Origins: Fiddlers Green (author)

Subject: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: r.padgett
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 03:08 AM

The Seventh Stream ~ is a a film I have just watch the last 10 minutes and lo and behold I was intrigued that Fiddlers Green was being played and I thought what was the time the play was set in (not sure) and where was it set? Why Ireland of course

This was on the Hallmark Channel my favourite channel and the film was accredited to Hallmark as well in 2001

Today (when I was watching the film) is Monday July 31st 2006 and the tune was played on the fiddle at approx 7.45 am. A further variation was also played later

Did John Conolly get a mention, you have got the answer. I do hope you got some Royalties John!!

By the way enjoyed 'grumpy' old men at Warwick FF with Bill Whaley and Dave Fletcher

Ray

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: Betsy
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 06:32 AM

Hiya Padge ,

Did Bill Meek assist John , I 'm pretty sure he did on some others , Grimsby Lads , Three Score an' ten,
Have you got Booker to come to Saltburn ? I hope so.
If not I'll sith 'ee

Cheers

Betsy.

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 06:53 AM

According to this page, the film was set in 1909 - a bit early for Fiddlers Green.

I can't see John Connelly mentioned in the credits here

If it was just the tune you heard, could it have been Taurpalin Jacket you heard?

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 08:30 AM

>>I can't see John Connelly mentioned in the credits here<<

I can but spelt wrong - should be Conolly

Has this bloke been getting all of John's royalties http://www.johnconnellypresents.com/?

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: r.padgett
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 09:07 AM

Probably going to wrong Conolly?

We are back to Tarpaulin Jacket are we ? is this identical with Fiddlers Green song music?

Yes Bill Meek did cowrite with John C

Three Score and Ten isnt one of his!!

Some really nice songs coming out of the East Coast again check out Dave Evardson and his 'North Wall', and Linda from Hissyfit and her Peridot [Luckiest sailor] and the Minerva (hot off the press)!!

Booker isnt coming to Saltburn Betsy , but he is going to Whitby for the week

See you at Saltburn

Ray

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 09:13 AM

Opps, wrong link for credits. Try this

-------
is this identical with Fiddlers Green song music?

There is a MIDI from the link I gave. The Fiddlers Green verse does not exist but there is a similarity between its chorus and Tarpaulin Jacket.

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: Goldengob
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 09:14 AM

John once told me - if the memory isn't fading - he originally wrote "wrap me up in me hobsocks and jumper" in the chorus and it was Bill Meek who suggested "oilskins" otherwise I believe the rest is his own.
Dave

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 09:21 AM

Years back at Cleethorpes Folk Festival, Bill Meek told the story of the song.
Fiddlers Green was mentioned in a newspaper column known as "The Old Codgers", which answered obscure questions sent in by members of the public. John and Bill saw the article and decided that the subject of a Fishermans Heaven" ought to have a song written, so each set out to see who could write the best song on the theme. After comparing songs they both decided that John had won the bet.
So, somehere there is another song by Bill Meeks also about fiddlers Green.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: r.padgett
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 09:35 AM

I have just listened to Tarpaulin Jacket, Dying Airman etc on Midi and it isnt Fiddlers Green tune

some give Click go the shears for Tarpaulin Jacket

We really ought to be able to lay this to rest!

Fiddlers Green tune and words belongs to John Conolly and so do the Royalties (give summat to Bill if you get owt!)

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 09:40 AM

Just in case there is any confusion, I have not said Fiddler's Green, tune and words are not JC's - they are. I do however believe there are similarities with the chorus of FG and TJ, and as just believe hearing those parts is "confusable" to some, and yes, I have known it happen and thought given the date the film was set, it was a possibility in this case.

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: Cats
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 11:35 AM

Fiddlers Green is actually a small village just off the A30 in Cornwall on the Perranporth road! It's been there a very, very long time....

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: GEST
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 11:37 AM

John Connolly's date on Fiddlers Green is 1966 and the page linked herein has a score, MIDI file, and some chords.

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 02:57 PM

Here are (partial) Songfile licensing results from the Harry Fox Agency, http://www.harryfox.com. I see Connolly is on top of the list, but what are all those others?

