Audiences for folk?

Subject: Audiences for folk?
From: GUEST,joaniecrumpet
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 04:43 AM

I posted this on a related thread and realised it was really atopic in itself:

"Not to disappear too far up my own bumhole, but there's a fundamental marketing theory about how many times someone needs to see an advert or be exposed to a product before they make a purchasing decision. Now, this figure varies depending whether the product is completely new to the purchaser or whether they have some familiarity with it, but generally speaking, people need to be exposed to it between three and seven times before they'll make a decision about whether to buy it. The cost of the product usually is a factor as well; ie, a festival ticket will take more repeat exposure than a gig ticket. This means that the flyers, the posters, the exit-leafleting, the repeat adverts in magazines, the artist reviews in the press, the websites and even the word-of-mouth are all contributing to that eventual purchasing decision. I'm sure this post will inspire backlash from some of the grass-roots promoters, but folk is part of a wider industry that works within certain parameters, and purchasing is based on product and brand awareness. As I said earlier, you can take this stuff on board or ignore it at your peril.

'This may be different with a band with the instruments on the picture, as people may look at the picture and think "Uhhhmmmm thats interesting, I think I will go and see them". If I put a poster of Vin Garbutt up it wouldn't do a lot in my area as most people wouldn't know who the hell is Vin Garbutt.'

This is presents a slightly different dilemma, and it's about who we're trying to attract to folk gigs. Naturally, a poster of Vin Garbutt in your local train station will attract minimum takeup, but a poster of Vin Garbutt in your local pub that hosts a folk club will achieve a totally different response. Similarly, I don't send folk print out to my audience for contemporary theatre; I send it out to my folk attenders. These truths are self-evident. But can we continue to rely on those same folkies coming to events year on year? How do we convince more of the people in the train station (particulalry some of the younger ones) that they ought to be coming along to folk events? Or should we be worried about this at all, as folk has always had a self-selecting audience, and those dwindling folk club audiences (in some places) will eventually be replaced by the new guard?"

So, what do you all think? What are the best methods of attracting people to folk events, and more interestingly, who should those people be? And whose job is it to ensure the health and growth of the folk audience - if, indeed, it's anyone's?

Subject: RE: Audiences for folk?
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 05:05 AM

>>'This may be different with a band with the instruments on the picture, as people may look at the picture and think "Uhhhmmmm thats interesting, I think I will go and see them". If I put a poster of Vin Garbutt up it wouldn't do a lot in my area as most people wouldn't know who the hell is Vin Garbutt.'<<

As that is my quote, I will tell you how it would work with Vin at my place.
Vin's website and mail list do an aweful lot to getting people in to see him.
My website which gets regular viewing from many people, supports that as well.
The local newspapers with a write up about the performer and picture, will also work.
Local radio folk program and Folkwaves is also important as they read the diaries out.
People are handed a diary of upcoming events when they attend my club.
I make sure my events are on the main folk websites around here, such as FolkTalk and Fizgig plus others.
Links to my website on other peoples websites is also helpful.
The rest is very much word of mouth.

As I have 5 performers every other week, I work on the basis, that if they enjoy the club, they will tell others.

Oh almost forgot, I post on Mudcat - you never know, it can pick up the odd person. If you are thinking ODD - well taht as well LOL :-)

Anyway, theer you have it. If you run a club and invest a lot of your own time in it, get out there and let people know. Above all make sure it will be an entertaining evening, so taht people will hopefully come back again.

Subject: RE: Audiences for folk?
From: GUEST,joaniecrumpet
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 05:15 AM

As a club promoter, Villain, can I ask you the size of your audience and a rough idea of their average age? Do you tend to have quite a robust core audience that comes to most of your events?

Subject: RE: Audiences for folk?
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 05:35 AM

It varies a bit.

worst has been around 35 including the performers.
best has been just over 70 including performers.

It tends to fluctuate between those figures depending on holidays,festivals,weather etc.

70 is about my limit for the place.

I do tend to have a core audience consisting of folkies and non folkies (never been to a folk club until they came to mine)

Variety and entertainment and generally not having to listen to the same artist for too long seems to be the basis of why people come.

