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The ' fada ' in Irish vowels

Andrew 22 Feb 99 - 07:40 PM
Alice 22 Feb 99 - 07:56 PM
Joe Offer 22 Feb 99 - 08:13 PM
Joe Offer 22 Feb 99 - 08:20 PM
Maelgwyn (inactive) 22 Feb 99 - 09:07 PM
Joe Offer 22 Feb 99 - 09:18 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 22 Feb 99 - 10:29 PM
Joe Offer 22 Feb 99 - 11:27 PM
dick greenhaus 22 Feb 99 - 11:27 PM
MudGuard 24 Feb 99 - 02:32 AM
Philippa 25 Feb 99 - 09:26 AM
Philippa 25 Feb 99 - 09:31 AM
Philippa 25 Feb 99 - 09:40 AM
Philippa 25 Feb 99 - 09:46 AM
Alice 25 Feb 99 - 11:09 AM
Joe Offer 25 Feb 99 - 01:35 PM
Philippa 25 Feb 99 - 04:44 PM
Dyslexia 25 Feb 99 - 04:52 PM
Big Mick 25 Feb 99 - 09:33 PM
MudGuard 26 Feb 99 - 03:41 AM
Philippa 26 Feb 99 - 08:35 AM
Gear¢id 26 Feb 99 - 08:51 AM
Philippa 26 Feb 99 - 10:29 AM
Fada Amuigh 26 Feb 99 - 10:56 AM
j077 26 Feb 99 - 01:39 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 27 Feb 99 - 12:00 AM
GUEST,Philippa 31 Aug 00 - 06:48 PM
Áine 31 Aug 00 - 08:22 PM
Grab 01 Sep 00 - 08:04 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 01 Sep 00 - 09:19 AM
jeffp 01 Sep 00 - 10:41 AM
Mrrzy 01 Sep 00 - 02:16 PM
Mrrzy 01 Sep 00 - 02:17 PM
Mrrzy 01 Sep 00 - 02:19 PM
Áine 01 Sep 00 - 10:05 PM
MudGuard 02 Sep 00 - 07:58 AM
Big Mick 02 Sep 00 - 11:49 AM
Joe Offer 02 Sep 00 - 03:59 PM
MudGuard 02 Sep 00 - 04:07 PM
Joe Offer 02 Sep 00 - 04:36 PM
GUEST,Rich(stupidbodhránplayerwhodoesn'tknowanybet 07 Sep 00 - 12:13 AM
GUEST,JTT 07 Sep 00 - 02:18 AM
Jon Freeman 07 Sep 00 - 03:17 AM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 07 Sep 00 - 06:52 AM
GUEST,Philippa 07 Sep 00 - 05:19 PM
GUEST,Philippa 01 Mar 02 - 11:24 AM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 01 Mar 02 - 11:33 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 01 Mar 02 - 11:37 PM
Big Mick 02 Mar 02 - 10:28 AM
Alice 02 Mar 02 - 10:56 AM
Big John 02 Mar 02 - 11:17 AM
Big John 02 Mar 02 - 11:26 AM
Big Mick 02 Mar 02 - 01:52 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 02 Mar 02 - 02:10 PM
Big Mick 04 Mar 02 - 09:27 AM
GUEST,Philippa 04 Mar 02 - 07:17 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 04 Mar 02 - 07:58 PM
GUEST,Philippa 05 Mar 02 - 06:42 PM
GUEST,Philippa 05 Mar 02 - 06:48 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 05 Mar 02 - 07:43 PM
Snuffy 05 Mar 02 - 07:44 PM
Kaleea 06 Mar 02 - 12:27 AM
GUEST,GERCAR 06 Mar 02 - 03:03 AM
Big Mick 07 Mar 02 - 10:40 AM
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Subject: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Andrew
Date: 22 Feb 99 - 07:40 PM

Just for the sake of it....The accent or 'fada' in Irish alters the sound of the vowel like so..   = aw, ‚ = ay, ¡ = ee, ¢= oh and £ = ue as in glue. they can be typed using the following codes: NUM LOCK ON: HOLD DOWN ALT on keypad type 0225 for  , 0237 =¡, 0250=£, 0233=‚ and ¢=0243 (release ALT after typing numbers) Hope this is of some interest and/or help P.S. note the direction of the accent and this is Connemara pronunciation, Donegal pronounciation is different eg   = ah (not aw).This is using windows os,I don't know if different systems work the same way.

