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BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: CarolC Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:49 AM As I said in a previous post, 119 Israeli children have been killed, and more than 700 Palestinian children have been killed since the start of the second intifada. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: Peace Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:50 AM From the site Carol linked to: "13 June, 06: Qassam rocket-fire at the civilian population Over the past weeks, Palestinian groups in the Gaza Strip have intensified the Qassam rocket-fire at Israeli population centers. The Palestinian organizations responsible for the rocket-fire state openly that one of their aims is to kill Israeli civilians. Deliberate attacks on civilians are both immoral and illegal. The willful killing of civilians is classified as a grave breach in the Fourth Geneva Convention and as a war crime that is unjustifiable under any circumstances. Furthermore, Qassam rockets are themselves illegal, even when aimed at military objects, because the rockets are so imprecise, and thus endanger civilians situated in the area in which the rockets are fired or where they land. Therefore, the persons involved in firing the rockets violate the requirements of distinction and proportionality, which are fundamental principles of international humanitarian law. To aggravate matters, many of the rockets are fired from, or near, areas in which civilians live. International humanitarian law prohibits attacks from inside or near the homes of civilians, and from using civilians as human shields. IHL's objective is to reduce to a minimum injury to civilians during an anticipated military response by the other side. The Palestinian organizations that carry out the attacks against Israel from within or near a populated area breach this rule; in doing so, the organizations show their indifference to the loss of Israeli and Palestinian lives." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:51 AM While Jewish refugees from Arab countries received no international assistance, Palestinians received millions of dollars through UNRWA. Initially, the United States contributed $25 million and Israel nearly $3 million. The total Arab pledges amounted to approximately $600,000. For the first 20 years, the United States provided more than two-thirds of the funds, while the Arab states continued to contribute a tiny fraction. Israel donated more funds to UNRWA than most Arab states. The Saudis did not match Israel's contribution until 1973; Kuwait and Libya, not until 1980. As recently as 1994, Israel gave more to UNRWA than all Arab countries except Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Morocco. In 2003, the United States pledging more than $134 million of UNRWA's $326 million budget (41%). Meanwhile, despite their rhetorical support for the Palestinians, all of the Arab countries combined pledged less than $11 million (3%) and $7.8 million of that was from Saudi Arabia, meaning the rest of the Arab world contributed less than $3 million (1%).57 After transferring responsibility for virtually the entire Palestinian population in the West Bank and Gaza Strip to the Palestinian Authority, Israel no longer controlled any refugee camps and ceased contributing to UNRWA. Meanwhile, in addition to receiving annual funding from UNRWA for the refugees, the PA has received billions of dollars in international aid and yet has failed to build a single house to allow even one family to move out of a refugee camp into permanent housing. Given the amount of aid (approximately $5.5 billion since 1993) the PA has received, it is shocking and outrageous that more than half a million Palestinians are being forced by their own leaders to remain in squalid camps. MYTH "The Arab states have always welcomed the Palestinians and done their best to resettle them." FACT Jordan was the only Arab country to welcome the Palestinians and grant them citizenship (to this day Jordan is the only Arab country where Palestinians as a group can become citizens). King Abdullah considered the Palestinian Arabs and Jordanians one people. By 1950, he annexed the West Bank and forbade the use of the term Palestine in official documents.58 Although demographic figures indicated ample room for settlement existed in Syria, Damascus refused to consider accepting any refugees, except those who might refuse repatriation. Syria also declined to resettle 85,000 refugees in 1952-54, though it had been offered international funds to pay for the project. Iraq was also expected to accept a large number of refugees, but proved unwilling. Lebanon insisted it had no room for the Palestinians. In 1950, the UN tried to resettle 150,000 refugees from Gaza in Libya, but was rebuffed by Egypt. After the 1948 war, Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip and its more than 200,000 inhabitants, but refused to allow the Palestinians into Egypt or permit them to move elsewhere. Egypt's handling of Palestinians in Gaza was so bad Saudi Arabian radio compared Nasser's regime in Gaza to Hitler's rule in occupied Europe in World War II.59 In 1952, the UNWRA set up a fund of $200 million to provide homes and jobs for the refugees, but it went untouched. "The Arab States do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it as an open sore, as an affront to the United Nations and as a weapon against Israel. Arab leaders don't give a damn whether the refugees live or die." — former director of UNRWA in Jordan Ralph Galloway, in August 195860 Little has changed in succeeding years. Arab governments have frequently offered jobs, housing, land and other benefits to Arabs and non-Arabs, excluding Palestinians. For example, Saudi Arabia chose not to use unemployed Palestinian refugees to alleviate its labor shortage in the late 1970's and early 1980's. Instead, thousands of South Koreans and other Asians were recruited to fill jobs. The situation grew even worse in the wake of the Gulf War. Kuwait, which employed large numbers of Palestinians but denied them citizenship, expelled more than 300,000 of them. "If people pose a security threat, as a sovereign country we have the right to exclude anyone we don't want," said Kuwaiti Ambassador to the United States, Saud Nasir Al-Sabah (Jerusalem Report, June 27, 1991). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: GUEST,Josh Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:52 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:57 AM Unlike CarolC I do not tell people what to think or how to think just provide evidence that she has not refuted or found untrue. She continues in showing her racism and anti semetism and has the audacity to call me one. I have been there seen it and tried to help, what have you ever done to help the Palestinians CarolC? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: CarolC Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:59 AM Peace, yes, that is happening. But did you happen to notice the numbers of Palestinian civilians killed as compared to Israeli civilians. Hundreds of Israelis, and thousands of Palestinians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: CarolC Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:03 AM Anti-Semitism, Dave? You must be desperate. You're really scraping there. Do you condemn Israel's practice of ethnically cleansing the Palestinians by depriving them of the basic necessities of life? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: GUEST,josh Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:05 AM Its hard to believe,understand or comprehend but those Palestinians who have had their homes stolen,their land grabbed and their cities and towns expropriated would ike them back.The attacks on them go back many decades since well before the foundation of the state of Israel.Israel was founded on a huge crime....the stolen land of the Palestinian people. They have been bullied,murdered,blown up and exiled with impunity. Carolc made the point above that their water has been stolen. Their children have been brutalised.Their freedom of movement has been curtailed .The apartheid wall is surrounding them. They dont like it.They dont want to go to Saudi Arabia.They do want to go home to Jerusalem ,Acre and Haifa.Next year Jerusalem is a Jewish saying ,it also fits the Palestinians. Josh |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: CarolC Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:08 AM And why should they be expected to leave anyway (and move to "Arab" countries? ...Palestinians, by the way, are not, strictly speaking, "Arabs".) Palestine is their home Ethnic cleansing is a racist practice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: GUEST,josh Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:17 AM let those zionist settlers with their big guns go home to New york...the new york police would not putup with their criminality for long...and let the palestinians return to their homes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: Peace Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:42 AM Carol, I know the numbers. I am not a fan of any civilians being killed in wars. It happens, but I DO NOT like it, regardless whether the civilians are killed by Israelis, Americans, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc. Right now about a half million Lebanese have become refugees. That is inexcusable. It is also inexcusable that Hezbollah refuses to withdraw, and also refuses to return the Israeli soldier and refuses to stop firing rockets into Israel. Lebanon has ignored the crisis that was building and it has done so since the UN Resolution two years back. They have refused to search out and stop the terrorist faction in Lebanon. I am very saddened by the deaths of so many people, and I have said so to the Israeli government. I am now composing an e-mail to my own government requesting that they get off their arses and work hard for a cease fire. If I knew how to write the Lebanese government, I would make a similar request of them. (Hezbollah can go eff themselves. They deserve no decency because they have none.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: dianavan Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:50 AM One thing I want to make clear. I don't think Israel has a policy of targetting children but I do think Israeli soldiers target children. As Carol said, 119 Israeli children have died and more than 700 Palestinian children. If you were Palestinian what would you do? I know that if they killed my children, I'd strap on a bomb in a heartbeat. I suggest you look at the sites regarding how these Palestinian children died. It wasn't shrapnel, it wasn't bombs. It was usually a single, well aimed bullet. Do you dispute the findings of the Physicians for Human Rights? That means the Palestinian kids were murdered and the Israeli government condones it by not investigating. You keep asking why Hezbollah does not withdraw from the borders but do you realize that the Lebanese government does not control Hezbollah? Thats the problem. The Lebanese people are being punished for the actions of Hezbollah. The Israelis have no business waging war on a country for the crimes of a few. It is not the Lebanese government launching the rockets! How dare Israel wage war on a country that has not attacked them? Its the same problem the U.S. has. You don't wage war on a country so that you can capture a few criminals. Too many innocent people die. ...and you don't put people in camps and cut off their supply of food and medicine. How can Jews treat people that way? Shame! I once supported Israel. Never again! Like Carol C. said, wait until the foreigners are evacuated. Israel is going to blow Lebanon off the map and that includes innocent civilians and their children. I hope the whole world condemns Israel for their atrocities and their ethnic cleansing. I also hope it is Jews who will call a halt to Israel's overkill. Afterall, its their government. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: Peace Date: 19 Jul 06 - 03:01 AM "It is not the Lebanese government launching the rockets! How dare Israel wage war on a country that has not attacked them?" Answer me this, if you will. Do you think Israel should sit back and allow Hezbollah to launch rockets at civilians in Israel just because the Lebanese government cannot or will not control the guests in its country? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: Richard Bridge Date: 19 Jul 06 - 03:04 AM While the deep roots may help us understand the mutual fear and loathing between on the one hand Israel and the Lebanon and on the other hand Israel and Gaza, it still does not to my mind justify the disparity between the specific attacks by relatively independent movements against Israeli soldiers on the one hand and the responses by the Israeli state against the civilians and infrastructure of Gaza and the Lebanon. The particular attacks, resulting in the kidnap of soldiers, were not themselves "terrorist attacks". They were not themselves attacks on civilians. The Israeli response has been very substantially against civilian persons, and almost wholly against civilian infrastructure. These particular actions and responses seem to my mind different in kind from the widespread tit-for-tat-ism of the region. Imagine that the IRA had shot a British soldier. Would that have justified England blasting the Irish republic back into the stone age? Imagine that the USA had been funding the IRA. Would that have justified England nuking the pentagon? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: Peace Date: 19 Jul 06 - 03:15 AM If Israel had wanted to destry the infrastructure of Lebanon, it would have done so by now, I think. There woould be no electricity in Lebanon. No government buildings. No nothing. The fact is (as was stated earlier in this thread) that Hezbollah is using civilian areas to fire the rockets from. I can't recall who said it, but an American outlaw when asked why he robbed banks replied, "Because that's where the money is." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: CarolC Date: 19 Jul 06 - 03:17 AM Lebanon has ignored the crisis that was building and it has done so since the UN Resolution two years back. They have refused to search out and stop the terrorist faction in Lebanon. They are not in a position to do that, and they never have been. Ironically, it was Israel's covert manipulation of the different ethnicities in Lebanon that caused the civil war there, and that, along with Israel's invasion and occupation of Lebanon is the reason the Lebanese government is unable to do what the UN resolution called for two years back. If the government of Lebanon tried to comply with that resolution, it would cause the dissolution of Lebanon into another bloody civil war. And since you are emphatic about UN resolutions being followed, do you also call for Israel to comply with all UN resolutions that apply to it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: Peace Date: 19 Jul 06 - 03:24 AM Only if Israel is in a position to comply with it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Jul 06 - 03:33 AM I have to say that I'm puzzled by all of this. First, Israel leaves Gaza, which I would think would make the Palestinians very happy - but apparently they responded by increasing attacks on Israel. Now, Israel is attacking Lebanon, which seemed to have settled down in recent years, after years of fighting had ruined a beautiful country. So, we started with the hopeful action, and now we have a situation that's far worse than before Israel left Gaza. When does all this insanity end? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: CarolC Date: 19 Jul 06 - 05:11 AM I have to say that I'm puzzled by all of this. First, Israel leaves Gaza, which I would think would make the Palestinians very happy - but apparently they responded by increasing attacks on Israel. People need to try reading the thread. This one has been addressed probably dozens of times. Israel did remove the settlers. But it did NOT stop dropping bombs on the civilians of Gaza, and it DID continue to kill large numbers of them. And it did NOT stop it's stranglehold on Gaza's borders with the outside world, and also Gaza's air space and shore. The Gazans were very happy about the settlers leaving, but they weren't particularly fond of having their children blown to smithereens by Israeli bombs, or their economy being destroyed by Israel's stranglehold on their borders and air space. Even Palestinians need to eat, you know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: CarolC Date: 19 Jul 06 - 05:12 AM Only if Israel is in a position to comply with it. Does this mean that you also hold Lebanon responsible for complying only if they are in a position to do so? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: CarolC Date: 19 Jul 06 - 05:33 AM what have you ever done to help the Palestinians CarolC I'm trying to help people see the Palestinians as human beings, Dave. I know it's not much, but right now, it's the best I can do. I hope I will be able to make a difference. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: beardedbruce Date: 19 Jul 06 - 07:38 AM dianavan, "I supported Israel until I became aware of the plight of Palestinian children. Who in their right mind would support what Israel has done to them? As far as I'm concerned, Israel has given up its right to exist because of its inhumanity." So, you now can hear about the deliberate targeting of Israeli children by Hamas and other Palestinian suicide bombers- AND tell me how PALESTINE has "given up its right to exist because of its inhumanity." Or are you so bigotted that you cannot admit that the side YOU support is far more guilty, in an organized, purposeful targeting of innocents? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: beardedbruce Date: 19 Jul 06 - 07:40 AM dianavan, "Yes, but the Israeli children were not intentionally targetted. The Palestinian children have been." Obviously, bar mitzvahs and ice cream parlors are primary military tagets, to you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: GUEST Date: 19 Jul 06 - 09:12 AM Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: GUEST,Irwin, writing from Israel Date: 19 Jul 06 - 09:48 AM To CarolC, Dianavan and other assorted Israel-haters: I understand that you are upset by us, here in Israel. Indeed, reading Mudcat, it seems that you are always quite upset by us. One day, it is the brutal repression of the Palestinians, the next day is Lebanon. I'm sure if Mudcat had existed then you would have been upset about the bombing of the nuclear reactor in Baghdad and the Yom Kippur War and the Sinai campaign. It appears that Jews who triumph and who, therefore, live, upset you most extraordinarily. Of course, long before there was an Israel, we - the Jewish People - upset people like you. We upset a German people who elected Hitler and upset an Austrian people who cheered his entry into Vienna and we upset a whole slew of Slavic nations: Poles, Slovaks, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Russians, Hungarians and Romanians. We go back a long, long way in the history of world upset. We upset the Cossacks of Chmielnicki who massacred tens of thousands of us. In 1648-49; we upset the Crusaders who, on their way to liberate the Holy Land, were so upset at Jews that they slaughtered untold numbers of us. For centuries, we upset a Roman Catholic Church that did its best to define our relationship through inquisitions, and we upset the arch-enemy of the Church, Martin Luther, who, in his call to burn the synagogues and the Jews within them, showed an admirable Christian ecumenical spirit. Now CarolC repeats her lies, over and over again, endlessly in thread after thread on Mudcat, on how everything is the fault of the occupation how everything would be so utopian if we only returned to the 1967 borders. Well, CarolC, in 1920 and 1921 and 1929, there were no territories of 1967 to impede peace between Jews and Arabs. Indeed, there was no Jewish State to upset anybody. Nevertheless, the same oppressed and repressed Palestinians slaughtered tens of Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa, Safed and Hebron. Indeed, 67 Jews were slaughtered one day in Hebron in 1929. CarolC, why did the Palestinians massacre 67 Jews in one day in 1929? Could it have been their anger over Israeli aggression in 1967? And why were 510 Jewish men, women and children slaughtered in Arab riots between 1936 and 1939? Was it because Arabs were upset over 1967? The UN Partition Plan in 1947 would have created a "Palestinian State" alongside a tiny Israel. But the Arabs cried "no" and went to war and killed 6,000 Jews. Was that "upset" caused by the aggression of 1967? The poor Palestinians who today kill Jews with explosives and firebombs and stones are part of the same people who when they had all the territories they now demand be given to them for their state, attempted to drive the Jewish state into the sea. The same twisted faces, the same hate, the same cry of "itbach-al- yahud" (Massacre the Jew!) that we hear and see today, were seen and heard then. The same people, the same dream to destroy Israel. What they failed to do yesterday, they dream of today, but we should not "repress" them. CarolC, people like you and Dianavan and ifor and that ilk stood by during the Holocaust, and again in 1948 as seven states launched a war that the Arab League proudly compared to the Mongol massacres. People like you stood by in 1967 as Nasser, wildly cheered by wild mobs in every Arab capital in the world, vowed to drive the Jews into the sea. And you would stand by tomorrow if Israel were facing extinction. And since we know that the Palestinians who chose Hamas as their government, and the Lebanese who cede control of their country to Hezbollah, dream daily of that Extinction. We will do everything we have to do to remain alive in our own land. If that bothers you, CarolC, well here is one Jew in Israel who could not care less.
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: freda underhill Date: 19 Jul 06 - 10:04 AM According to a poll in the Australian Jewish News, 63% of Australian Jews responding think Israel should negotiate with the Palestinians and Hezbollah to help free the Israeli soldiers. They would seem to be a lot more reasonable than irwin in his last post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 19 Jul 06 - 10:26 AM According to polls? Most people who are asked to comment on a situation will answer directly "I prefer negotiation to military action" they are after all very reasonable people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: freda underhill Date: 19 Jul 06 - 10:51 AM according to trolls, oops according to polls, most people believe they are very reasonable people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 19 Jul 06 - 11:25 AM Carol C. has written, either directly or obliquely, several times on this thread that Israelis and/or the pro-Israeli posters believe that Israeli lives are more valuable than Palestinean lives. I believe I was so accused several days ago. Well, I have reviewed most of the comments, here, and I see no such comments. However, there is one group that does believe Israeli lives are more valuable than those of Palestineans...Palestineans. Based on the hostage/prisoner exchange Hamas & Hizbullah propose, each Israeli is worth about 500 Palestineans. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: beardedbruce Date: 19 Jul 06 - 11:41 AM speaking of children... (from late 2002) "From the outset of the current Palestinian intifada two years ago, children and teenagers have assumed an integral role. Regrettably, this role is not adequately addressed in the recent Amnesty International report entitled "Killing the Future Children in the Line of Fire." Knowing that Israeli soldiers are ordered not to shoot live ammunition at children, and face disciplinary procedures or court martial for breaches, Palestinian snipers hide among youngsters or use them as human shields. Three recent developments are also notable: Yasser Arafat's deputy, Abu Mazen, admitted to a Kuwaiti newspaper in June that Palestinian children have been paid 5 shekels (about $1) for every pipe bomb they throw. Children have been increasingly mobilized during 2002 for homicide attacks; their parents have received cash payments from the Palestinian Authority, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia. The attempt at a cover-up: The Palestinian Journalists' Association has warned members that they would be punished if they photographed armed children. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sacrificing Children On March 30, 2002, a 16-year-old Palestinian girl named Ayat Akhras walked into a Jerusalem supermarket and detonated a bomb concealed under her clothing, killing two Israelis and wounding 22 others. On April 23, three teenagers - Anwar Hamduna, Yusef Zakut, and Abu Nada - from Gaza, attempted to crawl under the perimeter fence and attack the residents of the nearby Jewish community of Netzarim, only to be shot dead by guards. For over a month, Palestinian children as young as ten barricaded themselves in Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity, alongside Palestinian gunmen. In May, a 16-year-old Palestinian boy was arrested in a taxi near Jenin with a suicide bomb on his body. On June 13, 2002, a 15-year-old Palestinian girl, arrested for throwing a firebomb at IDF soldiers, admitted during interrogation that she had previously been recruited as a suicide terrorist. On July 9, 2002, Israeli security forces arrested another 15-year-old Palestinian girl who admitted to having agreed to carry out a suicide1 attack in Israel. These are some of the latest developments in the intifada, an unprecedented wave of ongoing attacks that has roiled the region for two years. From the outset, Palestinian children and teenagers have assumed an integral role. Although some elements in Palestinian society oppose using children, or at least their children, in "martyrdom" operations, these voices remain isolated. Just as in previous violent episodes, many Palestinians misuse their children in various ways. Early in the current intifada, children acted as decoys, burning tires and shooting slingshots to attract the television cameras while making it harder for the world to identify the gunmen lying in ambush. Knowing that Israeli soldiers are ordered not to shoot live ammunition at children, Palestinian snipers hide among groups of youngsters, on rooftops or in alleys, often using kids as shields when aiming at exposed IDF soldiers. On some occasions, these gunmen apparently have inadvertently shot Palestinian children from behind. Recently, Abu Mazen, a senior Arafat aide who is the Secretary General of the PLO executive, criticized the tactics of terrorist organizations in Gaza. Abu Mazen told a Kuwaiti newspaper interviewer, "I am against little children going out to die. It is a terrible thing. At least 40 children in Rafah [in the Gaza Strip] lost their arm from the throwing of Bangalore torpedoes [a form of pipe bomb]. They received 5 shekels [approximately $1] in order to throw them."2 Also, IDF soldiers who participated in the Defensive Shield operation reported that children were sometimes left behind to trigger booby-traps that terrorists set for troops. But why are these young people willing to throw away their lives? Who led them to believe that assuming dangerous roles in the violence will result in improving their personal, family, and political situation? How did the celebration of violence against Israelis become so deeply ingrained in Palestinian culture? What cause, no matter how deeply held, can motivate a society to sacrifice its children, its future? A Family's Badge of Pride The pressure to sacrifice oneself in the intifada often originates at home. Stoked by Arafat's speeches lauding the role of children in the struggle and the importance of martyrdom, many Palestinian parents have come to view the role of youth in the uprising as useful and, indeed, honorable. Thus, after Ahmat Omar Abu Selmia, a 15-year-old, was killed on his way to attack the Israeli community of Dugit, his father celebrated his "martyrdom" at a street festival attended by about 200 men. Martyrs - people who die for the sake of jihad (holy war) and Islam - are held in such high regard by the Palestinian people that at times parents accept the death of their children as a badge of pride. Parents of toddlers proudly recount their little children saying they want to become martyrs, and a father of a 13-year-old said, "I pray that God will choose him" to be a martyr. One mother told a journalist from the (London) Times, "I am happy that he [her 13-year-old son] has been martyred. I will sacrifice all my sons and daughters (12 in all) to Al-Aqsa and Jerusalem." A photograph in the Jerusalem Post on February 26, 2002, showed Palestinian fathers teaching a group of toddlers and young children to properly hold assault rifles while trampling on American and Israeli flags. Another reason Palestinian parents allow and even encourage their children to get involved is the financial incentive offered to families of "martyrs." Thus, the Palestinian Authority furnishes a cash payment - $2,000 per child killed and $300 per child wounded.3 Saudi Arabia announced that it had pledged $250 million as its first contribution to a billion-dollar fund aimed at supporting the families of Palestinian martyrs. In addition, the Arab Liberation Front, a Palestinian group loyal to Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, pays generous bounties to the injured and the families of the dead according to the following sliding scale: $500 for a wound; $1,000 for disability; $10,000 to the family of each martyr; and $25,000 to the family of every martyr suicide bomber - lavish sums, given the chronic unemployment and poverty of the majority of the Palestinian residents of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. A Society that Sanctifies Death Violent death is sanctified throughout the Palestinian areas. The streets are plastered with posters glorifying the exploits of individual suicide bombers. Children trade martyr cards, purchased at their local shops, instead of pokemon or baseball cards, and necklaces with pictures of martyrs are also very popular.4 One favorite wall slogan reads: "Beware of death by natural causes."5 Suicide bombing is considered a source of neighborhood pride, as streets are named after the perpetrators of these atrocities. There is even a band named "The Martyrs," whose lyrics espouse the virtues of "sacrificing yourself for Allah." Under these cultural influences, many children readily admit that they want to become suicide bombers. Some draw pictures and fantasize about the day when they achieve their goal. The young are taught that, as suicide bombers, they will ascend to a paradise of luxury staffed by 72 virgins waiting to gratify the martyrs as they arrive. An American psychiatrist with 22 years of experience studying and treating suicidal patients stresses that suicide bombers - both children and adults - are "tools used by terrorist leaders" with "a whole culture encouraging [them] to die."6 The Palestinian Authority - the Palestinian entity established, empowered, funded, and armed to carry out the Oslo peace process - uses diverse vehicles to incite the youth to participate in anti-Israeli street violence and even outright terrorism. Incitement in Palestinian society is both authoritative and omnipresent. Palestinian columnist Ashraf Al-Arjami agrees that the patriotism of Palestinian youth is being exploited, and the schools and mosques under Palestinian control are influencing the children. The campaign to incite children emanates straight from the top of the Palestinian Authority. Documents signed with the emblem of the Palestinian Authority and Yasser Arafat's office feature inciting words referring to Israelis as "land plunderers" and "creators of international terror." Arafat himself refers to the children as "the generals of the stones," playing to their pride and young egos. In a Palestinian Authority-run summer camp, a New York Times reporter observed campers staging the kidnapping of Israeli leaders, stripping and assembling Kalashnikov assault rifles, and learning techniques for ambushes.7 One Palestinian Authority television program clip, aimed at young viewers, features a boy killed in Gaza arriving in heaven where there are beaches, waterfalls, and a Ferris wheel. He is saying, "I am not waving goodbye, I am waving to tell you to follow in my footsteps." On the accompanying soundtrack a song plays, "How pleasant is the smell of martyrs, how pleasant the smell of land, the land enriched by the blood, the blood pouring out of a fresh body." In an October 2001 interview in a Palestinian Authority-controlled newspaper, Youssef Jamah, the Palestinian Minister of Holy Sites, stated on Egyptian television, "The suicide bombings are a legitimate means through which the Palestinians fight the enemy....The attacks are the command of Allah." Although some Islamic authorities oppose suicide bombing, Sheik 'Ikrimi Sabri, the Palestinian Authority-appointed mufti of Jerusalem, said, "There is no doubt that a child [martyr] suggests that the new generation will carry on the mission with determination. The younger the martyr - the greater and the more I respect him." Not surprisingly, senior Palestinian Authority officials attend the funerals of the "martyrs." Educating the "Martyrs of Tomorrow" Even in the Palestinian Authority's public schools, incitement to violence plays a major role. Needless to say, interest in reconciliation with Israel is notably absent. The Palestinian Authority's Deputy Minister of Education, Naim Abu Humus, called on school administrators to dedicate the first class to praying for the souls of those killed during the intifada, saying, "Today we glorify Al-Aqsa and Palestine, and remember the Palestinian martyrs." Signs on the walls of kindergartens proclaim their students as "the shaheeds [martyrs] of tomorrow," and elementary school teachers and principals commend their young students for wanting to "tear their [Zionists'] bodies into little pieces and cause them more pain than they will ever know." Posters in university classrooms proudly remind the world that the Palestinian cause is armed with "human bombs." Sheik Hassan Yosef, a leading Hamas member, summarized this process of incitement by saying, "we like to grow them from kindergarten through college." Palestinian Brig. Gen. Mahmoud M. Abu Marzoug reminded a group of 10th grade girls in Gaza City that "as a martyr, you will be alive in Heaven." After the address, a group of these girls lined up to assure a Washington Post reporter that they would be happy to carry out suicide bombings or other actions ending in their deaths.8 These factors cumulatively explain why young Palestinians are so excited at the prospect of "martyrdom." "When I become a martyr, give out Kannafa [sweet cake]," one 14-year-old boy was reported to have told his friends in the days prior to his death in the riots. A 12-year-old boy who died in the fighting was reported to have so yearned for martyrdom that he wrote his own death announcements on the walls of his home. An injured 13-year-old boy was reported as having said, "My goal is not to be injured, but rather something higher - martyrdom." A 13-year-old girl from Egypt tried to sneak into Gaza in order to "join the Palestinian children in anything, even throwing stones." A week earlier, a 12-year-old boy was stopped at the Israeli border after attempting the same thing. But why does the Palestinian Authority encourage Palestinian children to become involved in this violence? Clearly, sympathy for the Palestinian cause has been generated as Western media reports have often highlighted instances in which Palestinian children have been killed or injured by Israeli troops or policemen. These knee-jerk reports have generated criticism of Israeli policies, but few in the Western world have thought through the chaos they see on the television news to consider whose interests are served by the casualties. Shoved into the Front Lines There seems to be no end to the list of Palestinian children killed after being shoved into the front lines of the conflict by the Palestinian leadership. In February 2002, Nora Shalhoob, a 16-year-old Palestinian girl, was killed while charging a group of Israeli soldiers at a military checkpoint with a knife in her hand. Andaleeb Taqataqah was only 17 when she was recruited by a terror squad and sent to her death in a suicide attack on a crowded Jerusalem market on April 12, 2002. As a result of the increasing frequency of such attacks, two points have become clear. The first is that Palestinian children and teenagers are lining up to throw their lives away, and the second is that there is an across-the-board effort by Palestinian leaders, parents, clerics, and educators to turn youthful energy into deadly violence. Contrary to the above-mentioned Amnesty International's report, that apparently seeks to equate the killings of Palestinian and Israeli children, numerous dissimilarities cry out for attention. To mention just a few: Israeli parents are not paid rewards by their government or foreign governments when their children are wounded or killed. IDF soldiers do not use Israeli children as human shields when they initiate a firefight with Palestinian gunmen. There is no doctrine in Jewish law akin to that guaranteeing Muslim shaheeds that, after death, bountiful rewards await them in paradise. Israeli schools and synagogues never brainwash