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BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006

robomatic 25 Aug 06 - 10:06 PM
dianavan 25 Aug 06 - 08:32 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 25 Aug 06 - 07:16 PM
bobad 25 Aug 06 - 05:33 PM
beardedbruce 25 Aug 06 - 04:20 PM
dianavan 25 Aug 06 - 04:44 AM
Richard Bridge 25 Aug 06 - 03:52 AM
beardedbruce 10 Aug 06 - 05:05 PM
beardedbruce 10 Aug 06 - 04:36 PM
Peace 10 Aug 06 - 10:51 AM
beardedbruce 10 Aug 06 - 07:38 AM
beardedbruce 10 Aug 06 - 07:28 AM
Richard Bridge 10 Aug 06 - 03:19 AM
Peace 10 Aug 06 - 01:13 AM
beardedbruce 09 Aug 06 - 10:57 PM
C. Ham 09 Aug 06 - 09:28 PM
Richard Bridge 09 Aug 06 - 07:01 PM
Richard Bridge 09 Aug 06 - 06:43 PM
DougR 09 Aug 06 - 01:56 PM
robomatic 09 Aug 06 - 02:25 AM
Peace 08 Aug 06 - 09:46 PM
Peace 08 Aug 06 - 08:25 PM
Peace 08 Aug 06 - 06:34 PM
number 6 08 Aug 06 - 04:39 PM
bobad 08 Aug 06 - 04:32 PM
C. Ham 08 Aug 06 - 01:56 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 08 Aug 06 - 09:59 AM
GUEST 08 Aug 06 - 09:57 AM
GUEST,hugo 08 Aug 06 - 05:28 AM
bobad 07 Aug 06 - 09:47 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 07 Aug 06 - 09:27 PM
robomatic 07 Aug 06 - 08:15 PM
Peace 07 Aug 06 - 06:43 PM
bobad 07 Aug 06 - 05:34 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 07 Aug 06 - 08:04 AM
GUEST 07 Aug 06 - 07:47 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 06 Aug 06 - 10:10 PM
bobad 06 Aug 06 - 09:12 PM
Richard Bridge 06 Aug 06 - 09:07 PM
Richard Bridge 06 Aug 06 - 08:56 PM
robomatic 06 Aug 06 - 07:31 PM
bobad 06 Aug 06 - 06:59 PM
freda underhill 06 Aug 06 - 06:38 PM
Peace 06 Aug 06 - 05:46 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 06 Aug 06 - 04:40 PM
freda underhill 05 Aug 06 - 09:51 PM
beardedbruce 05 Aug 06 - 01:08 PM
beardedbruce 05 Aug 06 - 01:01 PM
beardedbruce 05 Aug 06 - 12:49 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 05 Aug 06 - 10:14 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 10:06 PM

Again and again I've tried to make the same point by asking the regular participants on this thread if they accept that Israel has the right to any borders, any borders at all, and a parallel right to defend those borders. There is a four way split I have observed in the responses:

1) Outright rejection of Israel with any borders, in effect, a rejection of Israel's right to exist.

2) Verbal agreement that Israel has the right to borders, but diffidence in allowing Israel to respond to Hezbollah, which we can all agree is in category 1).

3) Agreement that Israel has the right to borders, but difficulty in accepting the level of response, at least on the part of Israel, in the recent conflict.

4) Agreement that Israel has the right to borders, and acceptance for the most part in Israel's level of response under the Hezbollah attacks.

I do not think comparisons with the Nazis are germaine to the discussion, but they do serve to shed more heat than light and maybe that's what some of y'all are goin' for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 08:32 PM

I aplologize for that statement, John.

My point is that when people are rescued and given a nation of their own, they shouldn't turn around and oppress others.

My family hated the Nazis for their treatment of the Jews, supported the U.N. and the creation of Israel. My dad is dead but I'm sure he is rolling over in his grave at the recent events.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:16 PM

Gee, Dianavan, maybe your father should have just left those ungrateful Jews in those camps where he found them. Do you realize how stupid that statement you wrote sounds?
If, indeed, he was part of the liberation process, thank you to him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 05:33 PM

"the Israeli oppression of Gaza."

Did not Israel pull out of Gaza not too long ago, and did not Hamas immediately begin firing rockets into Israel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 04:20 PM

Sorry Richard, if you don't (or won't) see the difference between Israel attacking Hezbollah and Hezbollah attacking non-combatants I cannot help your moral bankruptcy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 04:44 AM

The whole world should know about the Israeli oppression of Gaza. If anyone had paid attention to the plight of those living in the Gaza strip, perhaps we would not be where we are today. Its a problem and it has to be solved. Turning a blind eye to the plight of those at the mercy of Israel will not make the problem go away.

I'm sure my father never dreamed that by saving Jews from the gas chamber, they would go on to create an oppressive, military regime that would imprison others in such large numbers. I am also sure that the Zionist philosophy has been thoroughly corrupted by self-serving politicians.

