After recording a CD then what?

Subject: After recording a CD then what?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 02:15 PM

Next week I'll be doing a recording for a CD. My first along with old friend & singing partner Neil Downey. Thanks to Charlie Nobel & Judy B's free offer, we can to do this(we couldn't raise the money to buy a CD never mind record one). My question is once we have a master from there I'd like to get ideas on where do people go to buy the CD cases, where does one find the jacket that need to printed & what sort of material is used for tha & where would one find it. What about wrapping, does it get shrink wrapped & who does that & how would one go about getting copies made of the master. And is there anything else that I'd need to do & know that I'm not aware of. You guys are the ones that can best advise me. Thanks for all who'll be helping me in advance.

Barry

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 02:48 PM

There are outfits that will make copies of your cd and do all the rest for you, for the right price (maybe $2-$4 a copy, with everything). I've used MMSdirect out of Toronto, and have been quite happy with them. Probably a good idea to look first at an outfit close to home, if you decide to go that route.

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: jeffp
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 04:35 PM

Here's one place: http://www.go-qca.com/cd_htm/CDProducts.html


This: http://www.recordlabelresource.com/list.php?catid=5
has a list of CD replicators.

Jeff

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 06:59 PM

Has it been Mastered?

I know you've said you have a master copy, but that's not quite the same thing as "having it mastered."

I mention this because it's easy to find someone to make a million copies, that's what yellow pages is for. With digitally recorded and straight to CD and what have you, the only real difference is price.

However, you may have noticed that your CD doesn't sound as loud as commercial ones on your home stereo. And maybe (big maybe) not as polished as some. This is what mastering does.

The difference is that duplicating CDs is easy - Mastering is definetely not. It's probably the blackest, least understood art in the whole of the recording chain, and too many people misjudge it, or at least they do from in front of my stereo - or just as likely, in my car.

If you can find someone who really knows their stuff then they are worth the money, even better if you can find someone who really knows their stuff and loves what you do!

Good luck,

QTWF

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 07:16 PM

Unfortunately, in the tradition of 'The Underpants Gnomes' from South Park, many who desire to put a finished product in front of a clientèle concentrate only on the start and finish of the process.

Step 1: Collect underpants
Step 3: Take over the world!

What's Step 2?

We haven't worked that out yet!

Barry, you are about to embark on an interesting and enlightening complicated journey, and I have no personal experience in dancing all the steps (in spite of being familiar with some of the theoretical), but there are many here who have.

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: GUEST,Mr Realism
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 08:20 PM

Sounds to me - questions like where to get the cases from - that you're thinking of a very short run of home-burned CDRs for family and friends, maybe a few as demos to get dates. Fine, that's what available technology is for. Go for it.

If you're thinking bigger time (i.e. press 1000+) and you really know so little, maybe you should stop and ask yourself why you're doing this, and does the world need it? The world already has too many CDs. Why would it need yours?

"Because I want to make one", or "it'll feel geat to have a CD out" is not the answer. Vanity publishing is the downside of available technology. Ask any folk radio DJ or magazine reviews editor.

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 08:46 PM

Ignore Mr Realism Barry,

Life is an educational journey...

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: dwditty
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 08:54 PM

Barry,

I used a company called Super Dups in Salem NH. I suggest you ride over to speak with them, if for no orther reason than to understand the details. I know a good guy in Seabrook, too, if you need any technical work on the cd (mastering, etc).

dw

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 09:29 PM

"Because I want to make one" is the best reason there is. Once upon a time no one had heard of John Lennon or Bob Dylan or any other star in the firmament. But they wanted to make recordings and were unknowns. How much poorer the music world would be if they had allowed themselves to be discouraged by the Mr Cynicals (that's not realism) that seem to take a delight in tearing hopes down, while remaining quite unburdened with any actual knowledge of WHAT it is they're passing judgment on.

Go for it, Barry. Along with CD pressings and artwork and all the other practical stuff there is to know about, develop that extra rhino-hide skin you'll need as an artist in a world full of people like him. If someone's comment has no constructive use, treat it like you would any other piece of garbage. Take it outside and dump it.

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 10:44 PM

Thank you all for your comments & support & non-support. As for the reasons I'd like to record.

I do want to record a CD & have for some time now, but couldn't afford to
Being on a death bed twice I'd like to leave some of what I love for my kids before I'm gone for good
A number of people have recorded stuff they've recieved through me & I thought it was time that I put out some of that stuff myself
I've collected some songs that I've never seen or heard elsewhere & it would be right if I left them behind
Some folks have been asking me to do this for years & I value their opinions
I would like to send a bunch of demos to festivals here & abroad so that I might get some gigs, not so much for money as it is now the on;y way I'd be able to afford festivals far off.
And lastly I do think that I've something to offer.

