An American Traditional Music Forum?

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 09:31 AM

That's too bad really.
There is MUCH for them to learn from a discussion site with a format such the Mudcat.

There is a very real downside to sites like MySpace and then there is the total inaccuracy of some of the information supplied on Sites such as Wik but if that is where some choose to go for what, at times is, complete misinformation then that, as always, is a matter of choice.

If I want to ask a question about the Origins of a particular Song or Melody and to hopefully find out the History attached to it I have found from personal experience that MySpace, Wik and a few other sources have thrown some real crap my way at times.
On the other hand hand I have ,and no doubt will continue to find the answers I require right here and usually with more input and knowledge that I could have hoped for and at a speed that often suprises me.
I have not found this to be the case on pretty much any other Musical Info Sites I have visited which is what brings me back to the Mudcat time and time again when I want a serious answer to a serious question.
What the Mudcat may lose it Traffic is perhaps what helps it retain in accuracy.
To anyone with more than a fleeting interest in the origins and History of American Traditional Music this may well be one of the more important reasons for the Mudcat's obvious attraction. Another Bonus I have found when visiting the Mudcat, it gives the enquirer a oppertunity to ask many People who have spent a fair portion of their Lives preserving the Trad Music of this Country. That is pretty cool in my book.
Time will tell.
New is not always good. Sometimes new is just that. New!

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 08:13 AM

For the DIYers, open source, Wiki and the MySpace sorts of social networking apps are the current (not future) wave. The Mudcat sorts of social communities are out of date.

Just one more of the many reasons why you'll never attract a young crowd here as regulars.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 12:34 AM

Once the newsgroups were everything (who could ask for more than ANSI?)

Abby Sale's (and Harp Girl's) postings led me to the collection of Dick and Susan with the Ditital Tradition that became the home for American Blues/Folk at the Mudcat thanks to Max/Joe/Barthalomew.

Within the next two years, you will witness a change in technology that would leave members of decade ago with their chins hanging on the ground. We are in for a period of phenominal change. For a single example, IBM and Georgie Tech (yeah, those ramblin' wrecks) have clocked speeds as high as 500gig, optimal conditions and 300gig, at room temperatures.

Perhaps, only the young will survive...but there will always be a place for live performance, tab, lyrics, fake-books and I,IV,V with a flated fifth (that should have been drunk.)

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 08:26 PM

Maybe change the Mudcat's name!
Call it Mudopedia.
Simplify everything. Make the Mudcat into Wiki Format. That should help the few who continually supply Wiki responses to questions asked on the Mudcat. Like those asking the question didn't have the ability to go directly to Wiki in the first place duh!
Of course implementing this "name change, format change" measure would of course ensure that the "Mudcat" would no longer be the place that it is and therefore once applied "The Mudcat" or rather the new and improved version "Mudopedia" would finally be more to the pleasing of some of it's more recent Members who have decided that this Site requires an overhaul.
Of course this place would then bore most Visitors shitless but this, of course, would be totally irrelevant.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 07:45 PM

I think that would be to complicated and formal.   But being able to click and see a listing of existing threads about African music, or Zydeco, or Gregorian chant or whatever would be handy. Or Americvan Traditional Music in all its many varieties.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: Snuffy
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 07:39 PM

Are we coming back to the idea of turning the permathreads into articles in a folk encyclopedia or a Wiki? The useful bits of Mmltiple threads could be combined, the duplications and irrelevancies eliminated and the signal to noise ratio of the original threads vastly improved in many cases.

Then you could easily look up your American, Cajun, Oldtime or whatever.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:55 PM

Right now, as has been pointed ouit, there are a number of active threads about American Traditional Music of one sort or another; and over the years there have of course been many many more, including some about the less visited varieties mentioned by the mystery GUEST who started this thread, and they are still there to be read and often enough continued.

But of course for a newcomer to this forum it's not that easy searching out stuff like that. And that ties in with what Azizi was mentioning - it'd be very easy to get the impression from just looking at the active threads at any time that the Mudcat is only about a pretty limited range of music, and that the Mudcat community is made up of people who are only interested in a pretty limited range of music. And I think that would be a false impression.

