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Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals

BuckMulligan 08 Jul 06 - 08:57 PM
skipy 08 Jul 06 - 09:06 PM
Alba 08 Jul 06 - 09:11 PM
wysiwyg 08 Jul 06 - 09:18 PM
Uncle_DaveO 08 Jul 06 - 09:26 PM
Azizi 08 Jul 06 - 09:34 PM
Azizi 08 Jul 06 - 09:39 PM
Azizi 08 Jul 06 - 09:41 PM
Leadfingers 08 Jul 06 - 09:44 PM
BuckMulligan 08 Jul 06 - 10:15 PM
katlaughing 08 Jul 06 - 10:39 PM
wysiwyg 08 Jul 06 - 10:53 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 08 Jul 06 - 10:53 PM
catspaw49 08 Jul 06 - 10:54 PM
katlaughing 08 Jul 06 - 11:07 PM
jeffp 08 Jul 06 - 11:27 PM
Big Mick 08 Jul 06 - 11:37 PM
michaelr 08 Jul 06 - 11:46 PM
Georgiansilver 09 Jul 06 - 03:22 AM
Dave Hanson 09 Jul 06 - 03:42 AM
John MacKenzie 09 Jul 06 - 04:07 AM
Dave Hanson 09 Jul 06 - 05:37 AM
George Papavgeris 09 Jul 06 - 05:59 AM
Morticia 09 Jul 06 - 06:05 AM
The Shambles 09 Jul 06 - 06:57 AM
The Shambles 09 Jul 06 - 07:05 AM
John MacKenzie 09 Jul 06 - 07:11 AM
The Shambles 09 Jul 06 - 07:26 AM
Azizi 09 Jul 06 - 07:31 AM
John MacKenzie 09 Jul 06 - 07:44 AM
Alba 09 Jul 06 - 08:02 AM
BuckMulligan 09 Jul 06 - 08:24 AM
Dave Hanson 09 Jul 06 - 09:57 AM
BuckMulligan 09 Jul 06 - 09:58 AM
Amos 09 Jul 06 - 10:01 AM
Alice 09 Jul 06 - 10:10 AM
Dave Hanson 09 Jul 06 - 10:43 AM
Jeri 09 Jul 06 - 10:56 AM
dick greenhaus 09 Jul 06 - 11:10 AM
The Shambles 09 Jul 06 - 12:49 PM
Ernest 09 Jul 06 - 01:04 PM
John MacKenzie 09 Jul 06 - 01:11 PM
kendall 09 Jul 06 - 01:20 PM
Azizi 09 Jul 06 - 01:26 PM
The Shambles 09 Jul 06 - 01:45 PM
John MacKenzie 09 Jul 06 - 01:55 PM
katlaughing 09 Jul 06 - 02:39 PM
wysiwyg 09 Jul 06 - 02:42 PM
Amos 09 Jul 06 - 03:03 PM
Peace 09 Jul 06 - 03:29 PM
open mike 09 Jul 06 - 03:49 PM
John MacKenzie 09 Jul 06 - 04:12 PM
BuckMulligan 09 Jul 06 - 06:14 PM
John MacKenzie 09 Jul 06 - 06:19 PM
Georgiansilver 09 Jul 06 - 06:28 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 09 Jul 06 - 06:31 PM
The Shambles 10 Jul 06 - 03:10 AM
catspaw49 10 Jul 06 - 03:16 AM
Dave Hanson 10 Jul 06 - 04:33 AM
The Shambles 10 Jul 06 - 07:31 AM
kendall 10 Jul 06 - 07:45 AM
catspaw49 10 Jul 06 - 10:10 AM
The Shambles 10 Jul 06 - 11:33 AM
John MacKenzie 10 Jul 06 - 11:37 AM
Alba 10 Jul 06 - 11:58 AM
kendall 10 Jul 06 - 12:11 PM
John MacKenzie 10 Jul 06 - 01:43 PM
Alba 10 Jul 06 - 02:04 PM
The Shambles 13 Jul 06 - 01:57 PM
MMario 13 Jul 06 - 02:06 PM
BuckMulligan 13 Jul 06 - 02:40 PM
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Subject: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 08:57 PM

Somewhere in the "An American Traditional Music Forum?" thread, Azizi offered "it would benefit Mudcat to go 'meta' and engage in periodic if not ongoing evaluation as a means of ensuring that we are doing the best we can to meet the organization's [the community's stated goals..."

