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Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore
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Subject: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: Gedpipes Date: 27 Jul 06 - 04:59 AM 'I watched a programme at the weekend called Folk Britannia. It was a documentary about the rise of folk music in Britain from the 40's to the present day. A major theme was songs of the working man. It just so happens that I have been reading a lot about folklore this year because I reckon entrepreneur stories are a contemporary form of folklore. Entrepreneur stories make sense as folklore as stories of the people. However folksongs are more problematic. Folksongs are obviously an integral part of folklore but nowhere to my knowledge is there a body of songs about entrepreneurs. There are however many songs / ballads about heroic working men and women which are usually set to tragedy. This got me wondering why (in America) there appear to be no folk songs about entrepreneurs. Just to generalise a little. Scottish folk songs fostered (festered) a spirit of independence and anti-English sentiment. Irish Folk music fostered rebelliousness and a sense of fun. I know nothing of English folk songs. American / Irish / Scottish folk music can be considered to have a doxic element to it as in teaching moral values and such music can be regarded as an entrepreneurial medium (taking between cultures). Music is such an important part of our lives and identities that I find it surprising it has been overlooked as a cultural script. In Scotland Robbie Burns anthem "A Man's a Man for A That" springs to mind as it encapsulates the Spirit of independence of thought and mind.' I will collect some songs over the coming months as I encounter them but I'd be grateful for your generous input and ideas. I hope to turn some of this into a research paper. Perhaps folk music is an exploitable form of cultural capital. We sing as we work and probably work as we sing. There are whaling songs, fishing songs, farming songs, etc. If anyone wants to pm me off list please do so. Thanks Ged |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: Paul Burke Date: 27 Jul 06 - 05:23 AM "This got me wondering why (in America) there appear to be no folk songs about entrepreneurs." The workers wrote songs about workers. Leave it to Bill Gates and those guys from Enron to write songs about entrepreneurs. Or at least, if you write songs for them, make sure you charge what the market will stand. Les Barker did write Reinstalling Windows now I think of it... |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: DMcG Date: 27 Jul 06 - 06:03 AM Arguably, 'Jock Stewart' could be such a song, at least in some versions. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: Ernest Date: 27 Jul 06 - 07:59 AM Entrepeneurs generally don`t spend their time writing songs. They`d outsource this to professionals, if they`d feel the need to have songs about themselves (just like the anglo-irish gentility had tunes written for them by O`Carolan etc.). Also making money when you are already well-to-do lacks the romance you need for a song. So it can be expected that songs would deal with making a start - which wouldn`t be to different from a workers song. Muirshin Durkin would qualify, wouldn`t it? Someone writing songs to make a living will write for a market - and the general public would be a bigger market than just the section of entrepeneurs. Workers on the other hand were a big enough segment of the market to find a economic niche. Another question: what about farmers - they work with their hands, but still they are their own masters? I am curious with what you will come up. Please keep us informed, it is an interesting idea. Regards Ernest |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: Franz S. Date: 27 Jul 06 - 12:02 PM Most entrepreneurs are not wealthy. The vast majority of them are people who open small businesses to see if they can make a go of being one's own boss. And the vast majority of businesses are quite small. The line between small business and artisan is a very hard one to draw. That said, I don't know why there aren't songs about it, or maybe there are and I just don't know about them. Folktales about entreprenuership could easily include "The Little Tailor, or Seven at one Blow" and "Puss in Boots". How about Pecos Bill? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: Gedpipes Date: 27 Jul 06 - 12:12 PM Franz. Have you lots of evidence for all the statements in your first paragraph? The suggestions in your 2nd paragraph are useful - thank you |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: Richard Bridge Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:31 PM "I'm the man, the very fat man, that waters the worker's beer" |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: Snuffy Date: 27 Jul 06 - 08:50 PM Franz. Have you lots of evidence for all the statements in your first paragraph? Which of those statements would you dispute? Franz S is making the reasonable assumption that "entrepreneur" is equivalent to "self-employed". Professional folk singers are entrepreneurs. Would you regard most of them as wealthy or running large businesses? For every Bill Gates or Donald Trump there are thousands of plumbers, window cleaners, shopkeepers, market gardeners etc running their own business without being "wealthy". |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: Charley Noble Date: 27 Jul 06 - 10:04 PM "I am a folksinger, a very fat folksinger, and I play everything in G..." Well, how's that for a start? Cheerily, Charley Noble, who's actually waxing thinner! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Jul 06 - 12:10 AM
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: GUEST,Mike Miller Date: 28 Jul 06 - 12:40 AM There are lots of entrepreneur songs (Don't make me spell that again). We call them trade songs. We call them tinker songs or weaver songs or, you get the idea. There is a dirth of songs about being a corporate giant but, as has been pointed out, entrepreneurship is no more defined by Trump than the average golfer is by Tiger Wood. I will admit that I can't think of any storekeepers songs. Mike |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Jul 06 - 02:30 AM Hmmm. I guess I think of an entrepreneur somewhat unfairly, as somebody who makes money out of nothing - like a salesman or manager, not a craftsman or artisan. "Rigs of the Time" makes mention of storekeepers and other businessmen, but not in a complimentary fashion. Strictly speaking, I think an entrepreneur is one who manages the financial end of business, not an artisan. Whether the entrepreneur makes money or not, I don't think it's the kind of work that inspires singers of songs. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: Ernest Date: 28 Jul 06 - 03:10 AM Ged, Franz`s statement about most entrepeneurs not being rich wealthy is true according to my knowledge. The chambers of commerce will have statistics about this. Interestingly, over here (Germany) most jobs are provided by small to medium-sized businesses, not by the big international companies everybody thinks about when it comes to "entrepeneurs". Since someone mentioned Bill Gates: didn`t he start out from a garage like a lot of big businesses (including bands)? Maybe the reason that there are no folk-songs about that is that his business needed ELECTRICITY? ;0) Best Ernest |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: Paul Burke Date: 28 Jul 06 - 03:42 AM The important thing is first to make the word "entrepreneur" mean something. You can redefine it to mean everybody who is not an unskilled labourer if you want, but then you need a different word for the big boys. The word originally meant "middleman"- i.e. wholesaler as ditinct from retailer, engrosser, forestaller, one who uses his capital to control a market.In more recent times it has come to mean someone who uses capital (his own, or more commonly other people's) to create a growing business. The aim of the business is to grow, to increase the capital, and the trading (manufacturing, importing, etc.etc.) are merely the means of creating that growth. Most small self- employed, independent traders don't see it that way. They see their business as a way of earning a living, and growth is usually a fortunate side effect if it happens- it's enough if the business survives. Few would nowadays refer to these people as entrepreneurs. Which brings me back to songs about them. To create a body of specialist song, you need a community with sufficent coherence, and a degree of isolation- in other words, they spend their work and leisure times together. Entrepreneurs probably meet those criteria- when they aren't dealing largely with each other, they are "networking" on thge golf course, in the gym, in the more upmarket restaurants. So perhaps they DO have a body of "trade" songs, but no one has collected them yet. Anyone fancy getting out the old wax cylinders and hanging round Augusta? Not entrepreneurs, but at least professionals: Song o' the Insurance Men -------------------------- We cover you 'gainst fire and flood Wey ho endowment! But not riots, warrs nor acts of God, Wey ho endowment! Over a period of fifty years Wey ho endowment! Unless of course you're in arrears, Wey hey and up your premium! The Accountancy Shanty ---------------------- When I was young I ran away To accountancy one day, With pencil, paper, collar and stud Accountancy was in my blood, Ch: So scribble away and balance the books And sing an accountancy shanty! I chartered an accountant at the age of twenty-two Ch. So raise a glass of medium dry sherry To the golden age of VAT. Ch. (Both by Neil Innes I think.) |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: GUEST,Jack Campin Date: 28 Jul 06 - 06:18 AM "The Smith's a Gallant Fireman" is exactly the song the original poster wants. Look it up in the Greig-Duncan collection. It's like Samuel Smiles set to strathspey time. I've never heard anybody sing it, don't expect to, and would probably excuse myself for a pee if I did. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: GUEST Date: 28 Jul 06 - 02:27 PM I love the fantasy you folks have about most businesses being started by poor people. Do you know how much it costs to buy or start a real business these days? Yes, you can start hiring yourself out as a shoeshiner, plumber, or consultant or whatever and be self-employed on a shoestring. But to me an entrepreneur is someonw who starts a real business that employs other people. To start a restaurant or gas station or whatever costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: Snuffy Date: 28 Jul 06 - 05:56 PM But to me an entrepreneur is someone who starts a real business that employs other people. Some agree with your definition: others apply it far wider, for instance. Likewise to some people a folk singer is someone who sells thousands of albums and commands huge fees for a gig. But not everyone thinks so. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: GUEST Date: 29 Jul 06 - 12:39 PM entrepreneur or oportunist! Stewart story called "The Vinegar Bottle". Old couple who live in a vinegar bottle are miraculously given a bungalow to live in. Complain that the bungalow is not big enough - are given a house - complain house is not big enough - given a mansion - complain mansion is not big enough - given a castle - etc, end up back in the vinegar bottle. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: GUEST,Mike Miller Date: 30 Jul 06 - 12:05 AM Paul Burke makes a cogent point. Folk songs imply a folk, or representative group. Entrepreneurs are, by nature, individualists and, when they employ others, they form a separate group of their employees who, often, produce folksongs of their own. Sharecroppers, cowboys, miners, factory workers are, by definition, societies with their own lore, legends and songs. It's not that money men aren't musical, it's that they do not constitute a defineable "folk". Unlike their employees, the entrepreneur's peers are his competitors, not his colleagues. I believe that the same holds true for graphic artists. I know no songs from the fine art community. (I'm not talking about songs like "Vincent", which is about a painter but not from a painter.) It's tough to write about a group that doesn't really exist. Mike |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: Richard Bridge Date: 30 Jul 06 - 04:40 AM "The tailor he stole broadcloth to keep those three rogues warm" Entrepreneurs are largely seen as exploiters of the common man, not to be celebrated. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: GUEST,Russ Date: 30 Jul 06 - 10:59 AM EXTREME ABSTRACTION ALERT! Why aren't there songs about the activity x? The people who engage in x see no significant benefits to be gained from writing songs about x. The people who engage in x see no significant benefits to be gained from paying someone else to write songs about x. The songwriters who do NOT engage in x see no significant benefits to be gained from writing songs about x. Bottom line, if there are no songs about x it is because nobody wants to hear songs about x. To me, the more interesting question is why is everybody interested in songs about the relatively few activities that generate songs. My guess is that if entrepreneurs wanted to hear songs about entrepreneurship such songs would exist. We'd probably be awash in them. Every journalist/poet/author/songwriter is apparently required to create at least one item about how hard it is to create an article/poem/story/song. Entrepreneurs don't seem to have the same requirements. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: GUEST Date: 30 Jul 06 - 04:07 PM Guest Russ, if journalists, authors, poets and songwriters write about the struggles of of their lives (and God knows they do) it is only because those guys are self centered and insular. As a card carrying member of each of those catagories, I can attest to that. And, now, here's a little song about my grandson..... Mike |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: GUEST,Mike Miller Date: 30 Jul 06 - 11:18 PM I just noticed that the thread is titled "Entrepreneur Stories as Folklore" and, as such, there are lots of stories about self made millionaires in traditional lore. In fact, it is the American dream. We love reading about the Astors, the Kennedeys, the Rothchilds, William Randolph Hearst, Old John D., Henry Ford and all the other rags to riches tales. When the Biography Channel does Millionaire Week, their rating soar. We want to hear about Ray Kroc and Warren Buffet. The tabloids are filled with tales of the titans. It is only on the song front that the nabobs are being negated. Mike |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: GUEST Date: 30 Jul 06 - 11:47 PM I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings
UK Idjets!