Subject: RE: Audiences for folk?
From: breezy
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 05:45 AM

and most are over 65 so they dont want for much

the coaches return them to their hostels about 11.00 ish, but some old dears stay on

John Breeze

wouldnt catch ne runnig a folk club

O H I'll be up there in October, no tripping me up with those Zimmerman frames

Subject: RE: Audiences for folk?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 05:49 AM

As a woman of a certain age myself (or at least who is rapidly approaching a certain age) I am certainly not trying to cast nasturtiums upon the folk audience, whatever their ages may be. I just worry, looking at the average age of the audience in the venue where I work, that there aren't enough younger people getting switched on to folk music. And no matter how you look at it, that's not a situation that's healthy for the genre in the long term.

Subject: RE: Audiences for folk?
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 05:59 AM

I forgot the age thing - thanks for reminding me Breezy.

Breezy When you come up, I have arranged for only people over the age of 90 due to their short term memory, so that you can sing the only song you know, and do it 10 times, they won't even realise and you will be a star LOL :-)

Ages vary, my daughters go occasionally and they are 10 and 15.

Last time we had a junior chior, who's age on average was around 10.

I am starting to get young performers in like this week their is a 15 year old playing who has a really good future.

However, core audience age varies from 30 up to one dear lady who is around 90.
I fall in between at 61.

One of the problems with performing youngsters is they do their floorspot and tend to bugger off. Which can upset the loyal performers.

Subject: RE: Audiences for folk?
From: John Routledge
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 06:11 AM

Does this mean that the youngsters are only interested in the fame :0)

Subject: RE: Audiences for folk?
From: breezy
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 06:32 AM

in one J R

so whats new

Chior ra was a drink

thanks Villan and I was just about to devote more time than i could afford to organise my set list.

hey put the kids on later so they have to 'do their time', then keep their spots short. I wont mind going on early !

fame ? whats that?

les w is infamous

Subject: RE: Audiences for folk?
From: GUEST,wayne
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 06:52 AM

My weekly gathering is held in the main room of a pub where singers & musicians are not segregated from the punters. This means that the music has been heard by people who are not usually subject to it. Over the past year or so, we've built up a very loyal audience who come week in, week out and knew nothing about folk music until they just happened to pop down to our pub on music nights. Some of them have even started performing.

So when we held our festival last weekend, their word-of-mouth meant that our attendances were far higher than anticipated. Getting the music heard, in my experience, is essential. Open the club room doors!

Subject: RE: Audiences for folk?
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 06:53 AM

LOL

You will be on last Breezy and there will be quite a few mudcatters there to give you a very warm welcome. We are really looking forward to hearing you.

Don't know if I could muster up 70 ninety year olds :-), so I think you had better learn a few more just in case (says Les as he lets a titter go).

Subject: RE: Audiences for folk?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 07:04 AM

Much good stuff there Joanie and Villan, with which I won't argue. But reading it, a question crept into my head: What ages SHOULD we be trying to attract to a folk event (club or single event as opposed to a festival)?

I put forward the argument that we waste our efforts and meagre resources with the majority of 15-to-25s. Not that we don't want them to come to the clubs, but rather that we are trying to herd cats. That age is too fickle, more likely to be affected by the commercial channels vying for their attention, too interested in things like getting their leg over (a purpose which folk clubs can no longer serve, though we did OK back when), less likely to park their bum in one place for 3 hours, and too self-absorbed to listen to others - they've discovered life and they want to tell the world, not listen to the world (one of the reasons, I argue, for the kind of - mostly young - artist who does a floor spot and then disappears). No, leave it to the festivals to battle for their attention, they are much better equipped for that. Just be grateful and nurture whatever audience you can grab in that age bracket. But if we focus on them, we skip a whole generation at our peril.

Instead, folk clubs should be focussing on the 25-to-45 bracket. More settled in themselves (and therefore more likely to go for club membership), with more spare income, perhaps a need to get away from the little ones for an hour or two in the evening but not necessarily wanting to traipse to the nearest city for a major concert or play; and with at least some exposure in their past to folky elements.

