BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 01:45 PM

"that they have a God given right to an exclusive state"

So, I will assume that you support a return of all lands to the Jewish owners forcably removed in 1948 throughout the Arab world.


Question for you: Who won WW I, the Allied powers or the Ottoman Empire?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 01:42 PM

"In the Lebanon crisis we have a terrifying glimpse of the future: Iran and its radical allies are pushing toward war. That's the chilling reality behind this week's events. On Tuesday the Iranians spurned an American offer of talks on their nuclear program; on Wednesday their Hezbollah proxy committed what Israel rightly called "an act of war." The radicals want to lure America and Israel deeper into the killing ground, confident that they have the staying power to prevail. We should not play their game."


And the PRIMARY victims of Iran and Hezbollah will be the Palestinian people.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 01:40 PM

Zionism did poison inter faith relationships in the Middle East ...and as yet there has been no recovery.
People who have a history of living in a land without interruption for over a thousand years simply will not accept a declaration from others [Zionists ] that they have a God given right to an exclusive state.
That declaration was given some legitimacy by Lord Balfour in 1917 which is all the more troubling as the man was a well known anti semite.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 01:38 PM

" Tehran should be called to account in the U.N. Security Council not only for its program to enrich uranium but also for its support of Hezbollah. Damascus, which hosts Hezbollah and Hamas, should also come under renewed international pressure, including sanctions. In all the diplomacy, the false lure of "evenhandedness" must not be allowed to obscure the fact that Hezbollah and its backers have instigated the current fighting and should be held responsible for the consequences."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 01:27 PM

"They and their children have never been allowed to return despite having long established roots,property etc in the city."

And the 820,000 Jews driven out of Arab countries- they are not entitled to be resettled in the land that the 640,000 Arabs who fled abandoned? Try blaming the ARAB nations that did not allow the refugees to settle as citizens.


Or do you insist that Jews are not human beings, who are entitled to the same justice as Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 01:22 PM

Haifa: Too Long In Exile!

The city of Haifa in northern Israel has been attacked by Hezbollah fighters using missiles from positions in the Lebanon.

Haifa at the start of the 20th century had a poulation that was over 90% palestinian arab ...both muslim and christian.The Jewish population at that time in Haifa was about 4 % of the city.

Over the next few decades the Jewish population increased sharply because of the Zionist expansion in the country which was under British mandate.By 1948 the Jewish population was still under 50%.

With the declaration of the state of Israel the city was invaded by a 5000 strong Jewish force called the Carmeli Brigade and many of its Palestinian residents fled.They and their children have never been allowed to return despite having long established roots,property etc in the city.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 11:55 AM

ISRAEL OUT OF GAZA,THE WEST BANK AND THE LEBANON!
A public meeting has been called in London this coming monday 17th July at 7pm in the Friends Meeting House , Euston Rd Central London.
Among the speakers will be

                George Galloway MP
                Jeremy Corbyn MP
          Janice Shallice Stop The War Coalition
The meeting will be demanding an end to the onslaught against the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank and the people of Lebanon.
                  All welcome

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 11:32 AM

There are many Jewish people around the world who are also opposed to the Zionist project in Israel.Take Rabbi Moishe Teitelbaum for example who was buried recently having died at the age of 91 in New York.
He was a leader of the ultra orthodox Satmar group of Hassidic Jews and was an outspoken opponent of Zionism....In his view establishing a Jewish secular entity in the Holy Land befor the advent of the Messiah was heresy
"Zionism has caused terrible bloodletting " announced Teitelbaum on avisit to Jerusalem.
The bloodletting continues with dozens of civilians killed in the past few days in the Lebanon including 17 members of two families.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 11:15 AM

Richard B I share all of your concerns and have been following the arguments on this thread.

here is a link to the article Published on Thursday, July 13, 2006 by the Guardian , with the eyewitness account by Safwat Diab of the impact of the invading Israeli troops.

It also comments:

In October 2004, at the European Social Forum in London, an Israeli air-force pilot, Yonatan Shapira, called for sanctions against Israel. A year earlier, Shapira had refused to bomb Palestinian towns and had influenced 26 of his comrades-in-arms to do the same. He spoke of his love for his country and of his conviction that it was on the road to self-destruction. He had come to London to ask for help. Europe was Israel's only hope, he said: it must impose sanctions on his country and force it to make a real peace. About 3,000 people were on their feet cheering him.