children to undertake life-threatening violence against Palestinian civilians. The government of Israel does not have thousands of armed terrorists on its payroll. Israeli parents have never been quoted in the media urging their children to sacrifice their lives for a political or religious cause. Nor do they send their children to the front to riot before the television cameras. Israeli summer camps do not indoctrinate children to kill or instruct them on how to ambush or use firearms. Israeli television children's programming never features teachers smiling and clapping hands as their pupils sing of their intent to become martyrs. Israeli children do not collect or exchange martyr cards, or listen to music by a group called "The Martyrs." Senior Israeli political and religious figures do not laud, or pander to, children who engage in violence. And most importantly, Israeli soldiers do not intentionally target Palestinian children (or others not involved in the violence), on buses, in restaurants, discos, etc. Recently, six children armed with M-16 and Kalashnikov rifles took part in a pro-Iraqi rally in the Gaza Strip. Exposed to such shocking images, including those of Palestinian toddlers wearing mock suicide bomber's vests, Western public opinion began to shift. Revulsion increasingly replaced curiosity. But rather than fulfill its professional obligation to publicize newsworthy and controversial issues, in August 2002 the Palestinian Journalists' Association warned its members that it would punish any journalist or photographer who took photographs of armed or masked Palestinian children. This intimidating message, which was faxed to journalists and news agencies, stated that Palestinian journalists employed by foreign news agencies are even responsible for making sure their colleagues act according to the warning. The association further added that it would not defend any journalists that do not implement the new policy, should the Palestinian Authority decide to punish them.9 Blatant child abuse of this kind, and efforts to cover it up, would not be tolerated anywhere else in the civilized world. Where are the children's welfare advocates to condemn the practices that poison the minds and imperil the bodies of young Palestinians? " |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: GUEST,Hugo Date: 19 Jul 06 - 11:43 AM "We will do everything we have to to remain alive in our own land"say Irwin from Israel The terrible events in Israel/Palestine is that the land which the Zionists claim as theirs was stolen by force of arms from the Palestinians. To get that land they had to massacre, terrorise and expel many of the Palestinians who are now scattered across the West Bank,the Middle East and much of the rest of the world. The Palestinians who remained in Israel are now treated as second class citizens and the Zionists wish they too would piss off. The West Bank is not Israel.It is an illegally occupied territory .To hold it the Zionists have settled paramilitary thugs there ,armed to the teeth, who bully,shoot and beat up the indiginous Palestinians.Moreover,they contimue to steal land ,water,and bulldoze the houses of Palestinians. Irwin ,a great and terrible wrong was done to the Jewish people in Europe in the war with 6 million murdered.The Palestinians were innocent of that crime.But they continue to be mistreated in a most brutal and savage way by the Israeli state which is under the control of extreme zionists. By the way the record of Zionists in the war is is a very dubious one and would need a thread for itself on Mudcat. It is also true that there are many anti Zionist Jews who are appalled at the suffering and brutality being inflicted on the Palestinians .Many of these Jews are in Israel and many more live across the world and are actively opposing the Zionist bombers and thugs. In Canada this week hundreds of muslims,Jews and secularists protested at the attack on Lebanon.Good!It shows that people from a variety of backgrounds can work together for peace and social justice. Hugo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: beardedbruce Date: 19 Jul 06 - 11:52 AM ... from 2000... "Executive Summary Watching the television coverage of the daily Palestinian riots, known as the Al-Aqsa intifada,1 one is immediately struck by the near total absence of adults. Indeed, most of those hurling Molotov cocktails and stones are teenagers; many are even younger. Intoxicated by the challenge of becoming a hero, lacking the maturity to calculate the dangers they are assuming, these young people are easily motivated to place themselves in harm's way. Since the recent disturbances began, media reports have often highlighted instances in which Palestinian children have been killed or injured by Israeli troops or policemen. These reports have generated much criticism of Israeli policies, although few in the Western world have thought through the chaos they see on the news to consider whose interests are served by the violence. Even fewer have access to the information necessary to place in legal and historical context these weeks of death and disorder. The appearance of Palestinian children in these riots, it will be demonstrated, is not accidental. The Palestinian Authority has intentionally mobilized Palestinian children to man the front line in its struggle against Israel, frequently using them as shields to protect Palestinian gunmen. This mobilization of Palestinian youth has, moreover, been facilitated by the long-term impact of Palestinian Authority (PA) curricula, government-controlled media, and summer camp programs, which indoctrinated the youth for armed confrontation with Israel even prior to the current crisis. The utilization of children in armed conflicts has been increasingly condemned by the international community. It is barred by the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and recent UN Security Council Resolution 1261, which specifically described the use of children as soldiers as a "violation of international law." Moreover, the Palestinian leadership, in a classic case of bad faith, accuses Israel of committing human rights violations for the fatalities while evading its own responsibility for the orchestrated appearance of children at the front lines of the conflict. This constitutes a cynical exploitation of human rights concerns. While the Palestinian Authority is not formally bound by international human rights conventions, it nonetheless is required by the Oslo agreements, which PA Chairman Yasser Arafat signed, to honor "internationally accepted norms of human rights and the rule of law."2 This study examines the causes of this phenomenon and its repercussions. In particular, it offers suggestions to protect Palestinian children from the physical and other dangers inherent in politically and religiously motivated street violence. Creating Martyrs for the Media The visuals of a bleeding Palestinian child surrounded by screaming relatives all but obviate the need for most people to consider why and how the child was in harm's way in the first instance. The tragic death of Mohammed Al-Dura, the twelve-year-old from Gaza who was caught in the cross-fire and shot dead in his father's arms,3 mobilized sentiment around the world to condemn Israel for using excessive force.4 Claims were made that the besieged Israel Defense Forces (IDF) position from which the shooting likely came had intentionally targeted the boy and his father, even though the soldiers were returning fire at Palestinian gunmen a few meters away from Mohammed and his father. Whatever the circumstances of Mohammed's death, it is clear that a number of Palestinian children have been killed by Israeli gunfire and many more injured. Estimates of these child casualties, however, have varied. CBS News' "Sixty Minutes" reported on October 24 that 40 Palestinian children had been killed; 5 an Amnesty International report dated October 19 stated that 27 children had lost their lives.6 A Physicians for Human Rights team concluded that 23 Palestinian minors under the age of 17 had been killed through October 29.7 Looking only at children under the age of 13, Ha'aretz columnist Ze'ev Schiff concluded that 6 to 8 children had died.8 The Palestine Red Crescent Society asserted that prior to October 27, 43 Palestinians below the age of 20 had been killed; within that group 13 were below the age of 16.9 The loss of a single child is a terrible tragedy, but clearly the divergent claims over the numbers of child casualties is indicative of the politically explosive nature of this aspect of the Al-Aqsa intifada. This data certainly provided an opportunity for Yasser Arafat who, addressing the Emergency Arab Summit in Cairo, appealed for help to stop the "'genocide and massacre' of his people armed with stones."10 Wielding their political clout at the United Nations, the Palestinians prevailed on the UN Human Rights Commission to condemn Israel for "crimes against humanity."11 Even the UN Security Council approved a completely one-sided resolution condemning Israel.12 Although these accusations are transparently rhetorical, there is little doubt that, by their deliberate misuse of children, the Palestinian cause has attracted new sympathy. "Improved" Palestinian Tactics The current violence has given the Palestinians the opportunity to improve on their widespread use of children in the original intifada of a decade ago and in other organized rioting during the interim years, such as in Hebron.13 This time the children act as bait, burning tires and shooting slingshots, to attract the television cameras and distract the IDF, in tandem with well-armed Palestinian gunmen in ambush positions.14 Since the Palestinian public knows that Israeli soldiers are ordered not to shoot live ammunition at children, they act as shields to protect Palestinian snipers who shoot to kill any exposed members of the IDF. When the youth rush forward throwing stones and Molotov cocktails, Palestinian snipers on rooftops and in alleys take aim at the IDF, on some occasions actually shooting Palestinian children from behind.15 Alternatively, according to IDF sources, Palestinian gunmen have shot from within a rioting crowd of civilians.16 The extent of the violence directed at Israel is illustrated by statistics from the month of October 2000. Palestinians perpetrated 599 shooting incidents at military,17 police, and civilian targets.18 Twenty-six bombs were detonated with intent to harm or kill Israelis,19 and 400 Molotov cocktails were thrown at Israelis. In all there were 3,209 violent disturbances including 1,397 stone throwing incidents.20 As a consequence, six Israeli civilians and seven soldiers were killed, and 51 civilians and 139 soldiers were injured.21 A cynical use of youngsters and children was repeatedly observed at the Netzarim junction in the Gaza Strip where buildings erected under the pretence of housing members of the PLO naval forces and their families were in fact used as shooting posts against an adjacent Israeli compound. The buildings were also used by the PA to assemble children to throw Molotov cocktails, gas canisters, and stones at IDF soldiers.22 Even the ambulances that wait to pick up the injured often serve a secondary (illegally under international law23) role -- to transport gunmen, Molotov cocktails, and rocks to the confrontation with the knowledge that Israel will not fire on these "medical vehicles."24 This is a clear violation of one of the fundamental precepts of humanitarian law and places at risk the immunity generally granted to medical services. After Palestinian gunmen inside the Red Crescent Headquarters in Ramallah opened fire on the IDF; and on the same day a Red Crescent ambulance was used in a nearby shooting attack, the IDF Spokesman issued this statement: "The IDF harshly condemns and views seriously shooting attacks toward an Israeli community from a Red Crescent building and ambulance, a body that is meant to offer humanitarian and medical assistance."25 In both cases the IDF refrained from responding.26 One major difference between the current Al-Aqsa intifada and its predecessor, the original intifada of a decade ago, is the enormous increase in Palestinian firepower, primarily in the form of tens of thousands of assault rifles.27 Among the heavier weaponry in the hands of the Palestinians are shoulder-fired missiles,28 20 mm anti-aircraft cannon,29 and heavy machine guns. An anti-tank missile was fired at IDF troops at the Karnei crossing point between Israel and Gaza on October 31, 2000.30 New terrorist tactics have also been used, as with the case of the