I wonder if it'd be possible to develop be some easier way for helping overcome this, and make the place more welcoming to people with particular interests in types of folk music that aren't on display at times. Some kind of broadbrush index system. With the task of searching out and listing the threads taken on by people with a focus on some type of music or whatever, and a permathread or some kind of menu to bring them all together.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:51 PM

Bob - This weekend I picked up a "new" CD by Johnny Cash called "Personal File". Two CD's of just Johnny and his guitar. No other instruments and no production except a little bit of echo. All of these songs were recorded back in the 70's when his voice was in great shape. One CD is gospel and the other CD includes stuff like "Drink to me only with thine eyes" , "I'll take you home again Kathleen", "Galway Bay" and "The Cremation of Sam McGee".

Really great stuff. Highly recomended.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:36 PM

I agree, Frank.

Production is heaps of fun and so many people give in to the temptation to layer on the sound. It produces dynamism that can be enormously rewarding personally, great to play in a group, sing harmony, get studio mix, the Big Beat, all that. BUT...

The longer I go on, the more I want to listen to the sound of a solo voice, sometimes alone, sometimes with a solo instrument. I think it's because I like my music stripped down to what one person's vocal cords and fingers, unassisted, can do.   Why? Because it's lonesomer and just sounds righter somehow.

And partly because at the core, each of us is one musician, carrying along whatever we can carry by ourselves. Sort of a portability issue. (That's not very clear, I know; the feeling is clearer than any way I can describe it.)

Like picking and singing off a high front porch by your ownsome till the skeeters drive you indoors.

But I admit the casual listener will pretty nearly always gravitate to the bigger sound. 'S the way it is.

Bob

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: Brían
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 12:59 PM

Frank Hamilton's post puts words to ideas I have been wrestling with this morning after my Sunday Morning Mudcat perusal. A lot of really good songs stop being sung because people don't take timw to consider the context of how thwy were written or have been sung.

Brían

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:03 AM

I think Joe has a point. OTOH we can talk about styles of music of which I am very interested.

For example, I hear Springsteen coming from a pop-rock place in the Seeger Sessions. I hear the obligatory girl back-up group, the twin fiddlers ala Bob Wills, the rock drummer and pianist and the overall "studio" sound of the production.

That said, I think this approach to American folk music may be as valid as any other. The difference I hear is that there is a kind of intimacy that's lost when you hear just a voice and a guitar or a voice and banjo. We have become so conditioned to "production" in the pop music area that it's hard for many to just hear the simplicity of a voice and one accompanying instrument. i think, however, that this is what makes much of American folk music unique.

Cecil Sharp did not like the sound of a banjo accompanying his "English" ballads in America.I think he missed the wonderful interplay between voice and accompanying instruments that can take place when a folk artist pares down the performance so it's not overdubbed or obscured by a number of instruments.

I will cite what I consider to be some watermarks in the folk revival performances.
Pete Seeger's "Darlin' Corey" album on Folkways. Erik Darling's "True Religion" on Vanguard. Almost any performance of Josh White. Jean Ritchie with her voice and dulcimer. Burl Ives even though his guitar playing was um-plunk, it was the right um-plunk. Early Peggy Seeger "Folksongs of Courting and Complaint". Cisco Houston. "Nine Hundred Miles'. Woody's dry simple accompaniment on "Dust Bowl Ballads" was rich and appropriate as well. Of course there are many others.

Then there are many examples of traditional American folk music such as Buell Kazee, Uncle Dave, Doc Boggs, Carter Family, Clarence Ashley, Vera Hall, Texas Gladden, Horton Barker, Leadbelly, and all of the blues greats from Son House, Lightnin' Hopkins,McKinley Morganfield, Brownie and Sonny..................to me this is North American folk music because it reflects the total performance of interplay between voice and instrument on one hand and on the accapella side, a moving understanding of the material. In this way, the vocal and instrumental interplay reflects the artistry that was exhibited by the early art songs of Dowland, Campion, and early Europe.

