Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:05 PM

Don't be so presumptuous, Don. It wasn't asked in that manner. Go have yourself a nice day. Relax a little.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:20 PM

Ewan's dictum was if you are American it's ok to sing American Songs and if you are English you should sing English songs.

Can we please put this myth to bed? First of all the policy (a folk club with a policy about folk music - wow!!) was that you sang in a language you spoke and understood. That's it. Nothing about Scots, English, American etc.

That was not the policy of MacColl, nor was it a dictum of MacColl. Apart from that every word you write about it is true.

Had it been a dictum of MacColl then he would correctly be described as arrogant and dictatorial. But it was the policy of the folk club that he sang at and it was decided by the audience and people who attended not by Ewan. And it was not designed for anywhere else. Just the Ballad and Blues Club.

There is plenty of evidence for this from people who were there at the time, not least of which is Peggy who describes the process by which this happened fully (see my previous posts for the link) and by Jim Carroll in another thread about MacColl.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Effsee
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 09:02 PM

"But he did write one or two good songs and some rubbish too!"
Just one or two eh?
And what would be the rubbish ones?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 09:07 PM

'As a songwriter, MacColl is best known as the author of "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face," "Dirty Old Town," "The Shoals of Herring," "Freeborn Man" and "The Manchester Rambler." He has written more than 300 songs. Peggy Seeger has assembled 200 of these into The Essential Ewan MacColl Songbook.'

I suppose he wrote a few duds, but if the only song he ever wrote was Shoals of Herring, that puts him above most other writers, IMO.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Effsee
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 09:20 PM

IIRC his first song The Manchester Rambler was written in 1938 for a protest for the rights of ramblers.
He went ont on to write some of the greatest songs in the canon.

IMHO the original question, is totally stupid.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 10:33 PM

A Dave van Ronk CD came out last year, a collection of "rarities" from 1957 to 1969, called The Mayor of MacDougal Street. On one of the tracks he tells the story of being at an English folk club and learning that he was only supposed to sing songs coming out of his own tradition (or words to that effect). He has some harsh words for the organizer of the club - he never names him, so maybe it wasn't MacColl - and decides that the only songs that are really in his tradition are the ones he learned on the street as a kid, so he sings Shaving Cream (lyrics here).

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 12:36 AM

I'm not sure what prompted the first question on this thread but many of the responses have reminded me of one or two relevant events. And yes, I'm a singer and player, just to get the 'cred' out of the way. And I met him when he was on tour in Australia in the '70s and I sang at the Singers Club when I visited, also in the 70s, just to get different 'cred' out of the way.

I found both Ewan and Peggy to be very personable on these (unlinked) occasions, although it was difficult for everyone to escape perceptions that their folklore/performance/pick-a-relevant-attribute status was significantly 'higher' than anyone else's present. I was aware of his reputation as an advocate for particular socialist attitudes towards context and performance and I like the reference above to the fact that being described as a socialist in the UK has different connotations in the US; Australia used to be similar to the UK in this but more and more Australian attitudes are reflecting those of the US.

My own singing seemed to me to be centred on my own tradition/culture. I sang lots of stuff out of the 1st Hackney Scout Songbook (my father's copy, issued to lots of Australian troops during the AIF expeditions before 1950) but, in a family involved with scouting since its introduction to Australia, that was no surprise. I sang lots of Australian songs, lots of English, Scottish and even a few Irish songs and many of my ancestors were English or Scottish, although I found out later that none was Irish. Even so, when I first got involved with what was euphemistically called 'the folk scene' the repertoire seemed split into two broad groups.

One part of the repertoire had lots of Burl Ives, Theodore Bikel, Odette etc stuff and lots of it was in languages other than either English or the singer's native language. Some performers had had experience of working in the same circumstances as those they sang about but many didn't. None of those performers seemed antagonistic to the songs I had grown up with. The other part of the repertoire was heavily influenced by the likes of Ewan MacColl. Most of the performers (there were some notable exceptions) of this repertoire sniffed superciliously and looked down their noses at most of the repertoire I grew up with. Interestingly, none of them had had any real experience working in the fields thay sang about, although one of them has made a career based on the notion of such experience.

Ewan MacColl's insistence on a particular approach was never articulated to me or in my presence, as potently as some in the thread have described but I could understand him doing so if he was constantly exposed to performers who could be described as pretenders. These days there are similar pretenders but we've all grown up and become much more thoughtful. Additionally, we've had much better access to brilliant performances from authentic participants in and from other traditions and "World Music" is now wonderfully accepted, by all except extremists, to the extent that it influences our perception of what is our own home-grown culture. My daughters have grown up in New England (the Australian one, not the US one) and their native culture is, thankfully, much broader and more inclusive than the one I grew up in

Ewan MacColl and Cecil Sharp are similar in more ways than their socialism. Like many others, they forced people to think and assess what was going on. They may have been difficult for some to deal with but my own experience (of MacColl, I'm not old enough to have known Sharp) is that many people are negative about those who force them to think rather than react. I think the evidence suggests MacColl's nett effect was overwhelmingly positive.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 10:09 AM

From Effsee: >>>IMHO the original question, is totally stupid.<<<

Nope...the orginal question was 'designed' specifically to get the reaction it has done...and that was for a thread of great interest. I know, I wrote the stupid question! ;0)

Some great posts here....really enjoyable.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 10:22 AM

The Ballad and Blues club did not have a policy of singing in your own native language - only that you sang in a language you spoke and understood. And it was only for the Ballad and Blues Club.

decides that the only songs that are really in his tradition are the ones he learned on the street as a kid, so he sings Shaving Cream

I am surprised that a singer of the quality of Dave Van Ronk should pick a 1940's copy of a previous 1940's hit song, (Sweet Violets) as representative of his own culture. Still, there is no accounting for taste.