Jeff, thanks for those links I did earmark those sites & am trying to educate myself as to what I'll be needing to do
Charlie Nobel & Judy B are doing what ever's involved to get me a master. Now I'm not sure what that mastering means (thanks Guest) but I'm sure they'll let me know, so I'll take it from there
I'm planning on around 500 copies between Neil & myself. I'm not sure if that's what I should do. I don't perform much where I could sell them but then I also don't know if 'll get many gigs from whaat I send out.
Bonnie, thanks, I do have extra rhino-hide skin so I'm ok about that, I'm just not rude cause I have one.

dwditty, you must've known I'm about 15 minutes north of Salem. I will take your advice & drop by there even if only to find out more of what I have to do

Thanks all & please continue with this no matter how slight. I'm looking to get a real education from all of you/

Thanks again
Barry

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: Stewart
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 11:39 PM

Several years ago I had a similar idea, although in my case it was to preserve the songs and stories of a 80 year-old traditional Irish singer friend who could never have imagined having his own CD. I recorded him over several months in my home using good quality equipment. I jokingly told him that I was doing this first project to find out what went wrong to do better the next time - but it really turned out well the first time. After processing the recording on my computer to produce a master CD, I later realized that was the easy part.

Next I sent some photos and ideas to my daughter who has some artistic / graphic/ computer skills to design the cover and insert. She had to learn how to put her results into computer formats suitable for modern printing (a learning process for her, but I paid her for her efforts). I then consulted with a local (local is best) CD maker about pressing the CDs and printing and packaging (that's the $2-$4 per CD package price, quite competitive pricing). I then made the big leap of faith and contracted for a 500 CD run. The total cost including the graphic design amounted to slightly less than $2,000. Fortunately, I was financially able to front those costs.

The next phase, which you should be thinking about before the project goes to the CD maker, is promotion. I've done a little concert promotion before so had some ideas of what was involved - setting up some web pages for the CD, email lists, local stores to market through, other web sites to spread the word, people and publications to send the CD to for review, etc., etc. And most important, a gala CD release concert (or several concerts). The CD release concerts and various festivals proved to be the biggest selling venues. After a bit over a year we broke even.

About a year and a half ago I started my second CD project, to record songs of the Pacific Northwest by local musicians. This proceeded even better and in less than a year after release we have broken even with a few hundred $ profit. But these projects are not for making money, but rather a labor of love for the musicians and the music. Any profit from these projects will go into a fund for the next CD project (I already have some ideas).

It's been an interesting journey, I've learned a lot and it's been quite satisfying and also fun. But it also demanded that leap of faith, which I'm glad I did.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 12:10 AM

Good advice from Stewart, Barry. If you don't foresee a lot of gigs or are not into big-time promotion, a run of 500 copies is probably plenty. If you have a friend who's a graphic designer, they can take a lot of headache out of getting the cover together. You'll have to decide whether you want a ten-page booklet with your cd or a simple card. Then there's the design that goes onto the cd itself - what is the design, how many colours, etc. All these things affect price.

Something else - if you have recorded copyrighted songs, the legalities must be taken care of before any company will duplicate your cd.

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: Stewart
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 12:21 AM

Ah yes, attributions and copyrights. That can be a pain, but it's very important. The graphic design was probably the biggest part of this project, but I learned a lot, and on the second CD was able to do all of that myself (with a little free consultation from my local CD maker). I think the cover design is most important, as is a shrink-wrapped product. People will be attracted to an interesting cover and a professional-looking package. The opposite is true for an amateur-looking product that looks home-made. So you should put a lot of time and effort into that.

S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 02:32 AM

Good luck Barry - your reasons are precisely the same as mine were when I recorded my CD, and as reasons go they're as good as any.

There's a lot of satisfaction in preserving some of what you do for posterity, believe me, and it matters not one whit whether it sells in large numbers or not - leave the humbers game to those shallow people in the 'pop' industry - the important question is "Does it make you happy?". In my case the answer is a resounding "Yes, yes, yes!!", and I hope it will be the same for you.

Re: mastering - Guest QTWF is absolutely correct, proper mastering makes a huge difference to the finished product. It's the difference between a professional-sounding CD and one that sounds 'home-made' (and there seem to be tons of those about!). I was gobsmacked at the difference in sound between the 'final mix' version (the fourth attempt BTW!) and the eventual 'final mix and mastered' version - the whole thing was louder, smoother, 'rounder' (if you know what I mean!), the levels were all the same and the correct gaps inserted between tracks. Don't spoil the ship for a ha'porth of tar - find a good studio to master it for you.

Here in the UK, duplication, printing and packaging are easily sorted - plenty of studios on the web, although it's a good idea if you can get recommendations from others who have actually used some of these people.

Best of luck with your project Barry - and ENJOY!!
S:0)

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: Suffet
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 07:22 AM

Barry,

Let me address your original inquiry. When I produced my own CD last year I asked the same question. The advice I received from a lot of people whom I trust -- including David Kleiman, Joy Bennett, Alison Kelley, and Anne Price -- was unanimous: use Oasis CD Manufacturing. They are a little pricey, but still well within the ballpark. However, they are extremely user friendly, and if necessary they will hold your hand every step of the way as they walk you through the process. They can even find you a graphic artist who is thoroughly familiar with their specs, and who will design your CD face, insert, and tray card, either from scartch or from a design concept you give them. And from all I have heard, Oasis gives you the same level of service whether you are ordering 300 CDs or 50,000.

Oasis is located in Sperryville, Virginia. At least that's where their office is. I believe their plant is somewhere in the Midwest. Here's their website: http://www.oasiscd.com/

Best of luck regardless of whom you use to manufacture your CDs. Go for it!