The rise of Irish, English and Scottish music reflects this marvelous interplay between instrument and voice as well in the hands of Andy Irvine or others. I think that when this music goes pop it picks up the production value of American pop music and changes the music. In some cases it works because it enhances the text but in many cases it gets in the way because it's trying to be pop production (to sell records).

In some cases the Singer/Songwriter tradition supports the interplay between voice and instrument but I would advocate that in most cases the songwriting could be better.
Paul Simon and Joannie Mitchell set the bar high in their earlier recordings. Stan Rogers is one of the masters also. Eric Bogle. BTW, Jean Ritchie writes wonderful songs also.


The problem with a "production" is that many times it becomes more important than the song.

So the singer/instrumentalist-accompanist becomes important in North American Folk Music and is what turned people on to it.

Today we see the "image" of the folksinger and many accept that as being representative of the music which might be misleading. The image is more important than the music.

We see "bands" cropping up that sometimes get in the way of the text. BTW, this was Pete Seeger's complaint at Newport when he thought Dylan's words were being masked by too many electric instruments. That's what started the whole ridiculous idea that Pete was going to take an axe to the cords.

There is however a value in a good "production" in pop music as has been shown by the Beatles, The Band, The Stones, Byrds, The Doobies, Motown, Disco etc. as well as some of the contemporary groups. It's a different way of listening to music.

When we listen to the effect that traditional American folk music has had on popular music, we see that the North American tradition is alive and well.

I do miss the simplicity of a singer/instrumentalist interpreting the songs that originally turned us on to American folk music, though.

You can hear this interplay in jazz. Tony Bennett and Bill Evans comes to mind.
Or Louis on the "West End Blues".

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 08:38 AM

There are some current threads on the Footstompin forum, like this on The Crooked Jades

And I can't see the Mudcat admins objecting to that reference being posted.

We'd get better-informed discussion here, though.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 07:24 AM

Thou shalt not discuss any forum but this one.

fRoots message board – do you post?



These two attempts at music related discussion were relegated to the BS section and subsequently closed.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 02:17 PM

I think that in general, it's a mistake to talk about categories of music. Usually, that kind of topic ends up in a circular discussion, and you can talk in circles only so long before people start getting bored.

If you want to discuss American Traditional Music, talk about something specific - a specific song, a specific performer, a specific event - THEN you'd have a discussion topic that can go somewhere.

I'm sure other people have other opinions, but the most interesting Mudcat discussion for me are the ones in songs. I'm following two good threads right now - Sidney Allen and Wind That Shakes the Barley.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: Alba
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 02:06 PM

Speaking as one of those dreaded so called Celtic Musicians!! (whatever that is) and considering that American Music has grown from the roots of the Music that was brought to this Country via a few of those, again, so called "Celtic/Anglo" Countries, as well as many other Countries in the first place, I get slightly confused why some Musicians and Music Listeners seem to put down the very foundations of what is surely "American Trad Music". A Music form which in my opinion is a totally different gendre from " American Folk" Music altogether.
I have spent the last 5 years LEARNING so, so much about the History of "American" Music on this Forum from a wide variety of sources and through the rich Cultural diversity which is right here on the Mudcat.
It seems things always harp back to those old "Label" issues again and to what a few people want to see here on the Mudcat when really if they want certain topics to be the main attraction so badly (and I mean this in a nice way) they should perhaps go and put the time and effort into creating their own Musical Forum Nervana somewhere in Cyber space and gather like minded others to join them there.

Considering that I also sing and play Ethiopian and Algerian, Reggae, Blues and Cajun Music, (some of which even dares to include a fusion of so called "Celtic" influences at times... gasp... oh my ) maybe there should be a Forum about that too...I know one thing for sure...
I won't be starting it..:)

I am grateful to the Mudcat and it's talented Members for opening my Ears and my Eyes in a continual learning process regarding this New Country and her Musicians and her wide ranging Musical Hertitage. Long may the Mudcat provide me with that oppertunity.