And there were other clubs that had similar policies to Ballad and Blues. One to my certain knowledge only allowed unaccompanied singing. And you had to audition for that club, they would only put singers on that met their own high standards. ( A folk club with standards - wow!!)

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST,Dave S at work
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 10:46 AM

That club wouldn't have been NTMC by any chance Folkiedave? I had heard such tales about the club long before I moved to Nottingham in 1978 and in all honesty they put me off going there. In the ensuing years I have been informed by the likes of Roy Harris, Sid Long, Andy Leith, Lawrence Platt that this was never the case. Since Traditions at the Tiger is called the successor to NTMC no doubt similar stories circulate about us. The Barleycorn Club in Newcastle run by Stefan Sobell and John Revie (Revie was an associate of MacColl's)had a policy of singing songs "from your own cultural media".
MacColl friend or foe? As a folk club organiser the resounding answer would be friend! A supreme professional, always on time, presentation immaculate and always a performance to linger in the memory.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 11:14 AM

The NTMC had a predecessor club held in the Salutation and it was that club I was thinking of. I lived in Clifton at the time.

And I agree wholeheartedly about Ewan and Peggy being consummate professionals.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 02:12 PM

I think the thing about peggy and Ewan was that they were creative themselves, and they appreciated you trying to be thoughtful and creative in your approach. there were clubs were they didn't have the brains and imagination to sort that one out. and there is always someone who who is looking for an excuse to act like an asshole, and any set of rules can be bent to that purpose.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 02:33 PM

There is a persistent urban myth that floorsingers at the NTMC were auditioned on the stairs outside the club room before the residents decided whether to let them on. I can only say that I sang at the NTMC several times in 1978/9 and nothing like that ever happened to me, or to anyone I ever met.

BTW, I have just added a message to the string on hecklers, about a talker I encountered in a folk club in Nottingham. I should maybe mention here that the club in question was neither the NTMC or the Tiger. It was called, as far as I can remember, The Carrington Triangle


"That club wouldn't have been NTMC by any chance Folkiedave? I had heard such tales about the club long before I moved to Nottingham in 1978 and in all honesty they put me off going there. In the ensuing years I have been informed by the likes of Roy Harris, Sid Long, Andy Leith, Lawrence Platt that this was never the case. Since Traditions at the Tiger is called the successor to NTMC no doubt similar stories circulate about us. The Barleycorn Club in Newcastle run by Stefan Sobell and John Revie (Revie was an associate of MacColl's)had a policy of singing songs "from your own cultural media".
MacColl friend or foe? As a folk club organiser the resounding answer would be friend! A supreme professional, always on time, presentation immaculate and always a performance to linger in the memory."

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST,Hootenany
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 02:47 PM

Folkie Dave, you are still confusing things. The Ballads and Blues Club had no such policy. For example Dorothy & Peter Sensier aka Dorita y Pepe often appeared and sang and played songs from South America obviously they understood the language but did not normally speak it. We also had English guys singing Israeli songs and British girls singing Plaisir D'Amour.As I said above, the Ballads and Blues Club continued with it's broad policy
The policy of which you speak was Ewan's and that is one of the reasons if not THE reason he and Peggy went off and started THE SINGER'S CLUB.
I wasn't too keen on the man but I don't deny he had talent.

Hoot
Trying to keep the record straight

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: lesblank
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 03:17 PM

Lizzie, how in the devil can you bad mouth one of the icons of our craft and then kneel down in front of yousef flotsam or whatever his name is now. Cat Stevens made a tremendous contribution to the art and I am sorry he faded away, but to belittle Ewan McCall !! Good Golly !! Take a Midol and sit on it for awhile !!

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 04:15 PM

The Ballads and Blues Club had no such policy. For example Dorothy & Peter Sensier aka Dorita y Pepe often appeared and sang and played songs from South America obviously they understood the language but did not normally speak it. We also had English guys singing Israeli songs and British girls singing Plaisir D'Amour.As I said above, the Ballads and Blues Club continued with it's broad policy

Certainly the Ballads and Blues had an anything goes as you described and Peggy in her article says it did. She also says it changed. She sang French songs and Ewan sang John Henry.

I was not there at the time. My evidence is Peggy's article in "Living Tradition"; and Jim Carroll who was a member of the Critic's Group for twenty years who confirms Peggy's version in another thread.