I think that's a dandy idea.

I say we are.

Now, what are "the organization's [the community's stated goals..."???


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: skipy
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 09:06 PM

?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Alba
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 09:11 PM

????


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 09:18 PM

It's whatever Max wants it to be and whatever we make from that. As I've written about extensively in the past, there is no "we" at Mudcat. On any given day, it's whoever is here. Too static to call a "we." And thus, not really a structure that can engage in strategic planning. Perhaps it's actually a higher order of community than that.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 09:26 PM

Too static to call a "we."

Susan, I THINK the above contradicts what the rest of your post said. Mudcat membership and participation are hardly static at all. I think your word should be "dynamic", or "fluid".

Otherwise, I agree with what seems your clear intent.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 09:34 PM

Hey, Buck!

I guess you couldn't have corrected my parenthesis when you quoted me. Though I wish you had. It makes it seems that I don't think before I hit the submit button.

But I do-think that is.

I thought about that comment you quoted after I posted it. And if I could edit my post-aside from that typo-I would have used the word 'mission' instead of "goals".

As to what this forum's mission is, here's some excerpts from our terribly convoluted FAQ page:

"The Mudcat Cafe is a music discussion forum. Other activities are permitted and encouraged, but the primary focus of the Forum is music."

"The thread categories are an attempt to make some sense our of our discussion, but there are no solid rules regarding their use. The "BS" category seems to be misunderstood - that category is for chit-chat and goofing off, and you should not use the "BS" category if your thread has to do with music or things related to music. The "BS" tag is supposed to warn off those of us who don't have time or interest for that sort of thing. "BS" is not a lesser form of communication, but it is placed at the bottom of the Forum Menu because we want to make our music information easier for visitors to find."

"No reference to da blues in the introduction? I know folk is the overwhelming focus, but the heading at the top of the page does say: "A magazine dedicated to blues and folk music." "

"It's a wonderful thing that our Forum is a spontaneous free-for-all, no-holds-barred bull session. However, it is also a very valuable information resource for those who love folk music, and it's good for all of us to do our best to do what we can to make the Forum the extraordinary resource it can be."

thread.cfm?threadid=19340#196922

I believe that most-if not all-of these comments I quoted were made by Joe Offer.

****

If someone were to ask me what Mudcat is about, my sense is that the primary mission of this forum is something like "to provide opportunites to share & discuss information and examples of folk & blues music.

And perhaps the secondary mission of this forum is
"to provide emotional support for members and guests". And the third mission of the forum is "to provide opportuniites for witty and/or intellectual discussion about music related and non-music related topics."

Of course, all of this is imho.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 09:39 PM

I do understand the point about "we". [that this is Max's website and he determines what this site is about].

But if consider ourselves members of an organization, or community [which in the sense I'm using both words mean the same to me], then it would seem to me that it would be incumbent on us to know what the organization or community is about.

I'm assuming that Mudcat's mission or goals or reason for being is stated clearly somewhere. If it isn't, imho, it should be.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 09:41 PM

Correction, this quote was not from Joe Offer:

"No reference to da blues in the introduction? I know folk is the overwhelming focus, but the heading at the top of the page does say: "A magazine dedicated to blues and folk music." "


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 09:44 PM

I would like to add to that the idea that Mudcat promotes Folk and Blues afficionados meeting up , to sing and play together and pass on ideas about Folk and Blues outside the forum itself !


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 10:15 PM

Azizi - I thought it would be better to quote you, because if I edited your words, then I'd be putting up what I thought you meant, instead of what you said. Not my job. I don't disagree with much you've said except the "emotional support" stuff (sure that happens, but so does sniping and whining and bitching, and those probably aren't what Max had in mind). Also seriously doubt that organization and community are interchangeable terms. Most of the communities I know - especially online communities - are far from organized. They just are; and they are what they are (however counterproductive you think that may be). I don't see that Mudcat is aimed at making things happen; I see it as aimed at letting things happen, providing a medium for some things to happen. Not all of them particularly beneficial, but that's true of any community.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 10:39 PM

Mudcat is what it is, which may be different on any given day. Let it be.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 10:53 PM

DaveO-- yeah, good catch. Send me a nap and a good cuppa coffee, OK?

