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Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples

Azizi 15 Jul 06 - 10:11 AM
wysiwyg 15 Jul 06 - 10:23 AM
katlaughing 15 Jul 06 - 10:28 AM
Jerry Rasmussen 15 Jul 06 - 10:32 AM
Azizi 15 Jul 06 - 10:33 AM
wysiwyg 15 Jul 06 - 10:46 AM
Azizi 15 Jul 06 - 10:55 AM
wysiwyg 15 Jul 06 - 11:32 AM
Azizi 15 Jul 06 - 12:17 PM
wysiwyg 15 Jul 06 - 12:22 PM
Azizi 15 Jul 06 - 12:29 PM
Azizi 15 Jul 06 - 12:30 PM
Azizi 15 Jul 06 - 02:41 PM
Azizi 15 Jul 06 - 02:55 PM
Azizi 15 Jul 06 - 07:20 PM
dwditty 16 Jul 06 - 08:42 AM
Azizi 16 Jul 06 - 10:19 AM
GUEST 16 Jul 06 - 10:23 AM
dwditty 16 Jul 06 - 11:14 AM
GUEST 16 Jul 06 - 12:07 PM
Azizi 16 Jul 06 - 05:55 PM
Azizi 16 Jul 06 - 06:12 PM
GUEST,Another 16 Jul 06 - 08:01 PM
dwditty 16 Jul 06 - 08:19 PM
wysiwyg 17 Jul 06 - 11:45 AM
Azizi 17 Jul 06 - 05:54 PM
Azizi 17 Jul 06 - 06:01 PM
Azizi 18 Jul 06 - 01:09 PM
Azizi 18 Jul 06 - 01:14 PM
Azizi 19 Jul 06 - 11:19 AM
Azizi 19 Jul 06 - 11:32 AM
Azizi 20 Jul 06 - 07:32 AM
Azizi 20 Jul 06 - 07:46 AM
Azizi 20 Jul 06 - 08:01 AM
Azizi 20 Jul 06 - 09:15 AM
wysiwyg 20 Jul 06 - 10:08 AM
blind will 26 Jul 06 - 05:48 PM
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blind will 26 Jul 06 - 10:29 PM
blind will 26 Jul 06 - 10:33 PM
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Tweed 27 Jul 06 - 08:05 AM
blind will 27 Jul 06 - 09:25 PM
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Subject: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 10:11 AM

I woke up this mornin with my mind stayed on-Black Gospel.*

Early this morning I admitted in the Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar 05 thread that the discussion I was having with several others was broader than the question and subject of that thread. I also wrote that I felt that there might be archived threads that were better suited to this general discussion-and if not, because I had recently started a number of threads, someone-other than me-should start such a thread.

This morning I used the Mudcat Search engine to look for archived threads about gospel music that-imo- could be broad enough to include the origins/sources of Black gospel as well as the styles of Black gospel as well as examples of gospel music.

Btw, by "Black Gospel" I mean African American Gospel. But it would be interesting to read & exchange information about the roots of and traditional/contemporary examples of gospel from the Caribbean, Africa, Latin America etc. It would also be interesting to read & exchange information about non-Black gospel-though I suppose on this thread that might be on a compare & contrast basis.

While I found a number of archives threads, I didn't find one that I considered to be broad enough for the type of discussion I had been having and want to continue.

So here I am-starting a thread on this subject.

In doing so, I believe I am doing what the spirit moves me to do.
And as you know-you gotta move when the spirit says move*

*Though these lyrical references are probably spirituals and not gospel, I think they still fit where I'm comin from.

All of this to say that I extend the right hand of fellowship to you-as we do in my home church, and invite you to join in this discussion.


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 10:23 AM

I think a Mudcat search will bring up a lot of what you want to know. Hopefully some of the people who post will point you to some of these.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 10:28 AM

No kidding, Susan! Some research of the Mudcat is in order, imo.


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 10:32 AM

For some generalities about black gospel in comparison to white gospel, check The Gospel In Black And White thread, Azizi. I'm sure others can point you to many other threads. That's not to suggest that it's not valid to start this one, by the way..

Jerry


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 10:33 AM

As I mentioned in my first post, initially anyway, the discussion in this thread is meant to be continuation of the discussion that Mudcatter blind will and I and others were having in the "Gospel Music is Gaelic" thread.

Here's a link to Blind Will's initial post to that thread:

Blind Will: the development of Black American religious music

And here are links to two comments I made to him in response to his first post:

Azizi: Call & Response patterns in gospel music

Azizi: Caribbean music's influence on African American gospel


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 10:46 AM

Possible search terms (not a filter search, but SuperSearch):

Dorsey
Davis
Blind Willie
Caesar
Tindley

I also have some material on my hard disk I nver posted because it involved a lot of bullet-cop and other HTML coding that was beyond me. It's a time-period by time-period overview, with styles and examples-- probably the definitive article on the topic, that you may be trying to create here but can't (because the people who could have contributed to the work for you, here, aren't here much anymore. It was based on a scholarly music dictionary/encyclopedia. I would need a committed clone helping to adjust the coding once posted, and quite a bit of time to extract it from my own archive. It's part of a larger project to answer a question asked and debated here long ago-- and that thread can be found, as well.

From the spirituals permathread there are links to these great threads, which will give you more SuperSearch search terms:

Did the blues spring from spirituals?
Blues Related to Spirituals.
Gary Davis Songs.
Your Favorite Gospel Blues.

And adding links to this thread, to those threads, would be a help to others looking for the same information later.

Another good resource is WFMU radio's weekly program, Sinner's Crossroads. Living history, every week. I've posted about it often, and Supersearch will find that for you as well.


This isn't Wikipedia and isn't trying to be-- it's an ongoing discussion that can be participated in even after years have gone by since the last comment. By finding and commenting in the older threads, Azizi, you honor our past and become part of it in the present-- that invitation is always open. And please remember, we try to index what is here and add to it, when we can, instead of splitting the existing discussions into even more fragments with new threads.

I'm not saying people should not or will not conribute to this thread-- of course that is their choice, as it is your choice whether to join existing discussions or to start new ones going over ground that already exists. But you have an opportunity to see a bigger result for the world's understanding by doing it the way it's usually done at Mudcat.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 10:55 AM

For those who are interested in why I started this thread, I refer you back to my initial comment.

In addition, it is my opinion that this general thread will make it easier for person interested in this topic to find such archived threads as the ones already mentioned by posters.


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 11:32 AM

... this general thread will make it easier for person interested in this topic to find such archived threads...

It will, if it is an index of LINKS and not a rehash of already-stated things or copy/posts of already-posted discussions. Azizi, we don't need ourselves, our practices, or our posts to be organized according to any one member's view. A way of doing things that works quite well has already evolved.

What you intended is not the issue-- I am sure your intentions were perfectly wonderful. What results is what I have addressed, and I would invite and encourage you to allow a little time for reflection about others' intentions. If you want there to be an index, you need to be prepared to carry forward the work of finding and posting links to the existing threads. IMO there is a good example right now of such a work in progress-- do a filter search on "Band" 3-7 days back, and it will pop up.

Be part of us!

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:17 PM

Susan, my Mudcat membership confirms that I am a part of 'us' if by us you mean Mudcat.

As to my "carry[ing] forward the work of finding and posting links to the existing threads", imo, that is something we all can do...For instance, it would have been helpful and it will be helpful if links are provided when and if you and/or other posters refer to archived threads or current threads that you think are similar to or related to this one.