It is interesting to note that Lizzie who started this thread offers a quote in support of her original question from Colin Irwin's book when the quote offered does no such thing. The quote although it mis-describes the policy as I understand it, also specifically says it was the policy of the club and not that of Ewan.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: shepherdlass
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 05:46 PM

Dave - didn't the fact that Ewan offered young singers training imply that, even if he wasn't the originator of the policy, he probably approved of its general thrust? There's certainly a hint of that in 'Journeyman'. Then again, I wasn't there ...

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 06:19 PM

From:lesblank - PM
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 03:17 PM

"Lizzie, how in the devil can you bad mouth one of the icons of our craft and then kneel down in front of yousef flotsam or whatever his name is now. Cat Stevens made a tremendous contribution to the art and I am sorry he faded away, but to belittle Ewan McCall !! Good Golly !! Take a Midol and sit on it for awhile !!"


I suggest you sit on whatever that is yourself Les.   I haven't 'bad-muothed' Ewan at all. I merely put a question into the arena. You've no idea what I think. Please calm down and....sit down.

Oh..and by the way, I've just got back from seeing John Tams and Barry Coope performing at Otterton Mill and John was talking a great deal about Ewan. I'd tell you what he had to say, but I'd only get an hysterical reaction. Shame really, as it was really interesting.

I've certainly learnt a lot from this thread anyway.

Thanks Les....

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 06:51 PM

And......I haven't 'bad-mOUthed' Ewan either. ;0)

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 06:51 PM

I had a friend who went to one of his workshops and whilst my memory is fading (it would be around 1963/1964!!) I seem to remember that the focus of the weekend was really helping younger and less experienced singers along, not just in singing techniques but also in stage presentation etc. (I am happy to stand corrected on that but that is how I remember it now. The only form of singing teaching otherwise available in those days would be classically based). And there was no charge for it I am sure. Bob Davenport was at the same weekend I seem to remember.

This would go well along with his belief that folk song was another art form equally valuable as many others, and needed training and technique. He would have his views on how to do this as other singing teachers would have.

I believe he did some of this by using techniques of group criticism - and I have always believed the name "Critics Group" came from this. BUT I emphasise I don't know that.

Certainly at that time few would be better qualified to do it. Nowadays many festivals will have something along those lines. And we think nothing of having instrumental teachers.

Certainly he and Peggy practised scales before a performance if they were able and he often used one of his favourite songs "Highland Muster Roll" as his first song in concerts just to sort of "warm up" his voice.

He also helped people with projects and many people testify to his generosity when sharing his knowledge of singing and songs.

As far as singing in a language that a person speaks and understands to be honest I am not sure that is a bad thing.

But I try not to be dogmatic about it!!

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 06:59 PM

Folkie Dave,

My evidence is that I was there, I started going to the Princess Louise around '57 and was there most Saturday nights through all the changes of venue until it finally closed in April or May '65. There were some very entertaining nights there, not the least of which was one night at the Horseshoes in Tottenham Court Road when Malcolm Nixon had to stop Ewan and Dominic Behan coming to blows because Dominic dared to criticise the way Lomax rewarded some of the singers that he recorded in Ireland.
Then there was the night that Ewan told Lisa Turner, a very good English singer five string banjo and guitar player who was doing a floor spot, that she couldn't do an American song. She told him firmly and politely that she wouldn't change her mind and walked off.
THAT WAS EWAN NOT THE CLUB.
It was quite ironic really, when Peggy first came here on a visitor's permit she earned a little pocket money teaching we Brits how to play five string banjo and Elizabeth Cotten style guitar.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: van lingle
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 07:23 PM

Great stuff. I'm glad you asked your original questions, Lizzie.vl

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 09:32 PM

Though I have nothing to contribute, I am following this thread regularly. Very interesting despite efforts to throw it off course.I would like to hear John Tam's comments on EM.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 10:17 PM

So much good work was done by the man!!

I can only hope that I will be judged by the work I've left on record and not by the dumb things I might've said in this forum.

After all is said and done, none of it matters.

Art

Subject: RE: Lizzie Cornish...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 12:15 AM

What do you think? Has the way she approaches things put you off? Do you find her questions inane? Do you think she has a personal problem with Countess Richard and Bonnie Shaljean?

Whaddaya think Lizzie, fair questions? MacColl's contributions to folk music and its preservation cannot be questioned. Your motives in the way you phrase things are another matter. I don't know you, and I hope the impression I am getting about you over the last 6 weeks or so are wrong.

Mick

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 01:44 AM

"MacColl's contributions to folk music and its preservation cannot be questioned."

I'm not sure I know very much about anyone who's been posting but Big Mick's statement seems a bit strong to me. Although I met McColl and managed to have some serious discussions with both him and Peggy, the contexts of the discussions were quite public and their contents unexceptional. To me, anyway. I don't accord him heroic or godlike status but I would say his fire burned rather brightly and, from my distance, both illuminated and warmed. And it wouldn't suprise me if those who were closer got singed by the coals. As described above. Lots of people with fire in the belly about something mange to burn others off and it takes cool heads to hose the situation down.