~S~


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 10:53 PM

Kat,

That's beautiful! Sounds a lot like me. ;-) And it's hittin' the old nail right on the proverbial head. "Is what is!!"

Love,

Art


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 10:54 PM

Well katmyluv, that pretty well nailed it. On any given day the tenor of this place is from the members posting making it at turns informative, boring, humorous, angry, and about everything else. The same is true for some kind of mission statement. About as close as Max ever comes is a simple rough guideline........talk and be nice.

All of that may be subject to change in some upcoming revisions of the way the'Cat works and policy.

It is what it is and when it isn't it will be different until it becomes what it is again. Try to relax. Know where your towel is. Don't Panic.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 11:07 PM

So, Fine Art, ya think I've been a good "student?!" Yippee! I finally learned that one!:-)

Thanks, Spaw, that's exactly what I meant, too.

luvya...both o'youse...kat


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: jeffp
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 11:27 PM

Mudcat is a community. It has its good times and bad times. It has people who like each other and people who don't like each other. At any given time there are conversations about nearly anything under the sun. The intended common ground is a love of folk and blues music but I suspect not all have that love. No matter. This community does pull together when necessary, as witness the thread about my wife's death. (By the way, the memorial service is tomorrow and I'll think I'll survive it.) I remember when Spaw's life was in jeopardy, and Barry Finn's as well. Kendall's cancer, and many others I'm too tired to remember.

It's a great place from where I stand.

I'm really glad to be a part of it.

Jeff


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 11:37 PM

Why do I smell a thread of the "What is folk music?" dimension? Just hop on and enjoy the ride. As kat said so well, it just is. Leave it alone.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: michaelr
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 11:46 PM

Yes! I for one am sick and tired of repetitive threads trying to whip the Cat into some shape or other. Doesn't work with regular cats, and neither with Mudcat.

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 03:22 AM

As with any other forum, the Cat allows education and personal development for those who wish to use it in that way. As with all societies and groups, not everyone thinks with the same framework or mechanisms and 'other' behaviours and situations arise. I believe that the site runs regularly well and that occasionally when things are not running so well, the team attempt to make corrections which do not always draw approval from everyone. Such is the nature of the beast. You can't control it so live with it or leave it.
Best wishes, Mike.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 03:42 AM

Mudcat is The Mudcat, this is fine by me, and from the opening post " go meta " what the fuck does ' meta ' mean ?

eric


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 04:07 AM

Why must some people 'organise'? Take the Mudcat at face value, if you want rules join the army.
I've had this all my life, people try to 'pigeon hole' you, and if you don't fit one of their 'categories' you're out!
NOBODY has the right to impose rules, mission statements or any other such organisational crap on anybody else.
Please leave the site as it is, and them as can't live without rules best go look elsewhere for their metaphorical straight jacket.
People who need rules are insecure people, I'm OK thanks!
Giok


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 05:37 AM

Well sai Giok, if you want rules try the BBC Radio 2 Folk and Roots message board, it's ruled and organized to death.

The Mudcat is OK as it is. Mission statements, stated goals, for fucks sake, the mind boggles.

eric


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 05:59 AM

Sorry to be pedantic, but once more I can see us going round in circles because of an important semantic difference:

Mudcat the Forum (website, message board call it what you will, the thing you log into) is a tool, and clearly it belongs to Max. It has a purpose - stated in the FAQs as quoted above.

Mudcat the Community (the collection of people who, using this tool as the connector, meet virtually or physically to discuss folk music - and not only that - or to exchange ideas, thoughts, questions and answers; who become friends or enemies, marrying or befriending each other or never speaking to each other as the case might be) are just as katlaughing and Giok say: A community; it is what it is; it is fluid, changing all the time, and open to the vagaries of human communication and whim.

Mudcat the Forum has expenses and a few rules of operation. It is lightly moderated.

Mudcat the Community has no agreed rules of behaviour or membership other than those which apply to any human community, such as (un)common sense and ethics. But the understanding of these varies enormously, as we all know and have seend demonstrated on these pages.