--- Steve

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: jeffp
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 08:03 AM

You're welcome, Barry. I should have remembered Oasis. They're very popular around these parts (Balto-Wash). When you are ready to release it, I'll buy a copy.

Jeff

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: Pistachio
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 08:38 AM

Good Luck
What theme do your songs cover, are they self written and borrowed?

Can I buy one when they're done please?

I'm still being chased to get on with using a gift of a CD recording session. Time - a four letter word, but do it for the pleasure it will bring.
It will be a record of YOU and will be enjoyed by many friends you don't yet know!
My pal and I have recorded a CD of mainly her true songs of fishermens lives, her husband was a Hull trawlerman.
Linda designed her own art work and we had a simple insert and 'stick on' cd labels. It worked and we've broken even. Result!

Have fun.
Hazel.

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 08:41 AM

Barry-

What Stewart is sayings seems closest to what you need to hear, and I'll be glad to lend you an example of one of his CD's. JudyB and I should be able to come up with a high quality master given our experience working with my two personal recordings and Roll & Go's most recent recording. We can also work up the CD graphics as well; of course we need a concept to work with...do you have a can of spinach?

As for production of 500 CD's, that's where you want to contract with Oasis or some other company. We can burn limited runs for review purposes, and they can look really sharp, but it's a lot of hand work. When you're satisfied with the result, it's time to go to the professionals.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: Willie-O
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 12:01 PM

In case there's any more doubters reading this, Barry is a singer of great passion and authenticity, and NOBODY else sings like him. I only met him twice (?) several years ago but can remember his voice unlike 99.9% of the hundreds of performers I've heard since then. This definitely is one more recording the world DOES need.

And yup, mastering is very important, as is ending up with a nice looking package. You might look into the cardboard-sleeve type cases, they are more durable for everyday wear and tear than that abomination the "jewel case" which inevitably disintegrates into sharp shards of plastic.

W-O

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 12:45 PM

Hi Barry, congratulations on your CD project. I have completed 4 CD's of my own songs and each one has done quite well. My first project was recorded, mastered, and duplicated locally here in Anchorage. It was expensive and the finished product was average in overall sound and appearance.

For my next 3 CD's I used Discmakers and what I found is that they are very good at doing all that is needed with excellent quality and within my budget. They are easy to deal with, quick with their production and the quality is hard to beat. If you order at least 1000, they even throw in the graphic design for free. Over the years I have been very satisfied with the service I get from them.

Best of luck Barry with your CD. I hope I can get myself a copy of it when you are finished. I remember how great your voice is from the times we sang together at the Getaway and look forward to hearing your finished product.

Mike

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 05:23 PM

Thanks twice again for all of you.

I don't think I have copywrite concerns (or do I)? There'll be 3 contempory songs on the CD, 1 copewritted by me & 2 copywritted by Neil, the rest are all traditional.

Now I don't know about the mastering. I know that Charlie's CD's sound professional but I don't know if they (Charlie & Judy) did their own mastering or not. But they'll let me know.

I'm thinking of having my daughter take some pictures of Neil & me & using those for a front & back cover. I do want too include, on the inside, something brief about the songs, the sources & anyone that had something to do with either of us getting the songs.

I'll talk to a very close friend whose an artist, a graphic artistic & a web site designer (besides a musician, singer & a sometimes songwriter). From what everyone here is saying here, he'd be myone of my most valuable resources. If he does a fine job maybe in return I could recommend him here so others here could see his work & maybe use him?
And thanks to Stewart, Strollin' Johnny, thurg & others, this has been so very helpful so far, please keep them coming.

Thanks again, to you all, and of course I'll be looking to sell them.
Barry

What I'm planning on recording is a CD of sea music. Shanties, ditties, ballads. Here's the potential list that'll probably need to be shaved a bit.

Roller Bowler          Yangtze River Shanty          London Julie
Schooner Industry      Good-Bye My Lover Good-Bye    Priests & Nuns
Good-Bye My Riley-O    Hard Times Inn Ol Virginia    Good Ol Brig
Saltpeter Shanty       Ya Cannot Tie A Bowline       Feeny Brown Albertina             Bound To Australia            Ranzo Rae
One More Day          Pull Away Me Boys             Ida Lewis
Fine Time O Day       Hell Of A Wedding             Main Royal Yard
Heavy Cruiser          Georgie Me Neck A Broke       Coal Black Rosie
St. Peter             Firing The Mauritania

Some of these I still need to ask the favor of a few people, out of respect more that permission though. Charlie's already given me his blessing for "Yangtze River Shanty", thank you Charlie. I'd aslo like the blessing from Roger D Abrahams whom I met through Abby Sale. Not that I got some of the West Indian Shanties from him or his sources directly but I know that they originated from his work & his collections. I do have a copy of his field recording (again thanks to Abby Sale) but what I'm recording we both had from different sources.

Thanks Alaska Mike & Willie-O for your kind words & contributions.
Thanks Steve for the Oasis link. I do know & trust, as you do, of David Kleiman, Joy Bennett, Alison Kelley.
And thanks Pistachio, I'd love to sell you one & anyone else who'd care to buy one
And thanks again to Stewart, Strollin' Johnny, thrug & others, you've all been so helpful so far, keep 'em coming.