Sl n, Andrew


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Alice
Date: 22 Feb 99 - 07:56 PM

on the Mac, it's Option key and e key, and you will get the accent mark when you type the letter.
Option, e, a =  


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Feb 99 - 08:13 PM

There are HTML tags for posting these characters there. the format is ampersand-poundsign-ASCII number-semicolon. the tag for á would look like this:

á

That is, if I did it correctly.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Feb 99 - 08:20 PM

Yep, I did it right. Now, if anyone would like to have corrections made to songs or messages they posted that have characters that got goofed up in the last Mudcat overhaul, I'd be willing to substitute a corrected text if you'd like to e-mail me the corrected text (with HTML tags, please, as a text attachment to the message or within the text of the message) and the URL for the thread where the corrections are to be made. I'll paste in the text if YOU make the corrections and provide the HTML tags - I'm not volunteering to do all the dirty work myself. Click on my name to send me e-mail.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Maelgwyn (inactive)
Date: 22 Feb 99 - 09:07 PM

How about capital letters?


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Feb 99 - 09:18 PM

Different codes for uppercase and lowercase letters, Maelgwyn. click here to get to a table of all the codes. Remember, though, that your character code must begin with an ampersand and the pound sign, and end with a semicolon, like this:

&#___;

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 22 Feb 99 - 10:29 PM

Actually, it is MUCH better to do it using À for the À rather than the &#xxx;equivalent. Some systems have different codes corresponding to the numeric of the other system. There is
Á = Á   á = á
É = É   é = é
Í = Í   í = í
Ó = Ó   ó = ó
Ú = Ú   ú = ú
 
In Scottish Gaelic there are the Grave accents as well to contend with -
À = À   à = à
È = È   è = è
Ì = Ì   ì = ì
Ò = Ò   ò = ò
Ù = Ù   ù = ù

Also, it's a lot easier to remember this method than what the specific numeral corresponds to which character in the extended character set of whatever we have set.


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Feb 99 - 11:27 PM

And for us afficionados of the German umlaut, it would be

Ä for Ä

...and you're supposed to be able to guess the rest.
-Joe Offer-

Hey, what's the German "s-zed"??
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Feb 99 - 11:27 PM

Hey folks: It's real nice to get the typography correct, but let's not make it impossible for folks to conduct searches. Ideally, ASCII characters are preferable.


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: MudGuard
Date: 24 Feb 99 - 02:32 AM

Glad that this time I can help you:
ß = ß

Andreas


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Philippa
Date: 25 Feb 99 - 09:26 AM

Joe, I would have to send you over a dozen lyrics with a total of 11 special letters (postings in Scottish Gaelic, Irish Gaelic, Spanish) and associated codes. And it would be less work to repaste the lyrics straight into the threads as new messages - as the accented letters on current postings are appearing correctly - than to type out all the hmtl codes. I wary of doing that, however, in case these lyrics get altered in future. The various affected songs in the archives used to look right. Is there no way Mike can filter them ensemble so that they look good again? Even if it meant damaging the newer postings - well there aren't too many non-English language postings YET since the revamping.


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Philippa
Date: 25 Feb 99 - 09:31 AM

Dick, I really don't think those of us who insist on accent marks are nit-picking. Leaving out accents can result in problems in pronunciation and understanding, ESPECIALLY for learners. In Scottish Gaelic 'b…ta'(ba\ta) means 'boat' while 'bata' means 'stick'. In Irish 'cead' sounds something like 'cad' and means permission; 'c‚ad' (ce/ad) rhymes with 'wade' and means 100; Fear = man, f‚ar = grass; 'stair' [a bout, a stretch] 'chora¡ochta' means 'a wrestling match' while 'st ir chora¡ochta' means 'a history of wrestling'.
many people WILL put the accents in when they're looking for songs and then the searches will be unsuccessful if the word has been printed without an accent. Anyway, one learns to think of the best words to include in a search, as in avoiding ...ing in English in case it's been rendered as ...in'


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Philippa
Date: 25 Feb 99 - 09:40 AM

I couldn't scroll the box to get all of my long message in. Simple solution to ease any searching difficulties: Song titles, at least, could be given twice on the DT - once with diacritical marks and once without

Andrew - first message - the number codes I use are different, and I also have a shortcut for accents but not the same as the one on ApppleMacs. More discussion can be found on an old thread about Fadas in the Help forum. Anyway, the problem is that we can make the desired letters, but sometimes they are altered on the web page. Joe, is it correct that if I type in the Ä <Ä> (for example)in this box, Ä is what will appear on the website, and that is why you need to act as intermediary ? - or is it just that it would look cleaner to replace old lyrics than to add to them?