Focussing on a target age group will probably also guide us as to the media and places we should use for our promotion. Sure, put up some posters at the local college or schools, by all means. But concentrate more on the local supermarkets, gyms, sports clubs, restaurants, Mothercare and like shops, nurseries etc. When it comes to media, the usual suspects (local papers & radio) are good - but the internet is increasingly usurping their role in informing the generation that follows us; I noticed a couple of clubs getting their pages up on MySpace, perhaps more clubs should follow the example. Focussed eMail campaigns might help (no scattergun spam please) - that means using someone with the nouse to create specific distribution lists from the jumble of email accounts you have collected at the door.

Of course, the focus on a target group may also mean changes to the material allowed in the club, in order to become attractive to them. Some clubs may need to relax their rules on that - if a newbie wants to sing "Maxwell's silver hammer" because that's what their Dad used to play to them when they were little, they shouldn't be shown the door, but encouraged, and then they might be more willing to listen to the more "mainstream folk" material to widen their experience. And perhaps one day they might sing "London Danny" or "She walked through the fair" to THEIR little ones.

Subject: RE: Audiences for folk?
From: breezy
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 07:22 AM

ah wayne, but do you book guests whom you pay or is it just a sing in the bar

One defeats the object of the other

Holding occasional bar sessions is an idea that i know some clubs do but it doesnt help raise revenue to keep a 'booking club' solvent

not last agin!

Subject: RE: Audiences for folk?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 07:47 AM

There are a lot of VERY good young singers and musicians around , but too many of them are looking for the main chance - Form a band , and look for Art Centre Concerts (Thats due to the attitiude of the colleges where they learn their music , I think) rather than spend time getting established on the Club circuit . And young musicians are more likely to go to local sessions where they can play all night , rather than go to a club and get two songs in an evening , and sit through boring old farts like me !
El G has it right - try for the later twenties upwards , who are more likely to sit and listen !
AND of course, all the people who stopped going to clubs when the children came along ! Are the kids old enough to look after them selves ? Then go back to the folk clubs !!

Subject: RE: Audiences for folk?
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 07:54 AM

George
Whilst I like to encourage the younger people, I know it is a tough job, so my efforts go to anybody who likes the club, young or old, or in between (like me LOL).
As I say, most of my people are aged from 30 up to 90

Its interesting what you say, about letting the youngsters sing their thing.

Had a young girl (under 16) the other week do "I wish I was a punk rocker" by Sandi Thom.
She did a great job of it, and had the audience doing the clapping rhythm for it.
I was impressed.

Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: Audiences for folk?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 08:04 AM

Yes, Les, it is indeed important to make them feel welcome, and that includes paying attention to what they play/sing. A clubful of bored-looking 50+yr-olds full of in-jokes and little appreciation for the poor bugger doing a spot can be a very scary thing.

I've heard Johnny Collins sing along to "Here comes the sun", and Mary O'Connor too (a source singer that's taught Martin Carthy a song or two in her time), during a youngster's floorspot. So I have little time for the snooty ones.

Subject: RE: Audiences for folk?
From: breezy
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 08:04 AM

she 'moved' through the fair George.

I saw her meself.

if it aint on the airwaves we are pissing into the wind, but then isnt that what life is about anyway

Dont want too many at M R Villan I dont like crowds

First 10 £3 then raise the bar.

Subject: RE: Audiences for folk?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 08:15 AM

I never expected you to fall into the pedant trap I set, Breezy!

I though after Stanfest you'd be ready for the large crowds...
Agree about airwaves - I would include the internet radio and MySpace etc though. iPod's and podcasting is the thing now. Have you cast your pod recently?

Subject: RE: Audiences for folk?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 08:41 AM

Fiona said on the F&A board:

"One of the things that puts me off folk clubs is that they're often on weekday evenings or Sunday nights, we hardly ever go out properly during the week and are more likely just to go for a drink or have some friends in, and we don't have any little ones at home! Finding a babysitter etc is hard enough work when it's something you really want to see, much harder to justify for pot luck at your local club and that's assuming you're not required for taxi services if your little uns aren't so little.