suicide bicycle rider who blew himself up alongside an IDF outpost in Gaza.31 The basic tactics of the intifadists, however, are not new. During the previous intifada, Palestinian journalist Daoud Kuttab extolled the usefulness of children-rioters in the Journal of Palestine Studies: When the danger alarm is sounded the young people of the neighborhood divide into three teams. The first is composed of lookouts...the second team is basically defensive in nature; its main task is to cover the offensive team...the most courageous. After advancing to the Israeli position and throwing stones, the defensive team goes into action to cover the retreating youths. When the offensive team starts to retreat, it is the job of the defensive team to throw a barrage of stones at the soldiers.32 The similarities of these violent tactics to childhood games like "tag" is not coincidental; the Palestinian leadership discovered a way to channel youthful energy into the uprising. At that time Professor William V. O'Brien of Georgetown University noted that, "[i]t appears that a substantial number, if not the majority, of troops of the intifada are young people, including elementary schoolchildren. They are engaged in throwing stones and Molotov cocktails and other forms of violence."33 During that uprising a Palestinian leaflet declared, "Every child must carry the stone and throw it at the occupier. The Molotov cocktail heroes of all ages must burn a fire in the face of the enemy and fight him face-to-face."34 This is but one example of the propaganda which has chronically been used to incite Palestinian children to participate in violent and dangerous street battles. Incitement by Arafat and his Palestinian Authority Thanks to their empowerment under the Oslo peace process, the Palestinian Authority has new and varied vehicles to motivate their youth to participate in anti-Israeli street violence. Television and radio stations, school textbooks, a range of newspapers and magazines, and even the summer camp curriculum are all, directly or indirectly, under the control of the PA. Television broadcasts frequently include what in many Western countries would be deemed "hate speech." On July 2, 1998, in derogation of its commitments to combat incitement under the interim peace agreements (discussed below), a Palestinian television children's show called "The Children's Club," similar in its basic structure to "Sesame Street," aired an episode in which young boys with raised arms chanted "We are ready with our guns; revolution until victory; revolution until victory."35 On the same show, an 8-year-old boy announced to the audience (a group of children), "I come here to say that we will throw them to the quiet sea. Occupiers, your day is near, then we will settle our account. We will settle our claims with stones and bullets."36 Also on the Children's Club program, on February 8, 1998, a girl who could not have been more than ten years old declared that she wanted to "turn into a suicide warrior" in Jerusalem.37 During the past month, the Palestinian electronic media has run near-continuous coverage of riots and funerals. The standard fare on the Voice of Palestine radio station is for programs to open with details of martyrs' deaths and burials sandwiched between patriotic and Islamic songs with martial melodies. A particularly popular song on Voice of Palestine, which is broadcast on television as well, features a father singing about his son as a martyr -- the son being Mohammed Al-Dura mentioned above.38 The official media broadcast the sermon of the PA-appointed cleric at the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem who called for his followers to "eradicate the Jews from Palestine."39 Also aired was a live sermon by Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, a member of the PA-appointed Fatwa Council and former acting Rector of the Islamic University in Gaza, who called for Israelis to be humiliated, tortured, and butchered.40 He continued: "Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them. Wherever you are, kill those Americans who are like them -- and those that stand by them."41 Indicative of the official support the Palestinian Authority is giving to the utilization of children in the struggle against Israel are the words of the PA-appointed Mufti of Jerusalem, Sheik 'Ikrimi Sabri, in an October 28 interview with the Egyptian weekly Al-Ahram Al-Arabi: Question: What do you feel when you pray [for the souls of the martyrs]? Sabri: I feel the martyr is lucky because the angels usher him to his wedding in heaven.... Question: Is it different when the martyr is a child? Sabri: Yes, it is. It's hard to express it in words. There is no doubt that a child [martyr] suggests that the new generation will carry on the mission with determination. The younger the martyr -- the greater and the more I respect him.... Question: Is this why the mothers cry with joy when they hear about their sons' death? Sabri: They willingly sacrifice their offspring for the sake of freedom. It is a great display of the power of belief. The mother is participating in the great reward of the Jihad to liberate Al-Aqsa.42 Other Palestinian institutions are also imbued with incitement. A New York Times reporter observed a PA-run summer camp program where the 25,000 campers stage the kidnapping of Israeli leaders, strip and assemble Kalachnikov assault rifles, and learn the art of ambushing.43 They are given camouflage uniforms and imitation guns.44 They parade and practice infiltration, crawling on their stomachs through obstacles. Training children for the armed struggle reminds one of the terrible price children have paid in other Middle Eastern wars. During the Iran-Iraq war, the Iranian government recruited tens of thousands of child soldiers, dubbed "Revolutionary Guards."45 Sent to the front to clear minefields and attack fortified Iraqi positions, these usually unarmed children faced near certain death.46 They were told that the little plastic key around their neck would open the gates to eternal paradise. Even in the public schools, politics seem to be playing a major role in education. For example, the PA's Deputy Minister of Education, Naim Abu Humus, called on school administrators to dedicate the first class for praying for the souls of those killed during the Al-Aqsa intifada, saying "Today we glorify Al-Aqsa and Palestine, and remember the Palestinian martyrs."47 President Clinton, in a speech in late 1998, referred to "education for peace" as "the most important element" to make peace "sustainable."48 But Palestinian interest in reconciliation with Israel is notably absent from the Palestinian textbooks, even in the indigenous Palestinian textbooks, which this year partially replaced the old Jordanian textbooks previously used in their public schools. A sixth grade civics book portrays Israel as an aggressor and explains to the children that, "[t]he Palestinian people were expelled from their land as a result of the Israeli occupation of Palestine, and have been subjected to massacres and banishment from their land."49 The map in the book makes no reference to the existence of Israel adjoining the PA territories; nor does it include major Israeli cities such as Tel Aviv.50 In fact, the only Israeli cities referenced are ones which previously had large Palestinian populations.51 The message from the top, from PA Chairman Arafat, is unequivocal. Arafat ruthlessly encourages the involvement of Palestinian children in violence, referring to them as "the generals of the rocks"52 and boasting after the IDF attack on Fatah offices, "[the attack] cannot shake one eyelash of a Palestinian child holding a stone to defend holy Jerusalem."53 Arafat plays to their pride; he would have them believe they are "generals" and heroes when they are really cannon-fodder in the media campaign to discredit Israel. As a (London) Times reporter aptly described: But can Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat control the children?...Since birth, Palestinian children have been pumped full of religious fundamentalism which promises paradise for those who die for the cause of free Palestine....Approving or not, the Palestinian authorities have done nothing to stop children playing with their lives. Let's face it, dead kids make great telly.54 These examples of incitement may explain why a 13-year-old girl from Egypt tried to sneak into Gaza in order to "join the Palestinian children in anything, even throwing stones." The girl's father, Gamel Mabrouk, explains, "[t]his was over-enthusiasm in response to what they have seen on television." A week earlier, a 12-year-old boy was stopped at the Israeli border after attempting the same thing. A Palestinian mental health official confirmed that Palestinian children are chiefly motivated by what they see on Palestinian television: "the role of information is an additional factor behind the will of children to die the death of a saint, for they see on television their relatives as martyrs or wounded and hear the calls of praise that they receive."55 Clearly, PA government-controlled media play a significant role in both the long-term and immediate motivation of children to place themselves in life-threatening situations. Negating the Raison D'etre of the Peace Process The new Palestinian violence undermines not only the spirit of the Oslo peace process but its raison d'etre -- to resolve differences through negotiation rather than violence. As Arafat proclaimed in his September 9, 1993, letter to Yitzhak Rabin: The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and all other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations, and discipline violators.56 This was his price of admission into the U.S.-brokered and funded peace process. In return, Rabin agreed to recognize the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people and commence negotiations with what previously had been deemed a terrorist organization.57 The problem of incitement to violence has been repeatedly addressed in the interim peace agreements. For example, the Cairo Agreement, signed by Arafat in 1994, obligates the PA to "foster mutual understanding and tolerance" and "abstain from incitement, including hostile propaganda [and]...take legal measures to prevent such incitement by any organizations, groups or individuals."58 The Preamble of the Oslo II interim peace agreement, signed by Arafat in 1995, reaffirms the parties' "mutual commitment to act, in accordance with this Agreement, immediately, efficiently and effectively against acts or threats of terrorism, violence or incitement, whether committed by Palestinians or Israelis."59 Oslo II also contains provisions which obligate the Palestinian Legislative Council to "foster mutual understanding and tolerance and shall accordingly abstain from incitement, including hostile propaganda...and...take legal measures to prevent incitement by any organizations, groups or individuals within their jurisdiction."60 This is followed by the requirement that "Israel and the Council will ensure that their respective educational systems contribute to the peace between the Israeli and Palestinian peoples and to peace in the entire region, and will refrain from the introduction of any motifs that could adversely affect the process of reconciliation."61 The Palestinian police's "duties and functions" include "combating terrorism and violence, and preventing incitement to violence."62 However, since the Al-Aqsa intifada began, the Palestinian police, whose salaries, assault rifles, training, and uniforms were paid for by Western donors, have done absolutely nothing to stop incitement; many have even trained their rifles on the IDF. Thereafter, article 2(b) of the Note for the Record of the Hebron Protocol, signed by Arafat in 1997, reiterated the obligation of the Palestinians to "preventing incitement and hostile propaganda as specified in Article XXII" of the Oslo II agreement.63 The endemic problem of the PA's use of textbooks that incite to violence prompted the inclusion of a separate article in the Wye Agreement, signed by Arafat in 1998.64 Section II, A(3), captioned "Preventing Incitement," states: a. Drawing on relevant international practice and pursuant to Article XXII(1) of the Interim Agreement and Note for the Record, the Palestinian side will issue a decree prohibiting all forms of incitement to violence or terror, and establishing mechanisms for acting systematically against all expressions or threats of violence or terror. This decree will be comparable to the existing Israeli legislation which deals with the same subject. b. A