BS: Trial by British Media

Subject: RE: BS: Trial by British Media
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 03:49 PM

According to the Guardian, one of the five has been living a quiet life without drawing the attention of the police to himself for some years. Not one of the brothers, nor the son of the local gangster.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Trial by British Media
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 10:51 AM

Guest 08:26:

If they are found to be innocent, they will be declared so by the Courts.

In English courts no-one is ever declared innocent. They may be declared 'Not Guilty', at which stage the English law has a presumption of innocence. But that is only a presumption. Innocence is notoriously difficult to prove.

Even when an earlier 'Guilty' decision is overturned, it is usually only stated that the previous decision was unsafe. A person is rarely (if ever) declared innocent.

CHEERS
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Trial by British Media
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 08:51 PM

Don T, I think you said they'd filmed themselves. To some people that might possibly suggest a degree more bravura on their part than was actually the case. It was a small point of fact, that's all. I didn'texpect you to bridle. Incidentally none of them seems ever to ohave admitted the murder or discussed it, even during the many hours over which they were secretly filmed.

Good points Jacqui. That ambiguous phrase of Bentley's was indeed considered at the trial, but subsequently strong doubts were raised about whether the comment was made at all, with some persuasive evidence that it was concocted in the course of "verbaling" while Bentley was being transported with three officers in a police car. The real issue was whether Bentley had known Craig was armed. The jury chose to believe that he did know - enough for him to be found guilty on grounds of "common purpose" even though he had surrendered into police custody when the shooting occured. After thatt, the matter was out of the hands of the jury, and even the judge had limited options. The real scope for discretion lay with the Home Secretary, David Maxwell Fyfe, who could have granted a reprieve. Grounds (apart from the sheer injustice) included the fact that Bentley had been assessed as having a lower mental age than Craig's actual age - something not disclosed to the jury. Craig, incidentally, tried to kill himself after the shooting but failed. He was released after 10 years in jail amd became a decent law-abiding citizen working in (I think) the transport industry.

Subject: RE: BS: Trial by British Media
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 08:26 PM

If they are found to be innocent, they will be declared so by the Courts.

Subject: RE: BS: Trial by British Media
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 05:55 PM

Trial by Mudcat, acquit the innocent.

Subject: RE: BS: Trial by British Media
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 05:38 PM

"Don T, the five murderers in question didn't actually film themselves. They were caught on a police surveillance camera."

And this alters....what, in relation to their behaviour?


"You have the brains God gave gave a dozen gnats." That many, Guest?
I reckon you're flattering him.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Trial by British Media
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 01:46 AM

"Subject: RE: BS: Trial by British Media
From: GUEST,Goldhawk Road
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 12:51 PM

It's Clear these five guys have not killed anyone. It's also clear that a lot of you are badly misinformed or simply stupid. Guilty men don't walk free."

You have the brains God gave gave a dozen gnats.

Subject: RE: BS: Trial by British Media
From: GUEST,Skipy
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 06:15 PM

From here on in I am not even going to read anything with a name GUEST.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Trial by British Media
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 06:02 PM

Lots of guilty people walk free. And plenty of innocent people get convicted.

In many cases when either of these things happen there is a strong suspicion that bent policemen have played a significant part in it happening. The latest accusations about that in the case of the Lawrence murder are in line with what many people have suspected to be the case all along.

And it is virtually unheard of for any police to be put on trial for anything connected with miscarriages of justice. That is the real enduring scandal. I'm afraid I'd be astonished if anything changed in relation to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Trial by British Media
From: jacqui.c
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 01:34 PM

As a Victim Support volunteer we had to learn some of the workings of the court process.

It is frustrating to know that, even if the police have no doubt as to the perpetrator of a crime the Crown Prosecution Service will not take a case to court unless they have a very high chance of winning the case. There are a lot of guilty people walking around free for lack of incontravertable evidence to convince a jury of their guilt.

The standard set is 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. All it needs is for one person to perjure themselves or for the police to make a mistake in their investigation of the case or the handling of the evidence for that doubt to appear.

In the Bentley case he was executed on the basis of his call to Craig to "Let them have it", construed by the Prosecution as "shoot him". It could just as well have been Bentley telling Craig to give up his gun. There would have appeared to have been a lot of reasonable doubt there, but that was many years ago and, I think, juries may have taken a harder line than is the case these days. Strange that, in the days of the death penalty, there seems to have been this harder line taken than now, when, it seems, a lot of killers can get out of jail inside a few years.