Can't please all the people all the time....and why would ya want to anyway? ** BG **

Light and Music to all
Jude

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 09:43 AM

Oddly enough, the past couple of years have been very good ones for folks who are interested in American Trad Music. People like Dan Milner and Deb Cowan are carrying on the late, lamented Margaret MacArthur's investigation of the Helen H. Hartness collection of New England material; Judy Cook has been touring singing a lot or traditional American stuff; Pam Goddard and Sheila Kay Adams have released some marvelous CDs of traditional American material, Guy Davis and Cephas & Wiggins have released new traditional blues CDs...and that's just a few off the top of my head.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 09:24 AM

Mudcatters have never been able to agree on "what is folk music," and I think it's a good bet that Mudcatters (or anyone else) will be unable to agree on "what is American Traditional Music" or any other "genre" within music.

Yes, one can be descriptive and scholarly. Yes, one can rely on one's ear to guide personal preferences. One can take two songs of extremely wide variance and show how they are different enough to belong in two "different' categories. One can specialize in a form, time period, artist, etc. The problem is, these approaches only work for one, because music transcends our words, our preferences, and our categorization.... it escapes from any boundaries we try to hedge it into, and that escape is accelerated whenever more than "one" try to share the yard.

So any forum for any sort of music is going to be challenged-- by the very nature of music-- to maintain itself without soon becoming as rigid as religious fundamentalists. Eeeewww-- I wouldn't want to be there for long! And I sure wouldn't want anyone I like to be the poor moderator!

~Susan

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 10:02 PM

Buck-

I think that the "buck" sometimes stops with us [we who post here]. It seems to me that the view that "Mudcat is what it is" is counter-productive. Imo, like any organization, it would benefit Mudcat to go 'meta' and engage in periodic if not ongoing evaluation as a means of ensuring that we are doing the best we can to meet the organization's [the community's stated goals...

I feel that if we [Mudcat]want to welcome new members-of any race or ethnicity-we have to be welcoming.

And I think, for the most part, we are.

As I see it, a big hurdle is getting African Americans I interact with to become more familiar with and comfortable with the Internet period-and then with discussion forums.

I don't doubt that in time, there will be more African Americans [and other people of color]posting here -particularly when there are more topics such as what the Guest threadstarter indicated an interest in.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:42 PM

Another correction-"And part of it is the sense that this website is White people talking about "White music" ...

I should also say that part of the Mudcat's attraction for me is exchanging conversation with people from various parts of the world who share my interest in the origins of certain music/songs/rhymes. Unfortunately [it's a shame that], I only know a few folks in my
non-cyberspace world who share this particular interest.

****

GLoux, yes, I intend to keep 'talking up' Mudcat to folks. As a result of encouraging people to check out Mudcat, so far I know of two folks who have joined-one is a 'person of color' and one is not.
[not that this matters all ways at any time, but I believe that some times in some ways it does matter]

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:37 PM

Azizi - as with so many things in life, "it is what it is." If some folks don't feel confortable, that is indeed unfortunate, but if they want it different, it's up to them to jump in & change it, or try.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:17 PM

Typo Correction:
Nydcat's loss= Mudcat's loss

[and I should have also said -a personal loss for people who don't stay]

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:13 PM

BuckMulligan - as I was using the word "shame"="unfortunate"="sad"-Nydcat's loss.

And I don't agree that your supposition that "if they don't stay & participate, it's because they're not interested." is the only valid conclusion that exists.

As to your comment about my knowing other folks "of color" *,
yes, it's true that I do :o))

and I'm sure I'm not the only one here who does.

*your definition of this term is correct

While I've not "canvassed" people of color about joining Mudcat, I have suggested to folks I know [and folks who visited my website] to have a look/see here. Among the reasons why some people of color don't post on Mudcat, I've heard that part of it is the lack of access to home computers, and part of it is the unfamiliarity with the format [clicking on a 'thread' title to pull up a discussion you might be interested in]. And part of it is the since that this website is White people talking about "White music" ...

As to that view that this forum doesn't have topics that speak to us [us meaning 'African Americans'], I've responded that anyone including Guests can start new threads, but some people like to start threads, and others don't.

