BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 03:34 AM

The source of my information is the history of Palestine and Israel.
IT is the philosophy and practice of Zionism.
It is what is happening now in Israel,the Lebanon and the Middle East.
It is the role ,past and present of the USA.
It is the work on Amnesty International and other Hunan Rights groups.
It is not the mainstream media in the West which is generally in thrall to Zionism and the Big Business interests whichare also in favour of a Middle East under the control of the USA .

Socialist Worker is loathed by Zionists and the right . So it must be doing its job.It also tries to serve as the memory of the international working class hence its recent article on Zionism by the jewish and socialist writer John Rose....who is also the author of the brilliant book The Myths of Zionism. This week's edition also carries a useful article entitled "Lebanon's History of Resistance To Zionism" .
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 03:01 AM

"This time, as on earlier occasions of wars involving Israel and its neighbours, many in the West view both parties to the conflict through the lens of moral equivalence.

The view that Israel and its enemies are essentially morally equivalent overlooks one crucial fact, above all.

Of all the different peoples in the Middle East, Israelis, alone, live permanently under threat for their very existence as a people.

Arab and Muslim leaders and activists from Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Egypt and Lebanon are notoriously fractious and warring.

But time and again, they have been brought to unity on a single point. The need to crush, defeat and, if possible, obliterate Israel."

parrt of an article from here.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:48 AM

Was your mind given a washing before or after the Socialist Workers Party became the source of your information?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:42 AM

A comment about robomatic's Posting Above

"That is what democracy and freedom are all about"

Before you praise Israel as a beacon of democracy and freedom any further consider-

1 The whole state was founded on land stolen from its indiginous population-the people of Palestine.

Yes,its difficult for a hardened Zionist to accept but the Palestinians were there before the Zionists and were in the majority. The Israelis were better armed ,better led and better trained. Zionism itself was and is a ferocious belief and the Palestinians had no real defence to the ferocity of the onslaught from the Zionist militias like the Irgun.Israel denies those refugees the right of return .

2 Israel is also an expansionist state looking to conquer new land from its neighbours.Many Zionists ,some in positions of power ,believe in a Israel that would be far bigger than its present borders.

In defiance of the Geneva Convention and the UN, Israel has settled hundreds of thousands of armed Zionists in colonies on the West Bank.These paramilitaries have behaved like the bullying racists they are,shooting threatening and stealing from the Palestinians who live there.They have stolen land yet again,water,orchards and farmland .
Some of these paramilitary types have been driven mad by their Zionism.One Baruch Goldstein ,an army reservist ,slaughtered and wounded hundreds of muslim worshippers in the holy shrine the Tomb of the patricians with an army issue assault rifle.
When he was overcome and killed by those he attacked his death was classed as "murder"!

The Palestinians on the conquered West Bank and in Gaza have been imprisoned and ill treated in their tens of thousands.Almost every male Palestinian has been in prison at one time or another.They have ben tortured and denied the most basic civil rights by Israel.

Basically Israel is determined to make their lives impossible and drive them out.Your claim about Israeli democracy is a mockery!

3 The Israeli treatment of Gaza is surely a crime against humanity.For almost 40 years some 8000 Israeli Zionists backed up by their powerful army controlled the million plus Palestinian refugees .
They denied them water, demied access to most of the beaches at Gaza, crowded them into one of the most densely packed places on earth ,controlled their movements woth checkpoints as if they were penned cattle and killed them on many occasions.

When the Israelis finally pulled out,because their presence was unsustainable they continued to control its borders,its coastal waters,its air space-and then poured in missiles and bombs.The Israeli military even bombed the beach where kids were playing and blew a family to smithereens.No freedom for those poor people.

The big lie about Palestine being an empty land and Israeli freedom and democracy can no longer wash......it is soaked in the blood of those it has murdered and maimed at Deir Yassin, at Qana, in the poor sad refugee camps in Beirut, in Nablus and Jenin , in Gaza, on the West Bank, in the Golan , in the AL khaim prison , in Hebron and in Jerusalem.
Albert
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 01:09 AM

The present war is not about land disputes. It is the result of attacks on Israel by Hezbollah and Hamas, both of whom hide themselves in the civilian population. People rob banks because that's where the money is.