Subject: RE: BS: Trial by British Media
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 01:32 PM

Chris B, whatever our views about Mark Daly's style, the police and Michael Mansfield (barrister for the Lawrence family) have both credited him with getting the evidence of curruption that they could not get at the time nor subsequently, despite their best efforts. It is entirely as a result of his work that the police have reopened an incident room and put out a renewed app;eal for witnesses.

The same guy spent many months undercover as a police officer, ocvertly filming evidence of police racism, as a result of which there were several resignations from the police, and several prosecutions brought.

Don T, the five murderers in question didn't actually film themselves. They were caught on a police surveillance camera.

Rap, the reason this case remains an issue 13 years on is that it has been recognised as a misscarriage of justice almost from the start. I don't know about the US in this respect, but in the UK there are people who simply do not give up where matters of justice are concerned.

Michael Mansfield, the barrister in this case, also represented victim families in the recently concluded inquiry into Bloody Sunday, which happened way back in January 1972. The report from that inquiry is now overdue. The rumour is that it will recommend prosecutions for murder against British soldiers. At the very least it will show an earlier inquiry, by the senior judge of the day, to have been a pack of lies and to have made outrageous accusations against entirely innocent victims. That's worth doing regardless of how much time has elapsed.

Subject: RE: BS: Trial by British Media
From: Emma B
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 01:01 PM

Errors of impunity
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Errors of impunity is a term used in Brian Forst's book Errors of Justice and in Robert Bohm's introduction to a special edition of The Journal of Criminal Justice on miscarriages of justice. They are defined as lapses that result in criminals either remaining at large or receiving sanctions that are below a socially optimal level.

Effects
Forst argues that a variety of social costs are incurred as the number of culpable offenders set free increases: public safety and the quality of life are compromised, the credibility of deterrent effectiveness is lost, and citizens become increasingly inclined to perceive injustices to victims and alienation from the police and courts, if not from government generally. As a result, Forst argues, the integrity of the justice system becomes threatened both by the reality and perception of ineffectualness. These lapses can run through the entire justice system, from ineffective policing and prosecution to weak sentencing and corrections.

Subject: RE: BS: Trial by British Media
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 01:00 PM

It sure does, it sure does.

Subject: RE: BS: Trial by British Media
From: jeffp
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 12:55 PM

Happens all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Trial by British Media
From: GUEST,Goldhawk Road
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 12:51 PM

It's Clear these five guys have not killed anyone. It's also clear that a lot of you are badly misinformed or simply stupid. Guilty men don't walk free.

Subject: RE: BS: Trial by British Media
From: GUEST,Nicholas Waller
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 11:52 AM

Bentley was also already in the custody of the police when the shot was fired.

Ralph McTell wrote a song about it; June Tabor covered it:
http://web1.pipemedia.net/~sar/bentley/bentley_and_craig_song.html

In 1998, according to this, Bentley was pardoned (46 years after his death)
http://web1.pipemedia.net/~sar/bentley/db_main.html

In relation to "joint purpose", I saw a CCTV clip on TV the other day, in relation to the US. Two guys (at least one of them armed), raided a shop. The shopkeeper had his own gun and shot at them, killing one of the thieves, and the other thief - who may even have been unarmed - was done for murdering his friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Trial by British Media
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 11:06 AM

Very early this morning some of the croquet-mallet-wielding young men (who were out on bail), wearing hoods. turned up at a house and bullied their way inside. Once inside they beat the occupants, breaking one guy's jaw (the police didn't say if the assailants used anything but their hands and feet).    Those assaulted were all members of a local rock group called "Death in December" and the assailants were apparently disturbed about the group's "effect" upon their girlfriends.

Ages are 17 to 24.

And yes, the police are in the process of rounding them up; one was caught almost immediately after the attack.

The "documentary" described reminds me of Geraldo Rivera of the US, who I remember once chased a pimp down the streets of Akron, Ohio in order to "get a story."

Subject: RE: BS: Trial by British Media
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 06:13 AM

Derek Bentley was hung for the murder of a policeman in 1953, he was 19. The murder was actually committed by his accomplice Chistopher Craig who was 16, Craig was too young to hang although he pulled the trigger, so Bentley was killed instead.
So it is obviously posssible to convicy all 5 of manslaughter or murder, and conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Trial by British Media
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 06:01 AM

Well, I hope I'm wrong then. I mean that.