He's left me with a question, though which I haven't yet been able to answer. At one of his concerts in Melbourne, at least 25 years ago, he sang Sheath and Knife. He gave an introduction in which he mentioned that he had always been left unsatisfied with the completeness of the allusion in the various versions of this ballad that had been collected. He went on to declare that he'd recently discovered a verse that gave the whole ballad new meaning. When he got to that verse it was drowned by someone near me in the audience having a coughing fit so I wasn't able to get the words. I wasn't able to catch up with him and, although I searched extensively ( I used to have my own copy of Bronson, for such purposes), never found any reference to such a verse anywhere.

It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that he'd written the verse himself but, as I can't now remember the words, I doubt I'll ever pin down the answer to the question. One of you might though.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 02:11 AM

that would be the famous verse where the Martians landed and said, actually she's not your sister at all....she's an alien life force and part of our plans to take over the world.

i collected that verse meself. ewan was right, it does give the whole song different slant. I'm sorry you missed it.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 02:30 AM

"she's an alien life force and part of our plans to take over the world."
I'd never thought of John Wyndham as a ballad-singing folkie, but the prospect of a song about the Midwich Cuckoos seems enticing.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 02:32 AM

For more on MacColl and 'Sheath and Knife', see thread  Sheath and Knife.  It's long and confusing (especially since the Mudcat Crash screwed up the message sequence), but in spite of many digressions and some bad temper (not least my own) we did eventually get to the point. Select the "printer friendly" option at the top of the page to see the posts in the correct order.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 04:01 AM

Cards on the table; I knew, worked with and admired MacColl for over 20 years and continue to respect him and his work, yet whenever his name is mentioned I groan because I know that before we can get round to discussing his work and his contribution to folk music there will be the usual scramble over the mound of garbage that has built up around him and his ideas. It's a welcome change to get so many positive comments about him.
First – change of name. Why is it 'bizarre' that he changed his name – and does it matter? Why have I never heard anybody complain that Robert Zimmerman (or Archie Leech, or Doris Kappellhoff or Ethel Gumm or Christopher Grieve) changed theirs? MacColl changed his name when he was in the theatre – that's what actors and others in the arts did and do. Does a name change mean that these people were anything other than good at what they did?
Dictatorial – MacColl wrote very little on folk song (or anything) during his lifetime. He had strong opinions and when asked, he said what he thought (would that we all did that). Virtually all his opinions were given in interviews, and there weren't too many of them. Instead he chose to work with a small group of younger, less experienced singers, helping them to develop and trying out new ideas in order to devise a method of improving and understanding singing and traditional song. Most of those workshops were recorded and are now deposited at Birmingham Central Library and at Ruskin College for people to make up their own minds (Charles Parker Archive web-site for details). Whatever ideas he and the group came up with were solely for the use of him and the group (and anybody who expressed an interest). If I had a criticism of MacColl, it was that he didn't express his ideas more forcibly and publicly. There is a letter by Peggy Seeger on the 'Living Tradition' web-page in response to one I had written earlier, which sums their approach admirably (the debate began on the letter page in January 2000 and ran for six months or so.
In the years I knew and worked with him I never heard him slag off any other singer on the folk scene in public. Nor did I hear him 'dictate' to anybody how or what they should sing. The Singers Club had a policy, decided on and maintained by an audience committee (my wife and I were both members). One of the aims of the club was that singers should develop their own native repertoire based on its traditional singers. In order to do so, visiting singers were asked to perform songs from their own countries. I believe it is because of this policy, which was encouraged by Lomax (it was his idea in the first place), Lloyd, Dominic Behan and the early residents, that we have such a rich English, Irish and Scots repertoire on the folk scene today.
MacColl was incredibly generous with his time, his experience and his material to anybody genuinely interested. While the other 'superstars' of the revival were getting on with their own careers, he ran free weekly workshops for newer and less experienced singers – it ran for nearly ten years. I don't know any other singer who devoted anything like that time to others.
There was a wonderful example of misrepresentation of MacColl and his ideas in the recent – dreadful 'Folk Britannia'. In a discussion of Irish fiddler Michael Gorman, it was stated by somebody I have great respect for, that in the early days it was the aim of MacColl, Lloyd et al to create 'folk ensembles' similar to those to be found in eastern Europe. As evidence, the sleeve notes of a Folkways record, 'Irish Jigs and Reels' were produced, and yes - there it was in black and white - which was odd, as I knew both Lloyd and MacColl hated those ensembles. However, on a closer examination of my own copy of the record I saw that the sleeve notes were written, not by MacColl, Lloyd or anybody on the British folk scene, but by American scholar and collector Sidney Robertson Cowell. It seems that they have to bear the responsibility for other peoples ideas as well as their own!
MacColl died in 1989 and seventeen years later it is still possible to witness a regular dance over his grave (except that he was cremated and his ashes scattered over Kinder Scout). I have yet to read a decent analysis of his work – perhaps the forthcoming biography by Ben Harker will break the mould.
Sorry to have gone on for so long – it's covers half a lifetime for me.
Jim Carroll
PS The version of Sheath and Knife that McColl sang was given to him by scholar Robert S Thomson, now at Gainsville University, Florida.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 05:07 AM

Thank you for that, Jim. So many misapprehensions and myths are trotted out at the drop of a hat whenever Ewan MacColl is mentioned (and I have been guilty in that respect also, though through scepticism rather, I hope, than prejudice) that discussions of this kind badly need informed comment from people who were there at the time.