Your concern for civilian casualties seems not to extend itself to Israeli casualties. They were the first in this particular war. The Israelis--as was noted upthread--have bomb shelters. That accounts for at least some of the disparity in casualty figures. They have those bomb shelters for a reason. Think about it.

BTW, Israel is a country. It has been since 1948.

If you care a wit about casulaties--which you claim to do--than write to Hezbollah and Hamas. Ask them not to attack Israel. That would show some good faith on your part. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 01:01 AM

If you think the only way to settle land disputes is by bombing the innocent civilians, you are war mongers.

What I object to is over-reacting and slaughtering people and destroying their homes. In fact, Israel is committing war crimes against defenseless people. I hold Israel to a higher standard than I do terrorists. Don't you? Any nation that has caused as much grief as Israel has caused the international community will never win in the court of public opinion.

Sure, Israel can defend itself - within reason but the destruction they are causing is cruel and unreasonable.

I think its time we all took a deep breath and read this prophetic poem by Yeats:

Second Coming
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot see the falconer
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere,
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert binds
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

btw - Israel has no claim to self righteousness. Ask the Ethiopian Jews who immigrated to Israel whether or not the Zionists discriminated against them. Ask who gets the best land in Israel?

Seems to me that there are no good guys in this - only innocent civilians being slaughtered and more displaced people and more medical emergencies and hunger. Is this a logical solution?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 10:08 PM

"Israeli casualties in heavy Hizbollah clash - source

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israeli forces took casualties in heavy fighting with Hizbollah guerrillas just inside Lebanon on Thursday, an Israeli military source said.

There were a number of Israeli casualties and one Hizbollah fighter was killed, the source said. Israeli media reported eight soldiers had been wounded."

Here. That should make you feel better. Jaysus, talk about sick . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 10:07 PM

well ... what can ya do .... keep lotsa venom serum handy.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 10:03 PM

She is interested in venom, not facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 10:01 PM

That's what I said ... it's facts.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 09:59 PM

Dianavan:

There you go again. It is Israel's fault that not enough are dying on their side!

Again you ignore how this conflict started and how it is being prosecuted. One side made an attack across Israel's border, then fired missiles out of populated areas. It is when this fact is ignored that it becomes obvious that the view is totally one-sided.

By the way, in your reply to me above, repeated entirely:

robo - you asked, "I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC? "

The answer is no.

I think Jews and Arabs should live together in Palestine and share the holy sites with the whole world. There is absolutely no reason why there has to be a government of Israel or a government of Palestine. There is absolutely no reason they can't live together peacefully and continue their religious practices side by side.   

I think it should be designated as a World Heritage Site.

Anything else is just a power struggle which is waste of time and energy.

If you don't recognize that Israel has borders, then as far as I can tell, by your standards Israel has no right of self defense whatsoever. What then limits what can be done to Israelis?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 09:59 PM

First, that is not what I said. Second, take your haterd elsewhere, and your presumptions.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 09:57 PM

So because you think Hezbollah started it, that justifies a 10:1 body count?

...or that its because Israel has bigger weapons and more bomb shelters?

Thats sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 09:51 PM

If the Hezbollah had superior weaponry, I think it would be a much different picture in the number of causalties on the Israeli side.

Israeli building codes make it mandatory for 'bomb shelters' in all residential aprtment buildings ... (I wonder why) that also accounts for the the lesser casualty figures in Israel.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 09:47 PM

The ratio is about ten to one. So why did Hezbollah and Hamas start it? Not very bright on their part.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 09:45 PM

Robomatic - There are victims on both sides.

There are more victims in Lebanon and Palestine.

Way more.