If this is an age group you want to attract I'd say have the odd afternoon session (Sunday lunchtime say) so folks can bring kids along or having a 'junior folk club' to run alongside the main one a sort of 'musical creche' with for example simple instrument making (rattles, shakers etc). I know this works well at the Hammersmith Irish centre where they have workshops on Saturdays afternoons and their own Young Musician competition. Parents and family will always come to see their own!"

Excellent points, I think. Les, I can imagine you trying the "junior folk club" idea...

Subject: RE: Audiences for folk?
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 08:43 AM

Not getting Breezy (Cold) Feet already are you :-)

Subject: RE: Audiences for folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 10:12 AM

" I just worry, looking at the average age of the audience in the venue where I work, that there aren't enough younger people getting switched on to folk music. And no matter how you look at it, that's not a situation that's healthy for the genre in the long term. "

I realize that most of this conversation has been dealing with issues in the UK, but we have similar "issues" here in the States.

I am convinced that all of us spend to much time worrying about attracting "young" people.   Every generation finds their own style of music. I can't think of a single cultural revolution that was purposely planned, promoted and successful.   Sure, there have always been commercial interests that jump on the bandwagon and promote their own agenda, but the core of the artistic merit always has been something that speaks to the needs of a generation.

When we try to promote "folk" to young audiences, just what are we trying to promote??   Usually we refer to a style that made sense to us when we were young, and we expect that 40 years later it will have the same appeal.   

At the same time, we tend to disregard musical styles that are being created by youth. It ain't your grampa's folk music!!

There seems to be a perception that folk music will disappear if we don't do something right now. Wrong. The folk revival of the late 50's, early 60's was the result of decades of interest in preserving our cultural heritage and traditions. The music spoke to a generation for a variety of reasons. Commercial interests came in and shone a spotlight for awhile, and then moved on to the next trend. There is a perception that folk music disappeared. The fact that all of us are on this message board should be indication enough that it is alive and healthy. Will we attract hundreds of people to concerts? Maybe the question should be, do we really want that.

With that off my chest, I do think it is important to promote what we do.   This music will find an audience, but they have to know it is there.

Here in New Jersey, there are several clubs in operation. Recently, I became the booker for the Hurdy Gurdy Folk Music Club.   With a 25 year history, the HG has seen audiences thin out over the years. There is a core group of about 100 people who will turn out for most shows. On average, we draw 75 people to "regular" shows, and maybe 200 when we have a "name" performer.   Our promotion efforts have been lacking in recent years, in my estimation. We are able to reach our core group, but we need to do more to reach potential audience members.

One of the "new kids" on the block is a great series called Sanctuary Concerts, located in Central NJ. This group is headed by Scott Sheldon who has some great ideas and regularly draws 200 people to his shows. One thing that he does is not to limit his shows to "folk".   While he will offer performers that perform trad music, he also includes "names" like Janis Ian, Richie Havens, Loudon Wainwright and others. They appeal to folk audiences but also go beyond the borders.   In booking names like this, he also attracts people to other concerts that feature artists that may be unfamiliar to his audience. They trust his taste, and they are usually very happy with what they see.

Scott does the usual promotion efforts - newspaper ads, flyers, posters, etc. He also maintains a large e-mail list and sends out regular notices. At the shows, he does things like hand out a piece of candy and a postcard to all audience members as they are leaving. The postcard contains notices of upcoming concerts.   He makes people feel welcome.

"Folk" has become the "F" word to some people.   While I am proud of the genre, I also recognize that labels can cause stereotypes.   Let the music speak for itself.    Remember the core audience and make them happy, but also look to expand. You don't want to create a "country club" but rather make an event where anyone feels welcome.

I've also started a blog to help promote concerts in the NJ area. I am getting a lot of "hits", but it still too early to tell how effective it is - ronolesko.blogspot.com

I truly believe that the music will sell itself. We do not have to compromise integrity to "sell it", but we need to recognize that sharing the music and being open to ideas will bring keep the music alive and fresh.

Ron

Subject: RE: Audiences for folk?
From: breezy
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 11:32 AM

I always wear 2 pairs of socks come october vill

No cold feet

Sorry George, but 'moved' it has to be.



