BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:30 PM

This all comes from one fundamental fact: Refusal of most of the Arab nations and their "Palestinian" bully-boys to recognized Israel. If Israel had been accepted by 1967 none of the rest of this would be happening.

There is no reason on earth why they should have recognized Israel. However it is a lie to say that most of them did not do so. Many of them tried, but Israel would have none of it.

All of what has happened and is happening right now would have happened no matter what the "Arab" nations did or didn't do, because Israel has always created pretexts for committing acts of aggression against its neighbors for the purpose of taking more territory. And it will continue to do so, to the detriment of both the Palestinians as well as the Israelis, until either the people of Israel make them stop, or Israel succeeds in wiping out all of the people of the Middle East and possibly other parts of the world as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,walt
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:29 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:28 PM

AN EXPOSED NERVE
In her book DRINKING THE SEA AT GAZA Amira Hass tries to explain why she ,an Israeli journalist, wanted to live in poor,dangerous and rundown Gaza.
"In the end " she wrote
"my desire to live in Gaza stemmed neither from adventurism nor from insanity, but from that dread of being a bystander from my need to understand , down to the last detail a world that is -to the best of my political and historical comprehension - a profoundly Israeli creation.To me, Gaza embodies the entire saga of the Israeli -Palestinian conflict; it represents the central contradiction of the state of Israel- ademocracy for some,dispossession for others;it is our exposed nerve"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:20 PM

This all comes from one fundamental fact: Refusal of most of the Arab nations and their "Palestinian" bully-boys to recognized Israel. If Israel had been accepted by 1967 none of the rest of this would be happening.

ifor is a witness to this by his/her/its very inability to form any idea of acceptance of the State Of Israel, so by his/her/its very own words and positions we are given to understand what Israel is up against, as well as anyone who wishes peace for the region.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:17 PM

Thank you, Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:15 PM

I recall one time as a kid when gangs were the norm. It was a necessity where I grew up because of the 'hatreds' and 'turf wars' that took place. It wasn't that most of us wanted to belong to a gang; it was just that we perceived it to be a matter of survival. After five guys steal your lunch or lunch money a few times either before or after they beat you up, well, eventually you seek out others who have had the same problem and begin to carry combs. (Gang members from the 1950s will understand that.) Sooner or later, someone pulls a knife on someone else, or they use a chain to whip an 'enemy' and then someone else has to begin carrying a piece. Eventually the cops get involved because sooner or later someone ends up in the hospital needing lotsa stitches to close a puncture or a slash wound. Then someone else gets a few ribs caved in and maybe their testicles kicked up into their pelvis. Then it's necessary to re-establish ownership of turf, because things are getting crazy. Then you see that it's a good thing to join forces with another gang because there seems to be safety in numbers. Then it's no longer about lunches and combs and turf. Then it's about gangs. And what do you do when a ten-year-old asks a twelve-year-old for sagely advice about whether to carry a switch blade or a gravity knife, and what's the best way to fight in close: blade up, down or sideways facing in or out? And is it a good idea to carry a throwing knife also? And what's the best way to hide a 'serious' weapon? Kids, huh? What are ya gonna do!?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:15 PM

There ARE no halos or winners in this abysmal idiocy!

Maybe not, but there ARE occupiers and those who are living under military occupation. There is a world of difference between these two categories. You ought to know that, Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:13 PM

The Palestine Solidarity Campaign has called for a "candlelit vigil "outside the House of Commons in central London from 9pm until 10.30 on tuesday the 18th July while the House sits late.
The vigil is to show solidarity with the people of Gaza,the West Bank and the Lebanon who are being attacked by Israeli military forces.
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:13 PM

Carol: To be clear on one thing: Do Palestinians (or groups working on their behalf) target civilians?

Yes, they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:12 PM

Peace, re: your 14 Jul 06 - 04:19 PM post, please see my 14 Jul 06 - 03:38 PM post.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,James
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:08 PM

One solution to the current problem is the one proposed by the Palestinian fighters 2 weeks ago.
The Israeli soldier is released in Gaza and in return Israel releases all women and children prisoners.
A similar deal could be worked out with Hezbollah...or have I missed something?
James

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:59 PM

Carol and bruce...I know and like you both, but this eternal list-making of 'offenses' by the other side and 'righteous reply' by the other side is getting beyond ridiculous!

There ARE no halos or winners in this abysmal idiocy!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:55 PM

exactly, Peace.