Your search for Song Title: fiddlers green returned 94 song(s), 15 of which are displayed.
Song Title	HFA Song Code	Writer
FIDDLER'S GREEN	F07185	W. CONNOLLY
FIDDLER'S GREEN	F1530I	JOHNNY FAY, GORDON DOWNIE, ROBERT BAKER, ROBERT GORDON SINCLAIR, JOSPEH PAUL LANGLOIS
FIDDLER'S GREEN	F00811	ARR.: R. SARC
FIDDLER'S GREEN	F0709P	WILL R MILLAR
FIDDLERS GREEN	931023	TRAD. ARR. WOLFTONES
FIDDLER'S GREEN	F22331	TOMLINSON, MALCOLM
FLOWER OF FIDDLERS GREEN	F07733	TOMMY SANDS
FIDDLER ON THE GREEN	F0956U	JON SCHAFFER, HANS JUERGEN KUERSCH
FIDDLERS CREEK	F1367Z	HERSCHEL SIZEMORE
ANSWERING MACHINE (CEVIN FISHER'S GREEN WORLD MIX)	A2071N	CURTIS JONES
BEFORE THE RING ON YOUR FINGER TURNS GREEN	B29060	B. & F. BRYANT
THE FIDDLER (FROM '26 GERMAN FOLK SONGS')	985775	BRAHMS TRANS. HAROLD HEIBERG
GREEN LAND WHALE FISHERIES	934170	TRAD. ARR: THE POGUES
FIDDLERS DREAM	F08238	ARTHUR SMITH
FIDDLER'S DREAM	F24021	HUDDIE LEDBETTER

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: Greg B
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 03:22 PM

Can't say anything for royalties, but I did give John a
mighty fine burrito once.

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: Little Robyn
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 03:58 PM

FIDDLER'S DREAM F24021 HUDDIE LEDBETTER
must be either a different Leadbelly or a different Fiddler's dream because he died in December 1949 and the song wasn't written for awhile after that!
We visited Fiddler's Green in Cornwall, in 1990.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: r.padgett
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 06:46 PM

Its a mess!

John Conolly not W Connolly, wrote Fiddlers Green

Its not trad arranged! How can it be?

Who is Johnny Fay and his mates? Is this the same song?

Tommy Sands is probably a different song based on Fiddlers Green

Which song do the Pogues have listed? Greenland Whale Fisheries isnt Fiddlers Green!

Come on you lot own up!!
Ray

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: Betsy
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 06:39 AM

Hiya Padge,
People often do the "Arranged" bit to songs.
It's quite naughty, as, Royalties are divided 4/12ths to the writer of the words , 4/12ths to writer of the music, and, 4/12ths to the arranger.
A bit antiquated but that's how the PRS distribute royalties.
I wonder if these people try to claim (say) if John got £6.00 a time it was on a radio programme , do they try try to claim £2.00 when and if their version is sang on a radio programme.
I believe, in the first place the "arranger" should have written permission from the author/composer/arranger to "tinker" with the Original.
It's a shame Booker won't make Saltburn-he owes me a pint .

Cheersy
Betsy .

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 06:46 AM

Ey up Betsy

I hope John's getting summat to start with as 4/12 of nowt is nowt! for example 4/12ths of trad arranged = zilch

Its down to 'policing' by the PRS, I wonder whether they do any checks at all to see who was first and look for similarities?

I dont understand PRS and from what I have heard, tis a minefield

Bring Vin down to Whitby FF one day if he'll come, pints on Booker!!

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: Betsy
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:36 AM

Hope you all know and noticed from Padgies intro - Yorkshire celebrates its'" National " Day today Tuesday 1st August.

Your maths are correct , but in some perverted way , some people do this type of thing in the equally perverse hope that if the Trad song suddenly ( for some strange reason) becomes a hit , then they think they may have some sort of finacial stake in it.
I remember Simon and Garfunkel doing a not too dis-similar thing with Scarborough Fair , but, as they say," Thats another story and so it is " !! Nevertheless - a lot of money involved

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: Girl Friday
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 05:03 PM

I put a posting about this on but it seems to have disapperared into cyberspace. Perhaps it was too controversial.

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 05:10 PM

Thanks for the info CATS but the Fiddlers Green that JC wrote about is the Folkie/fishermans heaven.