I feel very, very sad for the people of the Middle East and I'm sure most of them wish the politicians and their armies would just go away and let them live in harmony with one another.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 03:52 AM

And finally the world press focus has begun to turn back to where mine began - the Israeli oppression of Gaza.

Sorry Bruce, if you don't (or won't) see the difference between Israel attacking Hezbollah and Israel attacking non-combatants I cannot help your moral bankruptcy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 05:05 PM

"The Israeli military also dropped leaflets in Beirut, warning of expanded operations inside the capital and urging people in southern Shiite neighborhoods to evacuate. Those neighborhoods have been bastions of support for Hezbollah.

"To the people who live in Hay El Soulom, Borj El Barajneh, Shiyah ... For your safety," one flier warned.

"You must evacuate these areas immediately and evacuate any area from where Hezbollah and its members or their assistants are launching their terrorist operations.

"Be aware!"

Also receiving warning leaflets from Israel were northern Lebanese towns including El Beddaoui, Lebanese Internal Security Forces said.

Those leaflets warned that Israel will target any type of truck moving along the coastal road.

"Be aware that anybody using pick-ups or trucks puts his life in danger," one leaflet warned.

The leaflets said such vehicles will be targeted under suspicion of "transporting rockets, military ammunitions and terrorists."

....


"To date, Hezbollah has fired 3,333 rockets into northern Israel, Israeli authorities report."


http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/10/mideast.main/index.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 04:36 PM

from "Subject: BS: In the name of Allah
From: C. Ham - PM
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 03:42 PM

In the name of Allah

A fascinating article by Riad Ali, a television reporter who is an Israeli Arab and Moslem. "

"When the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza adopted suicide bombing as their strategy in fighting Israel, I concluded that their war against the occupation is over, and an indiscriminate war on Jews has begun. I was convinced then, as I am now, that at that moment, the Palestinians lost the war, at least in the moral sense. "

and

" today it is clear to see that its war is against Jews wherever they may be. You have to be deaf in order not to hear the voice of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as it emerges from Nasrallah's throat, and naive in order to believe that the purpose of the arsenal Nasrallah has accumulated is the release of prisoners and the liberation of the Shaba Farms. "

Finally,

"
I am not at war with the Jews, nor with the people of Israel. I have an argument with the Jews, and I have an argument with the State of Israel. On one point I do not argue, and that is the right of the Jewish people to their own independent state. To the best of my understanding, this war, as with the intifada, has to be judged from this perspective. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 10:51 AM

Interesting that the press ran with the initial figure of 58 and now it's 28 they seem to be real quiet about it, huh?

I wonder, does Hezbollah inform Israelis when it about to send rockets? Does anyone know?


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 07:38 AM

"We've all seen the pictures of the Red Cross ambulance with the rocket hole right through the middle of the red cross."


And I have seen NO credible evidence that the rocket was from an Israeli source. Can you provide anything beyond hearsay? If Israel HAD hit that ambulance, they should get a refund on the warhead- it caused remarkably little damage.

Or do you believe anything that Hezbollah says, and nothing that Israel says? THAT is evidence of bigotry. And I am sure that there ia one Jew somewhere YOU hate- so if so, YOU are a Jew-hating bigot.


BTW, The Lebonese Red Cross and Crescent has revised the casualty count down to 28 in Qana. Has the BBC told you yet?


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 07:28 AM

"That can only have been a deliberate attack on civilians."


Hardly. If Israel determines the location of the launch of Hezbollah rockets, and attacks THAT point, it is NOT a "DELIBERATE" attack against civilians. It IS a war crime on the part of Hezbollah to have launched from such an apartment block.


YOUR logic would require that a baseball player who hit a ball into the stands ( which all of them try to do!) and hits someone is guilty of deliberate assault! After all, someone was hurt, and he hit the ball.

International law is specific about this: If the target is a military one,such as a launching site for illegal area mass bambardment rockets, and civilians have been warned, the attacker is NOT in violation.


"even if part of the block had been (and I have yet seen no evidence to that effect) used to launch or plan a Hezbollah attack."

And where have you looked for such evidence? It has been demonstrated that the BBC is being given guided tours by Hezbollah, being shown only what Hezbollah wants you to know. What other sources have you even loooked at?


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 03:19 AM

Without limitation:

Yesterday (or was it the day before), to give but one example, Israel took down an entire apartment block in a mainly Christian, non-Hezbollah, area of Beirut. It was occupied by people eating ther evening meals. It is not credible that they thought there were only (or even mainly) Hezbollah there - even if part of the block had been (and I have yet seen no evidence to that effect) used to launch or plan a Hezbollah attack. That can only have been a deliberate attack on civilians.

Israel is leafleting Tyre (sp?). Any vehicle that moves is being targeted. We've all seen the pictures of the Red Cross ambulance with the rocket hole right through the middle of the red cross. There is not even a pretence that civilians are not being targetted.

There is a difference between "civilians" and "all civilians".