Seems there was this soccer player from Italy who kept harassing this other soccer player from France....after awhile, the French one head-butted the Italian.

Who is at fault, the one who kept poking, or the one who over-reacted?

That's right...**BOTH**....the metaphor only goes so far, but when the entire area is a smoldering ruin unfit for ANYONE, I'm sure it will be of great solice to know *THEIR* leaders didn't back down.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:36 PM

"Hizbullah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah said on Friday evening that his group is ready for "open war" with Israel and warned that an Israeli warship operating off southern Beirut will be destroyed.

Speaking defiantly in an audiotape aired on Hizbullah's Al-Manar television, Nasrallah addressed himself to Israelis, saying: "You wanted an open war and we are ready for an open war."

"Look at the warship that has attacked Beirut, while it burns and sinks before your very eyes," Nasrallah said. It was not clear whether he meant that the warship had already been attacked.

The Israeli army said an Israeli naval ship was in Lebanese waters, apparently by a rocket. The damage was not serious and there were no injuries, a spokesman said. Officials would not give the vessel's exact location."



As result of this crap, Israel will, within 24 hours, do some serious damage to Beirut. Welcome to the world when neither side will listen.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,james
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:36 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:32 PM

It does seem that ifor, David and the scads and oodles of other college students who seem to be posting here under GUEST names do not so much care about Palestinians as they do about hating Zionists, Israelis and in the final analysis, Jews. They do not so much care for people as they do for ideologies. They seem to be little better than the folks they condone: Hamas, Hezbollah, and if this were decades ago, the Red Brigades. I don't doubt they'd have though the murders of Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics was just. They would no doubt have complained about the bad people who shot the hijackers and freed the passengers at Entebbe.

Until such time as they and those who support them state that the life of an Israeli child has the same value as the life of a Palestinian child--or any other child for that matter, they can collectively kiss my ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:28 PM

I was looking at the news on my screen this evening and it seems that an Israeli warship operating in Lebanese waters has been hit by a rocket fired by Hezbollah.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:21 PM

Carol: To be clear on one thing: Do Palestinians (or groups working on their behalf) target civilians?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:19 PM

"This is collective punishment."

And firing rockets into Haifa is not?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:18 PM

Lessee, ifor posted three times since my last post without a word of answer regarding whether or not Israel is entitled to any borders, which CarolC was kind enough to grant so long as they are the '67 borders. ifor seems to indicate that he/she/it does not accept Israel under any circumstances within any boundries.

Let me repeat my question directed to you from
10 Jul 06 - 06:51 PM,
and on 12 Jul 06 - 04:11 PM
and on 12 Jul 06 - 07:20 PM
and on 13 Jul 06 - 01:40 PM

Do you, ifor, support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

Otherwise, what do you bring to the party? The party being, in this forum, any indication that you allow Israel any rights to do anything as a sovereign state.

The heated words in the light of current events indicate why these current events are, sadly, current. Anything may be done to Israelis, the crimes begin when the Israelis react. No gauge can be put on Israeli reaction since with this theory anything Israel does is over-reaction.

Typically when you attack the soldiers of a country that is an act of war.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:01 PM

Least YOU forget, the Palestinians are TARGETING civilians, while the Israelis are targeting those who are making bombs and launching rockets. If THEY are not valid military targets, then you are right-
But I claim the number of civilians DELIBERATLY targeted would show a far greater number of Israeli dead than Palestinian.

This is bullshit. Israel has been targeting civilians for a long time. Even members of the IDF say this is true.


Still regretable, and all step[s should be taken to reduce that number to the absolute minimum possible, but NOT the same. IF the terrorists/freedom fighters choose to have military targets in civilian areas, as prohibited by the Geneva conventions, there will always be the chance of innocents being killed or injured.

Oh, come off it. You (and the government of Israel) are just hiding behind plausible deniability. There is no truth whatever to their claims or yours.

They are targeting civilians as they have been since they started their ethnic cleansing of Palestinians even before Israel's war of independence. The massacres of many hundreds of civilians from Palestinian towns and villages before, during, and after Israel's War of Independence, and the many massacres and killings of Palestinians civilians and civilians in other countries since then proves Israel's assertion that they don't target civilians to be the Big Lie that it is.