"Lizzie Cornish" has been banned from other folk music discussion groups for, so far as I can tell, being an annoying and ignorant nuisance. Her complete misunderstanding of Colin Irwin's comments (themselves not very accurate) is fairly typical. "Obsessive rules" ? Come now; do us a favour.

The Mudcat is one place where you might actually be welcome, Lizzie; do try, though, to pay attention to what other people have to say. The onsite search engine (link at the top of every page) will give you the chance to find out what has already been said on any particular subject. Always try that first, if only to avoid repeating fallacies that have already been debunked.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 05:39 AM

Interesting thread all the same. I have a great admiration for MacColls work, although myself being a rambler from Manchester I can never forgive him that..:-) I have heard in the past that he was not the easiest person to get on with but, hey, who's perfect?

I must say that I am sometimes annoyed at the almost god-like reverence show to him and how even poor performers expect us to like the work just because it is MacColls. I shouldn't get annoyed. It is my flaw - no-one elses - but I do:-( There are equally good songs and some, in my mind, equally good songwriters about even now. And just because it is written by 'God' doesn't mean it has to be performed off key with one finger stuck in the ear!

The other interesting question it poses is what about globalisation? Look at the Mudcat for instance. how can anyone, nowadays, say a particular tradtion is not their own? Surely in this day and age it is perfectly acceptable to use the resources available to all? Wonder what Ewan would have made of it all?

I am part Russian/Polish/English/Welsh with a bit of Irish thrown in. Wonder what traditions it would have been safe for me to sing? :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 07:46 AM

From Malcolm:

"Lizzie Cornish" has been banned from other folk music discussion groups for, so far as I can tell, being an annoying and ignorant nuisance. Her complete misunderstanding of Colin Irwin's comments (themselves not very accurate) is fairly typical. "Obsessive rules" ? Come now; do us a favour.

Nowt to say to deeply ignorant comments Malcolm, apart from far from misunderstanding what Colin said, I chose to make the comments I did for the reasons I had. And the understanding of that can now be seen in this thread. I wanted a different view to come out.


From Big Mick:

"What do you think? Has the way she approaches things put you off? Do you find her questions inane? Do you think she has a personal problem with Countess Richard and Bonnie Shaljean?

Whaddaya think Lizzie, fair questions? MacColl's contributions to folk music and its preservation cannot be questioned. Your motives in the way you phrase things are another matter. I don't know you, and I hope the impression I am getting about you over the last 6 weeks or so are wrong.

Mick"


Mick, any chance you could PM me, rather than have yet another thread ruined by these sort of comments. This thread is *hugely* interesting and *very* informative. Please, can we keep it that way. Thanks.


Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 08:17 AM

I will be offline in a couple of hours and won't have access to the internet until early next week (have to deal with a stressful private situation) so just to say that there are no "personal problems" between Lizzie and myself, at least not that I am aware of. Our differences of opinion only exist in cyberspace. I won't be able to post too much later than this, so I'm just mentioning it now. If there are further comments on this issue, I won't see them. Wishing a happy weekend to EVERY PERSON in this thread, wherever their opinions lie.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Fiona
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 08:29 AM

From Malcolm Douglas,

<<"Lizzie Cornish" has been banned from other folk music discussion groups for, so far as I can tell, being an annoying and ignorant nuisance.>>

---------------------------------

Malcolm,

I disagree, Lizzie can be far more than an 'ignorant and annoying nuisance'.

Her first ban from the BBC board came about through her abuse of their complaints system, specifically my use of Scots in a discussion of childrens songs. Since 'non-standard English' is not allowed the mods removed several messages (inc gaelic song titles & 'Ilkley Moor'). This may not seem important, but on a folk music board it is essential to have a little leeway in the use of 'non standard English'.

It took some time before I realised what was going on and I got into quite a fight with the mods about it. It was only by posting 'Scots Wha Hae' on both the folk board and another BBC board that I realised it wasn't an automatic ban, but that my messages had been actively complained about. Once the mods knew what was happening they dealt with it very quickly and apologised to me.

But it was done with mischief and ill intent and caused much bad feeling as other board users got involved in the ensuing argument.

I know I should keep out of this but it still makes me angry that some folk enjoy causing trouble so much they don't care how thay do it.

fx

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 08:43 AM

Oh HELL! WHY can't you just leave these threads alone Fiona?
I have NEVER done ANY such thing! EVER. This thread is bringing out SO MANY lovely stories about Ewan MacColl...WHY can't you just let that happen?

I'm at present tryig to listen to John's concert from last night to hear again what he was saying about Ewan.

Mick...if you want your answer....then THERE it is..right above me. Over and over and over! I am NEVER allowed to talk about the music that I LOVE without these people doing this to me...no matter which board I'm on or which thread. And you wonder *WHY* I get *SO* angry?

