BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 10:04 PM

Well, there you go. Still, I don't see anyone who is arguing for human rights for Palestinians posting those kinds of things from Palestinian leaders as if they were good and legitimate things to say, unlike Golda Meir, who repeatedly gets trotted out in threads like this one as if that bigoted and racist remark was something profound and insightful.

Which, I think, tells us a lot about the mindsets of people who quote those kinds of things.

Those of us who advocate for human rights for Palestinians, at least recognize bigoted and racist language when it comes from Palestinian leaders. Many of those who argue against those of us who advocate for human rights for Palestinians do not recognize bigoted and racist language when it comes from Israeli leaders.

And that is why I will continue to point out the bigoted and racist nature of that remark every time I see someone using it as if it were not a bigoted and racist remark, as I have done in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 10:12 PM

Good. I agree you should.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 11:29 PM

CarolC you would not know a bigot from a realist, and you certainely dont know me.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 11:43 PM

"If we are criticized because we do not bow because we cannot compromise on the question 'To be or not to be,' it is because we have decided that, come what may, we are and we will be."

Golda Meir

BTW, Dave's no bigot or racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 01:00 AM

Anyone who doesn't understand that the Palestinians are fighting for (and dying for) their children's homes, and their freedom, and their future (all things that we here in the US and you in Canada say we would fight and die for if needed), doesn't see Palestinians as human beings. Anyone who doesn't think the Palestinians have a right to fight for these things doesn't see Palestinians as human beings. People who don't see other human beings as human beings are bigots and racists.

You may not be a racist, Dave, but you don't seem to have the ability to recognize racism when it is displayed by those you endorse.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 03:51 AM

Israel Pulled out of Gaza, to the internationally recognised boundaries, but the Palastinian millitants took this as a sign of weakness, and carried on attacks from there.

The rockets they fire are not as powerful, or as long ranged as Israeli artillery, but they still kill people, mainly civilians. As a statement of intent, they are very powerful, and each one says that the Palastinian authorities either can not or will not stop attacks on civilians.

Are the Palastinian people helped by a Goverment of theirs that pays the families of suicide bombers? A bomber kills some more civilians on a bus, and Israel closes the borders for a week, so the Palastinians with jobs in israel can't work. An impoverised and hungry people are more likley to turn to violence, and it's violence that keeps them in that poverty.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 04:38 AM

CarolC, like Arafat, like Hamas, like the former supporters of pan arabic nationalism, do not see the "Palestinians" as people. They view them as a convenient club to beat about as long as it serves the purpose of aiding the destruction of Israel and embarassing the United States of America and the West.

CarolC, the Palestinian Authority and various Palestinian NGO's have been receiving substantial aid from the EU for some considerable time (to the tune of $640 million per year) - What have they done with it?

In Gaza, since Israel withdrew what have those whose responsibility it is to look after the "Palestinian" population's best interests and needs done for those people? Built roads? hospitals? schools? Initiated any major Government/Local Authority infrastructure projects that would create employment? Please tell us about them.

Likewise tell us about similar enterprises that would benefit the "Palestinian" people that have occurred on the West Bank. I do actually think you will find instances in the West Bank but few if any sponsored by the PA or by Hamas.

The "Palestinian" people are as leaderless now as they have ever been, they are regarded by you and the likes of you as just bricks in the wall, pawns in the game, to be kept in poverty and misery purely for the benefit of a political agenda. The elected representatives of the "Palestinian" people have it in their power to improve the lot of their people, they always have had that power. To translate that into something tangible only requires the will to proceed and the leadership to implement the actions required. Unfortunately for the people involved this also requires that their leaders look forwards to the future and what can be, not backwards at the past and what might have been.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 06:24 AM

Having been a part of the international effort to develop peace initiatives in the Middle East I do have an insight into the problems, and at least am not just an opinionated armchair quarterback analyst. There will be no peace for the Palestinians until they accept the fact that Israel is here to stay.

