BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 11:29 PM

CarolC you would not know a bigot from a realist, and you certainely dont know me.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 10:12 PM

Good. I agree you should.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 10:04 PM

Well, there you go. Still, I don't see anyone who is arguing for human rights for Palestinians posting those kinds of things from Palestinian leaders as if they were good and legitimate things to say, unlike Golda Meir, who repeatedly gets trotted out in threads like this one as if that bigoted and racist remark was something profound and insightful.

Which, I think, tells us a lot about the mindsets of people who quote those kinds of things.

Those of us who advocate for human rights for Palestinians, at least recognize bigoted and racist language when it comes from Palestinian leaders. Many of those who argue against those of us who advocate for human rights for Palestinians do not recognize bigoted and racist language when it comes from Israeli leaders.

And that is why I will continue to point out the bigoted and racist nature of that remark every time I see someone using it as if it were not a bigoted and racist remark, as I have done in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:34 PM

Legitimate Criticism of Israel? 2000:

: "The covetous, racist, and hated Jew Shylock, who cut the [pound of] flesh from Antonio's chest with the knife of hatred, invades you with his money, his modern airplanes, his missiles, and his nuclear bombs.
Dr. 'Ali 'Aqleh 'Ursan, Chairman of the Arab Writers Association in Syria, Al-Usbu' Al-Adabi (Syria), February 5, 2000.
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP7200#_edn6

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:32 PM

Chairman Arafat expresses his opinions about the Jewish People - "I have no use for Jews" -1996

"We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem....All the rich Jews who will get compensation will travel to America....We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps. Within five years we will have six to seven million Arabs living in the West Bank and in Jerusalem....You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State....I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews."
Yasser Arafat, then head of the PLO and PA President - Private speech entitled "The Impending Total Collapse of Israel", Stockholm, Sweden, January 30, 1996

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:26 PM

The bottom line is that a country is strugging fot its very survival--namely Israel. I know you will say the asme about Palestine. But to suggest that either 'side' in this has clean hands is to be blind to the truth, IMO. And I happen to know that you see quite well.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:23 PM

No 'quite possibly' about it, Carol.


Mahathir told his audience, which included heads of state from an array of Islamic nations, "The Europeans killed 6 million Jews out of 12 million. But today the Jews rule the world by proxy: They get others to fight and die for them."

He also said the Jews invented "socialism, communism, human rights and democracy" to help them gain "control of the most powerful countries and they, this tiny community, have become a world power."

Some commentators have suggested that Mahathir's speech last week at the 57-nation Organization of the Islamic Conference deserves a second reading, beyond the anti-Semitism that initially earned it headlines. They say the speech contains an important message about Muslim self-help.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:14 PM

Quite possibly so, Peace. But I don't see anyone quoting any racist remarks from them as if they said something profound and insightful, unlike the bigoted and racist Golda Meir, whose bigoted and racist remark has been quoted in this thread as if it is something profound and insightful.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 08:21 PM

Like there are no racist 'Palestinian' leaders? Hamas leaders?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 08:14 PM

Golda Meir was a bigot (and a racist). There will be peace in Palestine when Israelis learn to love their children more than they love what belongs to the Palestinians.

Gaza was never free. It may not have had settlers and soldiers in it, but Israel was still dropping bombs on it and killing a lot of civilians in the process, and it was still controling its borders, air space, and beaches, and as a result, its economy and autonomy.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:18 PM

http://countrystudies.us/israel/75.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 05:46 PM

Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 05:35 PM

As Golda Meyer opined "the only time there will be peace between the Arabs and the Jews will be when the Arabs learn to love their children more than they hate us"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,guest native
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 05:28 PM

Can anyone tell me where Israel is getting its oil from,it needs oil for their tanks

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: pdq
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 01:46 PM

From the Times Magazine article cited above:

          "...Before the eyes of the whole world, Israel left Gaza. Every Jew, every soldier, every military installation, every remnant of Israeli occupation was uprooted and taken away.