Self-defence does not include slaughter.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:43 PM

I am waiting for an anti-Hezbollah demonstration in one of the Arab countries. Yep. And waiting, and waiting . . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:38 PM

Some of you are making my argument for me. Of the many times I've posed the question:

I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

I have yet to receive one reply in the affirmative from anyone bleating about the poor Lebanese victims. Mind you, I'm not even asking for acknowledgement that there are Israeli victims out there, or that this latest conflagration was initiated by named Terrorist organizations with political connections on the other side of the borders from Israel. I'm just trying to sound out the folks who are making such a big issue of the 'Arab' victims. In no case, other than CarolC, have I found someone who acknowledges Israel's rights to any borders. So all this whining about the poor victims is a cover for cheering on anyone who wants to wack Israel. There is not other point they wish to make.

Then on top of it all they think they can use as ammo the fact that there's an anti-war protest in Israel! That's what democracy and freedom of expression are all about! In the one country they do not acknowledge!

This to me is an example of the BIG LIE, a position so extreme in once direction, barely acknowledging the humanity of the foe, that it's self-justification is sneaked by the unwary.

simply incredible.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 05:07 PM

You are very confusing. Hezbollah was the aggressor. They just pissed off the wrong people.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 05:05 PM

Reply to Guest
But surely you can't equate the overwhelming violence of the aggressor with the violence of those under attack?
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 04:42 PM

Hezbollah has to be convicted of war crimes too.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,david
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 04:28 PM

I totally agree dianavan and the anti war meeting in Tel Aviv yesterday expressed the same thoughts!
daviv

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 04:06 PM

I think that is a very good question, David.

I was also wondering how people in Lebanon were expected to retreat when the bridges, roads and airports have been bombed? Apparently the Israelis are also re-routing the evacuation ships instead of letting them pass through as quickly as possible?

Why are so many nations expected to evacuate their citizens (at their own expense) so that Israel can destroy Lebanon. Seems to me it would have been better to exchange prisoners and save everybody a lot of time and expense, let alone human misery.

If Israel is not convicted of war crimes, at least they should be billed for the evacuation.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,david
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:40 PM

A minibus carrying refugees fleeing northwards from the bombing of the south was hit today by an Israeli missile. Three were killed and twelve seriously wounded.The scene of the dead and wounded being ferried to a local hospital was filmed by a BBC news team and the story became one of the lead items in the UK s national news.

The BBC reporter ,obviously distressed and angry at the sight of the dead and wounded ,wanted to know how the refugees were supposed to escape from the southern war zone if their cars and buses were going to be bombed and strafed by Israeli warplanes.
david

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 01:18 PM

Two excerpts from this excellent article by the distinguished human rights lawyer and Harvard law professor Alan M. Dershowitz.


"IT SHOULD BE obvious by now that Hizbullah and Hamas actually want the Israeli military to kill as many Lebanese and Palestinian civilians as possible. That is why they store their rockets underneath the beds of civilians; why they launch their missiles from crowded civilian neighborhoods and hide among civilians. They are seeking to induce Israel to defend its civilians by going after them among their civilian "shields." They know that every civilian they induce Israel to kill hurts Israel in the media and the international and human rights communities.

They regard these human shields as shahids - martyrs - even if they did not volunteer for this lethal job. Under the law, criminals who use human shields are responsible for the deaths of the shields, even if the bullet that kills them came from the gun of a policeman.

Israel has every self-interest in minimizing civilian casualties, whereas the terrorists have every self-interest in maximizing them - on both sides. Israel should not be condemned for doing what every democracy would and should do: taking every reasonable military step to stop the terrorists from killing their innocent civilians."

And...

"The very idea that terrorists who use women and children as suicide bombers against other women and children shed crocodile tears over the deaths of civilians they deliberately put in harm's way gives new meaning to the word "hypocrisy." We all know that hypocrisy is a tactic of the terrorists, but it is shocking that others fall for it and become complicit with the terrorists.

Let the blame fall where it belongs: on the terrorists who deliberately seek to kill enemy civilians and give their democratic enemies little choice but to kill some civilians behind whom the terrorists are hiding.