I set out above why Ham's preferred article was logically indefensible. The US government links of the writer and the place of publication made it suspect. The internal defects made it laughable, for the reasons I have already given in my post specifically directed to it. Go and check. You don't have to kowtow to the author merely because he has a CV you like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 01:13 AM

If Israel WAS targeting civilians, does anyone here actually think the death toll would be so low?


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 10:57 PM

"There can be no doubt at all (and the evidence piles up, like the corpses, day by day) that Israel is intentionally inflicting damage on the non-combatant Lebanese and Lebanese (not Hezbollah) infrastructure."


SInce the point of contention is that you have NOT demonstrated that Israel is doing so, nor that it has committed "war crimes" other than in your personnal opinion, I fail to see how you can say "There can be no doubt at all "


I have no doubt at all that YOU have not attempted to find out the facts about any of the claims of "war crimes" beyond looking at a single side's presentation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 09:28 PM

Richard Bridge dismissed one article I linked to because he suspected the author was Jewish.

Now he dismisses another article because it was published in the Wall Street Journal.

Here is a biography of Orde Kittrie, the author. His credentials are impeccable.

And what are Richard Bridge's credentials as a legal scholar who can stand up to Professor Kittrie?


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 07:01 PM

The article to which C. Ham links is printed in the Wall Street Journal, pillar of balance. Note to Americans, this is sarcasm.

It quite simply does not withstand critical reading. There can be no doubt at all (and the evidence piles up, like the corpses, day by day) that Israel is intentionally inflicting damage on the non-combatant Lebanese and Lebanese (not Hezbollah) infrastructure. I even heard an effective admission of it by an Israeli airforce spokesman.

The war crimes record of Russia, Hezbollah, or others is wholly off the point. There have been no war crimes by the Lebanon or the Lebanese (as distinct from Hezbollah), and even if there had been, that would not justify retaliatory war crimes.

As time wears on it is clear that the issue of Israel's conduct against the Lebanon is no longer a matter of opinion. It is beyond doubt or effective argument (as here tested) damnable. We had the debate. Israel has no valid defence against the accusation.

I don't really see any point in prolonging this debate: the world against Israel, some of America, and Blair.   It has however given me a fresh perspective on the debate about Israel on the one hand and Hezbollah and Hamas on the other, and I fear as a result that I am tending to see Israel as invaders and displacers far worse than the English ever were in Ireland. I am not yet concluded, but that is my feeling, a far cry from what I thought in 1967. Let us have that debate at another time in another place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 06:43 PM

The internal US law citations above support my position, not those of their proponents.

The hawks above are still failing to distinguish between Hezbollah and the Lebanon. I am at a loss to suggest a respectable motive for this failing now that I have ponted it out so many times.

I have been away having a debate with a barrister who teaches criminal law at two universities, and he has been liaising with a Canadian lawyer who has a practice in criminal law and has defended a number of murders.

The upshot of the debate was as follows: -




Q.   "So we are agreed that neither in England nor Canada would there be a viable defence for a policeman who deliberately killed the hostage in order to kill the kidnapper?"

A.   "We are less certain than you; but agree that this should be the case."


I am off to read C. Ham's link but am uninspired by the stated fact that "Mr. Kittrie is professor of international law at Arizona State University and served in the Office of the Legal Adviser at the U.S. State Department from 1993 to 2003."   Don't you think this sort of gives him a foot in one camp?   I am unbiased: I am neither an Israeli (nor Jewish) nor American, nor am I a member of Hezbollah nor a Moslem nor of any Arabic nationality residence or descent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: DougR
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 01:56 PM

The latest proposition presented by the Arabs in the UN to send the Lebenese Army down (assisted by some internation force yet to be named and organized) to protect Israel from terrorist attacks is laughable.

Like sending the wolf to guard the hen house.

I wrote in a post here on the Mudcat years ago that the road to final peace in that region is for one side to defeat the other. I stll believe that.

The Isralies are attacking Lebanon because that's where the bad guys are. Lebanon should have disarmed Hezballah years ago if it wanted to protect itself.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 02:25 AM

Guest, hugo:

Did you ever answer the question:

I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

I don't think you did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:46 PM

From http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008756

"The track record of many of Israel's most powerful accusers--including China, Russia and the European Union--is not nearly as good at balancing civilian risk against military goals.
China killed hundreds of peaceful Tiananmen Square protestors in 1989. It has for five decades occupied Tibet, slaughtering tens of thousands; and it vows to invade Taiwan if it declares independence. Neither the Tiananmen protesters nor Tibet nor Taiwan has ever threatened to "wipe China off the map."

Russia has fought since 1994 to suppress Chechnya's independence movement. Out of a Chechen population of one million, as many as 200,000 have been killed as Russia has leveled the capital city of Grozny. Chechen rebels pose no threat to "wipe Russia off the map." All of the leading EU countries actively participated in NATO's 78-day bombing campaign against Yugoslavia in 1999. The military goal was to stop Yugoslavia from oppressing its Kosovar minority. NATO bombs and missiles hit Yugoslav bridges, power plants and a television station, killing hundreds of civilians. Yugoslavia posed no threat to the existence of any of the EU countries that bombed it.