The Gaza strip is one place where they can get on with rebuilding a country, economy, and life for their children. The beaches are a great place to develop tourism and recreational facilities, but murder, civil warfare and continually attacking Israel will not promote such industry. The situation is just prolonging instilled hatred, violence and misery for each successive generation of Palestinian children. There is no future for them unless they break this cycle; and the international support for them is rapidly drying up.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 01:07 PM

Israel Pulled out of Gaza, to the internationally recognised boundaries, but the Palastinian millitants took this as a sign of weakness, and carried on attacks from there.

This is wrong. Israel removed the settlers and the soldiers, but they did not end the blockade of Gaza or the control of Gaza's borders and air space. And they did not stop dropping bombs on Gazan civilians. Such behavior is hardly a sign of weakness, and it is legitimate to fight against being treated in this way. You would fight it too if you were in their shoes.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 01:29 PM

CarolC, like Arafat, like Hamas, like the former supporters of pan arabic nationalism, do not see the "Palestinians" as people. They view them as a convenient club to beat about as long as it serves the purpose of aiding the destruction of Israel and embarassing the United States of America and the West.

Hamas see the Palestinians as people. Arafat and the former supporters of pan Arabic nationalism... I have no idea whether or not they saw Palestinians as people. Your wording is confusing, but it looks like you might be saying that I don't see Palestinians as people. If so, that's an interesting rhetorical device, but it has no basis in any objective reality. People who believe in equal rights for everyone are recognising the humanity and "peopleness" of everyone. People who think that certain groups of people are entitled to fewer rights than others (like you, Teribus) do not see the groups they discriminate against as people.

In Gaza, since Israel withdrew what have those whose responsibility it is to look after the "Palestinian" population's best interests and needs done for those people? Built roads? hospitals? schools? Initiated any major Government/Local Authority infrastructure projects that would create employment? Please tell us about them.


Yes, all of those things... they built roads, hospitals, schools, and all of the other kinds of civil infrastructure that are needed to carry on the business of building a country. Israel has destroyed much of this civil infrastructure by bombing it. Same thing in the West Bank.

The "Palestinian" people are as leaderless now as they have ever been

Possibly.

They are regarded by you and the likes of you as just bricks in the wall, pawns in the game, to be kept in poverty and misery purely for the benefit of a political agenda.

This is pretty laughable, Teribus, and it shows how desperate you are to try to score points. It's the Israelis (with the help of people like you) who are keeping the Palestinians in poverty and misery. And it's people like you who are responsible for the deaths of all of the innocent civilians, both Palestinians as well as Israelis, that have resulted from the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and the former occupation and current stranglehold and bombardment of Gaza. People like you are not only keeping the Palestinians in poverty and misery, but also keeping the Israelis in fear and uncertainty.

The elected representatives of the "Palestinian" people have it in their power to improve the lot of their people, they always have had that power.

This is bullshit. Israel has only one goal with regard to the Palestinians, and that is to remove all of them from the land that they have lived on, worked on, and farmed for more than a thousand years. Israel will not leave them alone until they are all gone from that part of the world. Everything else they do is just clever sleight of hand to distract your attention from their real agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 01:36 PM

How much time have you spent inside the occupied areas, living along side of and listening to the Palestinians there, Dave? Until you've spent enough time in those areas to really know how the people there live, you are no more qualified to say you understand what's going on there than I am. Less qualified, in fact, because I, at least, have read what many of the people who do live there have to say about it. Clearly, you have not.

The Gaza strip is one place where they can get on with rebuilding a country, economy, and life for their children.

Not while Isreal is still dropping bombs on their children, and preventing them from having a viable economy through keeping a stranglehold on their borders and air space. That is what is prolonging the misery for the children of Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 01:41 PM

I wonder if, inher entire life, CarolC has ever had sexual relations outside of marriage. If so, according to Hamas, she deserves to be dead. If she were in Gaza or the West Bank and a member of her family killed her under those circumstances, it would be a matter of honor and they would not be prosecuted.