I'm not interested in this thread being "a rehash of already-stated things or copy/posts of already-posted discussions"...including a disagreements on my intent in starting trhreads that you or others may have.

I'm interested in the broad subjecty as stated in my first post.

And if no one else shares my interest in this broader discussion and if no one else wishes now or in the future to be a part of a discussion that I started on this thread, then so be it.


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:22 PM

For instance, it would have been helpful and it will be helpful if links are provided when and if you and/or other posters refer to archived threads or current threads that you think are similar to or related to this one.

And as I have said, if you want such an index-- be prepared for the reality that the bulk of the work of looking them up will fall to you.

Example-- Could I do that for my own remembered threads? Sure-- but I am busy today working on my own work. This new idea is work you can do yourself and which we have all had to learn how to do. Combing threads is fun-- if it's in your own area of interest. Go for it!

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:29 PM

Here's an online article that I found on the roots of African American gospel that includes-among other sources- West African musical traditions and Issac Watts' and others' Evangelical Protestant hymns.

"The Origins of a Musical Tradition
There is something seemingly timeless about gospel music. Even many gospel aficionados often discuss and write about the tradition in ways that suggest it exists outside of time, removed from history. But gospel emerged within a specific historical moment, reflecting a cultural climate characterized by uncertainty, instability, and loss. It is not inconsequential that modern gospel music arose during the 1930s, a time of deep crisis in the United States—and still, the closest anyone has come to a satisfactory definition of it is "good news in bad times." By the time the term "gospel" was employed to describe the new music, it was clear that an ideology of its meaning had developed. It was also clear that there were several key musical influences upon it, namely, West African music, evangelical hymns, "shout songs," Negro spirituals, Pentecostalism, and the blues.

Through the intricately complex process of cultural memory and transmission, the music of West Africa laid the foundation for gospel. In West Africa, the region from which most slaves originated during the Atlantic slave trade, music is the center of all aspects of life, particularly religious life. Aspects of this rich musical tradition make up the core features of gospel. In fact, descriptions of West African music apply equally as well for gospel. "Call and response," for example, serves as the centerpiece or root element of most West African music. This dialogical participation necessitates a relationship between singer and audience because music is a conversation, demanding a response from the listener. West African music is also characterized by unique vocalizations, including falsetto, chant, humming, moans, ecstatic exclamation, groans, and guttural tones. Repetition of words or short phrases for effect and emphasis often represent the bulk of the song lyric. Both the melody and rhythm are designed for embellishment and improvisation. Perhaps most important, West African music is performance-focused, requiring the use of the body."

Source: http://www.hds.harvard.edu/news/bulletin_mag/articles/34-2_best.html


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:30 PM

"..if you want such an index-- be prepared for the reality that the bulk of the work of looking them up will fall to you....if you want such an index [of archived threads or current threads that I think are similar to or related to this one]-- be prepared for the reality that the bulk of the work of looking them up will fall to you... Combing threads is fun-- if it's in your own area of interest. Go for it!"

-snip-

Thank you Susan, I will 'go for it'. And anyone else who wants to can join in...

But first I have to weed my garden.


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 02:41 PM

In no particular order, here are some links to other Mudcat threads that are related to the subject of this thread:

Spirituals? Gospels? Hymns?

Gospel Swap Weekend-- Good Idea?

History of spirituals

Jerry R's 'Black/White Gospel Workshop

Help: Blues Related to Spirituals

Can you sing 'Gospel' without Belief?

African-American Spirituals Permathread

Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar 05

-snip-

I'll be posting other links. Feel free to do so also if you would like to.







Feel free to add other links.


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 02:55 PM

Maybe that was more than a typo.

****

However, hopefully this thread will be more than an index. Hopefully, there'll be people exchanging information, resources, and opinions about this subject.

To that end, here's a Black Gospel Music Directory that I found.

That website indicates that 'On this page you will gain knowledge about black gospel music and black gospel singers, [and] black/african american gospel music recoring artist [s]"


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:20 PM

Here's some more links of Mudcat threads:

Lyr Req: gospel - I'm Satisfied

Where Are OLD BlackGospel Lyrics??

Gospel Singalong, NonChurch Setting???

Lyr Add: Are You Washed in the Blood

The Experience of Singing Gospel


Also, there's an archived Mudcat thread from 2003 called "the Gospel Mudic Hall of Fame". The links found in that thread don't work. I found this link for The International Gospel Music Hall of Fame and Museum . This may be the same organization referenced in that old thread.

In addition, I also found a thread from 2000 called "Lyr/Chords Req: Gospel / Spiritual. With the exception of what Joe Offer describes as "our link page": http://www.mudcat.org/links/index.cfm , the other links in that thread don't work.

Well, that's not exactly true. The link to Black Gospel Music site leads to advertisement for a link to a site where you can "Meet Black Singles for love".


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: dwditty
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 08:42 AM

Check This out!

http://juneberry78s.com/sounds/ListenToBlackGospel.htm


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 10:19 AM

dwditty, that's a great find!

That website has a page with this notation on it:
The Roots Music Listening Room

Black Gospel from the 1920s

And there are large number of songs listed.

Here's the link: http://juneberry78s.com/sounds/ListenToBlackGospel.htm


Thanks, again for letting us know about it!


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 10:23 AM

You're welcome, Azizi. If you register there you have access to something like 1600 old blues and gospel MP3s. These are stored at a low bit rate, so downloading is very fast...a few seconds per song. The guy that hosts this, does so from his own PC, I think, so it is best to only download a few songs at a time.

dw


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: dwditty
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:14 AM

ahh, I see I was cookie-less.


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 12:07 PM

Better than being clueless Dwitty!

In case you are unaware this Topic is covered very well here at the Mudcat.
There already is a lot of very good information about this topic right here.
__________________________________________________________________

I have something I feel I need to say.
This Thread seems so rude in so many ways. By even starting a Thread like this, the act itself comes across as an arrogant attempt to dismiss the work of quite a few Mudcat Members that have spent a good part of their Lives supplying this Forum with Information about this very topic.
These people have studied, some still do, this subject and can discuss at length many origins, styles and examples of Black Gospel Music.
It would have been respectful to simply add to and refresh Threads already in the Archives as that would have been a way to give credit and at least a little respect to those Members, but alas it is apparent that does not seem to fit with the intent here.
I am sure my opinion, like so many of the opinions already expressed on this Thread will simply be ignored.
That perhaps is the saddest part of all. I will not be returning to this Thread.


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 05:55 PM

Here's another website which has free Mp3 downloads of contemporary Black gospel/spiritual music from and information about such artists as BeBe & CeCe Winans, Kirk Franklin & the Family; Edwin Hawkins Singers; John P. Kee & New Life Community Choir:

Contemporary Gospel Downloads


That website indicates that "Contemporary Gospel is an updated, polished version of traditional gospel. Most of the material in contemporary gospel is newly written and the gospel choir has absorbed many innovations in soul music, both vocally and musically. On record, contemporary gospel often sounds similar to urban music".


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 06:12 PM

Here's the lyrics of a very popular contemporary Black gospel song:

"Why We Sing" Kirk Franklin

Someone asked the question
Why do we sing?
When we lift our hands to Jesus
What do we really mean?