Thanks
Barry

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: Al
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 02:28 AM

I also used MMS direct in Toronto Canada. Great service, best prices.

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: Anglo
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 03:23 AM

Oasis charges a bit more than some of the others - that said, they do very fine work. One of their extra services is to include your cut on a compilation CD sent out to radio stations. Great for singer-songwriters but I don''t think it matters a damn for singers of traditional music. You're going to sell by contact, not by radio promotion.

I use US Optical in Sanford ME. They have an associated printer which will make the inserts from camera-ready artwork, they press the CDs, put them in jewel boxes (which I prefer to some of the modern fold-out packaging, uniform, easier to store on my shelves, etc.), shrink wrap if you want them. They do have a minimum pressing of 1000 copies. Oasis may do a pressing as small as 500 (they used to, I think, though they may not do such a small runb anymore), but the total cost is not going to be that much lower than for a pressing of 1000. All prices have gone up with the increase in oil prices.

Again, with a cappella trad music, you do want it mastered, but I don't think you're going to gain a lot by spending top dollar on, say, one of the Nashville mastering houses. There are people around who know how to do that sort of thing and I don't think they're hard to find. You need somebody who understands what you're trying to do, and it's got nothing to do with creating the "right" sound for good airplay.

There are small US companies who do get their fabrication done in Canada, (e.g. Folk-Legacy, I believe) but I have no experience with that.

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: lamarca
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 04:32 PM

I, too, was going to suggest Oasis - they'll do a run of as few as 300 with a 4-panel "booklet" for about $1200 - see their price list and services here:

http://oasiscd.com/music/FF_price_list.asp

I'm glad you're doing this, Barry! You'll get rid of a run of 300 CDs just from your friends - and that doesn't count folks who'll buy them at NEFFA or Mystic after hearing you sing!

One comment about graphic design for the CD booklet - there are WAY too many CDs out with unreadable liner notes, because an "artistic" graphic designer has decided to use reversed-out type over a 70% transparent illustration in the latest designer colors of mauve on a teal background - forgetting that the primary function of the liner notes is to convey information, not show off artistic graphic text design.

Make the front cover of the CD eye-catching and have the illustration give a potential buyer unfamiliar with your work a clue about what kind of music this (easy with sea songs and other work songs), but make the internal liner notes and credits easy to read (not that that's easily done, given that if you want to write a good song description, it'll get shrunk to about the size of the type in the 2-volume OED...)

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: Anglo
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 05:03 PM

I think that Oasis price list illustrates my point. With 4-panel "booklet," pressing 300 costs $1185, pressing 1000 costs $1365, less than $200 more. It's not worth pressing less than a thousand. Their prices are more competitive than I remembered, and they are very nice to work with, especially useful when it's something you're not used to doing and a process you don't know much about.

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 06:44 PM

They have to pro-rata the set-up costs over a smaller number.

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: hesperis
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 07:00 PM

Oasis also has promotional efforts included in the cost, that are well worth it. I've been researching internet marketing for some time in preparation for my flute album.

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 07:45 PM

Anglo-

Good point on doing a run of a 1000 if one is working with Oasis. Roll & Go just did such a run of new CD with them and we're delighted that they did their part of the job for $1438. They did have to tweak our graphics to make it all work.

However, for my personal CD's I prefer to run them off 20 at a time from home until they've really stabilized; I'm still tinkering with my 1st two CD's. Then I'll probably farm it out for running a 1000. We never seem to have enough coasters around here anyway!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: GUEST,emily s
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 07:48 PM

Barry,
Good for you for making your recording. We recently put out a CD and I must say, one learns from the first time...

We went with OASIS and were extremely happy with them. We ordered the 1000 copies which is probably WAY more than we need but now we don't see dollar signs on everyone CD we give away rather than sell.

Our biggest headache was the liner notes. We had done a mock-up in Publisher of EXACTLY how we wanted it. Presented it to a local graphic artist who, for some unknown reason, didn't offer to meet with us personally first. Despite what we thought were very clear instructions to duplicate in whatever fancy app Oasis needed, he redid ALL of our design. Of course, that took him the estimated hours to do and then he had to fix it. Make sure you either have a graphic artist you can communicate with/work with easily or have a very clear idea of what you want, where you want it, etc. Oasis does have their own artists and I'm sure if we'd sent them our mock-up they would have duplicated it just fine and for less money. Silly us, we figured local would be better.

Oasis also offers some connection (sorry, I don't know the details) to cdbaby.com and amazon.com. I think there is some sort of initial fee that gets waved when you go through Oasis.

I would advise you to be at the mastering session if possible. I found it interesting and educational. Also, if you have CDs of recordings you like the sound of, take them along as a reference for the masterer. The more info you can give that person about the type of sound you want, reverb, etc the better off you are. Then again, since your recording won't be some over-produced pop recording, you won't have to worry about getting the bass, drums, etc just right throughout the album. That is one thing mastering does. It can make all the tracks sound similar which is probably what you want, rather than 1 track sticking out as different.

Please let us know when it's ready for sale. I remember you and your voice from a few years ago at the Press Room and would love to hear more.