Those who condemn Israel for killing civilians - who are used as human shields and swords for the terrorists - actually cause more civilian deaths and make it harder for Israel to withdraw from the West Bank."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 08:15 AM

BBC Radio has just reported that Lebanese civilians wounded in their homes have been injured for a second time by Israeli missiles while being moved by car to a hospital.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Stop the War; Si
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:54 AM

13th-19th July....Palestine Occupied Territories...

Between the above dates the following has occured in occupied Palestinian territories.

1 26 Palestinians,mostly civilians, have been killed .The total includes 5 children and 2 women murdered by the Israeli Occupation Forces.

2 200 Palestinians including 55 children and 5 women have been wounded by Israeli gunfire.

3 The Israeli Occupation Forces have launched some 27 major attacks into the Gaza and the illegally occupied West Bank.

4 Some 70 houses have been destroyed in Gaza together with community facilities and farmland etc.

5 Israeli warplanes have launched a series of air attacks on the Gaza destroying electricity networks,a power station and transmittors.

Since early June 115 Palestinians have been killed and 550 have been wounded...this total includes 134 children.

6 Israel has fired 124 air to surface missiles and hundreds of artillery shells into one of the most densely packed cities in the world.

7 Bridges,roads and streets have been destroyed and civilians used as human shields.

8 Gaza beach has been attacked and a family wiped out.

9 Five people have been killed during a raid on occupied Nablus.

10 War against defenceless civilians is still a war crime.

Si

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:17 AM

WAR CRIME IN BEIRUT
In Beirut a top United Nations official has said that Israeli air attacks on the city amounted to a war crime.

"It's horrific.I did not know it was block after block of houses,"said
Jan Egeland the UN Emergency Relief Coordinator as he toured the shattered Haret Hreik district of south Beirut.
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:06 AM

Once upon a time there was a man called Uncle Sam, and he had a freind, Cousin Jacob. Now Uncle Sam was a big man about town, and whatever he did, people noticed. Sometimes, he gets involved in some little scuffles around town between people, as the sherrif is asleep most of the time, and even when he is awake, he's an 8 stone weakling nobody listens to.

Uncle Ivan used to be another big important person like Uncle sam, so they never got on, but a few years ago he fell in love with his vodka, and nobody knows when he'll wake up, and there's Chin about as well, who body knows much about, but he's growing up fast.

Now, When cousin Jacob moven into his new little flat, the Neighbours decided they didn't like him, and tried to get kick him out. Now every time Uncle Sam goes over there to try and sort out the mess, everyone starts shouting at him to do something different, and he has to try and stop jacob beating up the neighbours too badly, or they won't let Uncle Sam use their Gas station.

Jacob has got a six shooter, just like Uncle Sam and Ivan and Chin, and one of the neighbours is on his way to the gun shop, so Uncle Sam better do something quick before someone gets really hurt, or they buld the whole building down, but he doesn't know what to do, and Ivans even less use.





Well if the Middle east is a Soap Opera, it might as well sound like one...

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 05:28 AM

There is always alot of mention of injured Palatinain children around here. We've long seen it being the Young being willing to strap on Suicide bombs, so do you really belive they're not also running around with AK 47s?
Or should the soldiers under fire stop to check the birth cetrifiacates of those shooting at them, so they can tell the diffrerence between the 19 year old legitimate target, and the 17 year old 'child'?

The Israeli army are in DPM camoflage, but Hamas, Hezbollah etc camoflage themselves by hididng amongst civilians. They know if they ever openly face the Israli army without this, they would be anihilated in hours. Only by forcing the Israelis to limit themselves can they carry on fighting. If the Israelis didn't care about civilian casulties at all, the first pass over those villages would be cluster bombs, not warning leaflets.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:59 AM

From the Toronto Star:

"Israeli military psychological operations were active, giving residents of 10 villages in the borderlands a deadline of 7 p.m. to vacate their homes in advance of planned air strikes. The IDF has also dropped leaflets and activated automated telephone calling to residential lines in the region conveying similar warnings in Arabic."