And yes, I support Israel's right to exist within the 1967 borders.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:01 AM

PS,

ifor, having looked a bit around the internet, I am quite sure of a few things about you. One of those things is that you have real feelings for the Palestinian people. You are serious, and I do not doubt that you really believe in what you say--I think you would be the same in real life. Please know this: I can respect that, but please also know that my own feelings for the Jewish homeland are likely as strong as are yours for Palestinians and their wish for a homeland. I do not think it right that noncombatants are killed in wars, any wars. I extend that abhorance to the death of Palestinian AND Israeli noncombatants. I think it is just wrong. I am sorry that you do not see things the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:55 AM

ifor, I think you'll also recognize that Gaza has housed members of 'organizations' that attack Israel. They cannot do that without the silence of Palestinians. In fact, I think Israel should withdraw. But they will not until they receive their soldiers back. The IDF will not leave its people behind. Wrere the decision mine, I would immediately return the soldiers, stop the Hezbollah/Hamas attacks, and take away the Israeli rationale for having 'invaded'. However, I think that the people pulling the strings--in this case Arab people pulling the strings--are more than willing to sacrifice Palestinians, as many as necessary. Because their aim is the destabilization and destruction of Israel, not the formation of a sustainable, healthy Palestinian homeland.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:42 AM

Reply to Peace
The letter from Gaza was printed in yesterday's Guardian newspaper [page 12 ]It came as an email to the writer of the article Ahdaf Soueif who has just written a book Mezzaterra..Fragments from the Common Ground.
A few words about the Israeli pull out from Gaza.It did withdraw some 8000 armed Zionist colonialists from Gaza.Their presence being unsustainable among the million plus Palestinian refugees that make up its population.However,since the pullout Israel has continued to attack Gaza with missiles,naval warships tanks and warplanes.Some 200 residents have been killed in quite indiscriminate attacks including the family on the beach a few weeks ago.Incidentally ,many of the Zionists evacuated from Gaza are now living on the illegally occupied West Bank and adding to the Palestinian humiliation there.

The Zionist occupation of Gazza [itself a huge refugee area ] was a study of breathtaking arrogance.The small number of Zionists controlled almost the whole of the beachfront for almost 40 years!No Palestinians allowed.They stole the best land for their settlements.They controlled the scarce water supplies and ensured that Israeli cattle got more that Paleestinian residents.They chopped up Gaza into zones making daily travel of only a few miles a torture and this went on for decades.Palestinians could be kept for hours at these checkpoints which were also closed down completely at times in acts of collective punishment.Gaza was used as a kind of giant prison an experience which the Israelis intend to continue by slightly different means.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 12:05 AM

The notion that Mamas or Hezbollah are NOT working for the Palestinian Authority is strange. Countries that harbour/aid people who attack you are your enemies. The strike at the airport: keep in mind that it landed both civilian AND military aircraft.

That said, I think the Israelis have 'lost' it. They are doing themselves incredible damage in terms of 'public relations' to say nothing of the increasing civilian death toll. The US veto of the UN wish to restrain Israel was a bad move, IMO.

As to attacking Gaza: The israelis have had terrorist attacks coming from there for years. I think until the Palestinians are not treated as pawns by the Arab countries and Israel starts treating Palestinians as people, and until folks like ifor and his crew recognize that Israelis are also people who 60 years ago were themselves refugees, then this present 'action' will NOT stop. However, it must, because what we are seeing is the beginning of a very different war--one that cannot help but escalate. Please keep in mind that if Israel is backed to the sea, they WILL use nuclear weapons. The chance of Armageddon is here and now. I think people who favour one side or the other had best take a step back (and I include myself in that statement) and realize that what is now beginning may become impossible to stop without loss of life that will be numbered in hundreds of thousands or millions. This is no longer brinksmanship. Right now, political postures do not mean a damned thing. The lack of UN intervention, the lack of restraint by Israel AND the various terrorist organizations that target Israel, may well lead to what we have feared (for most of my life anyway): specifically, nuclear war.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 07:59 PM

Richard: You are right, the topic has ranged a bit, but did you really expect it not to?

you wrote:-one Israeli soldier [who is of course by being a soldier a military target].

a military target is such in a time of war. Israel had unilaterally departed Gaza. If there's a war on, you have to acknowledge two (or more) sides to it, and a right to respond. Israel wants her soldier back.

I agree that the Israelis seems to be on a right tear. Reminds me of a bull in the arena that's been bloodied. Possibly they are facing the same dilemma that mechanized, organized forces face against guerrila tactics, they can't be seen to be successful, even when they are.

