BS: Is the Rapture Underway???

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 04:56 PM

bill-
firstly, DNA and soft tissue are not exactly the same thing are they?.
I was referring to the latter, and gave examples.
have you read about the mary switzer [not sure of spelling] discoveries in Montana?.she was resisted for some time ,it seems by her fellow evolutionists ,for her discoveries of blood residue and vessels.
why she still retains her evolutionism, I don't know.
maybe she believes as you do ,that every other branch of science confirms it!
yet other than affirming that to be the case,proof of such is lacking and evidence [as darwin himself conceded] is open to alternative explanation.

I have no fear of the "noise" around here.
it's fine by me, if anyone looking in see's how some people with degrees in front of their names have to resort to abuse and ridicule to counter an amateur!.it just confirms the saying "argument weak- shout like blazes!.
and anyone who suggests that all creationists are lazy and ignorant have not read much of CREATION.COM for example - or it doesn't serve their purpose to do so!- whatever deficiencies this creationist has.
as to dishonesty, it is not a Christian trait [or ought not to be] but it might be an evolutionary advantage!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 10:52 AM

The "Rapture" only exists within the minds of psychologically disturbed people.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 10:58 PM

"I am presuming that darwinists are now saying soft tissue can survive in dino bone for 68 million yrs."

No... they are NOT saying that. I am not sure where the confusion arose, but a few insects in amber is the only VERY old DNA anyone can authenticate.

",...esp macroevolution. it does explain what the theory posits, but in no way presents anything that demonstrates it's veracity."

They have evidence and data from thousands of sources in several different branches of science... all leading to the same basic conclusions. You wish to ignore all that in favor of 'trusting' someone's interpretation of those pieces of parchment, copied by monks several thousand years ago? That is "placing the dart, then drawing the target around it."

"btw,i am using a laptop at home"

Hmmm.. ever consider registering so all this doesn't have to be done in the threads? It gets pretty loud at times here.....

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 08:28 PM

I certainly will not be reading all the mass of articles on the subject that you linked to.i would be very surprised if it was anything more than the Darwinist interpretation of the same data that creationist scientists use in the alternative presuppositional approach to origins.

Nah, you won't be reading 'em. You won't be reading 'em (a) because you're a lazy bastard, (b) because you know they won't serve your purpose. Tell me: are all creationists as lazy and dishonest as you are?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 05:35 PM

I think we are talking at cross purposes bill.
maybe I was not clear enough, though I thought the context was clear.
when I said that the evidence points to dinos being much younger, I was referring [again] to the soft tissue finds that were such a surprise to the evolutionists involved.
I am presuming that darwinists are now saying soft tissue can survive in dino bone for 68 million yrs.
assuming that to be the case,scientific norms appear to have been radically revised to facilitate the evolutionary paradigm.
steve seems to have understood my meaning, judging by his challenge.
as I understand it ,it has been estimated that preservation of blood residue and other tissues would require a consistently low temperature over the claimed aeons, but this is apparently contrary to what evolutionism itself posits.
never-the-less I did look at some of your evolution 101 link,esp macroevolution. it does explain what the theory posits, but in no way presents anything that demonstrates it's veracity.
I certainly will not be reading all the mass of articles on the subject that you linked to.i would be very surprised if it was anything more than the Darwinist interpretation of the same data that creationist scientists use in the alternative presuppositional approach to origins.
for example cladistics being used either as evidence for common descent, or of a common designer.

btw,i am using a laptop at home.seven stars just happened to be where the folk club was at the time when I thought I should use something or other to start posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: frogprince
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 11:22 AM

"wild bird fat balls"...are those from ostriches, or what?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 08:00 AM

Fat Balls!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 02:11 AM

Possibly Bill.

But Freud works in mysterious ways.......

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 08:42 PM

I love the idea that my back garden is full of little dinosaurs flying around and eating my fat balls (I hope that means something to yanks).

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 06:26 PM

should there be a comma in that?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 05:34 PM

600 suckers!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 03:15 PM

Well, yeah, some of the smaller dinosaurs are believed to have survived the meteor strike 68 million years ago. Alligators, crocodiles, monitor lizards, lizards of all kinds, snakes, reptiles in general. . . .

But about the nearest thing we have these days to a Tyrannosaurus Rex is a barnyard chicken.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 03:04 PM

"we have the situation of evidence of very much younger dinos being ignored ...."