BTW, it wouldn't matter even if she were raped.

That's the kind of human rights exponents that CarolC has as her heroes.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 01:57 PM

CarolC I'm not sure you see the Palestinians as people, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 01:59 PM

No it isn't, GUEST. You are saying that the very women you pretend to care about (who are sometimes treated in that way, but hardly in every case), should be punished, kept in poverty and misery, and denied the same basic freedoms that you and I enjoy, just because some of the men in their midst are guilty of the things you describe.

The women who actually live there have said that, 1. They want Israel to leave the Palestinians alone to build their country, and 2. That the things Israel is doing to Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem are making it much more difficult for the women (and the men) of these areas to facilitate the kinds of changes that are needed to help eliminate the kinds of behaviors you have described. By supporting Israel's occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and its stranglehold on Gaza, you are helping to prolong Palestinian women's experience of the behaviors you mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 02:00 PM

People who believe in equal rights for everyone are recognising the humanity and "peopleness" of everyone. People who think that certain groups of people are entitled to fewer rights than others (like you, Teribus) do not see the groups they discriminate against as people.

I do not believe in equal rights for everyone. Should the criminal have the same rights as the homeowner they've distubed at 3 am? Should the six year old child have the same right to vote as her parents?

Sweeping statements like that, covering everything, without qualification, are generally very easy to dispute. Engage brain before typing, and insert a qualifier or two. A 'virtually all' or ' normally' such like should be all you need to prevent people like me going out to the exteme ends of your staments, and kicking holes in them.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 02:01 PM

Clearly you don't, robomatic. If you did, you wouldn't defend Israel's practice of treating them like they are not people.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 02:04 PM

I do not believe in equal rights for everyone. Should the criminal have the same rights as the homeowner they've distubed at 3 am? Should the six year old child have the same right to vote as her parents?

Of course they should. The criminal should have the same access to impartial justice as the non-criminal. The six year old should have equal right to vote at the legal age as her parents did at the legal age.

Sweeping statements like that, covering everything, without qualification, are generally very easy to dispute.

You didn't dispute them. You distorted their meaning to try to make them fit your argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 03:14 PM

You didn't dispute them. You distorted their meaning to try to make them fit your argument.

I distorted nothing, I merely asked some rhetorical questions. You inserted the context, or lack thereof, and decided that I was distorting something or other, when all I was doing was pointing out that generally, all embracing staements are either either wrong or facile.

If you want universal statements that actually mean something, stick to science. If you want a debate, then semantics, as you'll find in issue here, are what you want....

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 03:43 PM

You did distort it. You tried to make it look like not allowing an underage child to vote (for instance) is not giving that child the same right as an adult. This is not the case. The adult wasn't allowed to vote as a child, either, and so has exactly the same rights as the child.

And you tried to make it look like a homeowner who is disturbed at 3 am would have different rights than the criminal who disturbs him or her, but the homeowner would also suffer the same consequences if he or she disturbed another homeowner at 3 am, and would therefore have exactly the same rights.

Unless in your world, some people are allowed to vote at different ages than others, and some homeowners are allowed to disturb other people at 3 am and others are not. And if that is the case, then I concede your point, but I also wonder what sort of weirdly discriminatory society you live in.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 03:49 PM

CarolC I almost lost my life during an Israeli attack on Palestinian terrorists once, Have you?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 03:55 PM

Probably not, but CarolC almost lost her mind once when was attacked by reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 03:57 PM

CarolC I almost lost my life during an Israeli attack on Palestinian terrorists once, Have you?

Nope. But that is entirely irrelevant to what we are discussing. We are discussing what it is like for the Palestinians to live under Israeli occupation and, in the case of Gaza, an Israeli stranglehold on borders and air space, and an ongoing campaign of bombings and other kinds of attacks (ongoing for many years). That experience you mention does not in any way give you a better understanding than me about what life is like for the people living under such conditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 04:02 PM

CarolC you insist on making these debates personal attacks on my integrity. I cannot believe you actually know very much about this subject, and clearly you are not impartial in this matter. I suggest you get your information from more than one source and make that source other than Palestinian propaganda. Then debate with people stating facts rather than personal emotional driven drivel. Nuff said..