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: Girl Friday
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 05:11 PM

Ha. It took that one so I'll try again. I have a Burl Ives Album of unknown date,but he looks 40ish, called Down to theSea in Ships. It's on Brunswick LAT8142. Says it's a microgroove flexible record.There is a track on it called Tarpaulin Jacket. I could not believe it! The tune and many of the words were the same as John's. It is described as a 19th century English sea song, with a tune of Irish origin. Perhaps John put it through the folk process, the same as many others do. The blue clicky to Tarpaulin Jacket mentions lancers. Thought they were soldiers.

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: Betsy
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 03:19 AM

Girl Friday - lancers couldn't be a roundabout reference to the harpoon (whaling ) could it ?

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 04:41 AM

Lancers w/b harpooners agreed

Burl Ives born 1909 and famous actor and singer in US

I have reservations regarding the Tapaulin Jacket tune and I do not believe that the MIDI for it on here is the same as Fiddlers Green as I stated above

Clearly 1940s is before 1960s when John wrote Fiddlers Green

The plot thickens!!

Ray

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: GUEST,GUEST - John Conolly
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 06:59 AM

Thanks, Ray , for sticking up for me, as the "onlie begetter" of the song "FIDDLERS' GREEN",although as GoldenGob points out, Bill Meek did contribute the "Oilskins" in the chorus .. I originally wrote"Dress me up in me ABB SOCKS and jumper" ,until Bill pointed out that no-one outside Grimsby would know about these specialist fishermen's oiled-wool feet-protectors ...
      Geoff the Duck has the story of how the song was written pretty much correct ,except that there was no "competition" involved - Bill and I each went off independently and wrote a song - and when we turned up at the next "Broadside" rehearsal with two Fiddlers'Greens,Bill very kindly said he thought mine was the best,so that was the one we learned and sang..
    The song is certainly not consciously based on "Tarpaulin Jacket",although obviously that's where I got the idea for the first line of my chorus - and as far as I know the words and tune are original -although I will concede that the first line of my verse does bear a passing resemblance to "The Dark-eyed Sailor" (old songwriters' dodge - change the rhythm and they'll never notice ..)
    Most of the "alternative authors" given in that publishers' list are a mystery to me,although I did know that the Wolftones had recorded MY Fiddlers' Green,but didn't know they had put it down as "Trad" . Interesting... I haven't heard Tommy Sands' song "Flower of Fiddlers' Green" ,but I imagine it has something to do with the wonderful "Fiddlers' Green Festival" in Rostrevor ,which the Sands Family are instrumental in organising,and where I had the pleasure of singing some years ago.
Re "Three Score and ten" - yes ,Bill Meek and myself have both been flattered to have the song attributed to us,but it was in fact written by Grimsby fisherman William Delf in the 1880's.
Any further queries ,or alternative versions of "Fiddlers'Green"? Bring 'em along to my Songwriting Workshop at Whitby Folk Week ...
Hi Greg! Thanks for the burrito! - still trying to get a re-booking at Mystic Seaport!

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 07:23 AM

Girl Friday, a lancer is a soldier, originally armed with a lance.

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 08:25 AM

Great song John.
And all your others.
Keith.

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: r.padgett
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 01:32 PM

Hello John!

Echoed sentiment Keith A

and sucks to PRS!

Hope you are getting summat with all the exposure, if not it dunt work

Ray

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: Girl Friday
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 07:28 PM

Great to have the man himself in on this debate. I didn't compare tunes to a MIDI(whatever that is). I was just stating that a recording made probably pre 1966 contained what I thought to be similar words and tune to Fiddlers Green. I think John was echoing my thoughts that it had been folk processed. That's something to discuss after your Friday Folk gig in October John.

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:13 PM

John, if you pay very close attention to the U.S. made-for-TV Civil War movie "The Hunley," you'll hear your tune played and described by one of the characters as an "old Irish" tune learned from his ma!

That would make it 1850 or so when you actually wrote it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 03:45 AM

Do we believe in reincarnation

Ray

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: GUEST,Fishermans' Friend's Friend
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 07:07 AM

So has Bill Meek's FG been recorded, commercially or for posterity? If so, where is it available?

If not, and surely it can't be THAT bad, any plans for it??

Just wondering....

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: Cats
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 04:33 PM

Hi Georgiansilver.. you think I don't know that!!!

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 05:51 PM

The second line of both songs contain the same melodic fragment...

"And say a young buffer lies low"

"No more on the docks I'll be seen"

Other than that, the composer should be given ample credit for a new and original work.