Subject: RE: BS: Trial by British Media
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:54 PM

"They can't all be found guilty of murder.

In a group attack you don't have to be the one who actually uses a knife to be guilty of murder. If a jury decides that there was a joint purpose to commit the murder, and that a defendant shared that joing purpose, that's murder. That's tne law in this country anyway, it might be different elsewhere.

Of course if you're a police officer it's liable to become an issue of health and safety rather than murder or manslughter... But that is another matter.

............
It was a scrappy "documentary" in the modern style intended for people with very short attention spans, and an appetite for staged confrontations, and it get blurring reconstruction with reality in a very irritating way. It has pushed the matter back into the opublic eye.

I don't think the crucial issue is so much the fact that the killers walked free, but rather the evidence that police corruption was the key element in achieving that - and that the Macpherson Report into the whole thing may have been manipulated into covering up this side of the affair. Cover-ups are in a way more deadly to agencies such as the police than corruption itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Trial by British Media
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 05:13 PM

But two men did come forward due to the documentary. One an important eye witness ( the man on the bus) and the other who had been attacked by the gang as well, he had been stabbed through the heart and too scared until now to give evidence against them, but is now willing to do so.

I also didn't think the reporter was top notch, but he pieced together some pretty unarguable evidence and those who did speak were very forthcoming at last.

The problem seems to lie in that no one can state beyond a shadow of doubt which of the gang wielded the knife. They can't all be found guilty of murder. I don't know how that can be satisfactorily proven.

The police, the public and the media all know the gang killed Lawrence, had they been walking along the street individually the attack would not have occurred. But the gang can't be tried as a killing machine in totality.

If they had been prosecuted for a racial attack apparently the guilty verdict would be a foregone conclusion, but the sentences would not have been an insult to the Lawrence family for the loss of their son.

I don't know what the possible legal outcomes could ever be in this case. We need someone with prosecution experience to throw some light on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Trial by British Media
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 04:48 PM

I saw the programme on the BBC last night and I found it disturbing on a number of levels. Of these 'fine young men', one is the son of a convicted gangster and drug dealer, two are a pair of brothers who appear to have tried to model themselves on the Krays. For any US or Canadian readers, the Krays were gangland leaders in the 50s and 60s in London who were very successful and extremely violent. They were also friends with a number of showbusiness figures of the time.

I remember the Stephen Lawrence murder and I have no doubt that recism and corruption in the Metropolitan Police played a direct part in the failure to achieve a conviction. I also do not believe, from what I have read, that the police should now be seeking any different suspects.

But the style of the film and the techniques employed by the reporter also disturbed me. By the end of the film it seemed to me that I was watching a film about this reporter's investigation rather than a film about the murder. The guy turned up anannounced at the homes of relatives of suspects and witnesses and then invited us to draw conclusions from the fact that they told him to bugger off. What did he expect? The whole show (and it was a show by this time) took an important story and turned it into an ego-trip for someone who did not appear to be a very effective reporter.

Apparently, the police have set up a new incident room for the investigation and are inviting witnesses to come forward. I doubt that this film will have encouraged very many of them to do so. A pity.

Subject: RE: BS: Trial by British Media
From: skipy
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 04:31 PM

we do a few odd things at White Horse Folk Festival:-
this year it is croquet (true) will we need armed cops as well as a risk assessment?
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Trial by British Media
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 04:10 PM

Police in every country, including the US, bungle investigations and/or are guilty of racial bias. It only takes one honest cop to ruin the reputation of a hundred bad apples (to paraphrase Bob Gibson on the "Gate of Horn" album).

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 11:07 AM

Something familiar about spelling mistake in title

Several decades ago, when Word Perfect and MS Word were both still DOS programs, Word Perfect was failing and needed a gimmick. They produced a "legal spell checker" that was intensively marketed to lawyers, and it found great favor. The legal dictionary saved Word Perfect from oblivion, and it remains in use at large numbers of legal firms.

The only difference ever found between the Word Perfect legal spell checker and the one used in MS Word was that the word "trail" did not appear in the Word Perfect dictionary, and hence that one word would always be tagged as a misspelling.

The "improved" spellchecker was sold to the lawyers who didn't do the word processing, and the wp workers who already knew how to exclude the word in MS Word were not consulted; but "the word" significantly changed the wp industry.