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 04:08 PM

You did distort it. You tried to make it look like not allowing an underage child to vote (for instance) is not giving that child the same right as an adult. This is not the case. The adult wasn't allowed to vote as a child, either, and so has exactly the same rights as the child.

So, you accept the one of them has the right to vote, and one does not, and they are being discriminated between on the grounds of age. Still, it only lasts 18 (in most countries) years.


And you tried to make it look like a homeowner who is disturbed at 3 am would have different rights than the criminal who disturbs him or her, but the homeowner would also suffer the same consequences if he or she disturbed another homeowner at 3 am, and would therefore have exactly the same rights.

In some states, they do. There are official judgements that homeowners have no rights to defend themselves, and in some they do.

So yes, in my world, the real worl,d some people are allowed to vote at different ages to each other, if at all, and some homeowners can defend themselves and some can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 04:56 PM

CarolC you insist on making these debates personal attacks on my integrity.

No I'm not. I am disputing your arguments, but I have not brought your integrity into it at all. If you insist that your personal integrity is inextricably tied to your arguments, then you are the one who is bringing your personal integrity into the discussion.

So, you accept the one of them has the right to vote, and one does not, and they are being discriminated between on the grounds of age. Still, it only lasts 18 (in most countries) years.

No, I don't. I agree that they both have the same right to vote. The rules are exactly the same for the both of them. That is what is meant by "equal rights"... same rules for everyone. If you try to make it mean something else, you are distorting the meaning of the phrase.

In some states, they do. There are official judgements that homeowners have no rights to defend themselves, and in some they do.

But the same rules apply to everyone within each juristiction. So within each jurisdiction, everyone has the same rights. It's true that people in some jurisdictions have different rights than people in other jurisdictions, but that is not what is meant by not having "equal rights". Again, you are trying to change the meaning of the phrase "equal rights".

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 05:02 PM

I suggest you get your information from more than one source and make that source other than Palestinian propaganda.

This is a cheap tactic on your part, Dave. My sources are available for everyone to see here in the Mudcat. Most of my sources are Jewish, and many of them Jewish Israelis. For you to try to suggest otherwise is a very large falsehood, and so in this case I do tend to question your integrity.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 05:07 PM

But I take back what I said about not suggesting that you are a racist, Dave. You are a racist if you consider anything coming from Palestinians to be automatically suspect (and propaganda) for no other reason than that it comes from Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 05:09 PM

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry I ever bothered trying to reason to somene so myopic as you. I really should know better by now. Tomorrow, I shall mainly be nailing jelly to the wall, as I might actually get something done doing that....

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 05:14 PM

You are a Nazi CarolC and I have nothing more to say to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 05:23 PM

Name calling, whether it is calling someone a racist or a Nazi, is unacceptable. It gives no credibility to any of your statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 05:26 PM

No offense to anyone here. I respect the people involved on both sides of what started as a debate and has ended so acrimoniously. However, even the ending might serve to show that if some thinking people can't peacefully talk about the mid-East situation on a forum, the likelihood of it happening IN the mid-East where folks see their very survival as what's at stake just ain't too good.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 05:35 PM

No, Dave, YOU are the Nazi.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 05:36 PM

You are a racist, fascist, white supremacist, Nazi.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 05:42 PM

I am sure my Palestinian friends would agree with you CarolC

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 05:57 PM

Probably.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 06:21 PM

The rather impartial question is asked once again:

"CarolC, the Palestinian Authority and various Palestinian NGO's have been receiving substantial aid from the EU for some considerable time (to the tune of $640 million per year) - What have they done with it?