As you can see, now I don't mind starting new threads

;o}

but the first time I came to Mudcat-at the suggestion of a member who had visited my website-I saw the title listings and didn't see any topics that I recognized. I left this website and didn't return for two years. By then I had become more accustomed to using the Internet. I lurked here from time to time within a two month period, and finally got up my nerve to post to a discussion about the song 'kumbayah'. As a result of that post, some members posted on that thread encouraging me to join and I did so.

One of the lessons I got from that experience is that sometimes encouragement from veteran members will tip the decision as to whether a new poster [and others lurking] will join or not...

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:00 PM

What's interesting is that we are indeed discussing American traditional music here and in many other threads on the mudcat, so I don't understand the need for another forum. What's also interesting is how all the special interest groups (myself included) climb out of their shells to start up the "Hey, what about..." branches of the discussion, which gives it more perspective relative to genre, race, ethnicity, religion, brand of toothpaste, whatever.

BuckMulligan, I used to love to play Scott Joplin pieces on the piano, and wasn't good enough to do them fast, so I guess I played it the way he wanted it.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 08:48 PM

Barbara - Bluegrass as Bluegrass is a relatively young "tradition" - but I agree that it's an outgrowth of traditions (several). It's also true, IMO, that most bluegrass that most people (not aficiandos) are familiar with, is characterized by wicked fast fiddle, banjo, and mandolin licks. Sad, but there it is; folks feel the same thing about ragtime, which, according to Scott Joplin, "should never be played too fast." But people hear Max Morath, and it's off to the races.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 08:42 PM

For Gawd sakes.
If anyone wants to discuss, or criticize, or worship North American Traditional Music, h/she can do it right here.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 08:17 PM

Whole lotta stereotypes about bluegrass here, which by the way I consider an American traditional music. And we do "Vacant Chair" with our bluegrass band on our Civil War album, and it's not at "bluegrass tempo," by which I assume people not in the know mean fast. And we do three verses. Harrrrummmmph.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 08:12 PM

One has to surmise, Azizi, that if they don't stay & participate, it's because they're not interested. If they're not interested, why is it a "shame?" There can be no lack of places on the Web that cater to their interests. And I've no doubt that if any of them were to post something of interest to the community here, there'd be interest expressed. So I don't get what's shameful about it. Unfortunate perhaps, and something we'd maybe benefit from addressing, but shame? I don't think so. Surely you know more folks "of color" (which means only "not white" right? Not African, or African-American, or Latino, or Asian, just "not white" - a pretty big place to be from, no doubt, a majority in the world) who might be interested in the Mudcat; what has been their response when you've canvassed them about joining our community?

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: GLoux
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 08:10 PM

Azizi,

Please talk it up...

-Greg

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 08:01 PM

That said, imo, it would greatly enrich any Mudcat discussions about American Traditional Music if we {Mudcat} had more posters who are people of color.

In that respect, to paraphrase McGrath of Harlow's comment, I think more needs to be done than "start threads and they will come".

Actually, I would guess that more 'theys' than me and the few other members who acknowledge their non-White ancestry have lurked on Mudcat and either haven't posted [yet] or haven't stuck around.

That's a shame.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 08:01 PM

Guest, as everyone else has already said (how can I go wrong echoing such a groundswell) - start the threads you're interested in. Azizi can do it, Lizzie Cornish can do it (and it's fascinating to observe the different threads they start and the way those threads grow), I can do it, Shambles can do it.... you started this thread. Is it that you think there's no interest here? You may be right. So go start your own forum. You can do it for free on Yahoo, or Network54 (which works very well, I've had a board there for years), or any number of other venues. Post a link here and wherever else you think there might be interested parties, and watch for the traffic. If it doesn't materialized, then you're SOL and nobody wants to talk about your topic (or participate in a forum you run); c'est la vie. Go for it, I'll sign on either way.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 07:53 PM

Ditto what greg stephens 07 Jul 06 - 05:01 PM said at least the part about zydeco and {other}Black American music...

and his comment that "There's plenty of devotees of American music about here,you know, though obviously mixed in with a lot of other stuff"

Also ditto what McGrath of Harlow - PM 07 Jul 06 - 06:38 PM said

"Surely it's a case where "Build it and they will come" is appropriate. And here on the Mudcat is a good enough place to start building, I'd have thought. Start the threads and see what happens".