I wonder if Hezbollah does this sort of thing before it launches rockets?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:45 AM

Now, why was the guy trying to fire an anti-tank missile form the home of his relatives? More civilian casualties to be mentioned by the 'Socialist' crew I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:20 AM

"No fighting between Israeli ground forces and militants was reported in Gaza on Saturday but Israel fired a few shells at open fields in the east, with no casualties reported.

In fighting in Gaza on Friday, four people were killed - a Hamas activist and three relatives - in an explosion at his home in Gaza City, hospital officials said. Israel said it fired a tank shell at the balcony of the house as the activist was preparing to fire an anti-tank missile at its forces."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:05 AM

BTW, dan or ifor or josh or jon or whoever it is for this hour. You are far behind with your report about the dead Canadians. They died on July 16.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:03 AM

Dianavan:

Thank you for a straight answer to a straight question.

That was more than Guest,dan, Guest,ifor, Guest,Hugo, Guest,jon cared to give me.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:00 AM

John from the Sunshine Coast "...most ethnic groups have their own land."

Well, then, maybe you can tell me why the Kurds don't have their own land? Or the Palestinians, for that matter. How about the Baha'i or the Zoroastrians. How about Native Americans. Maybe they, too, have a right to their own land.

There are already sites within Israel that are designated World Heritage Sites. I didn't express my thoughts very well. To put it bluntly, read this:

" When will Israel become the state of all its citizens and transform itself into a multicultural society in which all its communities, Jewish and non-Jewish, can live in harmony?"

from here: http://mondediplo.com/1997/11/israel

If you want to make New York City a World Heritage Site, you have to meet the criteria. Google it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 02:57 AM

"Village seized

Meanwhile, an Israeli general says soldiers yesterday took control of hilltop village Maroun al-Ras, which overlooks both sides of the border, where six Israeli commandos have been killed in heavy fighting this week.

The Israeli army has also found the body of a soldier who went missing last week during fighting in south Lebanon.

Israel's Army Radio says Defence Minister Amir Peretz has decided to continue with the current military incursions into southern Lebanon close to the border.

Israeli forces have urged residents of 14 villages in south Lebanon to leave ahead of more air raids."


From the news.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 02:53 AM

In Canada we are aware of that.

PS: I had a crab infestation in the 1960s that was lots like you guys.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,dan
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 02:50 AM

Reports from the Lebanon have stated that 8 Canadian citizens have been killed in the bombing together with a Jordanian and an Iraqi and a Sri Lankan .
dan

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 02:37 AM

"In Tel Aviv some 1000 Jewish and Israeli Arabs marched together for peace and to oppose the war."

Bloody good thing they weren't hit by Hezbollah rockets.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 02:34 AM

Jan Egeland,a senior UN official has said that one third of the many Lebanese casualties appear to be children...they have been killed or maimed in their homes or cars or on the streets of their towns and villages.Many have shrapnel wounds to the body.

Around a million Lebanese have now been displace by the bombing and the attack on the Lebanon is not only confined to the south but is taking place right across the country.

The USA is hurrying to send more precision bombs to Israel including 5 tonne laser guided bombs. They will have to arrive soon or the mighty Israeli air force will have run out of targets.

Tens of thousands across the world have marched and demonstrated their opposition to the invasion of the Lebanon and the attack on Gaza. They called for a peaceful alternative to the bombing and the shelling of civilians.

In Tel Aviv some 1000 Jewish and Israeli Arabs marched together for peace and to oppose the war.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 02:03 AM

Dianavan - I accept your comments (22nd @10:27) as benign, well meaning thoughts. But when you say there is no reason for there to be a government of Israel you are wrong. The world is reverting to where most ethnic groups have their own land, as in the break-up of the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia amongst others. Only the Jews could not have their own country in your vision of the world.

Jews, whether you or I or anyone posting here think differently (and I don't) insist they have a place to call there own. A country that is mostly Arab - and that is what you advocate - cannot protect Jews. You may think in absolutes, but if Arabs did not tolerate Jews in the 1920s-40s, when Jews did not control the area. What makes you think they would suddenly be peaceful after 60 years of enmity...sixty years when they could have built a country had they and their Arab bretheren so chosen, instead of trying to destroy Israel. It was not Israel which rejected a two-state solution in 1947/8.