Mudcat the Forum (and Max) deserve our gratitude as enablers.

Mudcat the Community deserves to be celebrated, because it manages to survive and be a useful source despite (because of?) the diversity of its membership in everything including manners and behaviours.

In discussion the two, or their characteristics (rules etc) should not be mixed.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Morticia
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 06:05 AM

I have no idea what going Meta is, either.......nor do I care for the concept of a 'mission statement', except for the fact that if Max reads that, I can hear him wetting himself laughing from here, and everyone needs a good laugh.

Give it up guys, trying to organise our little band is like trying to herd cats, it will only annoy you and the cats.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 06:57 AM

The Mudcat Cafe can be anything that its owner wants it to be.

The Mudcat Discussion Forum is what the posters want it to be - simply a soapbox for our views etc.

When they are allowed by certain fellow posters. Who seem to think that our forum's use as a soapbox - is something that must be prevented...................

fRoots message board – do you post?

fRoots message board

Well, when Lizzie posted her first message a second time in the same thread, and Shambles started another one of his soapbox crusades, it was time to close that thread.
Time to close this one, too.
Drop it, Shambles. If you want to have a civil discussion of the fRoots forum, do it in a week or so, when the bad taste of today's threads dies down.
-Joe Offer-


Perhaps it is now time that Joe Offer and his anonymous friends will allow our forum to discuss this music related subject and use the links provided in the original (now closed) thread?
Perhaps these links (which in a closed thread are useless) can be provided elsewhere on The Mudcat? Or easier still – the thread could be re-opened? As there was no reason for the original thread music related thread to be first relegated to the BS and subsequently closed.

If threads (and posts) judged to be in bad taste are to be automatically subject to imposed censorship actions on our forum – there is little hope for many of our threads. But who should be the judge of what is or is not bad taste? Perhaps this can be left for posters to decide simply by posting to a thread or ignoring it?

At this point - perhaps there could be some benefit in a public statement from Max about what our forum is. And if it has not changed - some measures to ensure that its stated goals are not limited by the imposed personal tastes of a few posters.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 07:05 AM

fRoots message board


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 07:11 AM


Read the last post again Roger

G


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 07:26 AM

Give it up guys, trying to organise our little band is like trying to herd cats, it will only annoy you and the cats.

Meow.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 07:31 AM

To those who wish to know "meta" is American slang that short for "metaphysical".

There's a number of meanings for the word metaphysical-but I meant by it the core reality; the integral or underlying reason or reasons for what is.

And as to this thread, I feel the need to ask these core questions [with my responses] and make some other comments"

Are all people the same? No! And thank God for that.

Do I want all people to be the same here on Mudcat or elsewhere?
No! That would go against my core beliefs, not to mention be awfully boring, and a truly pointless desire since-imo- it aint never gonna happen here or anywhere else.

Did I start this thread? No!

Did I ask this threadstarter to start this thread with or without my quote? No!

Did I know beforehand that this threadstarter was going to start this thread with or without my quote? No!

Do I believe that sometimes it is helpful for individuals and for groups [communities; organizations] to stand back and reflect on where they are and where they're going vis a vis some marker [be it a stated goal or goals, mission, or a sense of what that individual or group set out to do]- Yes!

Did I formally or informally call on Mudcat[the community as per the description in George Papavgeris' 09 Jul 06 - 05:59 AM post] to enter into such a reflection? No!

However, do I say more power to those who want to do so publicly and do so with respect for others and the rules of this site [since, it's my my sense that there are a few rules]? Yes!

****

For the record, I'm not interested in "going meta" at this place and in this time, any more than I have done so already.

I recognize the fact that it is bothersome to some that I 'went meta' about Mudcat to the extent that I've done so in this thread [again to some extent as a result of reading the first post which quoted me]. I'm sorry about that, but I still believe I am within my rights to express myself in this manner [which is after all a part of my personality].

And if that's too metaphysical for some, well so be it.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 07:44 AM

Sorry Azizi but that made absolutely no sense whatsoever to me.
Metaphysical the correct definition!
G


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Alba
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 08:02 AM

Ah...my ???? has disappeared.