Someone may be wondering
When we sing our song
At times we maybe crying.
And nothings even wrong

I sing because I'm happy
I sing because I'm free
His eye is on the sparrow
That's the reason why I sing

Glory
Hallelujah
You're the reason why I sing

Glory
Hallelujah
I give the praises to You

Glory
Hallelujah
You're the reason why I sing

And when the song is over
We've all said
Amen
In your heart just keep on singing
And the song will never end

And if somebody asks you
Was it just a show
Lift your hands and be a witness
And tell the whole world
No

And when we cross that river
To study war no more
We will sing our songs to Jesus
The one that we adore


Kirk Franklin Lyrics

Click here for audio clips of this song and other Kirk Franklin songs:

Audio Clips: Kirk Franklin


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: GUEST,Another
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 08:01 PM

'By even starting a Thread like this, the act itself comes across as an arrogant attempt to dismiss the work of quite a few Mudcat Members that have spent a good part of their Lives supplying this Forum with Information about this very topic.'

What a foolish thing to say. Thinking like that means you think every thread after the first one many years back is a slap in the face to the first thread. How short sighted.


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: dwditty
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 08:19 PM

watch out for flamers


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 11:45 AM

Another search term that will probably lead to many related threads:

Quartet Radio

... as well as links to hear it.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 05:54 PM

"Jessy Dixon And The Gaither Homecoming Friends:

One of the leading names in gospel music Jessy Dixon has written some of the most recognizable songs in the genre. Born in San Antonio, TX, Dixon showed a talent for songwriting at a young age, eventually moving out to Chicago as a teenager to try and make a name for himself. He was soon discovered by singer James Cleveland, who would go on to record several of his compositions. Word spread about his talents, and soon he was singing live to much acclaim. He began touring with Paul Simon as a member of his band and they continued to collaborate after the tour on the next two Simon albums. In his own career, Dixon recorded his debut single "It's All Right Now" with producer Andrae Crouch. It became a modest success, and the next few singles built on that success until he was soon one of the premiere names in gospel at the time. Later Dixon recorded his biggest single, "I Am Redeemed," an enormous success in the gospel world that stayed on the Christian charts for almost five years. He continued his solo career as well as writing songs for Amy Grant, Natalie Cole, Cher, and Diana Ross. His participation in Bill and Gloria Gaither's videos and tours have also led to many collaborations with the couple. He has continued to work in the gospel industry steadily through today, releasing albums and touring hundreds of days a year."

Click here for access to a sound clip of "I Stood On The Banks Of The RIver Jordan" : http://cdbaby.com/cd/jessydixon2


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 06:01 PM

Other names of contemporary Black Gospel artists [in no special order]

Hezekiah Walker

Fred Hammond

Richard Smallwood

Commissioned

Yolanda Adams

Donald Lawrence

Trin-i-tee 5:7

Mary Mary


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 01:09 PM

And here's WOW Gospel 1998: The Year's 30 Top Artists & Songs

Disc 1 of 2:

Stomp - God's Property

No Weapon - Fred Hammond/Radical For Christ

Jesus Is My Help - Hezekiah Walker/The Love Fellowship Crusade Choir

Speak To My Heart - Donnie McClurkin

Every Time - CeCe Winans

Stranger - Donald Lawrence And The Tri-City Singers

Call, The - Anointed

Be Encouraged - William Becton/Friends

Crucified With Christ - Commissioned

Greatest Part Of Me - Virtue

You Don't Have To Be Afraid - Take 6

Shout - Reverend Milton Brunson And The Thompson Community Singers

Holy Is The Lamb - Oleta Adams

God Cares - Sounds Of Blackness

Stir Up '98 - Colorado Mass Choir/Joe Pace
Disc 2 of 2:


Stand! - Victory In Praise Music And Arts Seminar Mass Choir

I've Got A Testimony - Reverend Clay Evans And The AARC Mass Choir

Glad I've Got Jesus - The Canton Spirituals

Total Praise - Richard Smallwood/Vision

Beyond The Veil - Daryl Coley

Gotta Feelin' - O'Landa Draper And The Associates

Thank You Lord (He Did It All) - New Life Community Choir/John P. Kee

Mother Sherman Story (We'll Understand Better By And By) - Carlton Pearson

Heaven - Shirley Caesar

Jesus Paid It All - Mississippi Mass Choir/Reverend James Moore

He's An On Time God - Dottie Peoples

Not The Time, Not The Place - Marvin Sapp

Helen's Testimony - Helen Baylor

Battle Is The Lord's, The - Yolanda Adams

Order My Steps - GMWA Women Of Worship

-snip-

I'm not sure or not if there's such a list every year.


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 01:14 PM

Well, I should have continued reading.

Here's WOW Gospel Listing: The Songs of 2002 & 2003

Disc 1 of 2:


King Of Glory - The Commissioned Reunion

I'll Make It - Hezekiah Walker & LFC/John P. Kee

Best Is Yet To Come, The - Donald Lawrence

Nobody - Kirk Franklin

God Has Not 4Got - Tonex

I Need You Now - Smokie Norful

Secret Place - Karen Clark Sheard
Superman - Vickie Winans

Praying Women (The Winans Women) - Bishop T.D. Jakes Presents

Heard A Word - Michelle Williams - Lyrics

That Ain't Nothin' - Fred Hammond - Lyrics

Standing On The Rock - Marvin Sapp

Anyhow - Deitrick Haddon

Beautiful - Brent Jones

Takin' It To The Streets - Take 6

Without Him - Debra Killings

People Get Ready - The Blind Boys Of Alabama
Disc 2 of 2:


In The Sanctuary - Kurt Carr

Anthem Of Praise - Richard Smallwood

He's The Greatest - John P.
Sponsored Links
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Find great offers of records at really melodic prices!
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Kee

There's Nobody Like Jesus - Darwin Hobbs/Shirley Murdock

Let Us Worship Him - Yolanda Adams

Praise Is What I Do - Shekinah Glory Ministry

I'll Trust You Lord - Donnie McClurkin

Can't Give Up Now - Mary Mary

Jesus, Jesus, Jesus - Aaron Neville

God's Got A Blessing (With My Name On It) - Norman Hutchins

Glad About It - Joe Pace

Send A Revival - Keith "Wonderboy" Johnson

Closet Religion - Dottie Peoples

One More Battle To Fight - Shirley Caesar

Drug Me - The Canton Spirituals

Do Your Will - The Rance Allen Group

-snip-

There are additional listing for other years.


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 11:19 AM

Here's another Internet site that folks may be interested in checking out:

Gospel Keyboard

That site indicates that it is the "#1 site for Gospel piano, Gospel organ, Gospel midi and Gospel chords".

That site also indicates that " We know how hard it is to find musicians to take the time to show you chords and runs, so we decided to help as many hungry musicians as possible".

-snip-

Here is an excerpt of the sound clips of songs & artists listed on that website:

KEY NAME / AUTHOR

Bb Lord We Bless Your Name, by Joe Pace
   Lord Will Make A Way Somehow, by Hezekiah Walker
E Lord You Are Good, by Israel & New Breed
Ab Lord You Are Welcome, by Clarence McClendon
   Love, by Kirk Franklin
   Make Me Over, by Tonex
C Making A Way, by Chicago Mass Choir ...

Eb We Worship You In The Spirit, by Deterick Haddon
   We're Blessed, by Fred Hammond
Eb We're Blessed, by Fred Hammond


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 11:32 AM

I just noticed that my 18 Jul 06 - 01:14 PM post included a link for "Black Gospel-Free to Join. 1000's of Pictures of Beautiful Black Christian Singles".

That was unintended. That website's name-Black Gospel-is very deceiving-no pun intended.