Compared with how China, Russia, and the EU have dealt with non-existential threats--and despite the law-flouting behavior of Hezbollah, Iran and Syria--Israel's responses to the threats to its existence have been remarkably restrained rather than disproportionately violent."


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 08:25 PM

Gee, what a surprise . . . .

"Questions about journalistic integrity emerged this weekend from the continuing conflict between Israel and Hezbollah, after a photojournalist was found to have doctored two images out of Beirut.

This two-photo combination shows an image, as submitted to Reuters by Beirut-based freelance photographer Adnan Hajj, on top, and the original on the bottom. Reuters on Sunday withdrew the image after evidence suggested it was manipulated to show more smoke. (Adnan Hajj, Reuters/Associated Press) The Reuters News Agency has withdrawn more than 900 images from its database taken by Adnan Hajj, one of its freelance photographers based in Beirut."

from here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 06:34 PM

From Reuters:

'HAIFA, 8 August (IRIN) - Doctors are concerned that Hezbollah's use of ballbearings in many of the rockets fired into northern Israel is increasing the number of casualties: 36 civilians have been killed so far, according to Israeli authorities.

"These bullets [ballbearings] cause damaging penetrative injuries," said Dr Eran Tal-or, the attending physician at the trauma unit in Haifa's Rambam Hospital. "If the bullet is lodged in the brain, for example, we wouldn't even try to get it out because we would cause even more damage. And if it cuts a major artery, then you will be dead in no time."'


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 04:39 PM

They'll read it Bobad ... but will retort with some wacky interpetation of Zionism, the Chosen People and how it is parallel to the Nazi Party of Germany ... and that Israeli's mandate is to wipe the whole populace of Lebanon. No use debating (intelligently) this conflict with that lot.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 04:32 PM

Excellent link C.Ham, I hope that it is read by the various "guests" as well as Richard Bridge, freda underhill and the others who bleat on about Israel's war crimes, perhaps they would like to present us with their credentials in international law so that we can compare them with the article's author: "Mr. Kittrie is professor of international law at Arizona State University and served in the Office of the Legal Adviser at the U.S. State Department from 1993 to 2003."


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 01:56 PM

Expert legal opinion on "war crimes" in the current conflict.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:59 AM

Hizbollah is not the main Lebanese Resistance fight the invasion of Lebanon; they are the reason there is an invasion of Lebanon!!! Alas, there is some validity to the rest of that post


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:57 AM

A skill-testing question, or a riddle, depending upon your point of
view: what do we call a one-sided ceasefire?

The answer to the question, the solution to the riddle, is not nearly
as obvious as one might think. In fact, based upon a cursory review
of sundry media reports and commentaries in recent days, it seems
that quite a few otherwise-sensible people are making demands for
a "ceasefire" that would apply entirely to one side, and not ever to
the other.

If that is the definition that "ceasefire" has acquired (and it has),
the people of Israel can be forgiven for being unenthusiastic. You
would be, too, if someone was firing bullets through your front door –
and a newspaper columnist was simultaneously condemning you for
calling in the police.

Since Qana, however, Richard Bridge and certain media commentators have taken up a tuneless ceasefire chorus – one that requires Israel to lay down its arms, more or less unilaterally. Hezbollah, it is assumed, will cheerfully comply with a polite request that they stop firing rockets at Israeli civilian targets. After all, Hezbollah could not possibly flout the robust humanitarian consensus at the United Nations, could they? Could they?

Well, yes, Hezbollah could continue to do precisely that – because
that is precisely what Hezbollah did in the many months leading up to
Israel's military response. For week after week after week, Hezbollah
fired on Israelis, bombed Israelis, kidnapped Israelis, murdered
Israelis. Israel complained, mightily, but the Richard Bridges of the world shrugged, mainly. Most notably, no one called for a ceasefire. Except Israel.

Now that Israel has finally responded, the Richard Bridge and his friends are inflamed. They are demanding, typically, that Israel conduct itself according to rules of engagement that Hezbollah (or any of Israel's arrayed enemies) are never required to observe, much less
acknowledge.

But that complaint is yesterday's bagels, you might say. It is
nothing new. Richard Bridge and his friends like McGrath of Harlow, Frida Underhill, CarolC, etc. have always held Israel to a different standard. As Charles Krauthammer put it: "What other country sustains 1,500 indiscriminate rocket attacks into its cities – every one designed to kill, maim and terrorize civilians – and is then vilified by the world when it tries to destroy the enemy's infrastructure and strongholds…?"

But vilified Israel is. Angry demonstrations against Israel
take place on a daily basis, its leaders and people likened to Nazis.

And, in the Mudcat Forum, anti-Jewish conspiracy theories now regularly take the place of serious analysis. Read the Toronto Sun's Eric Margolis, for example: "Israel's attempted destruction of Hezbollah is the first step in a long-planned campaign to strip away Iran's allies and turn Lebanon into a joint US-Israeli protectorate." Or the Toronto Star's Haroon Siddiqui: "The abductions [of Israeli soldiers] provided the excuse to do what Israel was planning anyway – try and destroy Hezbollah and Hamas."