Those words above are a complete and utter breathtaking lie! I've copied them and will now send them to Mel and her colleagues at the BBC, so that *finally* she may begin to understand what has been happening.

And now...if you'll excuse me, I'm going back to John Tams and his words about Ewan....

Apologies for reacting to it, but I'll not let *that* stand, as well 'this person' knows. PLEASE can this thread now be left alone to continue as it was.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:25 AM

Lizzie. No complaints or gripes. Can I ask a question? From the very start you opened the thread with an attack on MacColls attitude to other singers and styles. If I may quote three references you made -

1. Did he help enormously by being so dictatorial about 'folk' music?

2. But, did his strict views perhaps go too far? Are they still being applied today in some places?

3. I suppose I'm just asking if Ewan's obsessive rules damaged the music as well, in the sense of seeming to make it become elitist and at times very overly intellectualised?

Sorry if I misread you but emotive phrases like 'dictatorial' 'views gone too far' and 'obsessive rules' lead me, and many others here, to think you had already decided.

You now go on to This thread is bringing out SO MANY lovely stories about Ewan MacColl...WHY can't you just let that happen? and PLEASE can this thread now be left alone to continue as it was.

Are we to take it from this that you have now changed your mind from the dictatorial obsesive MacColl to a man of whom there are so many lovely stories? If so it may help you communicate with other people if you were to explain these changes of heart. Maybe you get criticised and banned from other forums because it is so difficult to understand what you are saying and what your motives are?

Please consider this to be constructive critisism. But most of all let us know what YOUR views are as well.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:33 AM

I have heard in the past that he was not the easiest person to get on with but, hey, who's perfect?

In fact there is a lot of evidence from people on this thread, let alone elsewhere, to say just the opposite. Read Jim Carroll talking about the workshops he ran. Let's start believing that version instead eh!! I met him four times and I found him incredibly easy to get on with! Which is why I get annoyed with the myths built up about him on hearsay. And why I fail to see why Colin Irwin was "scared witless" by him.

how even poor performers expect us to like the work just because it is MacColl's.

Can you explain this a bit more Dave? MacColl wrote some good songs and some bad songs. I suspect that most people would agree there were more good than bad. And also that the best were brilliant. Some that many have regarded as best ones have passed into the tradition ("Shoals of Herring"); into the pop world ("First time Ever"); have been recorded by dozens of people ("Dirty Old Town"); and some are just sung where people gather, (too many to mention). The bad songs have disappeared. That's the same with most song writers I would have thought.

I am part Russian/Polish/English/Welsh with a bit of Irish thrown in. Wonder what traditions it would have been safe for me to sing? :-)

I personally think that you should sing songs in a language you know and are comfortable in. I honestly cannot see why people think that is a problem. On the other hand should you want to sing in Russian, Polish, Welsh, Serbo-Croat, or any other language that is entirely your privilege. Will it sound as good as you usually do? :-)>

My mother was born in the Orkney Islands and was wholly Orcadian. I was brought up in the north of England and have had no contact whatsoever with Orkney. I would feel very uncomfortable singing anything Orcadian. Even if I could sing.

P.S. How's the missus DtG?

P.P.S. I agree with Jim Carroll that it would be great to have a discussion about MacColl's work without all this and other garbage. A forlorn hope I suspect.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:48 AM

Can you explain this a bit more Dave?

Course I can, Dave. I was not realy refering to MaColls writing at all but the performance of said by other people. Just because it is a MacColl song, no matter how good, it does not mean it will be performed well unfortunately:-(

I have said in the past that a particular song was poor and been chided because it was one of Ewans best. I am not one to believe that a particlar songwriter or singer is always good. I get annoyed with the attitude that if it is MacColl it must be good.

Like I said before it shouldn't bother me but my flaws are many and good points few:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 10:29 AM

PPS
A couple of things.
Just read through the thread carefully (didn't come across it till late last night).
I wasn't a member of the Critics Group for 20 years - it only lasted for 10 and I didn't join it till the latter years. My wife Pat Mackenzie was a member at least four years longer than I was.
We did continue to associate with Ewan and Peg up to his death and Pat and I interviewed him at length about his work over about a year.
MacColl did not claim to write traditional songs; he argued that traditional song forms and working-class speech were valid forms in which to create new songs (he did use other models, such as Kurt Weill and on at least one occasion Gilbert and Sullivan). He encouraged other singers to study traditional styles to see if they were relevant to modern composition and performance. He never claimed his songs to be traditional, but he was highly chuffed when they were mistaken for such (we recorded versions of Freeborn Man on at least three occasions from Travellers). It is ironic that he has been accused of stealing 'Freeborn' and 'Shoals of Herring' from the tradition (completely devoid of evidence) and claiming them as his own, but I'm sure it would have pleased and amused him greatly.
MacColl's best friend couldn't call him a pussy-cat, but he was far from the arrogant monster he is usually painted. His main problem was that he spoke his mind and when he was asked a question he said what he thought, which was as popular as a fart in a telephone box in a revival that was in general sycophantic, self congratulatory and first-name dropping. Personally he was quite shy and often adopted a front to get over this.
His first influences were Scots songs; his mother and several of the people he grew up with in Salford told me this. His environment was largely Scots, and in order to sing the songs he grew up with he did what many actors do and adopted a neutral Scots accent so that they were understandable to non-Scots. I can understand why this disturbed a number of people, though it never did me.
I am in the process of indexing all the recordings of the Critics Group workshops in the hope that one day they will become freely available (when it is sorted out who owns them!!!!!).
Thank you Lizziefor starting this thread. Personally I couldn't give a toss whether you sing, dance or perform handstands. I get more than a little hacked off sometimes at the self-appointed 'big league' who seem to have given themselves a sole right to hold and express opinions.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 10:41 AM