As to your second sentence: This is not the act of the Palestinian authority nor the act of the Palestinian people-

unfortunately the Palestinian people elected Hamas so it probably is an act of the authority with the tacit approval of the Palestinian people.

It plays into the hands of the extremists everywhere. If you recall what was going on just before things went to hell (this time) Abu Mazin was wringing concessions from Hamas as to acknowledging Israel's right to exist.

As with Afghanistan and Iraq, the terror tactics are being arranged by masters. Check out the classic: "Battle For Algiers". It's all happened before and it will keep happening as long as these tactics get people what they want.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:45 PM

I have but lightly scanned many of the intervening contributions to the thread I started, and I hope that I thereby do no-one an injustice. I think that what I was asking to discuss
has been obscured by simple Israel/Palestine ranting.

However, what I asked seems to me to have been underlined by the intervening Lebanon-Israel events.

Hamas (terrorists/freedom fighters) kidnapped one Israeli soldier [who is of course by being a soldier a military target]. This is not the act of the Palestinian authority nor the act of the Palestinian people.   

Israel attacks Palestinian (Gaza) infrastructure and civilian targets.

Hezbollah (terrorists/freedom fighters) kidnap two Israeli soldiers [who are of course by being soldiers military targets]. This is not the act of the Lebanese government nor the act of the Lebanese people - although there may be some linkage.

Israel attacks Lebanese infrastructure and civilian targets, blames the government and threatens invasion.



Does no-one see the disparity? I may have to eschew the BS zone if I can find no rationality in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:21 PM

GCMHP mean anything to you, ma'am.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:17 PM

Also, knowing that you and the ifor character are involved with an organization that works directly with Palestinians makes it even more troubling that you don't see Israeli children as being human, worthy of safety from terrorist organizations. What a sick bunch you are. Bugger off.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:06 PM

Have you been in touch with Rawia Hamam?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:03 PM

'"Dear friends everywhere
I live in al Twam between Beit Lahia and Jabalia camp.The Israeli troops are moving towards the area where I live .They are 2 km away.In the last 2 days 35 persons were killed and 120 injured .The Israeli troops are shooting and shelling randomly the houses of the civilians....Now while I am writing this email at 10pm ,the tanks are about 500 metres from my house .In the coming hours my home will be in the invaded and occupied areas. I do not know what might happen later.My children are hearing the shootings and explosions.They understand that they are exposed to a threat from which noone can protect them....The only thing I thought I could do was to send this appeal... and hope .
Safwat Diab'

That was not written by an ESL Palestinian. In fact, it is a clumcsy attempt to imitate the style of someone who has English as a second language. Cut the bullshit, Guest,David.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,david
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 05:53 PM

The USA has vetoed a UN motion on Israel to halt its attack on Gaza.The motion was put by Qatar on behalf of a dozen other Arab states.Britain abstained.

david

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 05:45 PM

This message has come from Gaza

"Dear friends everywhere
I live in al Twam between Beit Lahia and Jabalia camp.The Israeli troops are moving towards the area where I live .They are 2 km away.In the last 2 days 35 persons were killed and 120 injured .The Israeli troops are shooting and shelling randomly the houses of the civilians....Now while I am writing this email at 10pm ,the tanks are about 500 metres from my house .In the coming hours my home will be in the invaded and occupied areas. I do not know what might happen later.My children are hearing the shootings and explosions.They understand that they are exposed to a threat from which noone can protect them....The only thing I thought I could do was to send this appeal... and hope .
Safwat Diab

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 05:34 PM

Israel is unwilling to involve the UN in war against the Palestinians....one oly has to think f the UN resolutions it would have to obey...tably the withdrawal from the illegally occupied Palestinian West Bank [RESOLUTION 242 ] .

Also those who remember these things will recall how Israeli artillery slaughtered 109 Lebanese civilians inluding many women and children sheltering at a UN checkpoint called Qana.