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Philippa
Date: 25 Feb 99 - 09:46 AM

I just answered my last two questions above. The letter, not the code, appeared. But I had to type in four characters. I'd much prefer it if I can continue to use my shortcuts rather than having to use different sets of 4 characters for each of the 10 accented vovels of Irish and Scottish Gaelic.


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Alice
Date: 25 Feb 99 - 11:09 AM

(yet another reason why I love my Mac)


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Feb 99 - 01:35 PM

I don't know Gaelic at all, so I don't know how important these diacritical marks are. Umlauts are certainly important in German, but you can put an "e" after a vowel and everybody knows what it means - is there something similar you can do in Gaelic? Does Gaelic make any sense without the diacritical marks? I know it sure makes a difference in Greek and Russian.
While the fancy characters may look great here, they may cause problems in the downloadable version of the Digital Tradition database. Dick and Susan have done an admirable job of keeping the database simple, so it will work on just about any computer ever built.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Philippa
Date: 25 Feb 99 - 04:44 PM

Joe, No, there isn't any substitute for the accented letters except using slashes, which makes the writing awkward to read and also banjaxes the searches. Once upon a time dots where placed on top of letters to indicate lenition, but in modern type the dots are indicated by the letter 'h' (as in 'an Mhaighdean Mhara'), so at least we don't have to dot our b's, c's, d's, f's, etc. I can usually understand Gaelic written without accent marks - distinguishing between words like 'cead', 'permission' and 'c‚ad', 100, by the context; but it's not nearly as easy to read and I might mispronounce a word or two. Also I have seen some serious mistranslations occasioned by learners using a dictionary to translate a word which doesn't have the correct accents or has them in the wrong place and therefore becomes a different word.
I correspond in Irish with someone whose outmoded computer can't read the diacritical marks in e-mail messages. If I'm sending her a copy of something written for other readers, I don't go to the trouble of taking out the accents, but I do type in a decoder. So I type ¢ = o/ , but Julie sees = = o/ , etc. But she's quite fluent in Irish and also quite used to the strange spellings she sees on her screen.
I said I'd need 10 HMTL commands, but it's 20 if I bother accenting the few capital letters! Does George Seto's simpler method work?


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Subject: HTML
From: Dyslexia
Date: 25 Feb 99 - 04:52 PM

If I can't even write 'html' correctly (see above messages), how will I manage all the other 4 letter commands (typed once incorrectly and the error will be regenerated by copy and paste)! Philippa


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Feb 99 - 09:33 PM

Joe,

I have been following this with interest. I am not fluent, in fact I am barely competent. My grandparents were native speakers and I got a fair exposure and still study it. Phillipa is right on the mark (given that she is a native speaker, of course she would be)with regard to the diacriticals. One can use slashes (ex: ce/ad) but when you get into an extended dialogue, such as Annaroi and Phillipa have from time to time you can see the problem.

Phillipa, I tried to change my keyboard to Irish as its base language and still couldna get it to insert fada's. Can you give me any help? I would like to be able to switch it back and forth when needed.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: MudGuard
Date: 26 Feb 99 - 03:41 AM

I recommend for all Windows NT/95/98/... users to use the shareware editor textpad available at www.textpad.com.

If you open a file with a name ending with .htm (I keep a "test.htm" for the purpose of mudcat messages) you can type the accented characters as you are used to do - type the accent and then the letter - and textpad automatically converts them to their html equivalent. This works for accented characters like éáòû and so on and also for the German umlauts äöüÄÖÜß

It also offers the possibility to view the file in your browser, so you can check the result.

On the textpad web page there is also the possibility to download add-on clip libraries for many (if not all) html tags. You can, for example, simply select some of the text, then double click on the "Font - Bold"-Entry in the html tag list, and your selected text will be displayed bold.
The clip library also features a list of all the special characters to select from, which is useful for those characters it does not auto-convert, e.g. " or &
You can also create macros - I have one that adds <br> to the end of each line.