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 07:32 AM

Here the lyrics of a very popular contemporary Black Gospel song:

STOMP
[Kirk Franklin]

Spoken)
For those of you that think gospel music has gone too far
You think we've gotten to radical with our message
Well I got news for ya'
You ain't heard nothin yet
And if ya' don't know, now ya' know
Glory Glory!
You better put them hands together
And act like you know up in here

(Sung)
Lately I've been goin' through some things thats really got me down
I need someone somebody to come and help me turn my life around
I can't explain it
I can't obtain it
Jesus your love is, it's so amazin'
It gets me high, up to the sky,
And when I think about your goodness, it makes me want to
STOMP
Makes me clap my hands, makes me wanna dance,
STOMP
My brother can't you see, I gots the victory,
STOMP
Lately I've been goin' through some things thats really got me down
I need someone somebody to come and help me turn my life around
I can't explain it
I can't obtain it
Jesus your love is, it's so amazin'
It gets me high, up to the sky,
And when I think about your goodness, it makes me want to - STOMP
Makes me clap my hands, makes me wanna dance,
STOMP
My brother can't you see, I gots the victory,
STOMP

When I think about the goodness and the fullness of God
Make me thankful, pity the hateful, I'm grateful
The Lord brought me through this far
Tryna be cute when I praise him raise him high
I keep it live be bumpin' people jumpin'
Make the Lord feel somethin'
Ain't no shame in my game God's Property
When I be with Kirk ain't no stoppin' me
Now Stomp

Kirk : GP r ya' with me?
Choir : Oh yeah, we at the church ain't goin' no where
Kirk : GP r ya' with me?
Choir : Oh yeah, we at the church ain't goin' no where
Kirk : GP r ya' with me?
Choir : Oh yeah, we at the church ain't goin' no where
Kirk : GP r ya' with me?
Choir : Oh yeah, we at the church ain't goin' no where

STOMP
Makes me clap my hands, makes me wanna dance,
STOMP
My brother can't you see, I gots the victory,
STOMP

All my people say Stomp
Everybody say Stomp
All My Folks say Stomp
All my people say Stomp
All My Folks say Stomp
Everybody say Stomp

Kirk : GP r ya' with me?
Choir : Oh yeah, we at the church ain't goin' no where
Kirk : GP r ya' with me?
Choir : Oh yeah, we at the church ain't goin' no where
Kirk : GP r ya' with me?
Choir : Oh yeah, we at the church ain't goin' no where
Kirk : GP r ya' with me?
Choir : Oh yeah, we at the church ain't goin' no where

All my people say STOMP
All my folks say STOMP
All my cousins say STOMP
Auntie's say STOMP
My brothers say STOMP
My sisters say STOMP
Everybody say STOMP

I promise, the stomp, the whole stomp
Nothin' but the stomp

STOMP
STOMP
STOMP
STOMP
Kirk : GP r ya' with me?
Choir : Oh yeah, we at the church ain't goin' no where
Kirk : GP r ya' with me?
Choir : Oh yeah, we at the church ain't goin' no where
Kirk : GP r ya' with me?
Choir : Oh yeah, we at the church ain't goin' no where
Kirk : GP r ya' with me?
Choir : Oh yeah, we at the church ain't goin' no where

http://www.uppercutmusic.com/artist_k/kirk_franklin_lyrics/stomp_lyrics.html

This song is from Kirk Franklin's 1997 God Property/Nu Nation CD

Click Soudn Clips: Kirk Franklin if you want to hear clips of this and other songs on that CD.

The line in the song "GP r ya' with me?" refers to the choir's name.

Note the call & response patterns, the inclusion of a hip-hop talk segment, and the use of hip-hop languaging. All of these elements are found in many contemporary Black gospel songs.


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 07:46 AM

All contemporary gospel songs are not uptempo.

Here's an example of a very widely sung, popular Black Gospel song that is slow:

Artist - Donnie Mcclurkin
Album - Various Songs
Lyrics - Order My Step

Choir: Order my steps in your word dear lord
Lead me, guide me everyday
Send your annoyting father I pray
Order my steps in your word
please order my steps in your word

Lead1: Humbly I asked thee teach me your will
While you are working help me be still
Satan is busy God is real
Order my steps in your word
Please order my steps in your word

Lead2: Wright on my tongue let my words ever fight
Let the words of my mouth be exspectable in thy sight
Take charge of my thoughts both day and night
Please order my steps in your word
Please order my steps in your word

Choir: Order my steps in your word dear lord
Lead me, guide me everyday
Send your annoyting father I pray
Order my steps in your word
Please order my steps in your word

Choir: I want to walk, worthy according to your will
Please order my steps lord and ill do your blessing will
Your world is ever changing
But you are still the same
If you order my steps, ill praise your name

Choir: Order my steps, In your words
Order my Tongue, In your words
Wash my feet, In your words
Wash my heart, In your words

Show me how to walk, In your words
Show me how to talk, In your words
When I need a brand new song to sing
Show me how to let your praises ring
In your word, In your word
Please order my steps in your word
Please order my steps in your word

-snip-

See these lyrics and the lyrics of a number of other songs-gospel, spiritual, and African that are listed on the The Kuumba Website That website indicates that you can hear the Kuumba choir sing some of these songs by using RealPlayer G2.

["kuumba" is a KiSwahili word meaning "creativity". It is one of the 7 principles of the African American holiday "Kwanzaa". Each day of Kwanzaa is dedicated to a specific principle. Kuumba's day is the 6th day of Kwanzaa].


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:01 AM

Sorry.

An incorrect transcription of a verse of "Order My Steps" occurs on a number of lyric websites. Here's what I believe are the correct lyrics of that 2002 [?]song:

ORDER MY STEPS
Artist - Donnie Mcclurkin
Album - Various Songs

(Choir)
Order my steps in Your Word, Dear Lord
Lead me, guide me every day
Send Your anointing, Father, I pray
Order my steps in Your Word, YES
Order my steps in Your Word

(Lead)
Humbly I ask Thee, teach me Thy will
While You are working, I will keep still *
Satan is busy, God is real
Order my steps in Your Word, YES
Order my steps in Your Word

Write on my tongue, let my words edify
Let the words of my mouth be acceptable in Thy sight
Take charge of my thoughts both day and night
Order my steps in Your Word, YES
Order my steps in Your Word

(Choir)
Order my steps in Your Word, Dear Lord
Lead me, guide me every day
Send Your anointing, Father, I pray
Order my steps in Your Word, YES
Order my steps in Your Word

I want to walk worthy, my calling to fulfill
Yes, order my steps Lord
And I'll do Your blessed will
The world is ever changing
But You are still the same
If You order my steps, I'll praise Your name

Order my steps in Your Word
Order my tongue in Your Word
Wash my heart in Your Word
Guide my feet in Your Word
Show me how to walk in Your Word
Show me how to talk in Your Word
Provide me a brand new song to sing
Show me how to let Your praises ring
In Your Word, in Your Word, YES

Order my steps in Your Word, YES
Order my steps in Your Word

http://www.songmeanings.net/lyric.php?lid=66636

* There's some disagreement about this line. I think that the correct words are "While you are working help me be still"


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 09:15 AM

Here's another very popular contemporary gospel songs that has a slow tempo:

STAND
[Bebe Winan}

Tell me, what do you do
When you've done all you can do
And if seems like it's never enough
Tell me what do you say
When your friends turn away
And you're all alone, so alone
Tell me, what do you give
When you've given your all and
Seems like you can't make it through

Chorus
Well, you just stand
When there's nothing left to do
You just stand
Watch the Lord see you through
Yes, after you've done all you can
You just stand