Only last week the newly formed UN Human Rights commission voted to condemn Israel actions in Gaza only to have the vote vetoed by surprise,surprise, the USA supported by Britain, France and Germany.
On saturday there will be a protest against the attack on Gaza outside the BBC ,Manchester at 1pm.
ifor

.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 03:46 PM

I think that the UN should be involved in a big way RIGHT NOW. The situation will lead to a hot war (it's a barely warm war right now). I expect that if any surrounding countries decide to mass armor or to mobilize against Israel, the world will wish it had intervened, because the weapons that get used will affect the world and the course of world history. This is quickly becoming more than a squabble. It is VERY serious, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 03:32 PM

Dateline Nazareth....Yes, THAT one

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 03:30 PM

"Katyushas also fell on Thursday morning in Kfar Nasi in the Galilee and in Kibbutz Mahanayim, and along with the rockets in Karmiel, signified an increase in the range of Katyusha rockets to 20-30 kilometers. There were no immediate reports of casualties in the attacks. Hizbullah said that in some of its attacks it was using a rocket called "Thunder 1" for the first time, which may have a longer range than older Katyushas.

On Thursday morning alone, there were confirmed Katyusha attacks on Nahariya, Rosh Pina, Kibbutz Hagoshrim, Kibbutz Mishmar Hayarden, Gadot, Kfar Nasi, Beit Hillel, Kibbutz Mahanayim, Kibbutz Kabri, Mount Hermon, Netiv Haasarah, Mount Meron, Shlomi, Zar'it. "

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 03:28 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 03:28 PM

"The most tangible threats stem from the Katyusha rockets launched by terrorist groups from within Lebanon (the Hizbullah and various Palestinian factions) capable of striking throughout northern Israel, and the Kassam rockets which are currently limited to the Gaza Strip and have a range of about 9 kilometers. Palestinian acquisition of Katyusha rockets would threaten Israel's entire population. "

"The weapon was not accurate but was extremely effective in saturation bombardment. Katyushas were often massed in very large numbers to create a shock effect on enemy forces."

(28 May)"A Katyusha rocket was fired from the Gaza Strip into Israel for the first time on Tuesday, raising fears that Palestinian terror groups have obtained additional weaponry that the IDF had yet to face in its war against Gaza-based terror.

The Katyusha attack, the army said, was a "clear escalation" on the Gaza front and demanded a quick and harsh response.

Unlike the homemade, short-range Kassam rockets frequently launched at Israel, Katyushas have a range of close to 20 kilometers and can carry over 20 kilograms of explosives.

Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for firing the Katyusha, which landed in an open field south of Ashkelon.

Since the disengagement from the Gaza Strip this past summer, the defense establishment has raised concerns that Palestinians would succeed in smuggling Katyusha rockets into Gaza from Egypt. The Rafah border crossing, officials have said, was left "wide open" by European observers and the Palestinians allowing for the entry of senior Iranian and Syrian terror suspects.

The Katyusha fired Tuesday, military officials estimated, was smuggled into Gaza through the Egyptian border. Egyptian soldiers have taken up positions along the border since Israel pulled out of the Philadelphi corridor in August, but to Israel's dismay they have not yet clamped down on weapons smuggling into Gaza."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 02:59 PM

Guess the reason they still control the airspace is to stop the weapons and missiles being delivered by those other peace loving bastards who surround Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: pdq
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 01:51 PM

GUEST,ifor is also
                                  GUEST,Walt
                                  GUEST,David
                                  GUEST,Freddie
                                  GUEST,Albert
                                  and a host of others (different threads, not this one)

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 01:40 PM

Guest ifor:

You have posted two times since my last post which was directed straight to you. You seemed to indicate that you do not accept Israel under any circumstances within any boundries. You also do not seem to have the intestinal fortitude to come right out and say it. So I repeat it once again.:

Let me repeat my question directed to you from 10 Jul 06 - 06:51 PM,
and on 12 Jul 06 - 04:11 PM
and on 12 Jul 06 - 07:20 PM :

I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

A simple 'NO' would suffice. Following that it would be useful to see what you DO bring to the party other than repetitious bunk.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 01:30 PM

More than 70 Katyusha rockets have hit Israel in the past 24 hours, the IDF said.

Missiles critically injured one person and hurt at least 10 others in Safed, about 13 miles (20 kilometers) from the Lebanese border, which local officials said not been hit by Hezbollah rockets since 1972. (Watch the rocket's explosion and town chaos -- 1:45)

Also in northern Israel, a woman was killed and 15 people hurt in a rocket attack in Nahariya, and at least 38 people were injured when rockets hit the Arab village of Carmiel, Israeli ambulance services said.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 01:08 PM

Science has just discovered that if you say the same thing hundreds of times you commit it to memory. Glad to see that science is right.