Tiny things sometimes have large effects, even when they're trivial, if the "right people" get the (right or wrong) message.

You are now returned to the program in progress.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 10:00 AM

Thank goodness it wasn't a polo mallet, I don't know what the world's coming to, things like that give coquet a bad name.
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:49 AM

Rap - the problem with this one is the fact that the police investigation appears to have been bungled, at best, if not downright biased.

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 08:58 AM

Oh, in Britain. Sorry, I've got enough to worry about over here in the US, like the four young men who beat another with croquet mallets. The police have three of the four in custody; the victim is recovering at home with broken arms and ribs and a smashed-up pickup truck. And this happened yesterday, not 13 years ago.

Oh -- nothing racial; it was over a girl.

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: Mr Fox
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 08:48 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: GUEST,Goldhawk Road - PM
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:09 PM

Yes they are fine young men sir one is a cousin of mine.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Were you with him that night at the Allhallows caravan park when he tried to skin somebody alive?

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 08:20 AM

Joe - I don't think this is fighting - just putting the other side of the coin, together with the facts to support it.

I think that it is extremely importanat that posters such as Goldhawk Road are shown up for what they are, even if they have gone away.

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 03:40 AM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 03:39 AM

Hey - notice that Goldhawk road last posted at 07:13 PM - you guys have been fighting with him for eight hours since, and he hasn't even been here.
Same thing happened with the Nazi threads.
-joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 03:19 AM

There is also one who is posting to the Gaza thread and one other. Try as he might, he can't quite disguise his style or a certain thing he does with punctuation. That one is Canadian.

This Guest isn't. I don't think Canucks write that poorly.

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 03:07 AM

Something familiar about spelling mistake in title.

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 03:06 AM

We have always had a few (or possibly one) rabidly anti British Guest poster(s)

He /they have stared using a new tactic.

They post as if they are British to make us look like a nation of racist, sectarian bigots.
It has happened on the Irish threads too.
Be suspicious.

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:30 PM

I am now aware of that thank to you. And I am glad the investigation is reopened.

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:24 PM

Peace it is very topical in the UK. A leading policeman has been uncovered as taking a bung during the investigation today and the BBC aired a remarkable documentary on it tonight.

Following today's revelations the police have reopened the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:52 PM

''I reckon that every nigger should be chopped mate

and they should be left with nothing but fucking stumps.'

The racist Neil Acourt, filmed in December 1994, at Footscray Rd, Eltham.


That is from

website.lineone.net/~grandlaf/Lawr.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:31 PM

Also from the Socialist Worker Online:

(part of a longer article)

"Neil Acourt and David Norris got 18 months for trying to run down an off-duty black police officer on the same road in Eltham where Stephen was murdered."

Hell, they sound like fine upstanding people to me. Piss off, Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:28 PM

PS: There is no statute of limitations on murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:21 PM

The above is quoted from The Socialist Worker Online: 17 August, 2002, Issue 1813.

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:18 PM

Very topical thread you've started. The incident took place in 1993.

"Racist attacks increased by 210 percent after the British National Party set up its headquarters in Eltham in the early 1990s. In addition to Stephen Lawrence, Rohit Dougal and Rolan Adams were murdered. People in the area who campaigned to close down the BNP headquarters say the Nazi presence is still leaving a legacy."

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: skipy
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:17 PM

STOP THIS THREAD NOW
SKIPY

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: John O'L
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:16 PM

I can believe it. Murdock's bread & butter.

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:16 PM

and of course they are too "honourable" to sue for defamation

story here

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:15 PM

He's talking about the racist killers of black teenager Steven Lawrence, who, allegedly through a combination of police ineptitude and corruption, are still free thirteen years after the vicious stabbing of a lad who was walking home on the streets of South London.

The same fine young men who produced videos of themselves with foot long knives, practising stabbing people, and who are also allegd to have stabbed a number of others at around the same period.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: GUEST,Goldhawk Road
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:13 PM

Five young British men were blamed on a murder. They were tried and released without charge. Now the British media is hounding them, still blaming them because a hate filled family demand a head to roll. Simple as that. Understand now ?

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: GUEST,Goldhawk Road
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:09 PM

Yes they are fine young men sir one is a cousin of mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:07 PM

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Trail by British Media
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:03 PM

Heavy irony in that last post I think. "These fine young men" rather gives it away.