Tell me, how do you handle
The guilt of your past
Tell me, how do you deal with the shame
Tell me how can you smile
When your heart has been broken and filled with pain
Tell me, what do you give
When you've given your all
And if seems like you can't make it through

Repeat Chorus

You just stand and be sure
Be not entangled in that bondage again
You just stand and endure
God has a purpose, God has a plan

Tell me, what do you do
When you've done all you can
And if seems like you can't make it through
Well you just stand (stand) 3x
And don't you dare give up
You go through the storm, (stand)
And through the rain, (stand)
You stand through the hurt, (stand)
And through the pain, (you just)

Hold on (stand)
And don't give up
Hold on (stand)
And don't you dare give in (you just)
Stand (stand) 3x
Said you just stand (you just)

After you've done all you can
After you've prayed and cried, cried and prayed
All through the night
After you plant your feet
Squared your shoulders
Hold your head up, and wait on him
He's gonna come through, yes he will

After you've done all you can
You just stand

http://www.lyricsdownload.com/bebe-winans-stand-lyrics.html


Also see this link for the Lyrics & Song clip: Stand


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:08 AM

More search terms:

Sister Shirley
Fairfield Four
Millenium Stage

~S~


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: blind will
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 05:48 PM

Azizi,

I decided this would be a good spot to answer some of your more off topic comments, which were given on the "Gospel Music is Gailic?" thread:

**Furthermore, my reading indicates that most of the African ancesters of black Americans came from cultural areas that had rich drumming traditions.See this excerpt from this article:Melt Press & the Origin of Jazz.**

I read the article and the excerpt that you gave me concerning where most of the black slaves come from.While I do have some major issues with alot of the article, I have no disagreement with this excerpt.If you look closely at the context of the excerpt, it's refering to the three places of Africa where most slaves in North & South America came (hence the use of the term "Americas").It isn't saying most slaves in the United States came from all these areas.Infact after this excerpt it inicates that different areas of the new world, took slaves from different parts of Africa.While it doesn't directly specify which of the three areas of Africa most U.S. slaves came from, it does give some clues by saying what areas the British and english focused on (Keeping in mind that people of this cultural background made up a major part of slave masters in the U.S.).

**Blind Will, re-reading your comments I note that you said that "drums were rare amongst black Americans prior to the 20th Century, and quite often banned."I concur with that statement."Rare" doesn't mean it never happened.**

Yes you understand correctly.I was going to quote a part of the Melt Press article you gave me which helps to support this position.But now that I've re-read your words I see that isn't necessary.

Continued later,


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:37 PM

Click Here and Here
for cpmments on gospel barbershop quartets that were written by blind will and posted on Mudcat's "Gospel music is Gaelic" thread.

And here is an excerpt from an online article on the African American origin of the barbershop quartet style of singing:

"The African-American origins theory is not new. Several of our early Society members and recent historians have made the assertion, or at least suggested an African-American influence upon barbershop harmony. But it was a non-Barbershopper, Lynn Abbott, who in the Fall 1992 issue of American Music published, "'Play That Barber Shop Chord': A Case for the African-American Origin of Barbershop Harmony," presented the most thoroughly documented exploration into the roots of barbershop to appear up to that time. In that writing, Abbott draws from rare turn-of-the-twentieth-century articles, passages from books long out of print, and reminiscences of early quartet singing by African-American musicians, including Jelly Roll Morton and Louis Armstrong, to argue that barbershop music is indeed a product of the African-American musical tradition.

Among Abbott's recreational quartets, W.C. Handy, for example, offers a memory that is quite telling of the racial origins of barbershop music. Before he became famous as a composer and band leader, Handy sang tenor in a pickup quartet who, he recalls, "often serenaded their sweethearts with love songs; the young white bloods overheard, and took to hiring them to serenade the white girls." The Mills Brothers learned to harmonize in their father's barber shop in Piqua, Ohio, and several well known black gospel quartets were founded in neighborhood barber shops, among them the New Orleans Humming Four, the Southern Stars and the Golden Gate Jubilee Quartette.

Early musicians associated barbershop music with blacks ...
Among Abbott's findings are specific early musical referecnes that suggest that barbershop was once acknowledged as African-American music...

Finally, the earliest known references to the term "barbershop," as it refers to a particular chord or brand of harmony, link it with African-American society. As early as 1900, an African-American commentator with the self-imposed moniker "Tom the Tattler" accuses barbershop quartet singers of "stunting the growth of `legitimate,' musically literate black quartets in vaudeville." The 1910 song "Play That Barber Shop Chord," which before Abbott's discovery of the Tattler's commentary was considered the earliest reference to the term "barbershop," also associates the genre with African-American society..."

-snip-

Source: The historical roots of barbershop harmony


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: blind will
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 10:29 PM

Azizi,

Continuing from my last post (It was getting around dinner time)...

**My difficulty is with the rest of your statement-the fact that most of the slaves that came to the United States came from the northern savana's, and in this area of Africa drums were not as common.**

I think there may be a misunderstanding in this discussion which is due to a different use of the term "northern".People have different ideas where the boundries of northern Africa begin and end.My use of the term "northern savannas" is inspired by a book I got for Christmas 19 years ago.It's a book by Steve Lawhead called "Rock Reconsidered".An excerpt from two paragraps on page 57/58 sais:

"Most of the slaves who found their way to the United States came not from the tropical rain forests but from the northern regions of the great savannas, the area of Nigeria and the Ivory Coast.Interestingly, the drum (and therefore,"the beat") was not an important instrument in the northern region of Africa from where American slaves came.Tony Palmer in All You Need Is Love:The story of Popular Music, observes, "The principal musical instruments of the savanna were stringed....Particularily common was the banya."The banya is the father of today's banjo.Palmer also points out that the banya did not originate in black Africa, but came there by way of Egyption caravans.Drums such as the slaves possessed were suppressed by white slave holders in America because plantation owners (perhaps rightly so) thought that the messages of revolt could be passed back and forth between groups of slaves.The banjo, on the other hand, had a brighter future as the slave's chief musical instrument since it's usefulness as a telephone was almost nil."

Now concerning the quotation above, it could be argued that the author Steve Lawhead and Tony Palmer (whom he quotes) got some of their information wrong.I can not say that I agree with all the views of Steve's book.But I think it is a well established historical fact that the stringed banjo became the most common musical instrument of the black U.S. slave, and this would help to support the idea that a significant number came from areas of Africa that favoured the older proto-types of the banjo.According to the Melt Press article you shared, the "savanna belt" includes largely Muslim groups such as the Fulani of Northern Nigeria.And another article I read (about Islamic roots of the blues) suggests that Muslim dominated regions of Africa have tended to favor stringed instruments.So this also supports the idea that this savanna area has put emphasis on stringed instruments.

**If you are saying that drums aren't a part of the musical tradition of some Central Africa ethnic groups, that may indeed be true.I don't know enough about it to say yeah or nay.But what about the Conga drum that is so heavily used in Afro-Caribbean music? the drum gets its name from the Congo.**

There may be a misunderstanding.I don't think any part of Africa is without a drumming tradition.And my comments were not focused on the Congo (soft voice).But I would suggest that some areas of black Africa at different times or with different groups--the drum has been less common (which doesn't mean non at all) and stringed instruments the primary emphasis.Drumming has been a very important part of the Congo area, and I don't denie that.But I don't think the drumming of the Congo had much influence on most black U.S music in the early days of slavery, though music of that type or similar would eventually have an increased impact on the black U.S scene.Mahalia Jackson, who was one of the major pioneers of black gospel, used what sounds like a bongo or congos in atleast one of her songs.(I can't remember the name of the song and my father no longer has the tape it was on).