Enjoy the experience.
Emily

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: Suffet
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 09:38 PM

Barry,

Let me second what Emily has to say.

Go to the mastering sessions. And, I would add, to the mixing sessions as well. I did, and not only did I learn a lot about the process, my input was essential. There are a lot of choices to be made, and it is much better to make them together with the engineer than letting the engineer make those choices for you.

Make certain that you and the graphic artist communicate clearly with one another. In my own case, I used an artist that Oasis recommended. I supplied him with some general design concepts that my daughter developed, and he worked them up into some proposed designs which we refined together until I was satisfied. Although we never met face to face, we communicated by telephone, e-mail, postal mail, and website, where he posted the designs for me to view and download at my leisure. I was very happy with the overall experience, and we both knew that it was a partnership in which I had the final say.

It is also important to order the number of CDs you realistically believe is appropriate for your needs. I ordered only 500 rather than 1,000, and I am happy that I did. Even though the cost of pressing 1,000 was only slightly more than 500, it would have been money wasted. Also, the licensing fees I paid to the Harry Fox Agency for three songs would have been twice as much, as would have been the UPS shipping charges to get the cartons of CDs from the Oasis plant to my home. Of the 499 I received -- Oasis gave me a refund for the one short -- I still have 196 left. And that's in addition to the three that are currently sitting in CD Baby's stock, the one that's in Camsco Music's stock, and the three that I held back for my own personal use. After an initial rush of orders, sales tapered down to the point those 196 could easily last me another five to ten years. I hope not, but I'd rather have to face reording somewhere down the line than having 696 unsold CDs piled in boxes in our guest room.

One last thing to keep in mind when deciding how many CDs to order is to figure out how many freebies you are likely to distribute. In my own case, I figured I would need 50. That turned out to be low. I ended up giving one to each of the seven back-up musicians as I had planned, and I distributed another 15 to very close friends and relatives, also as planned. That left 28 to send to folk music radio DJs. So far I have sent out 42. I also exchanged eight CDs with other performers for their own CDs, and if I count them as freebies, then I gave away 72 freebies all together. My guess is that you will also wind up handing out more freebies than you originally planned. It seems to be a very common experience. Nevertheless, 500 was still the right number of CDs for my purposes. You need to rationally determine out what number is right for you, whether it's 300, 500, 1,000, or 1,500 and then go for it.

Once again, best of luck.

-- Steve

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: jeffp
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 10:17 PM

I assume reorders would lack the setup fee?

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: early
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:06 AM

Hi Iknow I am im the UK but prices here seem very competetive compared to in the \states where generallly every thing seems cheaper I received quotes from a number of firms over here from as little as £550.00 inclusive of taxes for A pressing of 500 CD's for my CD which worked out at £1.10 PER cd iNCLUDING PRINTING a 4 page booklet on body printing and tray card even though local might seem better if these prices are better then I would urge you to check out some the european replication houses
Not sure of the current exchange rater but at $1.50 to £1.00 it works out at $825.00 for 500 CD's or $1,014.28 at todays rate

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: early
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:32 AM

After recording and Mastering comes marketing and Advertising , I held a CD launch at my local folk club and will be doing further launch concerts later in the year, in addition I have generated a few web sites (myspace etc.) to advertise it's presence, and finally I decided to give a percentage to a charity for sale .A launch party is a greatr way to get the ball rolling on sales so have fun n party

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 02:30 AM

That's great news that you're recording, Barry! I've been the recipient of some of the rarer material you sing, as have many in the sea music community. To have your own recording out will be a treasure.
Richard and I use Oasis, and I add myself to those here who recommend them. We hire a graphic artist, but, as has been noted, Oasis can supply one. very good advice to get it expertly mastered. Radio stations are wont to play unmastered CDs, and you probably will get some air time on folk/trad radio shows. I've got nothing new to say here, but just wanted to congratulate you and to second the motion to look into Oasis.

best,

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: DebC
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:56 AM

Hey Barry,

First off, congratulations on the upcoming CD. I look forward to it, especially hearing a recording of Schooner Industry.

If you are interested in distributing to radio, Bob Blackman, a fine DJ with WKAR in Lansing, MI co-authored a great essay on what DJs look for in CDs.

Trying to decide how many CDs you want to have made is a very important decision. One thing you *don't* want is to have spent all that money recording, mastering and manufacturing to sell 150, give away 300 and have the rest sitting in your basement for years.

Good luck, Barry!

Deb

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:20 AM

Barry-
The important thing is to mentally prepareyourself for a flood of obscurity.

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: GLoux
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:42 AM

Barry,

I've used MMS Direct and couldn't be happier...great prices, very efficient, great quality.

-Greg

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 04:26 PM

I have a question on one of the songs we'll be recording, Schooner Industry. Jerry Bryant found this in the Industry's log book but the tune we use & the additional chorus we use was written by Neil. Is this something that he needs to copywrite (not the words)?

Thanks again for all the comments, plugs, advice & support. It's espically nice to hear from friends who've gone thru this process before & whom I truly trust. It looks like Oasis just keeps coming up over & over again. I haven't talked to my good friend who's a graphic artist & artist (thesem are what he teaches at college level). The mastering sounds like it's something that I should be able to be a part so that may have to be local, though I'm still not sure on this part.