This is a Shambalistic topic.
Had enough of this one to last a Lifetime on the Mudcat.

This sort of nonsense me think of that old saying, with a bit of a tweek....

if it ain't broke....let's fix it until it is!...

Out of here
J


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 08:24 AM

To clarify for anyone who is confused, Azizi certainly did not start this thread, I did, with no knowledge or permission on her part. She raised a worthwhile point (do "we" think the Mudcat community is doing its best to serve its "stated goals.") and she suggested "we" evaluate ourselves. That's exactly what's been happening in this thread - so far - "we" have decided that "it is what it is" (which was a statement of mine to which Azizi took exception) is about as close as we can come to a statement of "goals" and that "we" are doing just fine in our progress toward achieving that "is-ness." I'd say a successful thread, served its purpose, nobody got pissed off, what's not to love?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 09:57 AM

Wrong again Buck, you pissed off a few people, what a completely inane, vaccuous and pointless thread this was.

The Mudcat is doing good as it is, why are you trying to do whatever it is you are trying ?

Someone once stated that ' folk music must progress to survive ' and someone else said " well it's done alright for several hundred years on it's own " why the need for progress now ?

eric


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 09:58 AM

hardly pointless, eric - you did however succeed in missing the point.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 10:01 AM

"Meta" is not slang for metaphysical, in the sense used here. It is the prefix that is found in metaphysical meaning "above" or "beyond".

"Something on an abstraction level higher than the current. To go meta means to take a step back and look at the bigger picture - which can be done indefinitely in an arbitrary number of ways."
www.nada.kth.se/~asa/Game/Dragons/jargon.html

A prefix used in computer science meaning "relating to" or "based on." For example, a metadirectory would be a directory relating to, or about directories. More simply put, a directory of directories.
www.scotsmist.co.uk/glossary_m.html

A prefix meaning "information about".
www.armandproductions.com/Glossary.html

prefix referring to the hind part of a compound structure such as the thorax or tarsus.
home.planet.nl/~herwa073/phasmida/glossary.htm

In epistemology the prefix meta- is used to mean about (its own category). For example, metadata is data about data (who has produced it, when, what format the data is in and so on). Similarly, meta-memory in psychology means an individual's intuition about whether or not they would remember something if they concentrated on recalling it. Any subject can be said to have a meta-theory, which is the theoretical consideration of its foundations and methods.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta-


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Alice
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 10:10 AM

No offense intended, just my point of view.... I'm tired of people wanting everything to have a "mission". When I see "mission statement" I cringe at the cult-like following of having to right a "mission statement" for every group, endeavor, business, etc. This phrase became very popular in marketing seminars, Tony Robbins type guru businesses, that proliferated in the 90's. Really, I don't mean to offend, but it rubs me the wrong way to see everyone following this blueprint idea of community and mission.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 10:43 AM

Amos, do you think anyone gives what a fuck what ' meta ' means ?

eric


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 10:56 AM

Some people need to organize, and some people love anarchy. In most cases, I'm one of the latter.

I used to supervise an office full of people. On one occasion, I supervised a woman who supervized a couple of other people. One of these people was having a very hard time, because she needed to have rigid rules and complete control, and was telling him how to do every little thing. She eventually found another job where her organizational skills would be a benefit, but she'd done some damage and cowed the guy. He came to me with every little problem and asked what to do. The first time I answered, "It's YOUR program - what do you think you should do?" he was very uncomfortable, because he was afraid of giving the wrong answer. Time passed, and I supported him. I vetoed only the truly harmful ideas, and the ones I simply didn't like I still did everything I could to help him with. He frequently succeded with the ideas I didn't like as the ones I did, and I learned something. Hopefully, he's off somewhere giving other people chances to shine.

The point is that people who like organization frequently see the lack of concrete stucture - detailed rules, mission statements, etc. - as an oversight, an accident, and a void to be filled. In my case, in that office, that's exactly how I wanted it. I believe it's how Max wants Mudcat to be, too. It's in the chaos, the unformed 'anything-could-happen', with all of its nebulous space between the constantly moving and changing points of 'what is', that magic happens.