Almost every song created contains elements of a forebear including sophisticated theater songs.

It's OK to steal if you create a good new song out of it. Why not use a song as a trigger for another one?

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 06:02 PM

There is a Civil War song by the same title. No other connection, as far as I can tell. (It's in DifiTrad).

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 04:06 AM

Thanks Dick it is very important to differentiate to avoid confusion in like named songs

Of course the PRS people clearly are a waste of time and so the system is deficient. Are there any PRS people who visit Mudcat who can enlighten us as to what is wrong and how it all works?

Ray

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: Girl Friday
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 08:38 PM

It is possibly unwise to invite input from PRS persons. They'd stop us al;l performing each other's songs.Frank Hamilton has a very good point though. I can't see anything wrong in borrowing from others if you get a good song out of it. That is the folk process. Trouble is that not all performers credit their inspirers.

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: GUEST,Blackcatter
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 01:34 AM

John (and all)

Fiddlers Green was the first song that I learned that put me on the path to playing and singing trad., and not-so trad., English, Irish, etc. music.

Thanks for getting me started. My life has truly been enriched from the learning and performing songs such as yours.

And by the way, apparently you wrote it about the time that I was born, some 40 years ago.

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 03:07 AM

Subject: Fiddlers Green Author
From: Pat Gaughan
Date: 17-Nov-06 - 04:35 PM

Hi! I (like many others it seems) need to find the writer of Fiddlers Green. A John Connelly wrote into the forum. Is it possible to get an e-mail address for him, or forward him mine? Mine is: [e-mail] Thank you so much. Pat Gaughan

---

Subject: RE: Fiddlers Green Author
From: Malcolm
Date: 17-Nov-06 - 06:03 PM

For contact details, see http://www.yorkshire-folk-arts.com/directory/performers_c.html

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green (author)
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 03:27 AM

John's surname is Conolly, not Conelly.

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green (author)
From: r.padgett
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 02:07 PM

John is fit and active, writing and performing his own songs in UK and further afield

Ray

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green (author)
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 02:18 PM

And will be at Market Rasen in April & Novemeber 2007. He could almost walk it. :-)

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green (author)
From: GUEST,Another guest
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 02:19 PM

I notice Joe's input quotes the Harry Fox Agency-roughly the US equivalent of UK PRS-Does the PRS offer a copyright search? Are they that organised?
Incidentally,Girl Friday's advice on PRS seems sound-are they likely to find we're not making the appropriate contribution to the Macartney settlement?

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green (author)
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 02:35 PM

I've had in my mind that "Fiddler's Green" was once entered into a songwriting competition but was beaten my " The Ballad of Patience Kershaw". Where did I get this idea from?

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green (author)
From: r.padgett
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 03:14 PM

Chronologically speaking I dont think this works Tunesmith!

Ray

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green (author)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 06:08 PM

A somewhat drifting comment about the US Cavalry "Fiddlers Green" in the DT - with its note "as far as we can tell, immediate post-Civil War".

I'd suspect it's a good bit later than that. It sounds very reminiscent of Kipling, towards the end of the century. I'm not suggesting he wrote it, but rather that whoever wrote it had read Kipling.

Particularly the last verse -

And so when man and horse go down
Beneath a saber keen,
Or in a roaring charge or fierce melee
You stop a bullet clean,
And the hostiles come to get your scalp,
Just empty your canteen,
And put your pistol to your head
And go to Fiddlers' Green.

Which echoes Kipling's:
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
         An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.

(The Young British Soldier)

If the Cavalry Fiddler's Green is indeed "immediate post civil war", of course, it might have been the other way round, with Kipling's poem being the echo...

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green (author)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 03:36 AM

I always thought the Leadbelly one was Fiddlers Dram, rather than Fiddlers Dream.

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green (author)
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 04:23 AM

r.padgett: I notice "Fiddler's Green" is copywrite 1970; surely, "The Ballad of Patience Kershaw" is also from that period.

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green (author)
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 04:26 AM

Of course, that should be "The Testament of Patience Kershaw".

Subject: RE: Origins: Fiddlers Green (author)
From: GUEST,Liverpool Lou
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 01:27 PM

I remember hearing Roy Bailey sing "The Testament of Patience Kershaw". I very powerful song.