You guys have been such a help. I had no idea that doing this would involve so much (or cost so much). Thanks to you all for making all of this some much easier & simpler. I'd been lost if I hadn't have known all this. Please don't stop, now.
Love you all
Barry

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 07:20 PM

Barry,

Great news! Save one for me!!

I highly recommend Oasis. They did my last two. Micah Solomon and all the rest there are tops. And the final product is state of the art.

Art (also state of the Art ;-)

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: MMario
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 09:10 AM

Barry - if Niel wrote the tune and chorus he already *HAS* copyright on them. whether or not he wishes to REGISTER that copyright in order to make abuse of the copyright defensible in court is his call.

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: Suffet
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 09:12 AM

Barry,

Regarding copyrights, the answer is that you should copyright any work that you create -- new tune, new words, new arrangement, etc. -- no matter how small. Your copyright will, of course, extend only to your own contribution, not to the preexisting music or words. This would be done on what the US Copyright Office calls Form PA. In addition, you should copyright the CD itself when released. That will protect the actual performances against piracy, in theory, that is. For that you will use Form SR.

PA and SR copyright registrations are two separate things, and mean two different things. The PA registration is for the musical composition regardless of who performs it, while the SR registration is for the performance (as recorded on the CD) regardless of who composed the music. The symbol for a PA registration is the letter C in a circle; the symbol for an SR registration is the letter P in a circle.

By the way, you can save some money by registering all your compositions on a single Form PA, provided the copyright claimants (presumably you and Neil) are the same. In Section 1 of the form, you give the collection a title, such as "Folk Songs of Downey & Finn," and then you list each individual song under "Previous or Alternative Titles." When the form asks in Section 2 for "Nature of Authorship," you should say: "Musical arrangements and editorial revisions of words."

On the reverse of the PA form, look for Section 6. The first part asks you to identify any preexisting work, and you should say: "Based upon the following tradional folk songs in the public domain, commonly known as [list names of songs]." The next part asks for what material you added to the work, and you should say: "Musical arrangements for voice and editorial revisions of words, including order of verses, and addition or deletion of text."

I hope this is of some help.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 10:00 AM

" "Because I want to make one" is the best reason there is. Once upon a time no one had heard of John Lennon or Bob Dylan or any other star in the firmament. But they wanted to make recordings and were unknowns. How much poorer the music world would be if they had allowed themselves to be discouraged by the Mr Cynicals (that's not realism) that seem to take a delight in tearing hopes down, while remaining quite unburdened with any actual knowledge of WHAT it is they're passing judgment on. "

Before I comment on the above, I would like to say that Barry is doing the right thing.   I've heard Barry sing (while lurking at Mystic and Old Songs) and I know his CD will be a joy to listen to. From his reputation alone, I know that people are eagerly looking forward to hearing it, and that is the "best reason there is" to record a CD.

Please do not call people "cynical" or accuse them of "tearing hopes down" when they offer advice, as the guest "Mr. Realism" made some valid points. There are people who are realistic and try to offer suggestions that may not be what people expect, but they are honestly trying to help.

As a folk DJ, I receive an average of 20 CD's a week. Many are home made affairs, often on a CD-R.   The comparision to the path that John Lennon & Paul McCartney took is not valid. They recorded their music because someone wanted to record them, and they put in their time to hone their craft. Today, anyone can record a CD at home and have it available for sale online in a few hours.   Some will be good, but those might end up being lost among the thousands of recordings that are floating around.   While CD's can be recorded on the cheap, they are often expensive propositions if one wants to do them the right way. I truly feel that an artist should spend their time and money in polishing their material before deciding that a recording is the ultimate way to go.

An good artist will instintively know when they are ready to record, but I feel that modern technologies and pressures have made it seem that anyone who picks up a guitar should make a CD as the next logical step.   It is not that easy.

What Barry is doing is the right thing. He has gathered songs for years and earned a fine reputation as a quality singer. This CD is long overdue! He is approaching it the right way, asking quesions about printing, mastering, etc.

I also recommend Oasis - they have been good friends to the folk community.   I also recommend Airstream Mastering - it is an added expense but they are actually reasonable, and they do good work.   

Bob Blackman's post that Deb mentioned is wonderful. Keep in mind that every Folk DJ has unique situations and it is always best to contact them before sending.   Some shows will not touch trad material, others play it exclusively. You've gone through a lot of time and expense to have your CD end up in a trash bin. I would be glad to offer any help I can to spread the word among the folk DJ community when you are ready.

I look forward to your CD, good luck!

Ron

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:10 AM

Just a short update on yesterday's recording session with Barry Finn and Neil Downey. Wow, what a time! Everything seemed to be working well. Barry and Neil managed to find our house here in Richmond, Maine, after the Friday music session at the Press Room in Portsmouth, NH, and well before midnight. We tucked them in and after a leisurely breakfast the next morning we laid down 24 tracks, most of which should survive the editing as "keepers." JudyB did a superb job of recording, and keeping everyone focused on what needed to be done next. She is a master at herding cats, but even her talents were challenged by the impetuous pair of Barry and Neil. We will issue a separate CD of outake digressions!