These fiendish Israeli "campaigns" and "plans" apparently also
extended to Israel requiring that Hezbollah rockets be launched at
Israel – and that Israel look the other way while Israelis are
kidnapped by murderers. With the greatest of respect, Messrs.
Margolis and Siddiqui give the sasquatch coverage in the National
Enquirer the glossy finish of high academic research.

But if all of this sounds rather familiar, it is because it is:
whenever Israel responds to organized campaigns of mass murder, as is
its right, sputtering indignation is heard far and wide. Tenured
university professors rail against the Zionist state on newspaper op-
ed pages; McGrath of Harlow and Frida Underhill demand that Israel exercise restraint never practiced by its enemies; and CarolC says the Middle East would be a utopian paradise if the "occupation" was ended.

And therein lays the rub – and the answer to the riddle at the
outset. What do we call a one-sided ceasefire?

Well, we call it suicide. Hezbollah certainly would.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 05:28 AM

Hezbollah is the main part of the Lebanese Resistance fighting the invasion of their country.For far too long Israel has invaded ,attacked and terrorised its neighbours almost at will.This time it is all going wrong and the Lebanese are flocking to support Hebollah.Its a quagmire and it is going to get worse for Israel...the Lebanese seem to have lost their fear.
hugo


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 09:47 PM

It certainly gets complicated, with all the various sects and factions issuing their fatwas one needs a program to keep track.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 09:27 PM

Sunni cleric who inspired bin Laden issues anti-Hezbollah edict

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060805.wSunni0805/BNStory/Front

Associated Press

CAIRO, Egypt — A top Saudi Sunni cleric whose ideas inspired Osama bin Laden issued a religious edict Saturday disavowing the Shiite guerrilla group Hezbollah.

Hezbollah, which translates as "the party of God," is actually "the party of the devil," said Sheik Safar al-Hawali.

"Don't pray for Hezbollah," he said in the fatwa posted on his Web site.

The edict reflects the historical stand of strict Wahhabi doctrine viewing Shiite Muslims as heretics, and follows a similar fatwa from another popular Saudi cleric, Sheik Abdullah bin Jibreen, not to support Hezbollah.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 08:15 PM

I think Richard is falling prey to the idea in this thread of 'asymmetrical blame':

Anything Israel does is linked with a war crime.
Anything Hezbollah does is linked with civil disobediance.

Therefore dead Israelis are simply dead combatants.
Dead Lebanese are de facto innocent victims.

The link being made by Hezbollah to the Lebanese (via proximity and governmental bodies and lack of Lebanese military intervention) is apparently disregarded.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 06:43 PM

Still doesn't answer the question: "What does one do about the Hezbollah attacks on Israel?" But maybe that's just a tough question to answer because it would engender the complete destruction of Israel to satisify Hezbollah. Any suggestions, Richard?


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 05:34 PM

"Lebanese government, which includes two Hizbullah ministers, decides to send 15,000 troops to the south as Israeli troops pull out of territory; "this should open the way for the amendment of the draft resolution in accordance with Lebanese demands," senior Lebanese official says"

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3287927,00.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 08:04 AM

"JURCRM0503

REVISED TO DECEMBER 31, 2001

§ 5.3 FELONY MURDER § 53a-54c

The defendant is charged with the crime of felony murder in violation of § 53a-54c of the Penal Code, which provides as follows: ''A person is guilty of murder when, acting either alone or with one or more persons, he commits or attempts to commit . . . [designate the appropriate underlying felony] and, in the course of and in furtherance of such crime or of flight therefrom, he, or another participant, if any, causes the death of a person other than one of the participants. . . .''

For you to find the defendant guilty of this charge, the state must prove the following elements beyond a reasonable doubt: (1) that the defendant, acting alone or with one or more other persons, committed or attempted to commit the crime of [          ]. [Charge on the elements of the underlying felony.]; (2) that the defendant or another participant in the crime of [          ] caused the death of another person; (3) that the defendant or another participant caused the death while in the course of, and in furtherance of the commission or attempted commission of the crime of [          ], or, in immediate flight therefrom; and (4) that the victim was not a participant. A participant is one who takes part or shares in the underlying crime.

By this law, the legislature has provided that when, during the actual commission or attempted commission of [insert felony charged in information] or in the immediate flight therefrom, the perpetrator causes the death of another person, the perpetrator is guilty of felony murder. It does not matter that the act that caused the death was committed unintentionally or accidentally, rather than with the intention to cause death, nor does it matter if the death was the result of the victim's fear or flight. The perpetrator is as guilty when committing this form of murder as he would be if he had intentionally committed the act that caused the death."