So, is it OK for 'Palestinians' to kill Israeli kids?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 12:40 PM

Reply to Guest
The Israelis pulled out of Gaza because they could not hold it with 8000 Zionist colonialists trying to subdue one and a half million Palestinians in Gaza...of course while they were there the Israelis made the Palestinians lives a misery stealing their water,land,building checkpoints and shooting the Palestinians when and where they could.

They also made a mockery of the pull out.Israel still controls the air space ,land borders and coastal waters of Gaza.It even controls the Gaza crossing into Egypt.Hundreds are stranded there as I write.

Israel has killed hundreds in Gaza since the pullout with shellings,missile strikes and naval bombardment being prominent.The capture of the Israeli army corporal [with the french passport ] was in response to these Israeli attacks.
Now of course it is trying to pound Gaza to bits.
ifor
You quote from the song "Where have all the flowers gone"... great song....there's another one from the same period which is perhaps more pertinent
"We were waste deep in the big muddy but the damn fool kept saying press on"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 12:26 PM

Let us hope they will stop killing Jewish men women and children which precipitates this present war. Remember, the Israelis pulled out of Gaza, and were then attacked by terrorists for their trouble. When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn... to quote the words of a song.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 11:43 AM

Ten civilians were injured when an Israeli missile hit the Palestine foreign ministry in Gaza yesterday.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Walt
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 11:37 AM

Forty civilians have been killed in the Israeli attack on the Lebanon including 10 members of one family and 7 members of another family in Southern Lebanon.
Israeli planes and warships have entered Lebanese airspace and territorial waters and bombs are raining down.
Walt

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 11:30 AM

COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT IS A WAR CRIME!
Israel is intensifying its collective punishment of the Palestinian people in Gaza ,one of the most densely populated areas on earth.At least 51 Palestinians have been killed and around 150 wounded ,the majority of them civilians, mostly children,since Israel launched its attack.
At Al Awada hospital in Jabalia refugee camp 5 children have been brought in shot in the chest or abdomen.These children are aged between 12 and 15.
In the east of Gaza an Israeli shell killed a mother and two of her children..
According to a Palestinian network coordinator ,"Since the 8th June over 60 Palestinians have been killed and 200 wounded ."
These include men,women and children.
Gaza is under siege and warfare is being waged indiscriminately by Israel.The power plant has been blown up and there is a severe shortage of drinking water.Much of the water that is available is contaminated and dirty water has also polluted agricultural land.Raw sewage is making life almost impossible for the residents of Gaza.
Hospitals are working by emergency generators only and many workers have not been paid for a month or more.
Merkava tanks have penetrated into Gaza and homes and other buildings have been shelled and wrecked.Already before the latest attack some 70% of Gazans were living below the poverty line .The attack by Israel only adds to the prevailing humanitarian crisis.
Sonic booms are terrifying the children of Gaza who are already suffering from stress and malnutrition. Bedwetting problems are commonplace.
Gaza is a prison with freedom of movement denied. Residents have been used as human shields as bulldozers have demolished homes and uprooted gardens.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:43 AM

ifor,

"There are now some 400000 Zionists living illegally on the West Bank.In 1967 there were none."


I am glad to see that you, if not CarolC, haqve admitted that the Arabs have ethnically cleansed the Jews from the West Bank during the period 1948 to 1967.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:02 AM

The history of Palestine? is the first world war far enough back, or shall I start with the big bang?

Under the British mandate following the first world war, there was widespread jewish immigration to some areas of Palestine. There was only one reliable census taken, in 1931. All the others are less certain, so most figures cannot be taken as exactly accurate.

Areas of Jewish settlement had a growth rate of 157% in Arab population between 1931 and 1945, while in those with few or no Jewish settlers, the mean growth rate of Palestinian Arab population was 127%. Overall, the mean growth rate of Palestinian Arab population was 142% from 1931 to 1945. The urban areas Haifa had the highest growth rate, probably due to British port activity. There was a shift in population from the south and urban centers to the North. and Jerusalem, Ramla and Tulkarm had the highest growth rates.

So this is the Zionist plan to drive the Palastinians out?