In Gaza, since Israel withdrew what have those whose responsibility it is to look after the "Palestinian" population's best interests and needs done for those people? Built roads? hospitals? schools? Initiated any major Government/Local Authority infrastructure projects that would create employment? Please tell us about them.

Likewise tell us about similar enterprises that would benefit the "Palestinian" people that have occurred on the West Bank. I do actually think you will find instances in the West Bank but few if any sponsored by the PA or by Hamas."

By the way CarolC the above quoted figure amounts to about one third of what the Palestinian Authorities have received - care to explain what they have done with it. This amount of aid has flowed their way since about 1985 - Please tell us what did Tosser Arafat, his minions and successors do with all that money? Tell you one thing CarolC the "Palestinian" people never saw a penny of it, but by God you just take a look at the bank balances of "those in power", you know CarolC those who were supposed to be looking after the long term interests of the "Palestinian" people. Hells teeth woman it was exactly because of this corruption that Hamas was borne, and what have they done? They have followed directly in the feet of their predecessors.

By the way if anybody is interested in why I keep referring to the "Palestinian" people in inverted commas - Its because the "Palestinian" people were a modern day invention of Tosser Arafat. They are an invention that seemed to grip the modern day imagination, they have had conferred upon them the status of a nation, which has never existed until Tosser Arafat started to bilk them for every penny that they were worth in terms of international sob stories. And Tosser Arafat pocketed every penny, just like his mentor who originally spread the lie among the arabic population of the area geographically known as Palestine that the Jews were slaughtering arabs. It was a complete and utter lie, CarolC will not own up to the truth of that, but that is what kicked this whole thing off - Hey CarolC a LIE TOLD BY AN ARAB, THAT WAS BELIEVED BY THE ARABS -IT WAS A LIE NONE THE LESS.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: pdq
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 08:14 PM

"Now introducing CarolC as 'Little Egypt' and her brand new dance 'The Gaza Strip'!"

"Gee Fred, sure looks like the same old dance to me."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 10:18 PM

CarolC is Martin Gibson's evil twin sister.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 11:06 PM

Geez....

I don't think I've ever called CarolC a Nazi....


I'll just sit back and watch this one.



Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 03:49 AM

Dave (the Ancient Mariner):
As Golda Meyer opined "the only time there will be peace between the Arabs and the Jews will be when the Arabs learn to love their children more than they hate us"


CarolC:
Golda Meir was a bigot (and a racist). There will be peace in Palestine when Israelis learn to love their children more than they love what belongs to the Palestinians.

Gaza was never free. It may not have had settlers and soldiers in it, but Israel was still dropping bombs on it and killing a lot of civilians in the process, and it was still controling its borders, air space, and beaches, and as a result, its economy and autonomy.

I think the quote attributed to Golda Meir is thought provoking rather than racist. It goes along with a quote from a member of an Arab death squad indicating that Jews loved life more than any other people.

That quote alone does not justify labeling Meir as a bigot and racist. I think she was neither of those things. She was the opposite of those things. Particularly, CarolC, when in the past you have found Gamal Abdel Nasser, a terrorist dictator, a fitting model for your quotes against Israel.

Possibly you are deliberately misunderstanding the quote as you apparently misunderstood my indication that you do not believe Palestinians are human beings. You clearly don't believe Israelis are human beings. You are turning all of them into symbols that you are labeling 'good' and 'bad' and using skewed interpretations of all quotes and events to justify your preconceived views, as you are choosing some pretty solid citizens (Golda Meir, Thomas Friedman) to decry and some pretty disgusting characters (Yasir Arafat, Gamal Abdel Nasser) as exemplars of truth and moral suasion.