We did take a lunch break at the Railway Cafe, where since we were doing some "quiet" singing we attracted the attention of a traditional style Maine songwriter who just happened to be sitting at the next table. He's an older gentleman who I'd only heard about from his public radio programs and he soon came over and we had a great time sharing snippets of songs and swapping stories. We also took a supper break in the neighboring town of Wiscasset, refueling ourselves with lobster calzones and Barry's cheeseburger. So although we were all working intensely, we did take time to regenerate batteries.

Neil even took the time to work me in for harmony backups. He is certainly one of the best people I've run across for figuring out what harmonies work, and how to demonstrate that to other singers without terrifying them. We really had a lot of fun working out the songs, and at least two thirds of them were unfamiliar to me.

I expect that it will be some time before more than the rough draft of the tracks is available for review by Barry and Neil; they should have the rough draft by next weekend. But now this project is, indeed, outward bound!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 04:15 PM

I thought it might be worthwhile to note that Chris Wood will be doing a workshop on this topic at Loughborough Folk Festival (Oct 13 - 15). He'll be talking about producing CDs and getting them out there. Something the musicians on this lovely forum might be interested in...

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: open mike
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 04:29 PM

sorry if this has already been mentioned..
(glad to see the Oasis was recommnended)
there are packaging alternatives that do not involve plastic
cases, and shrink wrap,,,,some nice paper/cardboard c.d.'s
have come my way..and i shudder to think of the piles of
plastic left behind when c.d.'s get unwrapped...

good luck and if yo uwant to reach a lot of folk d.j.'s
you can do so by sending a message to the folkdj list
(but that might lead to you sending out way more copies
than you have in mind....)

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 10:31 PM

I can't say much because i just got in from a wake for my neices husband & need to go to the funeral tommorrow so I'll post more after I get back & settled. As Charlie says it was a great feat & we were treated to a wonderful stay but more on that later.
Thanks so much to Judy B & Charlie & to all of you others
Barry

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: bbc
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:29 PM

Hi, Barry. It's a pleasure to have found this thread. I think your reasons for producing a cd are perfectly valid, although there's no reason you need to justify what you do to anyone. I remember your voice & I'd love to have a recording of your music. Go to it!

best always,

Barbara

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 04:39 AM

You're right, lamarca. Legibility is much to be admired in CD covers.

I'm getting old and bloody minded - if I can't read 'em, I don't buy 'em.

One thing that seems to stand out from the comments by people who have made CDs - I bet the ones who "break even" are only looking at cash out goinimgs on the CD - they haven't costed their own time, and they haven't even though about travel costs etc.

Despite all that, I wish you the best of luck, Barry. The best reason for doing something like this is that you want to, and if it's going to be good, that's a bonus.

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 02:06 PM

Well the recording is done except for any little changes that might need to be make after we listen to what JudyB has for a mix-up. For here we might or might not do a mastering though it sounds like from the bulk of the advice here that maybe I should. Once I've got it set to go for replication & packaging I'll probably do it through Oasis because there's been so many here that have had very positive things to say about them. We did knock off 2 of the songs from the list & will probably have to trim down some more due to time limits of the CD itself but that'll have to happen after we get to hear all the cuts. Now I'll have to concentrate on the graphics & refining contents of the jackets (do they still call the inserts jackets?). What do people mostly do now about the words to the listed songs? I've seen that some still print them in the jacket which is best in my opinion but adds greatly to the cost because of the increase in the jacket panels. I see that some prefer to post them on their web sites.
Anyway, about the recording session. It was quite the education. JudyB did really shine on honing in on how we wanted to sound & where we were & weren't, with all the playing back of the cuts & retakes it was a very long but a very satisfying day & Neil & I were amazed that we go it completed in one sitting (though I think Judy gets the credit for that). I had only been in a professional studio once before (as a back-up chorus on Richard Adrianowicz's ("Time Ashore Is Over"), I'd have to say that Judy is very much the professional at recording. As for being hosts well our own apartment for the nite before & after, with breakfast, ya can't get better. Like Charlie mentioned above we at lunch we ran into a fellow, probably in his 70's that sat with us & ended up singing us a few of some songs he had written, had to be some of the best written material I've ever heard. Hopefully Charlie will follow up with him as he says to have at least collected over 100 folk songs from Maine including many about the different towns & he says he's written quite a few.
I don't know how I can ever thank Judy & Charlie enough; this has so far been an immense educational process, a joyful pleasure & a treat.
Thanks to all who've continued to lend me their support with so much valuable advice here & please jump in with any further comments.
Thanks
Barry

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 03:58 PM

"What do people mostly do now about the words to the listed songs? I've seen that some still print them in the jacket which is best in my opinion but adds greatly to the cost because of the increase in the jacket panels. I see that some prefer to post them on their web sites. "

Speaking from a DJ point of view, we like to see the lyrics - especially now that FCC fines could take our homes away if we play something that is considered "obscene".   While I doubt that the songs you have chose fall into that catagory, and DJ's should pre-listen anyway, the DJ does like to see the lyrics at their fingertips and can't be bothered to go to ta website.

Speaking as a consumer, I can go either way. I have noticed that often "traditional" do not reproduce lyrics in their booklets but usually write a description of the song and the reason the artist chose it.   I love to read lyrics so that would be my "vote", but I can certainly live without them.