What "precisely" do you believes the blues is all about? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: Gedpipes Date: 31 Jul 06 - 04:08 AM thats helpful guest. Keep at it |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: Jim Dixon Date: 31 Jul 06 - 03:01 PM This thread has caused me to wonder whether any of the famous captains of industry/robber barons/moguls/business magnates/industrialists (choose your term) of the 19th century had any songs written about them. Only 3 come to mind, and they're definitely satirical: JAY GOULD'S DAUGHTER SINCE HENRY FORD APOLOGIZED TO ME MY NAME IS MORGAN (BUT IT AIN'T J. P.) Anybody know of any others? It could be that other songs exist(ed) but they've been forgotten. It might be worth a search at places like The Library of Congress, The Levy Collection, Indiana University. I can't do it right now, but maybe later. I found this list at Wikipedia of the kind of men I have in mind: John Jacob Astor (real estate, fur) -- based in New York City Jay Cooke (finance)-- based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Daniel Drew (finance)-- based in the state of New York James Buchanan Duke (tobacco) -- based near Durham, North Carolina James Fisk (finance)-- based in the state of New York Henry Flagler (railroads)-- based in New York City and Miami, Florida Henry Ford (automobile)-- based in Dearborn, Michigan and the Detroit, Michigan metropolitan area. Henry Clay Frick (steel)-- based in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and New York City John Warne Gates (steel, oil) -- based in Chicago and Texas Jay Gould (finance, railroads)-- based in the state of New York and New York City Edward Henry Harriman (railroads)-- based in the state of New York Collis P. Huntington (railroads)-- based in California, Virginia, and New York James J. Hill (railroads)-- based in St. Paul, Minnesota J. P. Morgan (banking)-- based in New York City. Presently JPMorgan Chase & Co. John D. Rockefeller (oil, the Standard Oil company)-- based in New York City Leland Stanford (railroads)-- based in Sacramento, California and San Francisco, California Cornelius Vanderbilt (railroads, shipping)-- based in New York City Let's add to that list: Andrew Mellon William Randolph Hearst |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: Geoff the Duck Date: 31 Jul 06 - 03:29 PM UK Idjets! ??? Are they something like Ikjets - can we expect the HP-Shanty? The Epson railroad? The Canon firing? Quack! GtD. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: Gedpipes Date: 06 Aug 06 - 10:21 AM Jim Dixon Has anyone ever told you that you are a star? No? You are are a star Jim Dixon Thanks Ged |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Entrepreneurship stories as Folklore From: Scoville Date: 06 Aug 06 - 02:47 PM I'm not clear about what the Hell this thread is talking about but for some reason "Down On Penney's Farm" comes to mind, although it predates the era that was mentioned in the original post. After the Depression, everything was about war for five years. After the war, we had an economic boom and nobody wanted to think about being downtrodden and poor any more. People were supposed to be out buying new things and making America the world of the future, and all that nonsense. I'm not saying there weren't plenty of downtrodden and poor around, just that that was hardly the postwar ideal and there wasn't much of a market for it on the popular music scene. I'm sure there were people writing songs about [entrepreneurs or whatever we're talking about here] but they weren't the ones on the top 40 lists. I wonder if part of the problem is that that kind of thing is really a topical song, and topical songs have limited shelf lives. Nobody's talking much about J.P. Morgan any more, so even if there were 10,000 songs about him, they wouldn't mean much to a thirtyish somebody like me, and would mostly pass out of the popular repertoire. Even recent songs like "I'm Changing My Name to Chrysler" don't make sense to the age group that is the target audience of pop music. |
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