I agree that the 'F' word seems to do nothing to aid promotion.

but I dont wish to compromise what I believe in, I only wish artistes would take a reality check.

and

running a club even 5 years ago is not the same as now, yet alone 25 years ago.

But thats still the basic formula

Somewhere the music left the youth en masse behind

maybe thats a form of 'progress'

Subject: RE: Audiences for folk?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 11:45 AM

I don't think it is a matter of compromise Breezy, but I think we need to do our own reality check on what perceptions exist. My own daughter has an image of "folksingers" as a senior citizen in a striped shirt singing "Kumbaya". The images that were created 50 years ago and led to the commercialization and subsequent demise of commercial "folk" still exist.

Artists and clubs should not try to be something they aren't, which works both ways. Don't give creedence to the stereotypes that were created and still exist - let the music speak for itself.

I disagree that it was the "music left the youth en masse behind". The "youth" grew up and new generations had different needs that required different sounds and voices. The music does not need to change. I don't see a huge outcry for a resurgance of ragtime, which about 100 years ago spoke to a generation.   Ragtime still has devotees, but it is not trying to be something it isn't. Ragtime evolved and its influence could be felt on pop music.   

Folk music is different because if encompasses so many different styles and sounds. Your definition of "folk" maybe different than mine, and our definitions will differ from others on this list. There is something for everyone, but it can't be packaged like other styles. Let people know it is out there, and they will gravitate to the sounds and styles that they enjoy.

Subject: RE: Audiences for folk?
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 12:38 PM

The answer is to put on as many singer songwriters as possible.

You get to hear new songs.

Although my club has people who sing traditional songs, I have many who sing their own songs interspersed with other songs.

An example of two different festivals without critisism and purely an observation from me..

Moor & Coast Festival Whitby - Glen allows singer songwriters (contemporary)

Whitby Folk Week - Malcolm is mainly concerned with traditional and does not encourage contemporary singer songwriters.

IMHO the Whitby Week does less for getting the youngsters into folk, verses Moor & Coast.

Bloody hell do I here the traddies jumping on their soap boxes - I hope not, becuase it is only my observation based on Ron's post above

Subject: RE: Audiences for folk?
From: stallion
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 12:38 PM

I remmember my dear wife explaining to the kids that "Folk Music" was in the charts when I was their age and i got stuck in the groove so don't take the piss. Actually York university has a thriving folk club playing and singing traditional music. I think, altough I am not certain, it might be a backlash against over produced, overhyped, music industry. I have to say it is quite refreshing to see half ones session attended by kids under twenty one (even if they do refer to us as "the crumblies")a lot of performers but also youngsters who come to join in the chorus and the craic. the craic is ultimately what brings people in, it is fun and we all join in with Geoff when sings "Daydream Believer"!, come to think of it, we join in with anything! It pays not to be too precious about the music.
Peter

Subject: RE: Audiences for folk?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 02:17 PM

I think the thing that's interesting is that in Ireland or Scotland, there isn't this problem with young people being alienated from their own musical heritage - that's because the traditional music in Scotland and Ireland is much more mainstream. There are all kinds of reasons for this, as we know. But the idea that kids just leave it behind because it's old people's music and not relevant to their lives dosn't hold true if we accept that in other places, this isn't the case. If kids hear folk and reject it, that's fine. but if they never experience it to begin with, they never have the opportunity to choose for themselves. We're planning a big schools outreach project at the moment - hopefully for the kids in the schools we're working with, folk will become part of the music mix that informs their choices of what to listen to as they get older. At least it won't be completely alien.

George, I think you're right about targeting audiences and being as specific as possible. Being in the middle of your 25 - 45 age group, I agree that my generation is ripe for harvesting. And people like Kate Rusby and Seth Lakeman are doing a very good job of being the acceptable face of folk, which hopefully will help to lure more of my generation deeper into the folky fold.

Admittedly, not many people of my age will hear Kate Rusby and run out to their nearest folk club. But they might be inspired to come to gigs at a venue like mine. And if your club's flyers were in the foyer at venues like the one where I work, or if you were handing them out as people left the gig, they might just be inspired to visit you...