**Furthermore, blind will, since nothing complicated is ever simple, I'm hoping you would also 'talk' about the influence of Caribbean music on African American religious music.**

These comments are atleast partly on topic with the Gaelic-Gospel thread, but I think I'll answer it here.(When you use the term "African American" do you mean any blacks from the South and North American continent? If I do use the term, I refer only to blacks from the United States of America/USA.)

To tell you the truth I don't know an awful lot about a Carribbean influence on the black U.S religious/gospel scene (if that's what you meant).It wouldn't be surprising if a certain amount of Carribean influence crept into some of the old black gospel, though I'm not aware that it was any real foundation.Perhaps Mahalia Jackson was using Carribean rhythmns in that song she uses with that bongo type drumming.I also don't think it's to surprising to find black religious music in the Carribean that is shaped by other music in the Carribean (don't mean that as an insult).You made a reference to such Carribean religious styles as Rasta Drumming (which is essentialy African music in style) and it's connection to reggae.There is a solid connection between Rasta drumming and alot of what is classified as reggae, though it also has indirect roots in the U.S. black gospel music (by it's adaption of black American rock'n'roll/soul music sounds).

That's all for now!


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: blind will
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 10:33 PM

Azizi,

Thanks for the barbershop info.I just notised that post now and wasn't ignoring you.It will help to show people that I'm not nuts for making such a claim.


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 11:51 PM

Given the importance of the percussive beat in much of African American music, including gospel music, imo, a discussion about the drum in African American history is not off topic...

and even it it were off topic, it still could be discussed here and elsewhere...

All that to say that I very much disagree with you that drums were not important in those cultures from which enslaved Africans came to the USA.

To refute that statement one need only examine the traditional music cultures then and now of the ethnic groups which were documented as being part of the slave population of the United States: to name some of the largest groups, Mandingo, Wolof, Fanti, Ashanti, Yoruba Ibo from West Africa and Bantu ethnic groups from the Congo.

It wasn't that drums never existed in the USA among African Americans. The prohibition of drumming greatly reduced the use of drums. But it never completely died out.

Here's a reference to drumming in New Orlean's Congo Square:
"In 1804 Fort St. Ferdinand was demolished, leaving an area of land, used for the commonwealth, called "Circus Place", and later called "Congo Square". Even before 1800, it was a place, where slaves gathered on Sundays. There was a law that stated, "slaves must be free to enjoy Sundays, or they were to be paid fifty cents a day if they worked." In 1817, the slaves were only allowed to gather for games, dances, weddings and funerals.

When they gathered, hollowed drums were used. They were hit with all body parts. Primitive banjos joined the instrumentation. The music, influenced by Creoles, was not monotone, and at times lovely and subtle."

http://advant.blogspot.com/2006/06/congo-square-new-orleans-la.html

Here's also a reference to a far less known special event for African Americans in the Northern part of the USA Pinkster Day

"One of the treasures of the State Library at Albany is a pamphlet containing the following Ode, perhaps the earliest description of a folk festival in the United States. On the day following Pinkster (Pentecost or Whitmanday) the Negroes of Albany held revels on Pinkster Hill, the approximate site of the present State Capitol. Gradually the celebration extended far into the week until in April of 1811, the Common Council of Albany passed rules aimed at "boisterous rioting and drunkenness"—rules which were the knell of the Pinkster holidays with their African folk dances. King Charley, the great Negro drummer and master of ceremonies, died in 1924, when he was said to be one hundred and twenty-five years old. He is certainly one of the important figures in American folklore."
-snip-

As was the case with Congo Square, books I have read indicate that during Pinkster Day {and "Election Day", another Northern Black holiay] various ethnic groups of African Americans durmmed and danced in their own circles.

There is also documentation of Black people post-slavery using African techniques to play drums-such as one person playing the drum while another person hits a beat to the side of the drum with a stick.

Furthermore, while it is true that foot stomping and handclapping served as substitutes for the prohibited drums, it is not true [as some books and articles seem to infer] that foot stomping and handclapping were not part of musical expression in the traditional African cultures of West Africa and Central Africa.

Pattin Juba is another percussive technique that certainly appears to have served as a substitute for the drum-when that instrument was prohibited or unavailable. That technique of rhythmically slapping one's thigh & chest may have been present in African cultures-I'm not sure about this...but one thing is for sure, that tradition that some refer to as "Hambone" combined with bass sounding footstoming lives on in the contemporary performances of university Black Greek letter step teams.

I have read that the Juba {"guiba"}was originally a spiritual dance. {But so to was the Congo line}. In the Caribbean and the USA Juba became a social dance. Here's a description of that dance:

"Onlookers would form a circle and two men would be in the center doing hand clapping, vigorous foot stomping and hand patting of the thighs, with feet turned out, and heels clicking together, generally the dancers had one leg raised as they danced a counter-clockwise circle... they would end the dance with a step called the 'Long Dog Scratch.' When the singers forming the circle (dancers doing a call and response form) said "Juba, Juba!, the whole circle would join in for a brief time.

When the law allowed, the dance used only a drummer."
Source: http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3juba.htm

Also here's one description of steppin:

In Elizabeth Khalil's article "Steppin' Out," Rashid Darden says that "stepping incorporates cheerleading, military, and drill-team moves, especially the call-and-response element inherent in those forms. That aspect is not only important to the energy of stepping, but to the cultural history to which stepping provides a link."

So, where do you find step shows? Everywhere. Although African American Greek fraternities and sororities originally helped to develop the popularity of the step shows, they are spreading across the country and around the world. From campus organizations and church groups to high schools and local communities, more and more people are becoming involved in stepping."

http://www.collegeview.com/articles/CV/hbcu/step_shows.html


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Tweed
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 08:05 AM

Talkin' About Jesus


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: blind will
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:25 PM

Azizi,

**Given the importance of the percussive beat in much of African American music, including gospel music, imo, a discussion about the drum in African American history is not off topic...and even if it were off topic, it still could be discussed here and elsewhere...**

Your right that it isn't off topic for this thread, which is why I posted it hear.But on the "Gospel Music is Gaelic?" thread where we discussed the drumming subject, you implied yourself that it was off topic for that specific look at black gospel.

You said on the "Gospel Music is Gaelic?" thread, 15 Jul 06-05:04Am:

"The topic of Black Gospel is very important to me, and I admit to getting swept away in the history of that topic more than in your specific question of the Gaelic roots of that music form.I very much recognize that this general discussion is far afield from the specific topic of gospel music in gaelic.If this thread remains open, I'll limit any comments I make to that specific topic" (paragraphs put together)

The above comments you said earlier, give the impression that you would only discuss things relating to the Gaelic roots of gospel from that point on (meaning you would no longer discuss the drumming issue on that thread).So it is only logical if I wanted to continue the drumming discussion with you, that I continue it in a thread where you would be willing to talk about it.

You then said on the following post, 15 Jul 06-10:19 AM:

"I have enjoyed all of this discussion that has occured in this thread, and may continue to provide comments here-but if so, they will be on topic."

You were implying with this statement that the things you discussed that didn't deal with the specific issue of Gaelic roots in gospel were off topic (this would of course include our discussion on drumming).Because of your comments, which imply that the "drumming discussion" we had was off topic (on that thread), I decided I should answer you in another spot.Hence discussing the drumming parts here.

I'll bang away at our drumming disagreement next post coming very soon...