How do the Palestinians respond? What have they done with Gaza, the first Palestinian territory in history to be independent, something neither the Ottomans nor the British nor the Egyptians nor the Jordanians, all of whom ruled Palestinians before the Israelis, ever permitted? On the very day of Israel's final pullout, the Palestinians began firing rockets out of Gaza into Israeli towns on the other side of the border. And remember: those are attacks not on settlers but on civilians in Israel proper, the pre-1967 Israel that the international community recognizes as legitimately part of sovereign Israel, a member state of the U.N. A thousand rockets have fallen since.

For what possible reason? Before the withdrawal, attacks across the border could have been rationalized with the usual Palestinian mantra of occupation, settlements and so on. But what can one say after the withdrawal?

The logic for those continued attacks is to be found in the so-called phase plan adopted in 1974 by the Palestine National Council in Cairo. Realizing that they would never be able to destroy Israel in one fell swoop, the Palestinians adopted a graduated plan to wipe out Israel. First, accept any territory given to them in any part of historic Palestine. Then, use that sanctuary to wage war until Israel is destroyed."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 01:33 PM

Right you are, Tom. I'd guess you read this excellent analysis from Time Magazine.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Tom
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 12:31 PM

The violence unfolding between Israelis and Palestinians today is utterly without purpose. Israel has evacuated Gaza, and what does Hamas do? It doesn't put all its energy into building a nest for its young there — a decent state and society, with jobs. Instead, it launches hundreds of rockets into Israel.

The Palestinians could have a state on the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem tomorrow, if they and the Arab League clearly recognized Israel, normalized relations and renounced violence. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know Israel today. But those driving Palestinian politics seem determined to destroy Israel in its territory — even if it means destroying themselves in their own territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 02:04 PM

ifor,

" while about 640,000 Moslem Palestinians were displaced by the creation of Isreal in 1948, over 820,000 Jews were driven out of Arab nations. Will you give them back their lands, or do you insist that Jews are not as worthy as Moslems?"

Since you have NOT responded to this, I will presume that you do consider that Jews are not as worthy as moslems.

YOU have defined yourself as a racist, bigoted individual.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,guest native
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 09:48 PM

If they talk about the Balfour procumation they shoud read all of it. If people talk about god given them Palistine they should also note the people in the Bible comited every sin possible. Just read it

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:45 PM

The Brits have the standard of living they do as a result of having had an Empire. Their exploitation of various peoples was terrible. Hey ifor, whatcha gotta say about that?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: pdq
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:38 PM

"not a day goes by when the Sun doesn't set on the British Empire"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:32 PM

So, shall we discuss the British Empire?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:32 PM

I didn't think Brits were that clueless. Live and learn I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,orif
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:30 PM

The people you are calling Palestinian have reproduced in record numbers with the help of Israeli medicine. Some genocide. They are penned up as you call it due to their leadership being unable to arrive at a peaceful solution and having tried most every other solution including the election of a government with war as its only national solution. When not 'penned up' they have made very useful citizens in surrounding Arab countries and the West, except for instances of being killed in large numbers in Lebanon and Jordan by their fellow Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:24 PM

It seems wrong to me that many of the American born and raised armed right wing Zionist paramilitaries living in the illegal Zionist settlements on the West Bank have free and unfettered right of entry to Israel while Palestinians born within the borders of Israel and now living as   refugees in exile have no such right.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: pdq
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:17 PM

ifor is a Brit of some sort. Thank God!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,guest native
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:17 PM

I looked up to find out what a terroist is I also looked up soldrer. The word are easy reversable

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:54 PM

Uh, the line to leave forms to the right.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:51 PM

So I take it you'll be leaving North America soon then? In the interest of returning the land to those your ancestors stole it from?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:31 PM

I think the Palestinian people, penned in like cattle behind their apartheid wall, half starved in Gaza ,stacked up in their thousands in Israeli jails and forever denied the right to return to their homes and farms will be less than impressed by Israel's "original space research".
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,orif
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:55 PM

I'll see your orange and raise you a heart medication, original space research, state supported medical care, and the relocation of hundreds of thousands of displaced people from Arab lands.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:53 PM

Jew baiters and race haters
Ain't going to change my world

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,orif
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:52 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:50 PM

Saying it over and over again still leaves it being bullshit, ifor.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:38 PM

You will find that the Zionists did indeed steal and grab Palestinian land when the state of Israel was declared.In fact it hijacked an entire homeland from the Palestinian people in order to establish a Zionist state.What did that mean ?