US-Palestinian-Israeli committee will meet on a regular basis to monitor cases of possible incitement to violence or terror and to make recommendations and reports on how to prevent such incitement. The Israeli-Palestinian and U.S. sides will each appoint a media specialist, a law enforcement representative, an educational specialist, and a current or former elected official to the committee.65 Although the trilateral committee did meet, the Palestinian appointees resisted efforts to edit their textbooks. An editorial in the English language Palestinian newspaper Jerusalem Times, entitled "No Apologies for the Curriculum," proclaimed "[t]he children should know their history well, whether or not it pleases the world," and continued defiantly, "[w]e should not care if our curriculum does not please Israel."66 In the newspaper Al-Quds, a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council denigrated the anti-incitement provisions of the Wye Agreement as "the most dangerous as it touches on the national ideology and national consciousness."67 In the most recent Sharm el-Sheikh interim agreement, signed by Arafat in 1999, which intended to implement the outstanding commitments of the previously signed agreements, the PA rededicated itself to: "8(a) ...immediately and effectively respond to the occurrence or anticipated occurrence of an act of terrorism, violence or incitement and shall take all necessary measures to prevent such an occurrence."68 But as demonstrated, none of the anti-incitement provisions in the interim peace agreements, each one signed by Arafat, have been honored in practice. The Parents' Motivations Stroked by Arafat's speeches lauding the role of children in their struggle, repeatedly encouraged by their leadership to express "rage," many Palestinian parents have come to view the role of the youth in the uprising as useful and honorable. A child killed in a street confrontation becomes a shaheed (Arabic for "martyr") of the Palestinian cause, bringing social recognition and a cash payment to his family -- $2,000 per child killed and $300 per child wounded.69 Martyrs, people who die for the sake of the holy jihad and Islam, are held in such high regard by the Palestinian people that at times parents accept the death of their children as a badge of pride. Parents of toddlers proudly recount the little children saying they want to become martyrs, and a father of a 13-year-old says "I pray that God will choose them" to be martyrs.70 One mother told a journalist from the (London) Times, "I am happy that he [her 13-year-old son] has been martyred. I will sacrifice all my sons and daughters (12 in all) to Al-Aqsa and Jerusalem."71 In the Jabalya refugee camp a father said he was proud his young son died with a rock in his hand.72 Another mother boasted that she bore her son precisely for the purpose of participating in such Jihad, while the child's father proudly claimed to have provided his son with the training.73 Taman Sabeh, a 50-year-old woman in Nablus, was quoted by an AP reporter, "[i]f I had 20 children I would send them all down (to fight), I wouldn't spare any of them. We're not scared of death."74 Thus for many Palestinian children, incitement begins at home.75 Yet many Palestinian parents have attempted to hold their children back, and have resisted those who would place them in harm's way.76 However, Hafez Bargutti, the editor-in-chief of the Palestinian Authority official daily newspaper, Al Hayyat Al Jedida, wrote an editorial condemning parents who forbid their children from joining the riots.77 When the international media challenged Palestinian Legislative Councilwoman Hanan Ashrawi, she replied with the accusation of "racism."78 Ashrawi asserted, "They're telling us we have no feelings for our children. We're not human beings, we're not parents, we're not mothers and fathers."79 Other Palestinians have also faulted those who blamed the Palestinian parents and leadership. George Abu Al-Zulof, Director of a Palestinian NGO, claimed "parents do not send their children to confront soldiers." Al-Zulof asserted, "[s]uch contact is unavoidable due to a military presence in front of schools, homes, and community centers throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip."80 Wouldn't it be wonderful if his claim were true, but since the peace process redeployment of Israeli forces, about 99 percent of Palestinians live under PA civil administration. Thus, if there are armed individuals in front of their "schools, homes and community centers,"81 they are most certainly Palestinian police, Hamas terrorists, Tanzim gunmen,82 or members of one of Arafat's multiple security forces. The overwhelming majority of Palestinian civilians encounter IDF soldiers only when they reach a checkpoint on the road outside their cities, towns, and villages. If a Palestinian mob attacking an Israeli checkpoint succeeded in overrunning it, the soldiers would likely be lynched and mutilated, as were two reservists who took a wrong turn into Ramallah.83 Identifying Child Abuse and Possessing the Courage to Speak Out Queen Silvia of Sweden was one of the first public figures to offer insight into the question of responsibility for the deaths of Palestinian children. At a meeting of the World Childhood Foundation at the United Nations, she criticized leaders for "exploiting them [the children] and risking their lives in a political fight."84 She continued, "As a mother I'm very worried about this. I'd like to tell them to quit. This is very dangerous. The children should not take part."85 One courageous Arab journalist, Huda Al-Hussein, published her condemnation of the tactics of child sacrifice in the London-based newspaper Al-Sharq Al-Awsat. She asked: While UN Organizations save child-soldiers, especially in Africa, from the control of militia leaders who hurl them into the furnace of gang-fighting, some Palestinian leaders... consciously issue orders with the purpose of ending their childhood, even if it means their last breath....If these children have nothing to lose, and they think the training is...a game, are we supposed to continue pushing them with hypocrisy and stupid enthusiasm to actually lose their lives....What kind of independence is built on the blood of children while the leaders are safe and so are their children and grandchildren?...Isn't it sad that a Palestinian mother who loses a child looks around and cannot find other mothers crying nearby because every other mother waits her turn to receive the corpse of a child? They take the children from their mothers and at the same time they strip their mother of any sympathy.86 Palestinian legislators and columnists have begun to acknowledge the problem they have with mixing child protesters with Palestinian gunmen in confrontations with the Israeli army; thus Palestinian legislator Ashraf al-Ajrami stated in the Palestinian daily al-Ayyam: "[The intifada] is first and foremost a popular intifada that derives its importance from this description. Thus, it is imperative to protect its nature and not mix popular confrontations -- in which all our people are participating and armed with their determination, stones, and the means of popular struggle -- with armed confrontations."87 However, PA Minister of Information Yasser Abd Rabbo, perhaps in reaction to the growing criticism of the use of children in armed confrontations, called in early November for barring participation of children under the age of 16 in demonstrations against Israel.88 IDF Brig. Gen. Benny Gantz, a division commander on the West Bank, offered good advice to Palestinian parents: If the Palestinian people want their kids to be safe, then they should make sure their kids stay in a place where kids should be. And when they are sending their kids forward and they are firing at us and then the kids are in the killing zone, so unfortunately sometimes, really unfortunately, those things happen.89 According to a prominent evangelical pastor with excellent contacts in the West Bank, Christian Arab parents in the greater Bethlehem area have come under threats from the PA because "no Christian blood has been spilled, only Moslem blood" and because "Moslems have donated their children to the cause, but Christians haven't." Told that the families and parents of "martyrs" will receive food first, the Christian Arabs, many of whom discourage their children from participating in the Al-Aqsa intifada, fear that they will starve.90 Israeli Restraint: The IDF Rules of Engagement According to international law, in particular Article 43 of the Hague Regulations of 1907, Israel is obliged to ensure public order and safety in the areas it occupied in self-defense in the Six-Day War of 1967.91 This means that Israel must carry out necessary security measures in response to the widespread shooting and stoning that has characterized the Al-Aqsa intifada. Were the Palestinian police willing to perform their delegated local police function92 in Palestinian-populated areas, Israel would have no reason to intervene. But when just the opposite transpires, and the Palestinian police and security forces turn a blind eye to violence emanating from their areas, or join in the shooting, the IDF has no alternative but to fulfill its international law obligations. The force employed by the IDF in response to these complex and dangerous confrontations is not indiscriminate. Nor is it intended to harm the Palestinian youths. Rather the goal is to restore safety on the highways and other locations where violence has been instigated. IDF regulations make every effort to avoid incurring unnecessary casualties. Especially strict rules apply to the employment of live ammunition,93 preferring to make due, whenever possible, with loudspeaker warnings, tear gas, stun grenades, and rubber bullets. Soldiers are prohibited from opening fire with live ammunition unless: (1) they are fired upon; (2) they are in a situation where despite verbal warnings there remains an immediate danger to their lives or the lives of Israeli civilians; or (3) they are apprehending an escaping suspect who is believed to have committed a serious crime.94 Any soldiers who violate the rules of engagement are subject to investigation, disciplinary trial and, in serious cases, court-martial, as well they should. International Law: Efforts to Protect Children from the Dangers of Armed Conflict In order to assure that children are not involved in wars and other violent conflicts, it is necessary to keep them out of harm's way both physically and emotionally. International law broadly attempts to protect children from the horrors of armed conflict. For example, the use (by states) of children as shields to impede the adversary's military operations is prohibited. Article 28 of the Fourth Geneva Convention strictly forbids the use of any civilian as a shield. Jean Pictet, in the official Red Cross commentary on article 28, notes that the use of civilians (of any age) as shields has been condemned as cruel and barbaric.95 In addition, article 38 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (1989) condemns the recruitment and involvement of children under 15 years old in hostilities and armed conflicts. This provision clearly states, "[s]tate parties shall take all feasible measures to ensure that persons who have not attained the age of 15 years do not take a direct part in hostilities."96 Current treaty law not only forbids children to participate in combat, but it also proscribes a wide range of other indirect activities.97 Article 3 of the UN Convention states that administrative authorities or legislative bodies of a state shall place "the best interest of a child" as their primary consideration98 and, with that principle in mind, a number of states have raised the minimum age to 18.99 Article 36 asserts that state parties shall protect the child against all other forms of exploitation prejudicial to any aspects of the child's welfare, which logically includes even their voluntary recruitment to participate in a conflict.100 Ironically, this standard appears to conform with Islamic law, which prohibits children under 15 from participating in a jihad.101 But neither international law nor Islamic law has curtailed the exploitation of children in the Al-Aqsa intifada. While the PA has administrative responsibilities in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, the PA is not a sovereign entity,102 and therefore is not de jure bound by the above mentioned conventions.103 However, it is nothing less than hypocrisy for the PA to continuously pressure the international community to condemn Israel