Plus, people are never going to agree on anything around here. Especially those who don't even want to discuss this or haven't arrived yet.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:10 AM

I never did see a Cafe that was particularly organized. Or one with a mission, either.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 12:49 PM

I believe it's how Max wants Mudcat to be, too. It's in the chaos, the unformed 'anything-could-happen', with all of its nebulous space between the constantly moving and changing points of 'what is', that magic happens.

You may believe that. If it is the case - Max now has a strange way of enabling this 'anything could happen' concept. By encouraging those who do not share this view, to order and allow only what is to their taste to happen, by the imposition of many forms of censorship action.

The point is that things have changed to where what you or I may welcome as 'magic' are now actively prevented on our forum. That - we are now told (by those that support this) is how Max wants our forum to be........ Is it?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Ernest
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 01:04 PM

Careful: old joke - handle with care!

Philosophy: Trying to find a black cat in a dark room

Metaphsics: Trying to find a black cat that isn`t there in a dark room

Religion: Trying to find a black cat that isn`t there in a dark room, tha suddenly crying "I`ve got her".

Fits in beautifully.

Best
Ernest


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 01:11 PM

It's funny how these boring old refrains keep coming back to haunt us. Reminds me of a song by Joe Pasquale.

In it's entirity:
------------------------------...
I know a song that'll get on your nerves
get on your nerves
get on your nerves
I know a song that'll get on your nerves
get, get, get on your nerves


I think that says it all!

Giok


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 01:20 PM

Here we go agaihn...crap.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 01:26 PM

I'm taking the liberty to repost a comment I just read from a Mudcat archived thread. A link to that thread was posted as suggested reading in a current thread.

I believe that this reposted comment is relevant to this discussion. Others may disagree. Such is life...

Hopefully, sharing this post without the original poster's prior permission is not against any forum 'rules'.

If it is, I sincerely apologize.

****

Subject: RE: Mudcat jargon and 'inside' jokes
From: Jack (Who is called Jack) - PM
Date: 18 Sep 99 - 05:52 PM

At the risk of being too serious about this, groups like the mudcat run a serious risk of becoming insular and rigid. The small group social dynamics, long term freindships, the fuzzy line between the 'business & purpose' aspects and the 'pleasure and socal' aspects of the group, and the high passions associated with a group like this make it particularly vulnerable. In this regard the Mudcat is very much like small churches or volunteer community service groups. Over time they develop an implied heirarchy with an inner circle and an outer circle. And while such a group may be very inclusive with regard to the fringe, they may not be very inclusive with regard to the inner circle and its sense of ownership.
Now I don't necessarily think that the Cat is at that point, but occasionally I hear things that raise my concern. Not only the inside jokes and vernacular, but also the strength of reaction to some of Max's changes, expressed worries that too many 'newcomers' would 'ruin the special community here', a sense of US v. THEM with respect to those who don't understand or appreciate folk and traditional like WE do.

As much as I would like to believe that such could happen to us, my personal experience seeing it happen in more than one organization tells me otherwise. The dynamics are there and it is incumbent upon us to resist them, and to always remember that Mudcat isn't about us and for us, its about folk and traditional music and for folk and tradtional music.

Again, I think the cat is in a good place overall, but it never hurts to keep in mind what can happen if we are not careful.

Best Regards

Jack

(Closing Soapbox program now)

thread.cfm?threadid=13794


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 01:45 PM

Mudcat the Community deserves to be celebrated, because it manages to survive and be a useful source despite (because of?) the diversity of its membership in everything including manners and behaviours.

The use of the word 'community' in this context is a nonsense. For posters here may have many things in common. They may express concerns and even arrange to meet up on a regular basis - but we do not all have to live in the same place or live together and that distinction - is the main advantage of being online. The Mudcat Discussion Forum is not a community in that conventional sense of the word.

An 'online' community the posters to our forum may be but I am not sure how this term can be defined or of what use this can be. For this invites everyone to be a part of this 'online community'. Which remains a difficult concept for many to grasp.