And by the way, if you (and Israel) insist that killing civilians is justified if a military target is what is being aimed for, then by the same logic, all of Israel's civilian areas are military targets, because members of the IDF (and the proto-Israeli terrorist organizations prior to Israeli statehood) have been cleverly (and insideously) hiding themselves amongst the Israeli civilian population since before Israel declared itself a nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:00 PM

While Hezbollah would launch its rockets with the goal of causing mass casualties to shock and demoralize the Israeli population, they would also likely attempt smaller but more devastating infrastructure assaults. High-value targets would include the industrial section of Haifa, whose sprawling petrochemical plants and oil refinery would be vulnerable to bombardment. The loss of the Haifa refinery, one of only two such installations in Israel, would threaten Israel's economic security. Hezbollah could also launch rockets against the city's port and Matam Park, a hub of Israeli high-tech development. Even minor damage could lead to serious disruptions in Israel's delicate economic framework. The vulnerability of the Israeli economy to a Hezbollah rocket attack was demonstrated by events in 1996 when the group fired over 500 Katyushas into northern Israel; Israeli officials placed the cost of the relatively minor two-week assault at approximately US$100 million.[11]

http://www.meforum.org/article/806

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:53 PM

"But there are no reasons other than collective punishment for the response they have chosen for the kidnapping of two of their soldiers. "


Oh, really? You think that the roads would not be used to transport troops, supplies, and the Israeli kidnap victims? IF there was collective punishment, there would be attacks on UNRELATED civilian infrastructure- which I do not see as the case- Transportation and power systems are legitimate military targets, to deny the enemy suppiles, movement, and immpact the ability to fight.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:49 PM

"Lest you forget, beardedbruce, for every Jewish Israeli civilian you can list who has been killed by Palestinians, there are SEVERAL Palestinian civilians who have been killed by Israelis."

Least YOU forget, the Palestinians are TARGETING civilians, while the Israelis are targeting those who are making bombs and launching rockets. If THEY are not valid military targets, then you are right-
But I claim the number of civilians DELIBERATLY targeted would show a far greater number of Israeli dead than Palestinian.

You have never seemed to comprehend that civilians killed while attacking a military target are a different thing than civilians deliberatly targeted as civilians. Still regretable, and all step[s should be taken to reduce that number to the absolute minimum possible, but NOT the same. IF the terrorists/freedom fighters choose to have military targets in civilian areas, as prohibited by the Geneva conventions, there will always be the chance of innocents being killed or injured.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:48 PM

If the Israeli military is so strong and powerful, why is it they are killing less civilians that the average day of suicide bombers in Iraq, IF they were targeting them?

There are all kinds of reasons why they might hold back the full force of their strength. But there are no reasons other than collective punishment for the response they have chosen for the kidnapping of two of their soldiers.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:42 PM

"IF Israel was targeting civilians, the casualties would be far greater.

This is unsupported supposition on your part."


Yet YOUR statements as to the intent of the Israeli government, in opposition to the statements by that body, are to be given some value as being supported? I do not think so.


You can't have it both ways: If the Israeli military is so strong and powerful, why is it they are killing less civilians that the average day of suicide bombers in Iraq, IF they were targeting them?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:41 PM

Lest you forget, beardedbruce, for every Jewish Israeli civilian you can list who has been killed by Palestinians, there are SEVERAL Palestinian civilians who have been killed by Israelis. You are, again, placing a much higher value on the lives of Jewish Israelis than on people who are not Jewish Israelis. This is, by the way, racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:38 PM

IF Israel was targeting civilians, the casualties would be far greater.

This is unsupported supposition on your part.

Hardly. The Hezbollah use of area bombardment rockets against a civilian region is proof of direct targeting of civilians

They didn't start firing rockets until Israel invaded and bombarded Lebanon. But if they are firing into civilian areas, then they, too, are targeting civilians.

YOU have provided no such proof of deliberate targeting of civilians not at or near military targets by the Israeli armed forces. Roads, munition depots, headquarters, and fuel depots are all legitimate military targets.

As are Israeli soldiers. But killing civilians and targeting roads, power plants, residential areas and other civilian infrastructure is NOT a legitimate response for the kidnapping of soldiers, but is, in fact, collective punishment.

In response to many, many acts of war by Palestinians in the form of bombings of civilians in Israel over a period of many years....

In response to an illegal military occupation of their lands, and complete subjugation of and ongoing ethnic cleansing of their people.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:34 PM

AND THE WALL CAME DOWN
It has just been reported from Gaza that Palestinian fighters have blown a large hole in the security wall separating Egypt from Gaza.
Hundreds of people trapped on the closed border were able to brush past security guards and enter Gaza .
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:30 PM

Since the beginning of the current conflict, the Hamas terrorist
organization is responsible for carrying out 425 various terrorist attacks
which resulted in the killing of 377 and wounding of 2,076 Israeli citizens
and soldiers.