It meant that hundreds of thousands of Palestinian were expelled because of the terrorism of the Zionist armed militias like the Irgun.

In the village of Deir Yassin for example around 350 Palestinian villagers were butchered with knives or shot dead or blown up with grenades.This massacre occured on the 9th April 1948.Those who committed the mass murder were led by a Zionist leader called Menachim Begin who went on to be the Israeli Prime Minister when the Lebanon was invaded in 1982.

The Zionists went on to steal land, houses , shops, olive groves businesses and whole towns and cities like Jaffa and Acre .

The refugees, who have never been allowed to return and their children and grandchildren, are the Palestinians who are now being bombed, strafed and blockaded in Gaza and in the towns and refugee camps of the illegally occupied West Bank.

The Zionists claim that Palestine was only ever inhabited by a few nomads and was mainly desert.Nothing could be further from the truth!

The Jaffa orange which has come to symbolise Israeli agriculture was grown in Palestinian fruit groves and orchards stolen from Palestinians who had tilled them for centuries .The orange groves of Jaffa go back to the beginning of the 18th century and in 1880 some 30 million were harvested there with many exported to Europe.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:57 PM

And stop with the shite about Israelis having stolen the land, etc, That is claptrap. The Palestinians have been pawns for the surrounding Arab countries for decades. You who claim to support Palestinians use them as pawns, too. Isn't there enough oil money to build a damned country for Palestinians? Isn't there? But no. Racist bastards would rather slam Israelis for having a homeland. You hate Jews. Say so, get it off your chests and FO.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:49 PM

Would those of you who claim to so support the cause of the Palestinians please GO there and lend a hand? You are doing nothing from your computer.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Ifor
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:40 PM

Reply to C Ham,
My comments about the Zionist mass murderer Dr Baruch Goldstein are correct and no amount of villification by you can alter the facts which have been widely reported in Israel and indeed on Wikipaedia itself.
Baruch killed 29 muslim worshippers and injured over a hundred others before being killed himself by survivors of the massacre.He was armed with an Israeli assault weapon and dressed in army uniform.

His tombstone became a pilgrimage site for those with right wing leanings .His death was officially classed as "murder".

The local Religious Council of Kiryat Arba declared the his gravesite a memorial and a proper cemetery and his supporters then installed sidewalks,spotlights and candles etc.

One battle between the police and these extreme Zionist supporters lasted several hours !

A support group "The Friends of Goldstein"hold celebrations and yearly feasts in commemoration of this killer near the gravesite.
This commemoration certainly justifies my comment that he is hailed as a visionary in some Zionist circles.
Avi Shlaim has written at length about the poisoning of Jewish and Palestinian relationships in his excellent book "The Iron Wall ",Penguin 2000.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,orif
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 11:10 AM

The Jewish people have regained their homeland at the expense of their own blood and toil.

The indigenous population, many of whom were Jews, had the option of accepting this fact. When many of them allied with the surrounding pan nationalist Arab countries and tried to kill the Israeli State, they set in motion the circumstances that led to their own suffering.

As to some long-lived connection to the past, a load of Turkish land grants and certificates means nothing.

They were squatters then, they are squatters now.

That's how the Arab countries feel about them, they are useful as long as they irritate Israel. If they are not doing that, the hell with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 11:00 AM

Israel does not recognise the presence of its troops and settlers in the West Bank and Gaza Strip as an occupation, and when former Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon used the O-word to describe what was happening in Gaza, he was forced to rephrase by his own attorney-general.