Looking for more details.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 07:47 AM

"Human shield
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Human shields)
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Human shield is a military term describing the presence of civilians in or around combat targets to deter an enemy from attacking those targets. It may also be used to describe the use of civilians to literally shield combatants during attacks, by forcing the civilians to march in front of the soldiers during human wave attacks. Using this technique increases the civilian casualty rate and is highly illegal in any nation that is party to the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Contents [hide]
1 Tactic in war
1.1 Iraq
1.2 Palestine
1.3 Israel
2 Tactic in peace campaigning
3 Other uses
4 See also
5 External links
6 Notes



[edit]
Tactic in war
The term human shield can also be used collectively where the shield is not an individual but the whole population. In this case, one party in a conflict intentionally positions its military assets amongst a civilian population or close to civilian facilities such as hospitals or schools in the hope that the other party will be reluctant to attack them. Furthermore, if the other party attacks these targets anyway, the resulting civilian casualties have propaganda value.

International law considers the use of human shields to protect targets a war crime. The Fourth Geneva Convention forbids the use of any civilian as a shield: "The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations." (Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, August 12, 1949, 6 U.S.T. 3516, 75 U.N.T.S. 287, art. 28)."


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 10:10 PM

Guilty, Richard. The only way Israel can rid itself of the Hizbullah threat is get them where they hide and launch rockets, so, yes, I blame Hizbullah for Lebanese deaths.
BTW, please show me where anybody not on your side does not distinguish between Lebanese and Hizbullah. Stop padding your arguments with false personal attacks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 09:12 PM

"If a man assaults me with his fists, it is unlawful for me to shoot him."

Hezbollah continued to fire more than 1,900 [4] Katyusha rockets and other rockets into northern Israel's towns and cities, including Nahariya, Safed, Hatzor HaGlilit, Rosh Pina, Kiryat Shmona, and Karmiel, and numerous small agricultural villages.[5][6][7][8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah_rocket_campaign_in_the_2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict

Some fists Richard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 09:07 PM

Also, in England, a driver of a fire engine has been found guilty of causing death by dangerous driving when he jumped traffic lights at 30 mph and flattened a car that had the green light. The (argued) defence of necessity did not entitle him to leave a trail of destruction on the way to the fire, said the judge.

In a very old case two seamen cast adrift in a boat would have starved to death if they had not killed and eaten the cabin-boy. Held: murder.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 08:56 PM

Gentlemen, you condemn yourselves. The nub of your retort (apart from one point that is interesting and a quantity of invention) is that you think it fair, right, and proper for Israel to kill non-Hezbollah because they have to do it to kill Hezbollah. Military necessity is not the same as moral justification, and I wholly fail to see how it can be right to kill/punish the innocent in an attempt (if otherwise proper)to kill/punish the guilty.

Some of you don't seem to be capable of making the distinction between Hezbollah and the rest of the Lebanon.


The one point that is interesting is set out (twice) by Bearded Bruce:

"In American law, if a person is killed ( even by the police) when someone commits a crime, the person COMMITTING the crime is held responsible for murder, or at least willful homicide. IF the police are shown to have disregarded standards ( ie, acted contrary to established rules) then they, too, can be held at fault, but almost always to a lesser degree."

And "If there are civilians there, International law holds HEZBOLLAH as the responsible party for commiting war crimes, by locating in such forbidden areas."


I should appreciate seeing authority for those statements.




Bearded Bruce also says that the offending party does not get to choose the form of reprisal. That might be relevant if the Lebanese were the offending party, but they are not: Hezbollah are. Moreover, reprisals as such are not lawful, although self defence is, but the acts of self defence must be reasonable (similar to proportionate). If a man assaults me with his fists, it is unlawful for me to shoot him. These two principles are why Tony Martin here was convicted after shooting three burglars in the back as they were running away.



Although it is not the only measure of reasonableness, it is easy to test whether Israel's actions against the Lebanon (not solely against Hezbollah) are reasonable. How many Lebanese dead compared to Israeli? How much of the Lebanon destroyed, compared to Israel? Evenif the Lebanon were the right target, the response is disproportionate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 07:31 PM

Richard Bridge wrote:

Defenders of Israel seem to be limited to Bearded Bruce, Robomatic, the aptly named Peace, C. Ham, and John on the Sunset Coast, most of whom seem to think that it is acceptable to kill the hostage in order to save him.

Enough said.


I'm not sure what 'was said'. Interestingly enough you characterized us as 'defenders' indicating Israel is under attack in this forum just as it was placed under attack by the now understood to be quite considerable forces of Hezbollah and the negligence or quiescent complicity of Lenanon's government and armed forces. Please explain how this translates to your doing our talking for us that we 'seem to think that it is acceptable to kill the hostage in order to save him.'

If you have paid attention to numerous hostage situations around the world and their resolution, it should be obvious to any reasonable being that a hostage is frequently killed during attempts to save them, and frequently killed even if there is no attempt to save them. Circumstances with Palestinian hostage takers bear this out rather brutally when elderly men in wheelchairs are cast into the sea or elderly women killed in hospital.

You then go on to say that you prefer some news sources to other news sources because you prefer some news sources to other news sources. You seem to use self justification as a technique as well as an excuse (you are not alone in this thread in doing that).