The Hamas organization has carried out 53 suicide attacks, killing 289
Israelis and injuring 1,649.

A Chronology of Terrorist Attacks Carried out by the Hamas Since September
2000:

April 17,2004 - A border policeman killed, an Israeli civilian injured,
and two border policemen injured, when a suicide bomber exploded himself at
the workers terminal crossing at the Erez industrial area.

March 14, 2004 - Two suicide bombers detonated an explosive belt and an
explosive bag at the Ashdod port. Ten Israelis were killed and 12 injured.

March 6, 2004 - Suicide bombers traveling in three vehicles drove into the
Erez crossing, and detonated two car bombs at Palestinian checkpoints, while
firing at the Israeli checkpoint. Two Palestinian policemen were killed.

Jan. 29, 2004 - A suicide bomber detonated a bag laden with explosives on a
No. 19 bus line on Aza Street in Jerusalem. Ten Israelis and one foreigner
were killed and 44 were injured.

Jan. 14, 2004 - A female suicide bomber wearing an explosive belt detonated
herself at the workers terminal in the Erez crossing, resulting in the death
of four Israelis and the injury of five.

Sept. 9, 2003 - A suicide bomber detonated an explosive device at the
entrance of the "Hillel Café" in Jerusalem. Seven Israelis were killed and
70 injured.

Sept. 9 , 2003 - A suicide bomber detonated an explosive device at a bus
stop near the IDF "Tzrifin" Base. Nine IDF soldiers were killed and 10 were
injured.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

more here http://www.aipac.org/hamas/hamasAttacks.htm [please limit C & P]

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,IFOR
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:25 PM

FREE THE OTHER ISRAELI PRISONER!
While the people of Gaza are imprisoned in their city and the refugee camps and cities of the West Bank are threatened by by the Israeli military it is worth mentioning an Israeli civilian who remains a prisoner of the Israeli state.

Mordechai Vanunu ,a former nuclear technician in the Negev desert, did much to reveal the extent of Israel's nuclear weapons capability.

For this crime he was kidnapped from Rome and served 18 years in an Israeli jail.Eleven years were served in solitary confinement.

After his release in 2004 he was prevented from leaving Israel. He has renounced the Jewish faith and his Israeli citizenship and wants to move to another country where he can live in peace. He is unable to leave and now lives under close monitoring amid threats from right wing Zionists in a christian church annexe.

Israel is prepared to kill innocents in order to free its captured soldiers but when will it free Mordechai Vanunu?
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:23 PM

In response to many, many acts of war by Palestinians in the form of bombings of civilians in Israel over a period of many years....

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:22 PM

"This would be a valid belief on your part ONLY if the numbers were reversed and there were dozens of (Jewish) Israeli civilians killed for every non-Jewish civilian killed."

Hardly. The Hezbollah use of area bombardment rockets against a civilian region is proof of direct targeting of civilians- YOU have provided no such proof of deliberate targeting of civilians not at or near military targets by the Israeli armed forces. Roads, munition depots, headquarters, and fuel depots are all legitimate military targets.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:17 PM

"Israel is targeting and killing civilians because some of its soldiers were kidnapped by guerrillas"

As I stated, this is unsupported. IF Israel was targeting civilians, the casualties would be far greater.

Thus, since the premise is false, the conclusion that "This is collective punishment " is invalid.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:11 PM

Which occurred during a direct ACT OF WAR within the PRE-1967 border State of Israel.

In response to many, many acts of war by Israel in the form of bombings of civilians in Gaza over a period of many years.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:09 PM

And I must assume that you believe that one Arab life is worth more than dozens of Israeli lives. Which would also be in accord with the prevailing veiw held by the Arab and Palestinian governments.

This would be a valid belief on your part ONLY if the numbers were reversed and there were dozens of (Jewish) Israeli civilians killed for every non-Jewish civilian killed.

But they aren't, and so it isn't. It is simply a very ignorant attempt on your part to score a rhetorical point.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:06 PM

And THEIR blood is on the hands of HAMAS and HEZBOLLAH.

Only if you believe in collective punishment, beardedbruce.

Israel is targeting and killing civilians because some of its soldiers were kidnapped by guerrillas. This is collective punishment - a favorite tactic of the Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:06 PM

"The Palestinian fighters hold exactly one Israeli soldier prisoner
Hezbollah in the Lebanon hold two soldiers prisoner.
The three were captured in military firefights."