Sorry Malcolm,
Didn't see your letter till too late. Whatever disagreements we might have had, I've come to respect your knowledge and ideas.
My big league comments were not aimed at you but in a different direction altogether.
Whatever Lizzie's past sins might be, I'm glad she started this thread.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Fiona
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 10:47 AM

Apologies from me too, I should have kept my mouth shut. You're right Jim it is an interesting thread.

Fiona

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 01:23 PM

Yes, this thread is interesting, despite its negative beginning. We do get a fuller picture of Ewan MacColl than can be gained from the usual short biographical paragraph. Thanks largely to the contributions from those who knew him for a long time.

And next year someone will begin it all over again.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 01:45 PM

Jim, thank you very much for your comments at 07 Jul 06 - 04:01 AM.

I first heard of Ewan MacColl when, in 1958, I took a course called "The Popular Ballad" in the English department at the University of Washington in Seattle. During classes, the professor, David C. Fowler (later, author of A Literary History of the Popular Ballad 1968), played many cuts from the nine record collection of "English and Scottish Popular Ballads" by Ewan MacColl and A. L. Lloyd. A couple of years later, I attended the 1960 Berkeley Folk Festival where Peggy Seeger and Ewan MacColl were among the featured performers. I had a chance to hear them live in concert (both separately and together) and in workshops. During the festival, I had the good fortune of attending an informal after-concert party that was also attended by Peggy and Ewan. I had a chance to talk with them for awhile, and although we didn't get into any really deep discussions about folk music, I found them friendly and outgoing.

I respect them both very highly and to my mind there is no question as to the huge contribution they have made to the field of folk music. Mike Lieb, a friend of mine, was also attending the festival. He didn't sing himself, and had no plans for getting involved in folk music other than just being a listener. But at this festival, he became so intrigued with MacColl and his singing that a short time thereafter, at a song fest back in Seattle he broke into song—a Scottish ballad he had learned from one of MacColl's recordings. Mike, it turned out, was a darned good singer! Interestingly enough, he sang while straddling a chair backwards and cupping a hand behind his ear, but later on, when he taught himself to play 5-string banjo, he dropped this mannerism. He soon became one of the more prominent singers of folk songs and ballads in the Pacific Northwest. And I'm quite sure that Mike was not the only one that MacColl—and Peggy Seeger—have inspired to participate actively.

I have no idea what the background beef between Lizzie Cornish and Fiona might be and I don't really care. That's their business. But I am glad that Lizzie started this thread because it's turned out to be a very interesting discussion.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 01:49 PM

Don Firth bring up an interesting point. It would be phony for him to try to be someone he's not. I think that those of us who are interested in folk music have to come to terms with how we fit in. For example, Pete Seeger is a highly educated New Englander who lived mostly in New York and got most of his work around the big cities. And yet, he embodies the "image" of the backwoods banjo picker. He plays ninth and thirteenth chords on the banjo and at one time was a tenor banjo player who knew all the words to the popular music of his day.

Peggy, Ewan's wife, played a sophisticated style of banjo which would not be the norm in say the collected works of Hobart Smith. Her guitar work on "I Wish I Was A Single Girl Again" is a lovely arrangement that has all the earmarks of an "Art song". Not from the Southern Mountain field recordings.

When I traveled through the South with Jack Elliott and Guy Carawan, Ted Sutton (Maggie's Old Man) from Maggie Valley Gap was excited because I played the banjo "Californy style".

I think we accept the Seegers because they do bring their own backgrounds and tradition to the music but they understand it and have studied it sufficiently well enough to do it their way.

The idea of being slavish to performing a song by imitating the way a traditional performer on a field recording sings it is specious and phony. It's possible that it's a good learning tool but to present oneself as being from a specific tradition or the best exponent of it doesn't make any sense. Somewhere, the artist appears bringing into it their individual stamp.

I think Ewan was upset by the lack of knowledge or empathy that some of the pop skiffle types in England at the time were displaying. They simply weren't enough in touch with American music to make it credible. I think it was a reaction. OTOH Peggy and Ewan have written songs that come from their own experience which may or may not have been influenced by traditional ethnic folk music.

I happened to enjoy Roberta Flack's cover of their song because for one thing, it's a damn fine song and the proof is that it can be performed outside of the context of the original environment and people will and did like it. it didn't invalidate the song one bit.