That makes it very easy to type your messages, add the formating (bold...), check whether the result looks as you want, re-edit if necessary, and when you are ready, you just select all the text, copy it and paste it into the mudcat message window.

Of course, this message was created that way!

Andreas


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Philippa
Date: 26 Feb 99 - 08:35 AM

I'm a native speaker of ENGLISH, Mick! Bh¡ m‚ thar fiche bliain d'aois s£la thoisigh m‚ Gaeilge a fhoghlaim. We had the discussion about how to make shortcuts for accents in the help forum, and no one knew. Though someone suggested a freeware programme and I don't know what it does. Look over the help messages of the past month and you'll find a fada thread.
I'm not responsible for the set-up of the Sabhal M•r Ostaig computers that I use most of the time - but I'll ask the person who is and see if I can understand his explanation - which will be in Scottish Gaelic as well as in computerese.
Andreas, that sounds good - must take a look when I have time.
Mike, Are we really going to have to resubmit all our old lyrics if we want them to look right again?


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Gear¢id
Date: 26 Feb 99 - 08:51 AM

Just thought I'd add my name in it's glory

Gear¢id O'Suilleabh in

Fada's and all


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Philippa
Date: 26 Feb 99 - 10:29 AM

Now I'm wondering what one would have to do to publish Russian/Ukranian cyrillic, Arabic, Hebrew, Urdu, Chinese etc. script on the Web. I ask out of curiosity, rather than to complicate life for Dick and Susan. Yet, if I could read any of these languages I would want to see the proper script alongside the transliteration (which is bound to be inadequate!)
Just to be pedantic, if I were searching for [it's glory]in the previous message, I would miss out, having typed [its glory]. Although 's is the norm with possessives, the rule is that only the contraction of 'it is' becomes it's to distinguish it from the possessive singular its and possessive plural its'. A rule very often observed in the breach!


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Fada Amuigh
Date: 26 Feb 99 - 10:56 AM

Here's a link to the recent diacritical discussion in the Mudcat help


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: j077
Date: 26 Feb 99 - 01:39 PM

Interesting - hey go to http://vocal.local.ie/ ask there - it's a good site for things Irish.. re the HTML why does anyone have problems with that?? Netscape v 3 is free and the emailer is really great click controll on everything. I can but do not put word art in my emails. I don't do it because this forum probably does not support such things besides a reader with 486 and Eudora would just see a bunch of gobbledeegook. I did Irish at elementary in Ireland and I absolutely hated the whole thing. We got walloped for not knowing a language which to be fair was not spoken any where within a couple hundred miles. Later on in the construction industry in England I learned lots of Irish but from native speakers from Connemeara and I loved that.


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 27 Feb 99 - 12:00 AM

For songs which have the / or \ in the Gaelic (Irish or Scottish), there are some unix programs available. Check out the resources at

Yeats archive of Gaelic-L programs

The programs I use are modified ones from Gary Ingle. I use them to convert to both the ISO or the MS-DOS accented characters and recently modified them to generate the HTML versions of the accented characters. It's really easy.


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 31 Aug 00 - 06:48 PM

The mutants returned today. Unfortunate changes are (at least as I write) visible in < a href=http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=24799&messages=16>Bádaf na Scadán
[Bádaí na Scadán //I'll try without using html: B da¡ na Scad n]and in the title of Eilean M'Áraich]

Fortunately I used html codes for the lyrics in that thread. The chart is at http://www.bbsinc.com/symbol.html


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Áine
Date: 31 Aug 00 - 08:22 PM

I've noticed the problem too, Philippa. It's been 'off and on' all day. But, I admit to being a bit confused about your html code advice. Are you saying that I shouldn't use the ampersand/letter/acute/semi-colon method anymore, and instead, use the four character symbols on the webpage you cited? Does it make a difference as to which web browser one uses as to which one recognizes which kind of html code method? Do older browsers 'see' the characters the same way, or differently from the newer browsers?

I think I'm off to send a message to Joe Offer or Pene Azul. I'm stumped on this one. It might just be a temporary episode with the Mudcat browswer.