For many people a community is really defined as a safe gathering of like-minded people and cemented together mainly by who is excluded from it. Where an online (inclusive) community and one that is aware of its limitations - presents us all with an opportunity that can only be limited by its perception as a conventional community.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 01:55 PM

People who stick their heads above the parapet and want to change or impose rules, usually do so because they want rules to suit their agenda, and/or they wish to boost their role in the community/organisation/cyber club.
Shambles was very fond of quoting a post from Max from about 5/6 years ago which said words to the effect, 'As for the rules don't sweat because there are none', I wonder if he would care to quote it again in this thread?
Giok


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 02:39 PM

Links, instead of reposting lengthy items and taking up more space, would suffice.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 02:42 PM

Well, it's mission was "to explore new worlds, and go boldly where no man has gone before--" but that was just the first 5 years.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 03:03 PM

Eric:

It is obvious that you do not. But you are not all viewpoints. Among other viewpoints there are at least three who were interested in the meaning and use of the prefix. So, yes, I do. As long as you are using the term "give a fuck" figuratively. If you are using it literally, I rather think not.

A


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 03:29 PM

Interesting thing I came across years ago from a university professor who taught would-be teachers 'teaching techniques'. It was for a social studies class--time of about 40 minutes.

Class was divided into three groups of ten each. Group 1 represented the Democratic form of government. Group 2 had a Ruling Council of Three, and Group three was a Dictatorship led by One Person. The deal was to take three pieces of 8 1/2" x 11" paper and give one to each group. Each group had to make a paper airplane and the three planes would be flown in the hallway to see whose went the furthest. Anyway . . . .

Group 1 (the Democracy) had to vote on each fold that was put in the paper and agree by majority vote. Group 2 (Ruling Council of Three) had to have each fold agreed to by the Ruling Council of Three with or without input from the other seven kids. Group3 (Dictatorship) had on student make the plane and the others watch.

As it worked out, the Dictatorship plane flew the furthest, followed by the Democracy then the Ruling Council planes. (That was all upto chance.)

In post flight discussion, the students reached the following conclusions about the three forms of government: a) Yes, the dictator's plane flew the furthest, but the other nine kids were bored spitless. The Ruling Council of Three had fun--but the other seven kids in that group didn't. The Democracy group thought it was OK because they all got to participate.

There is no moral to the above story.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

I heard a teacher say one day that it would be great to organize kids' recesses for them. My immediate thought was, "If you organize their play time for them, how will they ever learn to organize it for themselves."

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

"The trouble with organizing a thing is that pretty soon folks get to paying more attention to the organization than to what they're organized for."

Laura Ingalls Wilder

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

All right everyone, line up alphabetically according to your height.

Casey Stengel


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: open mike
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 03:49 PM

MUSIC content related to that song posted at 1:11 pm by Giok
"I know a song that'll get on your nerves"
seems as if it would be sung to the tune of
Buffalo Gals won't you come out tonight....
and dance by the light of the moon."

herding cats http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7635587316493151891
or slugs (could not find an action shot of this)
or walking stick insects--http://home.planet.nl/~herwa073/phasmida/
all are past times that might be avoided

to retain your sanity and that of those around you


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 04:12 PM

That's the tune right enough OM
G.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 06:14 PM

I consider that "my work here is done" in the classic B-movie phrase. For those who thought I was trying to impose order or rules, please take the trouble to re-read my opening post, and its sources. My point was, and is, and ever shall be, just as most herein have posted (and as I posted in the thread opener, for those who care to find it): "it is what it is" - the "point" of mudcat is not a destination, it's the journey.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 06:19 PM

It is better to travel hopefully than to arrive!


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 06:28 PM

If your hopes are realised when you arrive...then what....may be even better than hoped for.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 06:31 PM

One of the stated aims is on the opening website page.

"To make sure that the spirit and knowledge of traditional music be passed down from generation to generation"

Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 03:10 AM

It is better to travel hopefully than to arrive!

It is also better to travel without one's fellow passengers feeling they have some right to throw you off the bus.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 03:16 AM

It is better to travel hopefully than to arrive!

It is also better to travel without one's fellow passengers feeling they have some right to throw you off the bus

It is also better to travel without one of your fellow passengers acting like a twit all the time and boring the entire bus with his paranoid bullshit.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 04:33 AM

And always remember, ' it's better to have loved and lost. '

eric


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 07:31 AM

It is also better to travel without one of your fellow passengers acting like a twit all the time and boring the entire bus with his paranoid bullshit.