for violating human rights, while it blatantly disregards even the most rudimentary international standards of protection when it comes to its own children. Their misuse of children should set off an alarm for the world community; raising doubts as to whether a future Palestinian state would be a law-abiding member of the international community. Israel, by contrast, is endeavoring under the most trying circumstances to respect international law as regards Palestinian children. Elaborate laws and regulations govern the treatment of the Palestinian civilian population, even when they engage in hostilities. These principles aim at sparing the innocent civilian population from the dangers of armed conflict. Israel's active and liberal Supreme Court frequently reviews challenges to particular polices and conduct of the IDF, to keep the standards high. Conclusion and Outlook It is unquestionably a tragedy when children fall victim to the Al-Aqsa intifada, but the blame for this tragedy does not rest with the IDF. The tragic reality is that children, often of primary school age, man the intifada's first line of offense. They are incited by the Palestinian leadership, from Arafat on down, to begin riots, burn tires, throw together roadblocks, toss Molotov cocktails and stones, and function as a smokescreen between armed Palestinian gunmen and the IDF. The Western public must ask why are Palestinian educated to hate and place themselves in harm's way? The answer: many Palestinian activists, such as Tanzim leader Hussein a-Sheikh, believe that gains in future negotiations will be greater following the riots, which have made the Palestinians victims in the eyes of the world.104 In the words of Nobel Peace Prize laureate Elie Weisel: Those of us who reject hatred and fanaticism as options, who consider peace as the noblest of efforts, finally recognize Yasser Arafat for what he is: ignorant, devious and unworthy of trust. We had hoped for a genuine peace between Israeli and Palestinian children playing together, studying together, laughing together, and discovering each other's worlds. The pain, the agony, the death of any child, Palestinian or Jewish, is a torment to us. But why does Chairman Arafat not protect them but instead uses them as shields for adults throwing stones and worse?105 Thus it is not the IDF, but rather the Palestinian leadership, which should ultimately be held responsible for the injury and death among their rioting children. Israeli society revolves around the family. Jews as a people have always placed paramount emphasis on improving the lives of their children, and not only their own children. Israelis and Jews everywhere therefore deeply regret that Palestinian children have been caught up in the recent violence. Imagine how much less powerful Palestinian propaganda would be without cynically sacrificing children in front of the television cameras.106 What if Arafat set an example for the Palestinian political and religious leadership by exhorting the youth to press their views via non-violent protest -- candlelight vigils, sit-ins, peaceful marches, petitions, and the like? Regrettably, despite the fact that Israel earnestly sought to reach a final peace agreement with the PLO, he and they chose incitement, blood, smoke and gunfire, bringing on the cataclysm which is swallowing young lives and the peace process whole.107 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: dianavan Date: 19 Jul 06 - 12:15 PM As I said before, until recently, I supported Israel. Its only because of their method of dealing with Palestinians and the Hezbollah terrorists that I have changed my mind. Past history has nothing to do with my opinion of Israel today. John on the SC - I think you should revise your statement to one soldier is worth about 500 women and children. Is it so hard to understand that Hezbollah and Hamas want the women and children returned? What kind of game is Israel playing? Israel imprisoned women and children. Hesbollah targetted soldiers and Israel retaliated by bombing Lebanon rather than negotiating a hostage exchange. It makes Israel look like an unreasonable bully. I have come to believe that now that Israel has power and military might, they have become just as oppressive as their previous oppressors. The Nazis taught them alot. It is Israel who has forgotten that 'Never Again' applies to all, not just Jews. ...and those of you who want to simplify this problem by calling people anti-semitic, resort to name-calling because they are unable to justify the actions of the Israeli government. You use ancient history to justify the actions of Israel. If that were a bona fide excuse, the entire world would be plunged into war as a result of past injustices. Whenever you use anti-semitism as an excuse for Israeli aggression, you do the Jewish people a disservice. Stop feeling sorry for your self and start taking some responsibility for the lives of others who are suffering at the hands of the Israelis. Not all Jews live in Israel and not all Jews in Israel support the actions of the Israeli government. It is the actions of the Israeli government that upsets me, not the Jewish people. If Israeli was Chinese or French, I would still object. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: freda underhill Date: 19 Jul 06 - 12:19 PM All you're saying is very true, bb, and as well right now there are photos on the front page of the papers, of young israeli girls writing messages on bombs before they're dispatched to lebanon (the bombs, not the girls) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: GUEST,"sometimes unfortunate things happen" Josh Date: 19 Jul 06 - 12:37 PM A phrase that echoes with the sound of slaughter...and by God the Palestinian children have been slaughtered! Josh |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: GUEST,grumpy Date: 19 Jul 06 - 12:49 PM I thought there was going to be a LIMIT on the size of copy & paste articles!!!!! damn it, beardedbruce & the occasional other, give us a LINK! We'll read it if we want to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: dianavan Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:05 PM bb says, "Israeli soldiers are ordered not to shoot live ammunition at children, and face disciplinary procedures or court martial for breaches..." So what about the innocent children who have died from single bullet wounds? Please show me some evidence that the Israeli soldiers involved in these crimes have faced disciplinary prodedures or that the incidents were even investigated by the Israeli military or the government. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: beardedbruce Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:27 PM The trial of an Israeli soldier accused of needlessly shooting the body of a Palestinian schoolgirl has opened in a military court. Iman al-Hams was shot close to an Israeli watchtower in the southern Gaza town of Rafah when soldiers suspected her of planting a bomb. She was then shot several more times by a soldier who approached her in order to "verify the kill". The unidentified soldier has been charged with five offences. He was originally cleared of any wrongdoing in the shooting, on 5 October, but charges were later brought after a military police investigation. The soldier, known as Captain R, faces two counts of illegally using his weapon, as well as charges of obstruction of justice, conduct unbecoming an officer and improper use of authority. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4082649.stm So, care to provide even ONE example of the Plaestinian authorities holding ANY of the terrorists deliberately targeting civilians for trial or even investigation? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: CarolC Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:29 PM A black flag By Gideon Levy http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/733427.html A black flag hangs over the "rolling" operation in Gaza. The more the operation "rolls," the darker the flag becomes. The "summer rains" we are showering on Gaza are not only pointless, but are first and foremost blatantly illegitimate. It is not legitimate to cut off 750,000 people from electricity. It is not legitimate to call on 20,000 people to run from their homes and turn their towns into ghost towns. It is not legitimate to penetrate Syria's airspace. It is not legitimate to kidnap half a government and a quarter of a parliament. A state that takes such steps is no longer distinguishable from a terror organization. The harsher the steps, the more monstrous and stupid they become, the more the moral underpinnings for them are removed and the stronger the impression that the Israeli government has lost its nerve. Now one must hope that the weekend lull, whether initiated by Egypt or the prime minister, and in any case to the dismay of Channel 2's Roni Daniel and the IDF, will lead to a radical change. Everything must be done to win Gilad Shalit's release. What we are doing now in Gaza has nothing to do with freeing him. It is a widescale act of vengeance, the kind that the IDF and Shin Bet have wanted to conduct for some time, mostly motivated by the deep frustration that the army commanders feel about their impotence against the Qassams and the daring Palestinian guerilla raid. There's a huge gap between the army unleashing its frustration and a clever and legitimate operation to free the kidnapped soldier. To prevent the army from running as amok as it would like, a strong and judicious political echelon is required. But facing off against the frustrated army is Ehud Olmert and Amir Peretz's tyro regime, weak and happless. Until the weekend lull, it appeared that each step proposed by the army and Shin Bet had been immediately approved for backing. That does not bode well, not only for the chances of freeing Shalit, but also for the future management of the government, which is being revealed to be as weak as the Hamas government. The only wise and restrained voice heard so far was that of the soldier's father, Noam Shalit, of all people. That noble man called at what is clearly his most difficult hour, not for stridency and not for further damage done to the lives of soldiers and innocent Palestinians. Against the background of the IDF's unrestrained actions and the arrogant bragging of the latest macho spokesmen, Maj. Gen. Yoav Gallant of the Southern Command and Maj. Gen. (res.) Amos Gilad, Shalit's father's voice stood out like a voice crying in the wilderness. Sending tens of thousands of miserable inhabitants running from their homes, dozens of kilometers from where his son is supposedly hidden, and cutting off the electricity to hundreds of thousands of others, is certainly not what he meant in his understated emotional pleas. It's a shame nobody is listening to him, of all people. The legitimate basis for the IDF's operation was stripped away the moment it began. It's no accident that nobody mentions the day before the attack on the Kerem Shalom fort, when the IDF kidnapped two civilians, a doctor and his brother, from their home in Gaza. The difference between us and them? We kidnapped civilians and they captured a soldier, we are a state and they are a terror organization. How ridiculously pathetic Amos Gilad sounds when he says that the capture of Shalit was "illegitimate and illegal," unlike when the IDF grabs civilians from their homes. How can a senior official in the defense ministry claim that "the head of the snake" is in Damascus, when the IDF uses the exact same methods? True, when the IDF and Shin Bet grab civilians from their homes - and they do so often - it is not to murder them later. But sometimes they are killed on the doorsteps of their homes, although it is not necessary, and sometimes they are grabbed to serve as "bargaining chips," like in Lebanon and now, with the Palestinian legislators. What an uproar there would be if the Palestinians had grabbed half the members of the Israeli government. How would we label them? Collective punishment is illegitimate and it does not have a smidgeon of intelligence. Where will the inhabitants of Beit Hanun run? With typical hardheartedness the military reporters say they were not "expelled" but that it was "recommended" they leave, for the benefit, of course, of those running for their lives. And what will this inhumane step lead to? Support for the Israeli government? Their enlistment as informants and collaborators for the Shin Bet? Can the miserable farmers of Beit Hanun and Beit Lahia do anything about the Qassam rocket-launching cells? Will bombing an already destroyed airport do anything to free the soldier or was it just to decorate the headlines? Did anyone think about what would have happened if Syrian planes had managed to down one of the Israeli planes that brazenly buzzed their president's palace? Would we have declared war on Syria? Another "legitimate war"? Will the blackout of Gaza bring down the Hamas government or cause the population to rally around it? And even if the Hamas government falls, as Washington wants, what will happen on the day after? These are questions for which nobody has any real answers. As usual here: Quiet, we're shooting. But this time we are not only shooting. We are bombing and shelling, darkening and destroying, imposing a siege and kidnapping like the worst of terrorists and nobody breaks the silence to ask, what the hell for, and according to what right?