-- Aine


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Grab
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 08:04 AM

Just a quick note from a picky Brit. # is NOT a pound sign, Joe!

The symbol # is (over here at least) known as a "hash", and means "number". Or in a musical context it could be interpreted as "sharp". £ is a pound sign, indicating the price of something. Alternatively, "lb" means pounds weight.

Sorry to be awkward, but it just grates. If someone wrote "I saw a feeled of sheeps" (without comic intent, anyway), that would irritate too.

Grab.


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 09:19 AM

For a long time - I wondered what all the fuss was about! I've been putting in fadas in various postings - and they always looked fine on any of the three or four computers I have occasion to use. Now I've switched to a laptop - and some of this thread looks very strange to me! I'll have to sort it out.

Regards

áóíúé


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: jeffp
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 10:41 AM

Grab, in the U.S., # is called the "pound sign." As in pounds avoirdupois, not pounds Sterling. Of course, here at Mudcat, we all recognize it as a sharp sign. It's usually used to represent pounds on invoices and bills of lading. I gather it's not used that way in the UK.

jeffp


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 02:16 PM

OK, here's a strange fillip - why can you do the "ae" spelled as one letter by typing æ, but not the same with oe by typing &oelig? (then we'll see if I did this right!)


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 02:17 PM

Aha, I did do it right. The first one is typed &+a+elig, I spell it with plus signs so it doesn't turn into the character. What happened to the o one? Anyone?


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 02:19 PM

THREAD CREEP ALERT when I first read this thread name, I read it as the INSANE in Irish vowels, because "fada" means "nuts/crazy/whacko" (with no violent overtones) in Midi French. Bilingualism really gets in the way of communication sometimes... but my reading is actually apt for the thread!

Also, Midi isn't midi, in this instance, it's Southern.


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Áine
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 10:05 PM

If one of the Mudcat Elves could give us a 'definitive' answer on this, that would be lovely.

Should we use the ISO Characters (ampersand/slash mark/three numbers/semicolon) method OR the 'other' HTML markup code (ampersand/letter/acute/semicolon) method?

Thanks, Áine (or 'Aine' if that didn't work)


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: MudGuard
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 07:58 AM

Hello Áine,

The numbered ISO Characters only work correctly if the correct character set is set in the header section of the page. As the forum creates pages which do not have a character set set, it is safer to use the &[Vowel of your choice*)]acute; as this can be interpreted by the browser independent of the current character set.


*) make note that the character entities are one of the view things where it matters whether you use upper or lowercase!

MudGuard


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 11:49 AM

I have found that the easiest way to use the fada in these posts (if you are using Windows) is to go to Control Panel, choose Keyboard and then go to the tab for language. You install "English (Ireland)" as one of your choices. Then when you want to type using fada's you simply go to the tray at the bottom right of your screen and click on the box labeled "En" and choose the English (Ireland) as the default. To get a letter with a fada you simply hold down the alt key while typing it. Hence á or Á. When you are done with it, just go down and click on the "En" and change it back. It is very easy. The only thing to watch for is that the Irish and American keyboards are different so the @ sign and the " sign are switched. I am sure that there are other differences but they are easily figured out.

Mick


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Subject: The Pound Sign
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 03:59 PM

I had always thought of # as the "number sign." Then The Telephone Company did away with my dial and forced me to dial digitally. Their automated voices began to tell me to "press the pound sign." The image that came into my mind was pounding on the telephone with a hammer in frustration with The Telephone Company. It did not dawn on me until just now that it wasn't a term invented by The Telephone Company.
I've used the # to indicate weight, but I just didn't think of avoirdupois weight when dialing the telephone - I thought of a hammer, and VENGEANCE!! I own stock in AT&T, but I still want to kill 'em.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: MudGuard
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 04:07 PM

BigMick,
the problem with your method is that the result (what is shown on a user's computer) is very dependent on the computer's settings (font, language...).
If you use the HTML entities, the result should be the same independent of any settings on the computer.

Joe,
I thought the pound sign was £ (hope this comes through) while # is called "number sign" or "hash sign".

MudGuard


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Subject: Using Special Characters at Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 04:36 PM

Note that there is another discussion on diacritical marks going on in the Help Forum - Click here.