The "Seeger Sessions" are another example. It's a hootenanny at the local pub. It's loud, it's fun and there's some good music in it. Is it Pete? Of course not. How could it be?
To Bruce's credit, he doesn't try to go there. He does it his way. Is it great? Who knows and frankly who cares? I enjoyed it.

The same can be said for any of the so-called "commericializers" of folk music. The KT knew how to entertain people and make them happy. They brought the public the folk music that hadn't surfaced beyond college students, collectors or academics. Were they great? Who cares? They were fun.

Many fine musicians were part of the Folk Scare. Some of them understood folk music better than others I maintain that the ones who really understood it will prevail over the decades.

This business of trying to force an artist into a trad-ethnic pigeonhole is not only a waste of time but actually degrades the appreciation of folk music by inhibiting it so that those who are not acquainted with it can enjoy it.

Ewan was a "popularizer" of sorts. He brought the Scottish Ballad to the stage in a way that some people were moved and accepted it. But the important thing here is that he brought with his performance an understanding, an empathy and a familiarity with that tradition whether he came from it or not.

I remember Josh White being criticized because he didn't do the blues like a Texas convict or honky-tonk belter. He didn't do it like Son House or Leadbelly. Josh brought the blues to a Cafe Society audience who learned to love it because he was a great artist and did his own thing with it. Leading Blind Lemon Jefferson around gave him some "folk cred" but he reflected more the tradition of some of the pop music of his day as well as his stints with the Golden Gate Quartet and the Carolinians (who were highly arranged). But through Josh, many people began to see the tradition of the blues.

Ewan was not a foe to folk music. He was intolerant of the shallowness of some of the pop performers in his country at the time.

You need the Alan Lomaxes and the Ewan McColls as well as the KT and the PPand M's.
They all serve an important function in the cultural lives of their countries.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 02:11 PM

Hi Dave,

I don't have much time to write tonight I'm afraid....but here we go...very fast!

In answer to your questions above, I've read in quite a few places that Ewan was not the easiest man to get along with etc. etc. and also that he was very stringent about certain things. For years now I've been told that I like the 'wrong' type of music, that I know nothing, that the people whose music I love sing 'in the wrong accent'
(I kid you not!).....and I would so LOVE to get down to the reason behind it all. I thought that perhaps Ewan *did* have a lot to do with building up some sort of 'dictatorial grou of people around him, who for decades have 'ruled' certain parts of the folk world, but now....because of this thread, I've completely changed my mind.

I'm very glad that these stories have come out, that 'myths' have been put straight and the truth is winning over, particularly from person after person who met or knew Ewan.

It's very easy for people to get the wrong impression about someone, because of rumours that are circulated by others. I now know far, far more about Ewan MacColl than I ever did, before I started this thread....and I put the man in a totally different category!

But that *is* why I worded everything as I did. I hoped that if there was another side....it would come out.

Also, John Tams sang nothing but his praises last night, as he told us all about the history behind The Manchester Rambler, Ewan's part in that, along with The Duke Of Devonshire's....and he talked about the new The Radio Ballads, which he (John) and others had so much of a part in....and how he felt all the way through that Ewan was sitting right on his shoulder, telling him to make sure that he did the original series justice. I *loved* the new series, I've got links to it on my Myspace page...and I'll make sure to try and track down the original ones as well. I know there are certain links on the BBC site to some parts of them.

The new Radio Ballads will be out on CD just before Christmas, so John said. They are still available on 'Listen Again' right here, for anyone who missed them.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/radioballads/2006/index.shtml


I now realise that the bizarre behaviour that has rained down on me for so very long was never from the beginnings of what Ewan or Peggy wanted to do....and somehow he has been tarred with a very wrong brush...certainly in my mind.

I'm just so very glad that the record, at least in here, is being set straight on his behalf.

Oh....and you'll be pleased to know that Andrew, the last Duke of Devonshire, actually apologised at the end of his life, for what his father, the previous Duke had actually done to the working people of Manchester and Sheffield, by fencing in vasts areas of the Derbyshire Moors...getting many of them arrested etc. He said it was totally wrong. Still it shows the power of Mass Trespass I guess. His son Peregrine, the present Duke, agrees with him.

The things you learn from John Tams eh! And *that's* why my children love to go and see him. He's a natural teacher.

So, many many thanks to all the decent people on this thread who've taken the trouble to put their often long, involved but always interesting posts on here.

Right...gotta dash! Friends just arrived! EEK!!


Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 03:24 PM

I'd say that was a good point to close this thread.

DAve Eyre

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 04:58 AM

Thanks, Lizzie. Well explained. I, and hopefuly a lot more people, understand what you were doing now.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: JamesHenry
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 08:08 AM

Nice "con" job the way I see it.

Post a thread full of inuendo, stand back and evaluate the reaction, then post agreeing with the general concensus along with a contrite mea culpa that wins the admiration of the gullable.

Excellent insight from the main body of contributers, though, which I suppose justifies the thread.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl ...Folk Friend Or Foe?
From: Greg B
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 08:20 AM

James...

And your point would be?

It's unfortunate that someone forced you to read a
thread the existence of which you object to so thoroughly.

I suppose that reading all 98 posts to it must have been
an awful experience.