As for your statement:

Pro or anti Hezbollah writings are not relevant to the primary issue I raised here, of Israel killing non-Hezbollah Lebanese and destroying the Lebanese infrastructure.

Your premise is the entire reason for the propaganda campaign being waged against Israel, of which you are willing to be a part. Hezbollah has been establishing itself amongst the Lebanese for many years now and has embedded itself among the very civilian population and infrastructure that has become collateral damage. Think metastatic cancer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 06:59 PM

Nine Israelis killed in Hezbollah rocket attacks

Ten Israelis killed in rocket attack in Kiryat Shmona

At least nine Israelis killed in Hizbullah rocket attac

Three Israelis killed by Hizbollah rockets

8 Lebanese, 5 Israelis Killed, Fighting Continues

12 Israelis killed by Hezbollah guerillas: Tel Aviv orders seizure ...

Israelis killed in latest fighting

Eight Israelis killed in Hezbollah rocket attacks

http://news.google.ca/nwshp?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official_s&tab=wn&q=israelis+killed&ie=ISO-8859-1

Here's some headlines from today's news freda, since you seem to be keeping score maybe you can update us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 06:38 PM

from Robert fisk, in Beirut..

..Yesterday, needless to say, was another day of massacres, great and small. The largest appeared to be 40 farm workers in northern Lebanon, some of them Kurds - a people who do not even have a country. An Israeli missile was reported to have exploded among them as they loaded vegetables on to a refrigerated truck near Al-Qaa, a small village east of Hermel in the far north. The wounded were taken to hospital in Syria because the roads of Lebanon have now all been cratered by Israeli bomb-bursts. Later we learnt that an air strike on a house in the village of Taibeh in the south had killed seven civilians and wounded 10 seeking shelter from attack.

In Israel two civilians were killed by Hizbollah missiles but, as usual, Lebanon bore the brunt of the day's attacks which centred - incredibly - on the Christian heartland that has traditionally shown great sympathy towards Israel. It was the Christian Maronite community whose Phalangist militiamen were Israel's closest allies in its 1982 invasion of Lebanon yet Israel's air force yesterday attacked three highway bridges north of Beirut and - again as usual - it was the little people who died. One of them was Joseph Bassil, 65, a Christian man who had gone out on his daily jogging exercise with four friends north of Jounieh. "His friends packed up after four rounds of the bridge because it was hot," a member of his family told us later. "Joseph decided to do one more jog on the bridge. That was what killed him." The Israelis gave no reason for the attacks - no Hizbollah fighters would ever enter this Christian Maronite stronghold and the only hindrance was caused to humanitarian convoys - and there were growing fears in Lebanon that the latest air raids were a sign of Israel's frustration rather any serious military planning.

Indeed, as the Lebanon war continues to destroy innocent lives - most of them Lebanese - the conflict seems to be increasingly aimless. The Israeli air force has succeeded in killing perhaps 50 Hizbollah members and 600 civilians and has destroyed bridges, milk factories, gas stations, fuel storage depots, airport runways and thousands of homes. But to what purpose? Does the United States any longer believe Israel's claims that it will destroy Hizbollah when its army clearly cannot do anything of the kind? Does Washington not realise that when Israel grows tired of this war, it will plead for a ceasefire - which only Washington can deliver by doing what it most loathes to do: by taking the road to Damascus and asking for help from President Bashar al-Assad of Syria?

What in the meanwhile is happening to Lebanon? Bridges and buildings can be reconstructed - with European Union loans, no doubt - but many Lebanese are now questioning the institutions of the democracy for which the US was itself so full of praise last year. What is the point of a democratically elected Lebanese government which cannot protect its people? What is the point of a 75,000-member Lebanese army which cannot protect its nation, which cannot be sent to the border, which does not fire on Lebanon's enemies and which cannot disarm Hizbollah? Indeed, for many Lebanese Shias, Hizbollah is now the Lebanese army. So fierce has been Hizbollah's resistance - and so determined its attacks on Israeli ground troops in Lebanon - that many people here no longer recall that it was Hizbollah which provoked this latest war by crossing the border on 12 July, killing three Israeli soldiers and capturing two others. Israel's threats of enlarging the conflict even further are now met with amusement rather than horror by a Lebanese population which has been listening to Israel's warnings for 30 years with ever greater weariness. And yet they fear for their lives. If Tel Aviv is hit, will Beirut be spared. Or if central Beirut is hit, will Tel Aviv be spared? Hizbollah now uses Israel's language of an eye for an eye. Every Israeli taunt is met by a Hizbollah taunt.

And do the Israelis realise that they are legitimising Hizbollah, that a rag-tag army of guerrillas is winning its spurs against an Israeli army and air force whose targets - if intended - prove them to be war criminals and if unintended suggest that they are a rif-raff little better than the Arab armies they have been fighting, on and off, for more than half a century? Extraordinary precedents are being set in this Lebanon war.
... ened of Robert fisk article

Does israel truly believe that Hezbollah is "hiding" amongst Maronite Christians? Israeli is conducting genocide against the lebanese people.