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: blind will
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 11:04 PM

**It wasn't that drums never existed in the USA among African Americans.**

I'm a bit confused by you making this comment to me and it's made me feel slightly frustrated.I never said drums never existed in the USA among African Americans (slaves or otherwise), something I have been very clear about.Furthermore after you already had this misunderstanding before, you eventualy came to the understanding that I never said this and even agreed to what I said about drums being rare amongst black Americans.But now you seemed to have gone back to your former understanding.You said on the "Gaelic is Gospel thread?":

"Blind Will, re-reading your comments I note that you said that "drums were rare amongst black Americans prior to the 2Oth century and quite often banned."I concur with that statement."Rare" doesn't mean it never happened."

Exactly.You understood correctly.Yet after saying this and after I even quoted this statement on this thread (just a few posts back or so), you go back to your former misunderstanding.(Or atleast you give that impression).

Not only did you agree with me that drums were rare amongst black U.S slaves, but the Met Press Article:Drums & the Origin of Jazz" that you gave also agrees:

"While retaining the essential African characteristics--antiphony, syncopation and polyphony--African American music was forced to undergo a major transformation because of the absence of the drum."

This above quote is from the very article you gave me.I don't think they mean that drums were totally absent in slave days (with no exceptions), but are speaking in a general sense.I'm aware that there was a certain amount of drumming amongst black U.S. slaves.I have known a little bit about the slaves Congo Square drumming that you cited (though you gave some details I didn't know before).I have also read about dancing in the streets of New Amsterdam on religious holidays, accompanied by three-stringed fiddles and drums constructed from eel pots and covered with sheep-skins.Dutch family's even joined together with the festivities and danced with the blacks.But when New amsterdam became New York, the English discouraged the practice (This according to the Encyclopedia Britannica that I have at home).

**All that to say that I very much disagree with you that drums were not important in those cultures which enslaved Africans came to the USA.

It's possible that some of the information I have read has misled me.Perhaps I'm wrong to think that "most" blacks ("most" doesn't mean all) came from some savanna area of North-West Africa that favored stringed instruments over drums (which doesn't say that they never used drums at all).The book I quoted suggests "most" (not all) came from areas of Africa that emphasised stringed instruments.But these excerpts from a very controversial article (Muslim Roots of the Blues) seem to suggest a lesser/but still significant number from these areas:

"It's really there because of all the muslim slaves from West Africa who were taken by force to the united States for three centuries, from the 1600s to !800s.Upward of 30 percent of the African slaves in the United States were Muslim, and an untold number of them spoke and wrote Arabic, historians say now.........Drumming (which was common among slaves from the Congo and other non-Muslim regions of Africa) was banned by white slave holders, who felt threatened by it's ability to let slaves communicate with each other and by the way it inspired large gatherings of slaves.Stringed instruments (which were favored by slaves from Muslim regions of Africa, where there's a long tradition of musical storytelling) were generally allowed because slave owners considered them akin to European instruments like the viloin.So slaves who managed to cobble together a banjo or other instrument (the american banjo originated with African slaces) could play more widely in public.This solo-oriented slave music featured elements of an Arabic-Islamic song style that had been imprinted by centuries of Islam's presence in West Africa..."

The following quotes can be found in this larger article from: http://afgen.com/muslim_blues.html

Getting off the topic of drums for now, the idea that any American slave music could have Arabic or Islamic influences may seem crazy.But I did find it interesting when I borrowed a African cd from the library of about 23 songs by different current african artists, that many of the songs showed clear influence of an Arabic/Islamic tinged singing style.But it isn't just Muslim Africans that show some of this influence.And after I read the article I can pick up Arabic things in some blues that I couldn't hear before.I can also hear Arabic elements in the Gaelic Psalm singing that some say is the root of black gospel, which I believe to have some roots in ancient Christian chanting (some of which borrowed from Arabic music, even before the religion of Islam existed).Also Blind Lemon Jefferson who was one of the most influential early recorded bluesmen, spiced his blues with flamenco sounds from Mexican guitarists (a music style rooted in both Jewish, Arabic, and Gypsy music).So arabic music defenitly came into the blues genre in this manner.And considering how much black gospel is shaped by blues, this is relevent...

Hopefully non of us gets to offended with each other, though I think we stirred each other up a little bit.Just a little bit.

Anyway that's my spew for now....


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Tweed
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 06:26 AM

Pardon me for buttin' in here but want to offer this regarding drums and drumming: there is a portion of the African American peoples who live in north Mississippi who still know how to make drums from goat skins and cattle hides. Jessie Mae Hemphill,(who died last weekend) was one of them and she learned how to do it as a small child, from her great-grandfather and grandfather. They were sharecroppers for the most part and would obtain the hide of an animal butchered by the plantation owner and Jessie told of scraping and curing the skin to make drums. This is the same small community that fife and drum masters, Napolean Strickland and Othar Turner came from. Also, Fred MacDowell, R.L. Burnside, Junior Kimbrough, Ranie Burnette and others.   

These folks' ancestors came west from Georgia and the Carolinas after the Louisiana Purchase opened up the territory and they brought the musical skills with them and were able to continue building drums and burning out river cane to make fifes. (fices)

Anyhow, some African Americans were able to make and beat drums out in the country uninterrupted and call their friends and neighbors over for picnics and yard dances. Drum beats carry pretty far out there on still nights.


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Tweed
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 02:28 PM

Here's a link to a 10 minute film at Folkstreams.net. I think this one shows Mr.Otha burning out a fice and some picnic shots with the Fife and Drum band doing their thing.
This was filmed at Otha's house outside Senatobia,MS kind of between there and Como. They still hold the annual Labor Day picnic there and now his grand-daughter Sharde, leads the band. Sharde's maybe 14 now.

Gravel Springs Fife and Drum Flick


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 10:51 PM

Random thoughts as I peruse your thread with GREAT interest:

Lots of recordings of Otha Turner and friends may be had on I-tunes: I've loved the new music I've heard and learned since stumbling upon it.

Also, my daughter (sassy blond white girl that she is) was on the step team at her school last year. What an experience! I've been on the search for local shows to take her to, as well as recordings. If anyone hears of any, please let me know!

OK, talk on... I'll be over in the corner eavesdropping.

Dani


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: blind will
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 10:55 PM

Tweed,

Feel free to but in anytime you want.What you said was interesting and has made me learn something new.Looking forward to checking out the film.


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 01:38 AM

I've just watched the film again. A couple of the drummers are playing 'bodhran-style' ie. with the the knuckles, one on what looked like a tin pail (ouch!) and the other on what appeared to be a bodhran? I know this style of playing was used on tambourines in England as well as Ireland but does it occur anywhere else in the world?


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Tweed
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 02:55 PM

From what I know about the folks down there, they are probably beating the drums with their knuckles because they misplaced the drumsticks somewhere but the show goes on.

Manitas wrote: "I know this style of playing was used on tambourines in England as well as Ireland but does it occur anywhere else in the world?"

It still occurs in Mississippi and I would imagine on the West Coast of Africa too. They have handed down this stuff for generations and being in the hill country a bit west of the delta flatlands, they've managed to stay relatively isolated. The kids still listen to hip hop but they go to the picnics and see the older people do what they've done for a long time, dancing and making simple, infectious trancelike music.

The dancing is very cool and I thought at times that I was in Africa. It's not at all like modern dancing, but seemed like a sort of a play.   The little kids mimic the old people and it is staying somewhat alive that way, but I reckon it will go out soon.