Some of you aren't going to like what I have to say, but I think it should be said: There are people around here who act as if they're being discriminated against when fadas and umlauts and circumflexes and breves and tildes don't work, and some people get downright nasty about it. I don't think that's appropriate. All we can guarantee you is standard ASCII characters. We do our best to deal with the other stuff, but the reality of things is that they don't always work. At one time or another, the messages in this Forum get filtered through a hundred different software packages, and not all of them read characters the same ways. You may post a character here today and have it look right - and it may not look right tomorrow. If that happens, don't get all bent out of shape about it. Pene and I will be glad to fix it for you (especially if you send us formatted text by e-mail, so we can just paste an entire message in instead of changing individual characters), but we might tend to work faster for people who ask nicely.
If you notice that ALL of the special characters in the Forum have changed, please realize that there's probably some sort of technical work going on, and give Max a week or so to get things back to normal.

I would suggest that if there are songs you want to preserve that have characters outside the usual 26 letters of the American English alphabet, it's best to save a master copy on your own computer. If it has been posted in the Forum and gets goofed up, e-mail it to Pene or me, and we'll paste it in where it belongs. If you have it formatted, it just takes a moment for us to replace it. You can also send stuff to us by personal message, but e-mail works better.

There is no correct way to post special characters. I prefer the ampersand codes, using letters instead of numbers - I can never remember the numbers. For Ä, I type &Auml; (note that I end with a semicolon). Some people insist it's better to use the numbers - but they're too confusing to me. Occasionally, I'll just get the characters off Windows Character Map and paste them in - that usually works, but not always.
Now, if I post something all formatted up nicely with ampersand codes, and somebody tries to correct my message with an "edit" button, all that fancy formatting disappears. Most of the special characters will survive, but not all. If this happens to you, don't get perturbed. Remember that it happens to Joe Offer a lot more often than it happens to you. If you're posting something that's really important to you, save it on your own computer, so you'll have a backup copy to send us if the original gets messed up.

If you are posting lyrics that include special characters, I would suggest that you type them up in a word processor, and save them on your computer. Learn to use the "replace" function of your word processor to change special characters. If I'm posting Spanish lyrics, there are invariably a number of words with "n" with a tilde over it. When I'm typing, I use a letter combination that would never appear in normal usage - for "Niño" I type "Ninnno." When I'm done and I've saved the document, I go to edit/replace, and I search for "nnn" and replace it with "&ntilde;" - I choose "replace all," and the ampersand codes appear exactly where I want them. You can save all the codes you normally use in a text document, so you don't have to go typing them all the time.

I said something in the Help Forum and a few people didn't read it carefully and got all bent out of shape about it. Maybe I should also repeat it here, and challenge you all to read carefully:
I would say it's not a good idea to use other than standard American English characters in parts of the Mudcat that are likely to be subject to HTML changes. Thread and message titles, and user names (sorry, Aine), are chief among these. Also note that it's quite difficult for our search engines to search for other-than-standard characters.
Note that I said nothing about the use of other-than-standard characters within the BODY of personal and Forum messages. The special characters usually work fine in the body of messages - but remember that if you use them in messages, you do so at your own risk.
OK, let's see if we can boil this down to some guidelines:
  • Do NOT use HTML, ampersand codes, or other-than-standard characters in thread titles. I don't care if you consider that discriminatory - it just causes us too many problems, so don't do it.
  • If you use special characters in HTML-sensitive areas like message titles and user names, you do so at your own risk. Be aware that they may cause problems we can't control, and they make searching difficult for many people. If problems arise, don't complain. If you're trying to send a personal message to somebody who has a special character in the user name, search for the portion of the name that does not include the special character. I suppose it would be nice if our search engines could find special characters - they can (usually), but the person doing the search must enter the character exactly as it was posted.
  • As far as I know, lyrics with special characters are not regularly being included in the Digital Tradition Database, although there may be some exceptions. The basic, standard, fundamental edition of the database is an old DOS program. We use it because it's paid for, because it will run on just about any computer, and because it's rock-solid reliable and has survived twelve years of testing. It uses standard ASCII characters. This is not discrimination against any individual or ethnic group - this is the way the program works.
    The online version of the database is a conversion of the DOS database. The conversion process is semi-automatic, and differences in the format of various songs can cause unforeseen problems in the conversion. I have seen people make some really nasty comments about the online database, and it gets me mad. If you aren't satisfied with the online database, get the DOS version. There is a program called Donkeywork for those who prefer to run the database in Windows, but the Donkeywork search engine doesn't work as well as the DOS version does.
What I'm trying to say with all this is that I don't like it when people get nasty with their complaints about how things work around here. The people who do things at Mudcat are all volunteers, and they are limited by technological, time, and financial constraints. Treat them kindly, and with respect for the great job they do for you.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: GUEST,Rich(stupidbodhránplayerwhodoesn'tknowanybet
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 12:13 AM