Yes, I'm also concerned about the two israeli citizens that died yesterday, bombed by hezbollah.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 05:46 PM

"Come on, now you have checked (if you have checked), admit that I was right to say that there were sufficient reasons not to accept Gross's assertions without checking."

There are usually sufficient reasons not to accept ANYone's assertions without checking. Saying that is a waste.

Richard, in some ways you remind me of a fellow who puts up the sail then puffs to create his own wind. On some days you admit that Israel has a right to defend its people. On others, you seem to say it doesn't.

I will admit that I wish this war was not going on. I think if you asked those of us you seem to dislike how we feel about civilian deaths in war--regardless of who causes those deaths--you'd be surprised to find that NONE of us like it. (I have not asked any of the folks: Bobad, John, BB, GUEST, C Ham: however, I bet they too wish this necessary action could come to an end in a helluva hurry.) But the thing you do not address is Hezbollah. How are the Israelis supposed to defend against them and their rockets? You stated--I was going to say admitted, but we both know that's a cheap lawyer's trick--that Hezbollah started this mess. So how would YOU curtail Hezbollah rockets attacks and suicide bomber attacks? Give us all a hint because we'd really like to know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 04:40 PM

I would like to hear from 'the usual suspects' who tell us how the IDF is 'targeting' civilians in Lebanon, just what military targets Hizbullah has rocketed in Haifa today/tonight. My understanding that some of the dead there and other places are actually Israeli Arabs. But I guess it doesn't matter; its for a good cause...the annihilation of Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 09:51 PM

I am not attacking Israel, bb, I'm expressing my dismay at the actions of the current government. There is a difference between a government and its people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 01:08 PM

"Defenders of Israel seem to be limited to Bearded Bruce, Robomatic, the aptly named Peace, C. Ham, and John on the Sunset Coast, most of whom seem to think that it is acceptable to kill the hostage in order to save him.

Enough said."


Ok, please be so kind as to list those here who are attacking Israel, not inclunding those numerous but unaccountable GUESTS.



Enough said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 01:01 PM

" That is murder (in English law) for the policeman must essentially and objectively have considered the risk of killing me or doing grievous bodliy harm to me and at best then disregarded it."


In American law, if a person is killed ( even by the police) when someone commits a crime, the person COMMITTING the crime is held responsible for murder, or at least willful homicide. IF the police are shown to have disregarded standards ( ie, acted contrary to established rules) then they, too, can be held at fault, but almost always to a lesser degree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 12:49 PM

"If Hezbollah has committed warcrimes it does not justify warcrimes AGAINST THE LEBANON."


Agreed, BUT YOU HAVE NOT SHOWN ANY WAR CRIMES against Lebenon.

Or do you claim that sites where illegal anti-civilian area mass bombardment rockets are launched from are NOT military targets?

Or that Hezbollah headquarters are not military targets?

Or that Hezbollah military supply dumps are not military targets?


IF there are civilians there, International law holds HEZBOLLAH as the responsible party for commiting war crimes, by locating in such forbidden areas.


"lay waste to the Lebanon generally."

Hardly. Have you even looked at what HAS been destroyed? Selected buildings used by Hezbollah, the bridges and roads used by Hezbollah to move the rocket launchers around, and WHAT ELSE? If Israel was doing as the rest of the world claims, it would look like Dresden or Tokeyo after the bombings, which it does not.

Regardless of any assumed bias, why are you incapable of looking at the FACTS presented by Gross, trying to find out the truth, and making up your own mind about it?

Israel just sent in commandos to go to a specific apartment to destroy a specific Hezbollah unit that has been launching long range rockets at Israel. A few bombs would have taken them out A LOT EASIER,
and with far less risk of taking Israeli casualties.


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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 10:14 AM

Richard Bridge

You point out that there seems to a paucity of so-called defenders of Israel posting here. All that proves is there is a paucity of such defenders, but that observation does not invalidate what they have to say. Think of the old TV play/movie "Twelve Angry Men".

Israel has been under attack from Hezbullah for six years. The killing of 2 soldiers and the kidnapping of the 3rd was the act that finally stirred Israel to action. Even Hezbullah was surprised they had stirred such fury, because past actions had had only had mild responses. As I pointed out earlier, they played the same card once too often. I also said that the aggressor (in this instance Hizbullah) does not get to decide what the reprisal shall be, nor when it ends.

Israel demands security on the northern border. To Israel that means they eliminate Hizbullah as a fighting force, and interdict their supply lines. Since Hizbullah places its arms and rocket launchers amongst the general populace so Israel has two choices; allow Hibullah to freely attack Israeli cities, or eliminate the source of those attacks. So, I see Hizbullah as being responsible for those civilian deaths. Israel has indeed acts morally in warning civilians where the attacks are coming so they can try to leave. In doing so, Israel is also letting Hizbullah know where the attacks are coming. Question...is it possible that Hizbullah is making it difficult for civilians to leave, so there will be more casualties?

BTW, what actual military targets has Hizbullah attacked in Haifa, Acre or other Israeli cities? Never mind, that's irrelevent.


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