Thanks. I can always rely on you to demonstrate my point.

If you do not wish to be bored (or worse) by your fellow travellers - you are always welcome to get off the bus yourself. Perhaps it would be a good idea if you now did this - rather than feel you have some right to judge the right of others to travel as they wish....?

Mudcat the Community deserves to be celebrated, because it manages to survive and be a useful source despite (because of?) the diversity of its membership in everything including manners and behaviours.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 07:45 AM

The Mudcat community is just like any other community. There are those who seem to have all the answers, who seem to be in some sort of "inner circle", and there are those who just need to stir the pot and keep old bullshit going.

It seems to me that any community has "clans" made up of like minded folks who agree on most things, yet they don't start endless wars over nothing. Then there are those who come across as social misfits who could start a row in an empty house. These are the ones who are on the outside because of THEIR behavior, yet, they are blind to that fact, and they must blame someone else to avoid looking at their own crap.

rant over.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 10:10 AM

Ya' know Roger, I always wonder that you don't see we ALL have the right to judge others and even if we don't, we still do it all the time......yourself included! I mean, read your own posts.......You just made some value judgements including one about me. Its a natural act.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 11:33 AM

Ya' know Roger, I always wonder that you don't see we ALL have the right to judge others and even if we don't, we still do it all the time......yourself included! I mean, read your own posts.......You just made some value judgements including one about me. Its a natural act.

The idea is now encouraged that it is acceptable to post only to moan about and make personal judgements of your fellow posters and in the expectation that it is they who should leave because of your public judgement of their worth.

When the only option open on any form of public transport - if you judge your fellow travellers not to your taste - is for you to get off the bus.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 11:37 AM

Nobody forced you to get ON the bus in the first place!
G.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Alba
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 11:58 AM

Ah I have a feeling of Deja Vu....
Kind of like....


"It seems to me I've heard that song before
It's from an old familiar score
I know it well, that melody"


I remember a Public Service Commercial in Scotland, the subject is unimportant but one of the Lines that was said was "That's handy, open Windae"....seems any open window brings about a perceived oppertunity for certain Folks to vomit up and rehash what was has already been 'brought up' again and again and again with ZERO result! Damn but it gets to be tedious seeing the same BLAH after 1,000 times of saying that BLAH 1,000 ways.

MAX please come tell us what you are going to be changing here on Your Site, seems some Folk are biting at the bit and waiting to see if you have followed "Their" particular vision (LOL). So Max can you make your announcement....Sooooon....pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze:)!


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:11 PM

I rest my case. There are none so blind etc.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:43 PM

What is there to change Jude. It's not so bad with less aggro at the moment, it will come back again fear not, and the gripes will start all over again, so why worry.
My motto in life is this.

You die if you worry, you die if you don't worry.
So why worry?


Giok

Here's tae us wha's like us?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: Alba
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 02:04 PM

* smile*
Och Giok. Am as happy wi this place jist as it is...always huv been.
I wiz jist trying to accomodate those Folk that seem to want to run the Mudcat and whip it into shape on Max's behalf..:)
As Kendall says "There are none so blind"

...and your seldom wrang but yir right again Mr.Mac Kenzie.... "Here's tae us wha's like us"

There will always be Folk that want to fix something that is not broken or worse, organise something that is no theirs tae organise!
Maybe it is ego thing, maybe it's attention seeking..who knows, who cares...from the time you understand that kind of thinking, your thinking like that. Pass.
Power Trips are just that...Trips...whenever someone goes away on a wee Trip they always have tae come back.
I never been tae 'Power' masel, couldnae even tell yi where it is but I hope I get a stock a rock and postcard fae there sometime...*giggle*

;>)
Jude


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 01:57 PM

I believe that the site runs regularly well and that occasionally when things are not running so well, the team attempt to make corrections which do not always draw approval from everyone. Such is the nature of the beast. You can't control it so live with it or leave it.

So why then have this team at all?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: MMario
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 02:06 PM

different day, different title - same old qoutes. Same insistence that a private, privately run site is in actuality a public resource; which it is not; same insistence that he doesn't want to tell anyone what to do, though he constantly does.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat's 'Stated' Goals
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 02:40 PM

and apparently hasn't noticed that the thread is "over."


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