A friend of mine was just showing me these

á = hold (Alt) button then key in 160

é = hold ALT then key in 130

í =hold Alt then key in 161

ó = hold ALt then key in 162

ú = hold Alt then key in 163

In order for these to work, number lock has to be on. It only works with the number keys on the right hand side of the keyboard, not the top numbers. I still don't know codes for Capital letters.

Rich


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 02:18 AM

I find it easier to track down lyrics in Irish if the fadas are left out.

I suppose it depends on what we're using the lyric cache for; is this supposed to be a useful way for singers to find the words of songs, or a definitive store of the words of songs? If it's the former, we don't need fadas, because the singers are going to know where they go anyway; if it's the latter, then perhaps each song should be stored in a non-fada version, with a *link* to a fada-compliant version?


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 03:17 AM

It is a hard one because technical problems can and do ocur when using special characters. I would suggest that people take note of Joe Offer's last post and follow his recommendations which are designed to make everything as workable as possible for all.

Jon


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 06:52 AM

Rich For T and = and f, I just use the characters. I don't use the other two, since I rarely have anything Greek to type, and that's usually the Omega, and not things like the Beta. Thanks for trying.


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 05:19 PM

Guest, Rich, a few messages back. The codes you give work on some computers, but the problem is they don't always show up right after you've sent them to the website. Some messages I sent using those codes were looking all garbled the last week or two, though I think they're okay today (technical changes at the Cat). I usually use ampersand codes in lyrics as they are apparently less likely to mutate. I imagine Joe says something about this; I'll read his message in full later


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 11:24 AM

today I'm seeing Japanese (not Chinese I suppose as the letters are aligned horizontally rather than vertically) where I should be seeing accented letters. Is it just this computer/server?? See my message of 31 August. I think the ampersand numerically coded letters are intact. ~{(.~} ó, ú, û, etc.


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 11:33 PM

There is a HTMl chart that puts the numeric code and descriptive code side by side, and is easier to read than the one clicked to by Joe: HTML Æ is one of the 255 HTML characters; there is no code for oe together.
Liland put a clickie into one of his threads that gives you a hell of a lot more furrin symbols, signs and whatnot, but they can only be posted to Mudcat with Internet Explorer, and read only with Internet Explorer; Netscape prints them all as ?. lots of codes
All of this is in several threads that have gone before; they are hard to access because the thread titles often don't help (not thought out).
Joe is correct. I am nearly computer-illiterate but I do know that a lot of this stuff doesn't translate from one system to another.
Fada- not in OED or in Webster's. From all of the stuff above I gather all of it boils down to acute or grave accents, which are no problem in HTML.
I had several phone calls today where i was told to enter a number and follow with the pound sign, which (Of course!!!) is #. Who said British and American are the same languages? I give the phone company my lb of flesh too.


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 11:37 PM

Liland's site is accessed, but I guess the one with the nice HTML chart is no longer active. Too bad.


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 10:28 AM

I want to do an experiment here based on my previous postings on this subject. I am going to type in the vowels with the fada's. If any of you see it as something else on your screens, would you say so here, please. My method has worked everywhere I have used it and it is very easy and doesn't involve any codes, just a keystroke. It was implied above that some computers won't "see" it and I guess I am doubtful of that statement.

Á á É é Í í Ó ó Ú ú

Never mind all the rules for the use of each of these, just let me know if a fada appears above each letter I have typed, on your monitor screen.

Go raibh míle maith agat,

Mick


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Alice
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 10:56 AM

testing with the mac option key to see if it still works:

Á á É é Í í Ó ó Ú ú


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Subject: LYR ADD: Phonetic Irish National Anthem
From: Big John
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 11:17 AM

Irish National Anthem - Phonetic for English sound.