Which occurred during a direct ACT OF WAR within the PRE-1967 border State of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:03 PM

"I must assume that you believe that one Jewish life is worth more than dozens of Palestinian and Lebanese lives. Which would also be in accord with the prevailing veiw held by the Israeli government. "


And I must assume that you believe that one Arab life is worth more than dozens of Israeli lives. Which would also be in accord with the prevailing veiw held by the Arab and Palestinian governments.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:02 PM

The Palestinian fighters hold exactly one Israeli soldier prisoner
Hezbollah in the Lebanon hold two soldiers prisoner.
The three were captured in military firefights.

In contrast Israel holds thousands,possibly tens of thousands, of Palestinians,men ,women and children in prison.Many of these were kidnapped by the Israeli military from refugee camps in the illegally occupied West Bank.

The Israelis are holding hundreds of Palestinian children in prison cells.Why are they inside?Did they scratch the paintwork of a car belonging to a Zionist colonialist?

The prisoners are being held in appalling conditions sometimes for up to 25 years.The food is disgusting,they are not allowed enough water,medical treatment is poor and torture and illtreatment is commonplace.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:01 PM

"Almost all of the civilians killed so far in all of the hostilities in all of the effected areas, beardedbruce (this includes Israel as well as Lebanon and Gaza) have been people who were not Israelis, but were Gazan and Lebanese civilians."

And THEIR blood is on the hands of HAMAS and HEZBOLLAH.

You seem to think that targetting old women and children deliberatly, as Hamas and Hezbollah do, is not worthy of comment, but the death of civilians while attacking a legitimate military target is a crime- WHICH THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS have defined as being the crime of the side which PLACED the military target in a civlian area. IF there are war-crime trials, as there should be, the ONLY evidence so far indicates HAMAS and HEZBOLLAH are guilty, by their choice of prohibited areas to locate military depots, headquarters, and targets.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:54 PM

Almost all of the civilians killed so far in all of the hostilities in all of the effected areas, beardedbruce (this includes Israel as well as Lebanon and Gaza) have been people who were not Israelis, but were Gazan and Lebanese civilians. So when you say this...

Or is it still that Jews are not "human" enough for you?

I must assume that you believe that one Jewish life is worth more than dozens of Palestinian and Lebanese lives. Which would also be in accord with the prevailing veiw held by the Israeli government.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:45 PM

You state "Israel is hitting almost exclusively civilian targets in Gaza and Lebanon. "


"...Nasrallah, soon after Israel's military reportedly hit his home and destroyed Hezbollah's headquarters in southern Beirut. "


"Israeli aircraft also carried out more airstrikes on a Hezbollah stronghold in Beirut and an airstrike on Hezbollah's radio station, Reuters reported, wounding at least one person. The radio station, al-Nour, remained on the air, the news agency said.

Overnight, IDF warplanes attacked 18 targets in Lebanon, including the headquarters for the Syrian-backed Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine in east Lebanon.

Israeli planes also attacked Hezbollah headquarters in southern Beirut overnight, according to IDF. Bridges and roads leading to the offices were destroyed in the operation.

Along the Israel-Lebanon border, IDF attacked two Hezbollah outposts, a weapons storage facility used by militants and three fuel stations south of Sidon."



But the Hezbollah are using UNGUIDED, area bombardment rockets on civilian areas- THAT is OK with you, it seems.


"The continued rocket attacks -- including one that authorities said killed a woman and her grandchild Friday -- prompted Israel's Cabinet to approve extended military operations in Lebanon, a spokesman for Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said"


So, CarolC, Grandmothers and their grandchildren are legitimate military targets for Arabs, but roads, weapon storage, and C&C offices are NOT for the Israelis???????

Or is it still that Jews are not "human" enough for you?


IF the Israelis WANTED to inflict civilian casualties, in three days the would have killed a LOT more that the present reported numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:41 PM

Comment
to Bunnahabhain
"The destroyer's big guns ,by the way,are at most 155mm,the same size as most western self propelled artillery pieces, only a little bigger than a tank main gun".

My God these weapons are mere peashooters!...Its always good to be corrected by a military man.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:40 PM

From the link in my last post...

"Israeli planes set fire to fuel storage tanks at Beirut airport late Thursday and at the Jiye power station south of Beirut early Friday. They blasted the highway between Beirut and Damascus at several places, forcing motorists to take mountain side roads to the Syrian capital.