From a balanced and well researched piece

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,orif
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 02:42 AM

The trouble with the Palestinian supporters on Mudcat and elsewhere is that they will not face up to the history of Israel.
The Palestinians have spent decades slaughtering the Jews and attempting to expel them from their homes and land and indeed their country.
The state of Israel was founded on the land of the Israelites. The Jewish people had been terrorised,slaughtered and exiled for centuries.
In 1967 the Israelis were surrounded on all sides by their enemies who promised to destroy them. They fought back and only in this way did they survive.
Since then they have been attacked on all fronts and all age groups as male, female, soldier, tourist, schoolchild.This is daily fare for Israelis.At the heart of the matter is the refusal of the Arab countries to acknowledge the presence of Israel.
Now armed Palestinian paramilitary terrorists steal onto Israeli land, shoot guns and rockets into Israeli villages, kill and dismember their own people who are fingered as 'collaborators' and continue to attempt to defeat Israel via a campaign of terror.
The Palestinian response to a criticism of this on this thread is to demand the de-recognition of Israel within any borders whatsoever.They show no concern or understanding for the Israeli people ...the indiginous population of Israel...How could they? Zealous Muslim teachings and the surrounding Arab states, often using UN funds, have been used to indoctrinate young Palestinians into an uneducated rage against people they do not know nor are encouraged to understand, and give them a vain hope that they can move into a somehow depopulated land at some time in the future.
There will never be land nor peace for Palestinians while they wage war on the people of Israel by any means.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 02:29 AM

Must be morning in the British Isles.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 02:28 AM

You are a hate-filled person who does NOT care that children die. You needed no brain washing because in your case a light rinse would have done.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 02:27 AM

Ten of the 27 dead in last night's attack on the Lebanon by Israeli armed forces were children.They were bombed from the air as was Beirut International Airport.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 02:23 AM

The trouble with the Zionist supporters on Mudcat and elsewhere is that they will not face up to the history of Palestine.
The Zionists have spent decades slaughtering the Palestinians and expelling them from their homes and land and indeed their country.
The state of Israel was founded on Palestinian land.The Palestinian people had to be terrorised,slaughtered and exiled for that to happen.
In 1967 the Palestinians on the West Bank faced a further onslaught with the invasion by Israel.Who were these Palestinians? In the main they were the refugees who had fled from what is now Israel.
Since then they have been shelled,bombed,shot at and imprisoned.This is the daily fare for Palestinians.At the heart of the matter is the stealing of Palestinian land by Israel.
As stated previously the Zionist presence on the West Bank in 1967 was precisely nil.Now there are 400000 armed Zionist paramilitary colonialists who steal land, shoot into Palestinian villages , build the apartheid wall and humiliate the Palestinians on a daily basis.
The Zionist response to a criticism of this on this thread is to demand the recognition of the 1967 borders.They show no concern or understanding for the Palestinian people ...the indiginous population of Palestine...How could they? Zionism has always trained its adherents in the belief that the land is God given to the Zionist people and others, despite being settled there for hundreds if not thousands of years, must depart.
There will never be peace for Palestinians and Israelis while Palestinian land is stolen ,their identity denied and their right to return refused.
The Zionists demand that the victim apologises to the aggressor!And so the Palestinians fight back!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 07:51 PM

In 1946 the King David Hotel in Jerusalem was blown up by a Zionist gang made up of Irgun and Haganah members.91 people including Jews ,Palestinians and Europeans were slaughtered .Many others were wounded when the 7 story hotel was destroyed.This was an atrocity carried out by Zionists.

The King David Hotel was the British military headquarters. The argument could be made that it was therefore a military target.

Be that as it may, the Irgun warned the British military commanders well in advance of the bombing and advised that the hotel be evacuated. The British refused to evacuate the hotel.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 07:32 PM

I think Ifor must be a politician. There are various simple questions that have been asked to him, and he doesn't answer them, he just carries on with whatever he wanted to say. Lets try another one.....

Ifor, are you an early version of a computer debating system? Your programmers have got the diatribe right, but not the actually answering questions bit. Is there a better version available yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 07:20 PM

Guest ifor:

You have posted two times since my last post which was directed straight to you. I repeat it once again. It should be easy to understand it as written below but I'll try to put it in one syllable words if that is what you require:

Let me repeat my question directed to you from 10 Jul 06 - 06:51 PM,
and on 12 Jul 06 - 04:11 PM :

I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 07:14 PM

ifor likely thinks so.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 06:58 PM

IS IT OK WHEN PALESTINIANS KILL ISRAELI KIDS?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 06:16 PM

It's your bile that makes me want to puke. The notion that when terrorists kill innocents (but they are YOUR terrorists killing a people you don't like) it's OK. NO, ifor. You are a piece of crap. You don't mind Israeli kids being killed, do you? So it's not about right or wrong for you, it's about killing Jews. Piss of and die.