And also I agree that the referent "Guest" is too confusing since there's alot people who post as Guest on this forum. It would be nice if we could differentiate between without resorting to the addition of the posting date and time.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:38 PM

I don't think that drift within music threads about particular musical genres would be a particular problem. "That is, if 8 people want to discuss Gregorian chant, and someone keeps wanting to explain why Appalachian ballads are important, it gets awkward" - I can't see that happening.

Obviously if the talk gets into searching for origins, either of words or styles, it'd likely enough get into discussing roots back in the Old World, in Europe or in Africa. When people are interested in music and in songs, teasing out the sources is interesting. But there's no reqason why that kind of thing should need to divert discussions about the ins and outs of the music, and I don't think it does happen very often.

Surely it's a case where "Build it and they will come" is appropriate.    And here on the Mudcat is a good enough place to start building, I'd have thought. Start the threads and see what happens.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:34 PM

www.balladtree.com/links/trad.htm

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:21 PM

Yeah, Scoville, but they'll only let you sing two verses of any song, since they have to leave room for instrument solos. Two verses of "Vacant Chair" doesn't make any sense, so it does make any difference what lyrics you ding when you're doing bluegrass.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:13 PM

The reality of "The Vacant Chair" done Bluegrass is a bit disconcerting, too. I forget who I heard do it.

(actually, this doesn't speak directly to the issue of the thread, as 'style' and 'taste' can be debated separately.)

What would be a more likely problem is someone interrupting a discussion of "Sweet Betsy from Pike" and arguing that it is 'not really American', as it steals the tune from "Vilikens and his Dinah"...something like that. A huge amount of N. American music does have roots in the UK and Europe, so decisions would have to be made.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: Scoville
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 05:41 PM

I missed this the first time, too, but I'm watching it now.






I'm afraid the idea of "Vacant Chair" at bluegrass tempo is sort of painful . . .

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 05:08 PM

Hey, have you heard what Jimmy Sturr gets his annual polka Grammys for? He plays anything and everything with a polka beat, and gets a Grammy every year. I used to like what he used to do, but his polka ain't polka no more.
Too bad.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 05:03 PM

(in a Bluegrass discussion, this is not a problem, as they simply play anything at Bluegrass tempo and VOILA! It fits!...."The Vacant Chair" is a nice example)

Any forum trying to limit the discussion to just N. American would need to be edited.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 05:01 PM

WEll, I'm obsessed with cajun and zydeco for a start. Not to mention blues. And,even more obsessively, black American music that isnt blues. There's plenty of devotees of American music about here,you know, though obviously mixed in with a lot of other stuff. And GUEST, threadstarter, do use a name, like McGrath says. Then we know who we're talking to, there's too many plain GUESTS about, we lose track. You dont have to become a member if you dont want to, just put osme kind of name down.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 04:58 PM

Why, thank you, Shambles: ;>)


"everything" doesn't have to be...only when it is useful for a group to agree on a format. That is, if 8 people want to discuss Gregorian chant, and someone keeps wanting to explain why Appalachian ballads are important, it gets awkward.

I would suspect in Mudcat that an attempt to limit a discussion/thread to "North American trad" would eventually be infiltrated by those who want to show the 'roots' of that genré.....etc....

still, it's worth trying.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 04:56 PM

I looked in here thinking this was going to be "IT", or, at best, provide a link to it.

I guess I missed the question mark. Sorry.

Art

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: Zhenya
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 04:52 PM

GUEST - You can start a new group free through Yahoo, if you're willing to take on the task of moderator. I would find it interesting to be part of this type of discussion of North American music. I'm happy to find it on Mudcat too, but I think there's a place for specialized groups as well.

By the way, I'm a non-religious person of Jewish ancestry who, among other things, sings Sacred Harp hymns. For myself, I think of it as one more aspect of traditional music, (or you could say, North American traditional music!) not as a religious activity, although some people I sing with do it from a religious perspective, which is fine with me. I certainly understand the distinction you're making above, although I'm not familiar with "Chautauqua" that you mention.