The fighter bombers also struck overpasses, intersections and residential buildings around Hezbollah's security headquarters in the Beirut suburb of Haret Hreik. But they missed the headquarters itself.

An AP photographer who toured the area Friday said he saw no traces of damage or devastation around Hezbollah's security building.

In Jerusalem, the Israeli military spokesman's office said the Hezbollah security headquarters was targeted in the air strikes.

Hezbollah media chief Hussein Rahal Friday confirmed Hezbollah's "security square" in southern Beirut had not been hit and told The Associated Press that reports to the contrary were "not true."

The air strikes in the area of the headquarters knocked down an overpass, badly damaged another, sheered off the facades of buildings, shattered apartment windows and sent balconies crashing onto cars parked below...

...A young man with blood pouring down his face and onto his bare chest was shown on Lebanese TV walking out of a damaged apartment building.

The TV showed a missile had gouged a huge crater out of the main Mar Mikhail crossroads in southern Beirut.

Firemen were seen struggling to put out several fires as glass, aluminum siding and stones littered the streets.

Israeli warships shelled the coastal highway north of Sidon, slowing down traffic considerably but not actually cutting the road, witnesses reported.

Israeli planes also hit transmission antennas for local TV stations in the eastern Bekaa Valley, a Hezbollah stronghold. Anwar Raja of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command said the planes struck the communications towers, but did not hit the guerrillas' base at Qousaya."


This is collective punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:31 PM

I can just picture the scene. The helicopter and fast jet pilots are wondering why they're expected to share their airspace with their own sides artillery fire.

Doing so kills pilots, so it's generally avoided.

The destroyers big guns, by the way, are at most 155mm, the same size as most western self propelled artillery pieces, or only a little bigger than a tank main gun.

And the Palastinians might say some thing along the lines of 'Why can't our fighters live somewhere else'


There's never only one side to a picture

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:29 PM

The Palestinian Ministry of Health has reported that the Israeli armed forces are using a type of toxic or radioactive shell in its attack on the civilian population of Gaza.Some 250 people have been reported wounded so far in the shooting and shelling and the Ministry of Health spokesman said that the Israelis are using a new type of weapon which is causing serious burns and amputations of limbs.
He called for the International Community to raise its collective voice at the illegal use of these weapons on civilian non combatants.
This item can be found in full on the Palestine Solidarity Campaign's website.
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:26 PM

Israel is hitting almost exclusively civilian targets in Gaza and Lebanon. What's more, despite a huge amount of destruction to civilian targets (both human as well as infrastructure) it is somehow, almost "magically" managing to miss hitting the guerrilla targets it says it's actually going after (while destroying all of the civilian structures all around them). Either Israelis are incredibly bad shots, or they're doing it on purpose.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/14072006/2/world-three-lebanese-killed-55-wounded-israeli-air-strikes-lebanon.html

I don't happen to believe the Israelis are such bad shots, myself.

This is, of course, more collective punishment. Which was, as I mentioned before, a favorite tactic of the Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:08 PM

I can picture the scene now.The Palestinian family hiding in a cellar of an apartment block somewhere in crowded Gaza. Israeli tank shells are tearing through the thin breezeblock walls upstairs , the warjets are making supersonic passes a few hundred feet above the rooftops, somewhere out at sea an unseen destroyer has fired its big guns and an apache helicopter is shooting its missile into a tower block because yet another Hamas leader is reputed to be hiding with his extended family there on the third floor.
A bomb bursts just outside, showering debris on the Palestinian family still cowering in the cellar....yes....and what does the head of the family shout out...
"Curses on Hezbollah and Iran the murderers of my people???"
Somehow I just dont see it!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:07 PM

"In the past two days, about 200 rockets have been fired from Lebanon at Israeli targets, according to The Associated Press.

On Thursday, two missiles fired from Lebanon hit the center of Haifa, Israel's third-largest city -- extending beyond the range of any missiles fired at Israel from Lebanon in the past.

Israeli ambassador to the U.N. Dan Gillerman said many missiles that have been fired from Lebanon toward the northern Israel were made in Iran. ...
"Many of the long-range missiles fired into Israel in the recent days were Iranian missiles made by the same regime that is now trying to possess nuclear weapons," Gillerman said at the U.N. on Friday.

When asked by CNN what role Syria or Iran may have played in the current crisis, Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora said it would be "strange" for Hezbollah to have "done this alone." "