As to making Palestine, or perhaps you mean only Jerusalem and other Holy Sites, into a so-called World Heritage Site, why not make New York such a site; after all, the UN is headquartered there? Why not the city you live in? I'm sure there is something of value there. Why should only Jewish territory be so designated?

Please re-think your solution, dianavan.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 12:59 AM

If you're going to San Francisco be sure to put some flowers in your hair

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 10:27 PM

robo - you asked, "I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC? "

The answer is no.

I think Jews and Arabs should live together in Palestine and share the holy sites with the whole world. There is absolutely no reason why there has to be a government of Israel or a government of Palestine. There is absolutely no reason they can't live together peacefully and continue their religious practices side by side.   

I think it should be designated as a World Heritage Site.

Anything else is just a power struggle which is waste of time and energy.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 08:05 PM

Guest Hugo (and all who think Israel has ruined Lebanon)

Last night I saw a movie entitled "The Kind Woman". It is about a con-man who worms his way into the house of an elderly woman. He and his cohorts make her a prisoner in her own home, sell off her possessions, plan to sell her home, and then kill her. The Palestinean sojourn in Jordan and Lebanon came to mind.

Hugo, if you had ever spoken with Lebanese Christians who immigrated to the USA in the seventies and eighties, you would know what kind of guests the Palestineans really were/are. They set up a de-facto government within southern Lebanon. They set up armed check-points disallowing free movement to native Lebanese. They used the area to attack northern Israel. So I ask you who really devastated Lebanon in the 1980s?

Prior to destabilizing Lebanon, the Palestinean leadership tried to use Jordan for the same purpose, and perhaps try to overthrow King Hussein. He kicked their sorry asses out of the country, in the process killing more Palestineans than Israel has during all its wars since its founding, probably . Does the term Black September jog your memory?

BTW, the con-man in the movie failed; I expect life to imitate art.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 07:25 PM

I guess the message I'm getting from you, Dianavan is twofold:

It doesn't matter when Israeli citizens are killed and terrorized, and put at risk, it does matter when Lebanese civilians are killed and terrorized and put at risk.

If the Israelis are fighting the Hezbollah or the Hamas terrorists, they are forbidden to die in quantities too small. In other words, if there is a death disparity, it's the fault of the Israelis for not dying in quantity enough to make parity.

Now possibly I am wrong. But let me put this question to you:

Dianavan:
I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 07:21 PM

Ya need a programme on this thread . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 07:18 PM

Oh Ifor, haven't heard from you in a while. got trired of one of your other aliases?

US precision bombs are already on their way to Israeli armouries to replenish the rapidly diminishing stocks of Israeli weapons of mass destruction

Thanks to the Bush administrion, we all now know a weapon of mass destruction is defined as a Nuclear, Biologial or Chemical weapon. Clever of Isreal to be using these without anyone noticing, and even cleverer of them to be using them so close to their own borders, on land they are presumably going to occupy as part of the Zionist conspiricy...

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 07:01 PM

"For those unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end of the missiles,bombs and shells raining down on their homes,cars and businesses it must be more like death pangs."

That is certainly how the Israelis feel when Hezbollah rockets hit them.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:54 PM

The Israeli destruction of the Lebanon has been likened by top White House leader Condileeza Rice as being like "birth pang".

She was one of those who was responsible for "Shock and Awe" which unleashed hundreds of US cruise missiles and thousands of bombs on Iraq so she must know what she is talking about.

For those unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end of the missiles,bombs and shells raining down on their homes,cars and businesses it must be more like death pangs.

Rice and Bush are both barking! Both are war criminals for their involvement in the attack on the Lebanon and indeed the invasion of Iraq.

US precision bombs are already on their way to Israeli armouries to replenish the rapidly diminishing stocks of Israeli weapons of mass destruction. The murderous hypocrisy of the grisly twosome is shocking!
ifor