If Israel recognised that the West Bank and Gaza were occupied, rather than "disputed", two things would follow. First, the Geneva Convention would apply fully to those territories, making it illegal for settler families to move into them and for thousands of Palestinian men, women and children to be taken out to face indefinite "security detention" in Israeli jails. Second, instead of simply talking about a "viable Palestinian state", Israel would have formally acknowledged the existence of a separate entity west of the River Jordan.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 09:07 AM

Dr Baruch Goldstein,the American born Zionist settler who opened fire with an assault rifle issued by the Israeli army killed 29 Palestinian worshippers at the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron on the illegally occupied West Bank is hailed as a visionary in some Zionist circles.
Such is the extent to which Zionism has poisoned relations between Palestinians and their oppressors.
ifor

Attempting to paint Goldstein as a Zionist visionary or hero is modern day blood libel. Ifor is so full of shit you can actually see it leaking from his pores.

As noted on Wikipedia, Goldstein's actions were immediately condemned by the Israeli government, the mainstream Israeli parties and the Israeli populace in general. Spokespeople for all the organized denominations of Judaism denounced his act as immoral and as terrorism. The Kach movement, to which he belonged, was outlawed. The victims of the shooting received financial compensation.

In an address to the Knesset the Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin denounced the US-born Goldstein as a "foreign implant" and an "errant weed." He continued, "We say to this horrible man and those like him: you are a shame on Zionism and an embarrassment to Judaism." Binyamin Netanyahu, head of the Likud party declared, "This was a despicable crime. I express my unequivocal condemnation.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:01 AM

Danger, pedant alert. Elected government ministers if you prefer.

German soldiers were legitimate targets of the resistance, weren't they?

The difference here is the difference between a kidnapper of a soldier being caught and fairly tried, on the one hand (not occurring at present) and innocent civilians and non-complicit government officials being targetted - rather in the same way the Gestapo would select at random and murder members of a French village in which German troops were killed by the resistance.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:01 AM

correction
last line of the above posting should read ...and that seems to piss off those on this website who are apologists for the Zionists....

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 01:06 AM

On one side you have the one of the most powerful and most technologically advanced armies in the world armed with weapons like the latest jet air to ground fighters,apache helicopters,modern tanks, armoured bulldozers and even quite a few nuclear weapons [Mordecai Vanunu is still not being allowed to leave Israel despite renouncing his Israeli citizenship ] .
On the other hand the Palestiniand are fighting back with rifles,some homemade rockets and stones.
The Palestinians have been expelled,slaughtered ,humiliated and imprisoned and yet still they rise....and that seems to piss off those on this website who are their apologists.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:54 AM

So go fight for the friggin' Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:53 AM

"For decades Palstinian lives have been sacrificed to create space for Jewish lives on Palestinian land renamed Jewish land.For over a generation the attempt to construct a Zionist Jewish identity explicitly denied Palestinian identity. The long confrontation with the Palestinians have fostered those not infrequent Zionist outbursts that have parallels with the genocidal racism and unbridled use of violence from the nazi era."
These words were written by a Jewish writer John Rose and go to the heart of what the Zion ists have done.
Dr Baruch Goldstein,the American born Zionist settler who opened fire with an assault rifle issued by the Israeli army killed 29 Palestinian worshippers at the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron on the illegally occupied West Bank is hailed as a visionary in some Zionist circles.
Such is the extent to which Zionism has poisoned relations between Palestinians and their oppressors.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:35 PM

"what entitles Israel...to intern foreign heads of state..."(?)

And just which 'state' are you talking about, Richard Bridge?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:22 PM

Nothing. The same nothing that entit;les 'Palestinians' to attack unarmed Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:13 PM

No, I just want to know what entitles Israel to attack a civilian population and to intern foreign heads of state on the pretext that an INDEPENDENT (like the IRA, remember) set of people have kidnapped an Israeli soldier.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 06:46 PM

So what? Many of those people figure that to achieve Armageddon, the Stae of Israel has to cease to exist. The coming of the Messiah can't happen until then. You seem to be quoting lunatic fringes on both sides.