I should add that I also enjoy much Anglo-Celtic based music, but I have other interests as well, and to indulge those, would like to find exactly the kind of forum you're suggesting. If you do start or find this type of forum, let us know!

Zhenya

P.S. I'm not volunteering to start it myself, as I have no concept of how time-consuming this would be, and I'm already spread very thin in terms of my schedule. Perhaps someone who's been involved with this type of thing could advise on this issue, as perhaps it isn't really as daunting as I'm thinking. (Or then again, maybe it's worse...!)

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 04:40 PM

Why does everything have to be compartmentalized?

Bill D will explain.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 03:38 PM

I'd agree that there could be more discussion of North American traditional music here (though rec.music.country.old-time on Usenet covers a lot of what GUEST wants).

One way of getting a special forum might be if some record label or distributor would sponsor it - for Scottish trad, www dot footstompin dot com does a good job with the forum on their site, isn't there a comparable firm in the US?

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 03:13 PM

Well, I'd like to see all that North American Traditional stuff discussed here. Why not? Why start a new forum to discuss all that? Why does everything have to be compartmentalized?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 02:59 PM

Start up those threads you think are missing and see what happens, GUEST, whoever-you-are. Preferably using a GUEST or member name.

I've certainly seen a good few discussions about various forms of traditional American music, over the years, even including some about the various kinds of imported music you referred to, such as Klezmer and polkas, which do tend to be more neglected than say old timey. It'd be great to see more.

I can't reeally see why the presence of other threads about related forms of music should get in the way of that.

Perhaps a few more specific prefixes would help.

I agree that it is irritating when people seem to think that folk music is just about "Anglo-Celtic" music and modern songsters. And my impression is that there are a lot of people already out there in Mudcat Land who would agree about that.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 02:35 PM

Hi pattyClink,

I'm not talking about universal, actually. Just music that has become indigenous to North America that isn't dominated by the Anglo-Celtic stuff.

The music side of this forum is pretty much dominated by British posters now, and American posters whose interests run along the lines I mentioned above: contemporary acoustic (that is my nice way of saying the urban, often academic based "folk revival" music and it's popular music descendants like Dylan, Baez, etc).

Now don't get me wrong, it isn't that popular artists shouldn't or wouldn't be discussed there. I'm crazy about the Dixie Chicks and Ricky Scaggs, for instance.

But I am saying there is no place online to discuss North American traditional music & music cultures.

It couldn't happen here at Mudcat, because it is already dominated by the Anglo Celtic & contemporary stuff. That's fine. Mudcat is a great place to do that. I started this thread as an aside to the one I linked to at the top. North American traditional music rarely gets discussed at Mudcat, because it isn't a place conducive to the discussion. I'm pining for a more limited forum, not a more universal one like Mudcat.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 02:12 PM

There is a need guest - perhaps you need to start one. Or maybe it's there and we just don't know about it.

As far as the religion goes. I can kinda see your point. I love old gospel music as long as someone isn't telling me WHY I should be singing it. Let's talk about the music - not the theology. Of course IF I want to talk theology the banjo player in my trio is a professor - he has a doctorate.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: pattyClink
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 02:11 PM

Frank, I'm glad your excellent post from the other thread (near the end) got refreshed, I had not seen it before. It is indeed sad that our whole song culture has become performer/audience ego trips instead of person-to-person song sharing.

Threadstarter, the reason Mudcat is great is because all those subjects you mention are fair game here. Unfortunately musicians do specialize in genres quite a bit, and a polka specialist may not care to come here and discuss other genres, for example--too busy driving to the next fesival or practicing a new tune.

I hope you find your universal forum, but meanwhile you will find a lot of good stuff here.

Subject: RE: An American Traditional Music Forum?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 02:08 PM

Sorry Frank, I should have explained that better. I don't mean exclude religious music (I did say klezmer & gospel!), I meant in the Chautauqua sense. My understanding of the Chautauqua was it was a Christian educational movement. I wouldn't want to limit a North American traditional music forum to Christians, and I wouldn't want to make it about religion. Though I would most certainly include religious music!

Does that make sense?