Not that I'm calling you a Nazi. I am not. However, your methods of interpretation are precisely those used by Nazis to justify what they already believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 10:26 PM

Look at any Mudcat thread from the last five years or so that deals with the Middle East and you'll see that at some point CarolC will kill it off by calling anyone who is not 100% anti-Israel a racist, a nazi, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 02:41 AM

What the Zionists on this thread refuse to recognise is that th Palestinians have a history in Palestine that goes back to biblical times.
They have been expelled from their homeland and houses etc .They were expelled by force and the use of terror by the Hagannah and Zionist terror gangs in what the Palestinians call the Nakbha.
Until the issue of the Palestinian refugees is settled there will be no peace and no justice.
Israel has ceated facts on the ground with its illegal settlements on the West Bank and in East Jerusalem but the biggest fact is the obstacle of Palestinian resistance which seks to right the wrongs committed in the past several decades
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,orif
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 04:09 AM

What the anti-Zionists on this thread don't realize are that many of the Palestinians who were expelled by force and the use of terror by the Babylonians and Romans and Syrians and Turks have returned to their ancestral homes and the illegal squatters who have yet to understand or make peace with that fact on the ground have been given opportunity after opportunity to make peace and accomodations and have made a series of ludicrously wrong choices.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,forif
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 07:01 AM

The rest of the world is just fucking tired of paying for the killing. They either make peace and settle with Israel, or we watch them get slaughtered for another sixty years. Perhaps the third world war is not that far away after all?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 07:15 AM

CarolC,

This is bullshit. Tha Arabs has only one goal with regard to the Israelis, and that is to remove all of them from the land that they have lived on, worked on, and farmed for more than three thousand years. The Arabs will not leave them alone until they are all gone from that part of the world. Everything else they do is just clever sleight of hand to distract your attention from their real agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 09:17 AM

What the Zionists on this thread refuse to recognise is that th Palestinians have a history in Palestine that goes back to biblical times.

Another lie from ifor.

The modern-day Palestinians are Arabs. The Arabs first arrived in what is now Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, as conquerors in the 7th century BCE, long after biblical times.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 09:54 AM

Most people would regard the 7th century BCE as Biblical times.

The term would, unless otherwise stated, be taken to cover the times of both the Old and New Testaments, so could reasonably be taken to cover from the earliest civilisations in the Middle East, dated to before 3000 BCE, through the time of Abraham 2000-1650 BCE, and Moses 1200-1500 BCE to the end of the New Testment, in the first century ACE.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 10:01 AM

OOOPS, sorry.

I meant to say the Arabs first arrived in the 7th Century CE (AD). This would have been 600-700 years after the time documented in the New Testament.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:44 PM

Yes, the Palestinians have a history of settlement in Palestine that goes back a very long time.They were carelessly and callously displaced from their homeland in 1948 through the use of mass terror and military might by the Zionist gangs and the newly formed and well armed Israeli military.
The Palestinians have been bombed,brutalised ,slaughtered and humiliated ever since by the one of the most powerful military machine in the world which uses modern jet attack planes ,apache helicopters, heavy tanks,artillery and snipers to slaughter Palestinians...civilians and fighters alike.
Israel has become an ugly,militarised and thuggish regime full of discriminatory laws.It is intent on expelling the Palestinians from their homeland by force and by coerction. It is reminiscent of the way the Aboriginal peoples of Australia and America were expelled from their homelands.
Although Zionism has been criticised the role of the USA has also been a callous one in the long story of the suffering of the Palestinian people.Israel has been armed to the hilt with all kinds of killing machines .Its economy has been bankrolled by the USA .The USA has backed Israel at the UN and at all diplomatic gatherings .And of course the Palestinians have been marginalised and demonised.
However there is a growing worldwide grassroots recognition that the Palestinians have been an oppresssed people ,long bullied and beaten and denied basic civic,human and humanitarian rights.
A free Palestine will come but its people need solidarity!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,forif
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:28 PM

You could substitute Israel for Palestine in your last post ifor. They lost a fight with Israel when they were much more powerfull.
Israel is a UN recognised country and as such will continue to exist despite all the bullshit thrown at it. They have become powerfull for the very reason a few Arabs now called Palestinians will never become so, they worked at it.