Ron

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 06:22 PM

I've been putting notes to individual songs in the booklet insert, and then placing the lyrics and more notes on my website. I really hate to try to read tiny fonts and while I appeciate performers including the lyrics with the CD, I usually can't read them unless I enlarge them on a photocopier.

Of course, Barry's got quite a job re-proofing his lyrics so they tally with what he sings.

I'm not sure if Judy will be able to complete the first draft editing by this Saturday. There's more than 20 songs and each one takes about an hour to edit when everything is working well.

But it certainly was a great experience for us as well, and really wonderful to meet and work with Neil.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: JudyB
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 10:16 AM

A question for Ron (or others in radio) -

Most projects I'm involved with have gone the "lyrics on the web" route, partly because of the expense of printing the larger insert. As a consumer, I generally prefer that as my aging eyes have a hard time reading the booklets, especially when "artistic" fonts and colors are chosen.

But I do see why printed lyrics would be useful for a radio station. Do you think it would work if one included printed lyrics attached to the CD with a rubber band (so to speak)? Would they need to be CD-size so they could be tucked inside once the shrink-wrap was removed? Or should we really un-shrink-wrap the CD, put the insert inside our standard insert, and take it to a shrink-wrap place to put it back together again? (No one will ever know....)

I don't know how much of an issue it is - there aren't that many stations that play our type of music, so I doubt if Charley sends that many CDs to radio stations. But if he does, we would like to do whatever would make them most likely to be given a listen.

Thanks,
JudyB

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: DebC
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 10:44 AM

I am a big believer in lyrics in the CD insert, but that is only my opinion. It's a lot of work and certainly an extra expense, but for me it was worth it. Of course, one thing that I discovered in doing this: you have to transcribe exactly what you are singing on the recording. I can't tell you how many times, the written lyrics had one thing and I sang something different. :-)

As a listener, I enjoy having lyrics handy, especially if there are some words that aren't clear enough in the recording. Sometimes, just reading the lyrics without hearing the song can bring the song into a whole different light.

I haven't done lyrics on the web...but from what I understand most DJs (and for that matter, many organisers and venue programmers as well) don't have the time to download stuff from websites.

Judy wrote:
"Do you think it would work if one included printed lyrics attached to the CD with a rubber band (so to speak)? Would they need to be CD-size so they could be tucked inside once the shrink-wrap was removed? Or should we really un-shrink-wrap the CD, put the insert inside our standard insert, and take it to a shrink-wrap place to put it back together again? (No one will ever know....)"

You want your CD to look as good as possible. I always remove the shrinkwrap before I send a CD to a DJ. I also insert a program sheet for DJs into the CD that has track info (times, what kind of song) and a description of the CD.

I'd be happy to give you an example of this, Judy. Send me an email and I'll forward them to you. Contact is at www.DebraCowan.com

Debra

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 11:36 AM

Hi Judy,

Attaching any document that won't fit into the CD case is not a good idea. Most radio folk simply glance at the material and toss it away. (I do not recommend slick press kits with photos and reams of news clippings. You end up making compost!)

Deb mentioned the program sheet that fits into the CD, and that is an excellent suggestion!   Borealis Records started doing this a few years ago and it has caught on as a standard practice by others. One side of the card, which is a one-sheet that has the same dimensions as the CD booklet, usually has artist info on one side (bullet point facts about the individiual, including website and contact info) and track information on the other (listing cut #, track length, title and a one sentence description of the song - topic and tempo).

I am not sure why so many folk DJ's have trouble with shrinkwrap, but it is true. It can be a hassle to remove the wrap, especially when you are dealing with a stack of CD's.   I always carry one of those small CD wrap removers and it works fine. I guess my colleagues don't wish to be bothered! (We can be a finicky bunch!!!)

One of my pet peeves is cardboard CD sleeves.   People think they are better for the environment, and less prone to breakage, but they do have problems. They are not as durable and while they won't crack like a jewel case, the spines do wear out. The hub tends to break as well and the CD slips out.   Personally, I remove all the CD's that I receive and slip them into a product called jewel sleeves - www.jewelsleeve.com. This enables me to story 4 CD's in the place of one and they make it easy to store CD's alphabetically.

I always recommend sending an e-mail to the radio host before sending out a CD. I also recommend checking the Folk DJ listserv to see if the show fits your music.

One last note. You may have heard the business cliche "elevator speech". That is a request for giving a brief description of your project in the time it would take to ride in an elevator. If you cover your bases, you will get the information out so the listener will understand your project.   "Selling" your CD to a radio host requires the same thought process. Your e-mail,letter, and CD package have to capture their attention as quickly as possible. Lengthy letters require too much reading on the part of someone whose time may be limited. You want to think "bullet points" and quick descriptions that will get your message across.

Ron

Subject: RE: After recording a CD then what?
From: JudyB
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 07:24 PM

Thanks, Debra & Ron - I would have thought sending one without shrinkwrap would make the recipient think it wasn't a "real" (professionally produced) product - though since we've discovered the shrink-wrap store we can make our home-produced CDs just as hard to get into as the professional ones!

I'll make sure Charley checks in here - he's the one who does the publicity and such. Thanks again to everyone for the great advice and ideas!

JudyB