyday. Richard Evans, in the Blue Mountains area west of Sydney and Ian Simpson of Nariel Creek in northwestern Victoria both produce excellent instruments ... but with waiting lists as long as those of the British makers.

(We did have a third maker of equally good concertins: Pierre Hooft, a trained silversmith, but he died recently ... and he made only a small number of concertinas.) I understand that there are a number of very good, high-quality makers in South Africa ... but they can sell all they make to keen concertina players in the local Boer Museik tradition.

All these makers are striving to make instruments better than the best of 19c London-made ... but this means meticulous hand-crafting ... painfully long production periods ... and near interminable waiting lists. I'm sure there are other makers of whom I've not heard ... and I don't think anyone would silly enought to get into the game just for the money!

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: MORE QUALITY CONCERTINA MAKERSREQUIRED
From: Greg B
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 07:57 PM

I'm curious...what do you consider 'accordion reeds?'

The Bastari system? Well, obviously. They're on reed
blocks.

But what about what the US maker Button Box (Morse)
does, using 'accordion' reeds that are mounted flat
on the soundboard rather than dovetailed in?

The sound is essentially the same, but there is some
cost and complexity saving, as well as weight saving.
And one could argue that the arrangement is more stable,
as the cause of many a reed 'buzz' is the expansion of
the reedpan impinging on the reed frame, which then
interferes with the reed.

Is this 'legit?'

Or is it a case of 'Morse concertinas aren't as good as
they sound and play?'

Subject: RE: MORE QUALITY CONCERTINA MAKERSREQUIRED
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 09:35 PM

I seem to remember, when I squinted inside my McCann, that the reeds looked NOTHING like any 'Accordion Reed' I had ever seen.

Subject: RE: MORE QUALITY CONCERTINA MAKERSREQUIRED
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 12:25 AM

G'day Foolestroupe,

Refer back to my post, some dozen, or so, posts above for a quick description of an 'English' concertina reed as in your Maccann (get the prof's name right!) - of whatever London-make it is.

There are some well made concers with accordion reeds ... even some old Bastardis I own ... but coincertina reeds are made to withstand the much higher pressures in a small cross section like a concertina. I would never drive any Bastari as hard as I do my Lachenals (on occasion).

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: MORE QUALITY CONCERTINA MAKERSREQUIRED
From: captainbirdseye
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 04:12 AM

In Reply to Greg B ,I rate morse very highly,good action loud sound,but to me and this is only my personal opinion,they sound like a single reed castignari button accordion,and sound very different from my vintage concertinas with concertina reeds,.I agree with Bob Boltons pointabout pressures.Captain Birdseye.

Subject: RE: MORE QUALITY CONCERTINA MAKERSREQUIRED
From: Greg B
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 12:36 PM

Hmmm...interesting point, and I think I know what you mean. When
you play a Castagnari Lilly or Bebe or Lilliput, you think 'this
sounds kind of like a concertina' but then it's only 'kind of.'

I think the accordion reeds have a bit more of a sawtooth sound
to them...not a pathological buzz, but more off in the direction
of an oboe reed. A concertina has a bit more of a tuning-fork
like purity.

That said, I don't recall that in the Morse boxes I've picked
up, but then I didn't really think about it. I'll have to have
another listen. It's been a couple of years.


What I do recall is remarkable light weight, and something
about the shape/throw of the buttons which felt kind of
different but which could be gotten used to.

Subject: RE: MORE QUALITY CONCERTINA MAKERSREQUIRED
From: captainbirdseye
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 05:25 AM

There seems as if in the near future there may be an increase,in makers of accordion reeded concertinas ,but this is hardly going to help those people waiting for top quality concertina reeded english construction concertinas some of whom have to wait between four and seven years.DickMiles

Subject: RE: MORE QUALITY CONCERTINA MAKERSREQUIRED
From: Gurney
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 05:54 AM

I've never done more than repaired a concertina a bit, but if the reeds are as dear as Bob Bolton says, then some entrepreneur should look to getting a million or two frames made in India. They seem to do a LOT of brasswork and non-ferrous work, at very reasonable prices, and a toolmaker could final-machine the frames in their various sizes and fit the tongues, which could possibly be obtained from a springmaker and ground to size, and then all that's left to do would be tune them, and...
Ah, I see why they're so dear. Just for a moment there....

It must be good fun trying to source those long skinny screws that hold the thing together, too. Everything on musical instruments seems to be absolutly specialised. Except on Pacific-Island-built ukeleles.

Subject: RE: MORE QUALITY CONCERTINA MAKERSREQUIRED
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 06:39 AM

You could probably get the frames and reeds laser cut fairly cheaply in quantity, to an accuracy that would need no finishing. IIRC the reed frame is cut with a dovetail section for fitting, but CNC lasers could easily cope with that.

Subject: RE: More Quality Concertina Makers Required
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 03:44 AM

G'day Paul Burke,

Richard Evans starts with brass reed-shoe blanks stamped for each of the (many) different sizes needed in the standard English pattern of concertina making - then machines the bevelled (... tapered, radiused) slot in a pantograph cutting machine. I'm sure this could be done far cheaper by methods you describe - as long as the number of each variant was sufficient.

It's a bit like the time Richard Evans was metitulously fret-sawing out a concertina end plate... he asked me if there was some faster "modern" way to do it. I said: "No - for the dozen ends you need when you are making a production run of six concertinas ... but: Yes - if you need 10,000 of them!"

Nobody making instruments for impecunious folkies can ever imagine having the production base to permit the economies of high production. Perhaps the common use of CAD/CAM design programs will, eventually let some skilled bod set up the CAD/CAM files for all these bits and, if the production can be slipped into a brief spell of 'downtime' for a big manufacturer, enough reed shoes for all the concertina constructors could be turned out in a flash.

Now all we wouod need to do is to get all these blokes talking to each other ... work out how we can get them into the right hands ... in the right countries ... past tariff barriers ... and National Security checks ... and ? ... and ... ?

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: More Quality Concertina Makers Required
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 07:46 AM

... and just what to do with 10,000 reed shoes made 1/10th of a millimetre too small....

Subject: RE: More Quality Concertina Makers Required
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 07:59 AM

Actually I DO know a of a place that does that sort of job...

email me Bob...