Sheena feena fall, ataw fay yowl egg airin,
bween dawr slooa hawr teen daw rawnig cooing,
fay void veh sare shan teer awr shingsher fasta,
nee awgfur fane teerawn naw fane trawl,
anuct a hayen suh barna bwail le gan awr gale cun bawsh no sale,
le gunny screeok fay lawvoc na billair,
shu liv cunnig awrawn na veen.

I tried this for sound using the TALK IT programme and its as near as I can get. Is there a pohetic version already in Mudcat?


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Big John
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 11:26 AM

OK OK maybe there isn't a "pohetic" version, is there a phonetic version?


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 01:52 PM

John...........I am not sure why you posted that in this thread? You might better use supersearch and see if it has been done already, and if not, start a new thread. Thanks, and best regards.

Mick


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 02:10 PM

Just asking questions about what may be obvious to everyone else (computer ignorant).
Big Mick- everything OK in Netscape. These type out in the HTML codes: Á á É é etc. These codes are 193; 225; 201; 233, etc (or &+(Aacute); &+(aacute); etc.
Do these differ from fadas? I guess I can compare them here. Would someone post a definition of "fada"? Is this an Irish only term?
Not sure what your "keystrokes" are, Big Mick.


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 09:27 AM

Sure. One of the definitions for fada is "long". It is a diacritical mark used in Irish to differentiate between the various vowel sounds.

The keystroke is very simple. You simply hold down the alt key while typing whatever vowel you want a fada over. Go to my post in this thread on 02-Sep-00 - 11:49 AM to see how to install it and use it. It is very simple.

Mick


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 07:17 PM

This gets dreary. I can do what Mick says and it looks fine to me - send it to Mudcat and one day it looks okay, another day looks Japanese, another day punctuation marks, another day the wrong letters. The ampersand codes last better. The ~{(.~}(as I read them today)in my message above was written as accented letters using the short cuts; the letters I wrote with ampersand code do appear as they should.
curious to see what the short cut characters appear like today from a different computer: á, é, å (the last one is done in alt key plus numerical code, no ampersand)


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 07:58 PM

The a with ring (angstrom) mark, å , is in the HTML standard (iso8859-1) series of 255 characters as 229, so prints in both Netscape and IE. The capital prints with 197.
HOWEVER, what happens to any of these characters after being juggled around in the digital tradition data base (see Joe's posts above), or other data base, is something else.
I can't use the alt key with numbers or letters on my keyboard when I type into the Mudcat box. I get a noisy "ding."


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 06:42 PM

I believe I used a code from the chart at http://www.bbsinc.com/symbol.html for the angstrom. So the last letter I referred to seems to have appeared as a space.
today's trial: non-ampersand samples: á É É é à
ampersand:á É é à


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 06:48 PM

today all looks well, and my memory about the angstrom is probably wrong. But believe me, these letters do sometimes mutate - and you can probably see samples in previous messages (or look at Mo Ghile Mear in the DT, not repaired last time I looked)


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 07:43 PM

Phillipa, the chart at the website you posted is the HTML standard ASCII iso8859 set of 255 characters, which is accepted by both IE and Netscape, and is the same one posted by Joe.
One problem is with additional chars. that work only with IE, or need to be input with a different keyboard selected. The second problem is in the servers and search engines, as repeatedly pointed out by Joe, which may change input which is not standard English. A third seems to be internet service providers which proscribe or change certain sets of characters.
We could discuss this for a few more miles of postings, but would add nothing not already posted here and in other threads. Moral: Stick to what Joe prescribes for happy Mudcat fishing.


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Snuffy
Date: 05 Mar 02 - 07:44 PM

I think it depends on which mudcat server you get: some postings are OK on Shorty but gibberish on Ragtime/Loki, and vice versa.


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Kaleea
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 12:27 AM

Sure, and I don't know wht all the fuss is all about. With Irish ya simply look at the lettrs in the word and and say the ones that aren't there!


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: GUEST,GERCAR
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 03:03 AM

Just a 'GO RAIBH MAITH AGAT' to 'BIG MICK' for explining to me simply how to get the fada working. Now.........how do you get the seimhthe/buailtes Mick???????? Gerry


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Subject: RE: The ' fada ' in Irish vowels
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 10:40 AM

cleacht, a Geroid, cleacht. Níl a bhuíochas ort.


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