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Tweed
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 03:48 PM

Here's another one from Folkstreams:

Allan Lomax's The Land Where Blues Began

You'll see a real young R.L.Burnside, one string diddley bows being played, and lots of rootblues going on.


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 08:25 PM

Thanks for sharing the link, Tweed. That film is terrific.

Now THAT'S a party!

Actually, it kind of reminded me of the spirit of the free times at the Getaway, people wandering, attracted to what they hear, spiriting into groups, young ones hovering behind old ones and trying stuff out.

Nice.

Dani


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 09:21 AM

Surfing the Internet for another subject, I happened upon a soul music discussion forum called http://www.soulfuldetroit.com/forum/.

In 2004, a poster to that forum stared an alphabet gospel game in which posters listed their favorite gospel song from a to z.

Some folks here might be interested in checking it out.


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 09:31 AM

Actually, the first posting of that SoulfulDetroit.com alphabet Gospel game occurred in August 2005 and is still going on now.


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: blind will
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 11:53 PM

Another site that will probably interest some people is www.hoyhoy.com.It's actually about rock'n'roll music, but part of it's discussion is it's black gospel roots.It is a very excellent site that corrects some extremly common myths about the genre.See this page if interested:

www.hoyhoy.com/dawn_of_rock.htm

If you go this web page above, it offers some links to hear examples of old black gospel (though they use the term by it's looser defenition).The musical link that sais "this 1934 recording" is a 20th Century survival of a ring shout, probably something from a Sanctified or Pentecostal type church.Another link that sais "Campmeeting Jubilee" is said to be a 1916 minstrel recording of black gospel, though it's musical style is straight up barbershop.

Speaking of barbershop music I recently received a book in the mail called "Four Parts, No Waiting" by Gage Averill.It was a review of this book that originally gave me insight into the Austrian roots of barbershop and the related realm of black gospel quartet harmony.The actual book though also cites it's German connections.According to this work Germans and Austrians played a major role in the maturation of American part-singing, especially through a series of tours by singing groups from the Austrian and Swiss border region of the Alps.These tours to America which began in the 1830's included singing groups by the names of the German Minstrels, the Alpine Minstrels, and two different groups that went by the name of the Rainer Family (also known as the Tyrolese Minstrels).The most influential of these singing groups was the last formation of the Rainer Family (a quartet), who amazed American audiences with their close harmony and well blended voices that made it very difficult to tell which singer was singing which part.The only problem is they sang in the German language, so many Americans could not understand a word they sang.But soon their songs would be published with English words and many American born quartets would spring up in their likeness.The most influential of these American quartets was the Hutchinson Family who were doing concerts as early as 1840.

Interestingly enough The Virginia Minstrels who formed in 1843 and kicked off the black minstrel show, took the "minstrel" part of their name from the Tyrolese Minstrels (Rainer Family)--that German speaking quartet I just mentioned.Like them they were a four member group and wore funny costumes.One of the big differences however was their painted "black face" and use of musical instruments such as banjo and fiddle which often accompanied their singing.A very common way of singing the minstrel songs was singing solo on the verses, and doing four part harmony on the chorus (though minstrel tunes came in some different styles, some all instrumental).Another minstrel group by the name of the Harmoneons, published minstrel sheet music in 1843 for their version of "Nancy Paul" which is arranged for mens four part harmony.So this helps to show that black minstrel singers were singing four part harmony from their earliest days.

But did these early minstrel show singers make their own variation of already existing black barbershop harmony (from some Austrian/black American type of fushion)? Or did they simply borrow from the white Austrian related close harmony (often sung to folk tunes) and mix it up with the black American folk tunes of the plantation? There is evidence that the early white-black face minstrels may have done something closer to the later, with black Americans later putting their unique twist on these creations.For example as early as 1844 The Congo Minstrels advertised that "their songs are sung in Harmony in the style of the Hutchinson Family" (the all white American quartet that imitated the Raimers).

I'm not so shure that the barbershop form began the way I thought it did.Did it begin with blacks imitating whites or whites imitating blacks? Is it always related to the minstrel show? Certainly there were black close harmony groups that had nothing to do with minstrel shows--an early example being the Lucas Family in the 1840's (their first public appearence by atleast 1848).But the Lucas group though they were black doesn't appear to be that influenced by black music if at all, and included all instrumental numbers in their repertoire (I'll have to research more on this group to see if this is true, right now they appear to have done some non barbershop-very white type of close harmony).At any rate, both German/Austrians, white and black Americans greatly contributed to the form.And apparently the first association this music had with barbershops was black owned barbershops.

That's all for now.


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 06:20 PM

Here's a video that shows the influence of the hip-hop genre on African American contemporary gospel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noX6Aigurc0&mode=related&search=

Kirk Franklin & God's Property-Stomp


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 06:29 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oH-29ZRuH0&search=Kirk%20Franklin%20Gospel

kirk franklin: why we sing

This is my favorite contemporary gospel song.

Notice Kirk Franklin's {the soloist} use of the lining technique of singing {or speaking} a line and the choir then singing that same line.


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 07:07 PM

Click http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQa6L0Z-AR8&search=Shiloh%20Baptist%20Church%20Peace%20Be%20Still%20Shirley%20Caesar%20Gospel for another style of "contemporary" African American gospel music.

Walter Hawkins,Clark Sisters.,Shirley Caesar,Mighty Clouds Of Joy-I'm Going Away


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 07:15 PM

This is one of my favorite gospel songs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgKSdyNJ-TM

Peace Be Still
[Rev. James Cleveland's classic song sung by Shiloh Baptist Church]


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 07:46 PM

Here's an older style of Black gospel music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xz_OPnuBYA&search=zie%27l%20gospel%20clark%20sisters%20women%20genesis%20z1%20zeil%20zeal%20love

God Specializes
[sung by Dorinda] Clark, one of the Clark Sisters.

Here's the summary that the poster, BlessedByTheBest, wrote for this video:

"Dorinda sings "God Specializes." This is at the old edifice of West Angeles COGIC! Where Bishop Charles E. Blake is Pastor!"

[COGIC=Church of God In Christ].


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 02:57 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3LsmnlJY5I&mode=related&search=

Fred Hammond "Old Time Mix"

From Fred's DVD "Live In Chicago". he was introducing the band and [for 6 minutes Fred Hammond, his band, and singers and the audience] went into a old time mix of gospel songs.


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: Janie
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 05:42 PM

Thanks for links, Azizi. Here is a sample of old-time southern black gospel that I particularly enjoy. After you reach the page, click at the top where it says "click here to display item" Windows Media Player will open.

http://www.aca-dla.org/cgi-bin/viewer.exe?CISOROOT=/WarrenWilson&CISOPTR=1649&CISOMODE=grid


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Subject: RE: Black Gospel-roots, styles, examples
From: keberoxu
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 01:01 PM

One of Azizi's posts (miss you, dignified lady)
names Rev. Carlton Pearson.

I just heard of Carlton Pearson for the first time yesterday.
But he has been news for some time,
only not for musical reasons.

National Public Radio, in 2005, profiled Rev. Pearson on a segment of their "This American Life" program. The title of Rev. Pearson's profile is "Heretic."
I did not hear the program, or take notice of Rev. Pearson's story,
in 2005.

Yesterday -- and the current year is 2018 -- NPR broadcast a re-edited, updated version of "Heretic." I overheard it while channel-surfing on my car radio, driving to a restaurant for dinner.

In the thirteen years since "Heretic" was first broadcast on the radio,
Rev. Carlton Pearson's story has been made into a film, Come Sunday, that will be on Netflix.


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