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: CarolC Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:47 PM http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/testimony_en.asp?full=415 The witness: 1st Sergeant, Paratroops The Location: Jenin Date: February-May 2003 Description: "We took up positions of �Straw Widow� (a disguised ambush). We were told that this �Straw Widow� was against armed people and against people climbing on our armed vehicles. Our APCs (armed personnel carriers) were cruising 24 hours a day close to buildings (in Jenin), waiting for kids to climb on them, trying to dislodge the top -mounted MG (machine gun) and to shoot them. We had fixed positions inside Jenin�s casbah, the APCs were on the streets, below us. They were moving continuously. We were expressly told that we were just waiting for someone to climb on an APC, and ordered to shoot to kill. We quickly understood that we weren�t expected to deal with armed people as no armed Palestinian would roam the streets with so many APCs around. They (our authorities) were looking for children or plain people daring to climb on an APC or on any other armored vehicle. We understood that from the talks with our officers. After a day or two, a 12-year old kid climbed on one of the APCs. There were lots of guesses about his age. First they said he was 8, later, that he was 12. I don�t know. In any case he climbed on an APC and one of our sharpshooters killed him. I already mentioned, we were looking for kids. The neighboring company also had an incident with a kid or teenager, climbing an APC, who was also killed. Some of us said that this whole operation was unnecessary as its purpose was to kill kids, while others said that it was very good. Was it known that he was unarmed? He was surely unarmed and he climbed on this�. No one asked you why you had two Xs (a mark on the rifle signaling a killed target)" It's policy to target civilians. That's why the ones who do it are never punished. They sometimes have a show trial so people like beardedbruce can say they don't allow killing of civilians, but these things are almost never brought to trial, and the people involved are never punished. And the ones who kill the most civilians, they get promoted to prime minister, like Ariel Sharon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: CarolC Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:04 PM Indeed, reading Mudcat, it seems that you are always quite upset by us. One day, it is the brutal repression of the Palestinians, the next day is Lebanon. I'm sure if Mudcat had existed then you would have been upset about the bombing of the nuclear reactor in Baghdad and the Yom Kippur War and the Sinai campaign. It appears that Jews who triumph and who, therefore, live, upset you most extraordinarily. Nice smear attempt, Irwin, but no cigar. You are trying to justify what cannot be justified, and so ugly smears are the best you have to work with. But you know as well as I do, that smears like that one have no basis in fact. My posting history is a matter of public record here in the Mudcat. Prior to the Israeli incursion into the occupied Palestinian areas in 2002, my position was not all that different from that of people like beardedbruce. If you look at my posting history, you will see that I never posted to any threads about the Middle East prior to the incursion in 2002. And if you read my posts on threads about the Middle East after the start of that incursion, you will see that I have arrived at the position I hold now gradually, and through a long and painstaking process of questioning and investigating. I arrived at my current position when I discovered that the government of Israel and its policies and practices are morally bankrupt and morally reprehensible, and that I (and the rest of the world) have been lied to continuously by the government of Israel and the Western media about the history of the Middle East, and about what is going on there now. And you will find that more and more people, many of whom started out like me, accepting the party line coming out of Israel without question for our whole lives, are waking up and seeing what is really going on, and deciding that they cannot support it, and indeed, that they must speak up against it. The numbers are growing because the slaughtering of innocents, and the brutal repression of millions of people cannot be concealed forever, and deep down, most people really do have a conscience (unlike you, apparently). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: CarolC Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:29 PM By the way, Irwin... in answer to your questions, the reason Palestinians resisted prior to 1967, is because they were being displaced from their homes and their livlihoods, and they were also being indiscriminitaly slaughtered by proto-Israeli terrorists, and after that, by the Israeli government. Prior to the arrival of the Europeans Jews in the latter part of the 1800s and the early part of the 1900s, Jews, Christians, and Muslims all lived together in that area in relative harmony. And even the Mizrahi Jews (I bet you don't even know what "Mizrahi" means) resisted the encroachment of the Europeans Jews in those early days. None of the indigenous people (Jew and non-Jew alike) wanted the supremacist European Jews to appropriate their land and their livlihoods. It's not about Jews versus non-Jews. It's about suprmacist Europeans versus indigenous peoples. Trying to make it about Jews versus non-Jews is just a smoke screen. It's not enough for you that I support the existance of Israel within the pre-1967 borders. You want me to support the continued ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by the government of Israel. You are a racist and a supremacist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Jul 06 - 03:01 PM How do normal people participate in discussions like this, when certain individuals take over and plaster the discussion with reams of copy-paste propaganda from questionable or unattributed sources? I said this:
CarolC responded:
Hey, there are 592 messages in this thread, much of it copy-pasted propaganda. I'd like a sensible, balanced, brief explanation of the situation, not propaganda. I think there is logic and good will on both sides of the issue, and that there should be common ground that can be reached. It appears that CarolC represents the bulk of the discussion on one side of the issue, the pro-Palestinian position. Beardedbruce represents the pro-Israeli position. Carol and Bruce are both experts at copy-pasting propaganda that "proves" that the opposing side is inherently evil. In fact, that seems to be the basic premise of the discussion - that one side is right, and the other side is wrong. I think there is right on both sides, and wrong on both sides - and I believe that somewhere, there must be common ground. So, where is the truth in all this? It's certainly not in the message from "Irwin," that Google finds posted 86 times at various sites. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 19 Jul 06 - 03:43 PM I think it is time we introduced a song to this thread. I realised that the Israeli army would have no chance of being exonorated for killing children when I was told by a proud translator what an 8 year old Palestinian boy was singing. His entire school were being trained to hate and kill Israelis. "For my country I shall sacrifice myself How sweet is Shahada (martyrdom)Be joyous over my blood and do not cry for me" An Iraeli military officer (who had two children the same age) sobbed that "I could never raise my own children to hate Palestinians that much" he had seen a young boy throw a petrol bomb at a truck, and was then shot in the back by a Palestinian sniper to ensure the Israelis got blamed when the convoy drove away without firing. And if you don't believe me, try asking Amnesty International. Nuff Said i'm sick of this thread (and the memories and PTSS) Yours, Aye. Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: dianavan Date: 19 Jul 06 - 04:52 PM Thanks, Carol, especially for: http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/testimony_en.asp?full=415 thats the article I was looking for. bb - Your article was from 2004. So what was the verdict? I know that terrorists deliberately target civilians. They do not, however, deliberately target children. Read the above link from an Israeli soldier and try to tell me that Israeli soldiers do not target children. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: Peace Date: 19 Jul 06 - 05:08 PM I wonder when we will get a similar statement from Hezbollah or Hamas people? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: GUEST,Dan Date: 19 Jul 06 - 06:31 PM Is it any wonder that the Palestinians sometimes resort to suicide bombing? On one side you have one of the most technologically advanced army's in the world more than ready to use its wide array of military hardware on a military weak opposition...often the Palestinians are unarmed or are throwing rocks. Tome and time again they are shot by sharpshooters or hit by riubber bullets fired at high velocity. Then when the hot war is unleashed they are bombed,shelled or hit by tank fire.5000 shells have been indiscriminately fired into Gaza during the past few months. Both Gaza and the Lebanon are open targets for the Israelis who seem to be running out of apartment blocks,bridges and hospitals to destroy. The difference between the suicide bomber and the warplane pilot is that the pilot drops his bomb on a house or car and then returns home for tea....the bomber detonates his belt in a restaurant and kills himself. Pres Bush ad Tony Blair [yo Blair indeed ] have got a great deal to answer for ...they are both wading in the blood of Palistinians,Lebanese, Afghani and Iraqi civilians Ifor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: Peace Date: 19 Jul 06 - 08:33 PM Hamas and Hezbollah are wading in the blood of Israelis also. Convenient when the folks here forget that, but true nevertheless. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: robomatic Date: 19 Jul 06 - 11:25 PM Guest, Dan: I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006 From: GUEST,dan Date: 20 Jul 06 - 12:22 AM What a question! Hundreds of totally innocent Palestinians are being slaughtered ,maimed and thousands are being terrorised...a whole country is in the prOcess of being destroyed for the second time in twenty years while Palestinians removed forcibly from their homes 6 decades ago are now being blown up and slaughtered yet again in Gaza and the West Bank.... Your question...what about the 1967 border. My answer is there is no room for a zionism that is in deadly partnership with the USA to slaughter its neighbours. I believe that those strutting zionist paramiltaries should go back to their homes in New York becaust they are murdering the people whose lands they have stole. The problem is zionism and the zionists...... 1 Stop the state mass murder 2 Stop the destruction of both Gaza and the Lebanon 3 Release the prisoners,women,children and the three Israeli soldiers. 4 Withdraw from the occupied territories of Gaza,West Bank and the Golan Heights. 5 Full right of return for all the Palestinian refugees and their children whose lands and homes have been dispossed. 6 Full civil and human and religious rights for all in a democratic Palestine. The above is not a utopian solution it is the only alternative to the Long War stretching out into the next century being envisaged and planned for by both the zionists leading Israel and their American neo con allies. Their way is still all ab out oil and strategic power...but another world is possible...and on the evidence we have seen in Gaza and the Lebanon..absolutely essential. dan |