What evidence? There are, of course, 'some' creatures that science agrees have not changed much in a VERY long time, but that is explained if one looks for the relevant explanations.... and there are many creatures which have changed a lot- some rapidly.

Now... I found a link just this morning to this page, which is the first of many pages of the best 'simple' introduction to the claims and evidence and **history** of evolutionary theory I have seen. It goes & goes thru the steps, with fairly easy to read explanations and graphics.
Add to that this selection of articles by Stephen J.Gould and anyone can get a pretty good idea of the development of thinking about evolution. (Do NOT assume you already know the details and relevant ideas.)

Pete...I suggest you take some time browsing thru those sources...with as much as you can muster of an open mind that doesn't assume from the beginning that they are full of error and flaws.
I have read much of the Bible.. (I have 3-4 versions at home.)... and I have attended Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, Episcopalian, and Unitarian churches. I know the basics of theology, (studied it in college courses) both in history and in theory. In order to really discuss the differences we have, it is only fair that you have more information than just what your church and Creation.com offers.
(I really don't understand whether you have internet access anywhere other than Seven Stars...you mentioned, I believe, a laptop once. I know you have 'looked at' various links I've posted, but following the Berkley link above and reading some of the Gould articles is not a 15 minute exercise.)

So? What do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 02:51 PM

So you know all about favourable conditions, do you? Go on, tell us what you know!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 02:46 PM

musket = evasive answer.
have you read the report of mary swittzer's discovery steve?
she is an evolutionist herself, and could'nt believe it .she was not ,at first prepared to accept ,and i'm sure she was aware of the other preservations you mentioned.
and just stating something is 8,000 yr old ,don't prove it is.
and inferring that the interpretation of dating methods is always right ,don't prove it either.
my point remains - such soft tissue as found in dino bone was not expected - even in the most favourable conditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 12:59 PM

Sadly, you're right and I'm too optimistic. :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 10:57 AM

...the only person fooled by your dishonesty is you.

If only that were true - there's thousands (millions?) more out there just like pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 09:22 AM

if steve can quote scientists that were on record pre 90.s that expected it ,he may have an argument.

Yeah, sure. We were all running round insisting that it be put on record that we were "expecting it." Silly man.

As a matter of fact, I was using maceration techniques to study soft plant tissue (not fossil wood, in other words, though I studied that as well) from the Carboniferous and Jurassic in the late 60s/early 70s at Imperial College. I still have my drawings somewhere. You can walk on the beach at low spring tide at Westward Ho! and pick up superbly-preserved acorn cups that are 8000 years old, pre-Ark! Nothing like a bit of clay and salt water away from oxygen! Soft tissue of insects, preserved in amber for tens of millions of years or more, has been known about for nearly two hundred years. You see, pete, you pick up snippets of stuff here and there that you don't understand and dishonestly set aside the stuff that doesn't seem to help your yarn. For example, you won't be impressed by any of this because you reject the perfectly good science of radio-isotope dating. Sadly for you, the only person fooled by your dishonesty is you.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 07:37 AM

Resemblance?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 02:59 AM

Dinosaurs exist now. Or at least clever people can trace the line.

Our evolution going back to a form of star fish is also evident. Humans retain a physical resemblance to our star fish heritage and pete talks through his.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 12:13 AM

did I specify dna bill? .I probably mentioned it way back, but not this time, because that is not as firmly established as other soft tissue find in dinos.
when mary swittzer first made her discoveries she could not believe what she had found till multiple testings were done.
I take that as being in common with other MYO believers,could not believe such soft tissue would survive that long.
if steve can quote scientists that were on record pre 90.s that expected it ,he may have an argument.
but failing that- we have the situation of evidence of very much younger dinos being ignored because of evolutionary mindset.
so again I ask,- are not they now saying that soft tissue[eg blood residue] must be able to survive - because they [supposedly] know dinos lived millennia past?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 08:30 AM

Actual proof humans & clockwork pterodactyls existed 1 million years bce! DIY [Do it Yahweh!]

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket living and learning
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 06:03 PM

Greg. Much obliged for the link. I happily add Mr Cosby to my list.

Still a small list though and doesn't include any God botherers........

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 04:38 PM

There is a danger that Biblical literalists (fundamentalists) invariably fall into. They are convinced that they have the straight skinny, right out of the Bible. And anyone who does not believe that the Bible gives a literal history of the world are wallowing in ignorance.

The danger they invariably fall into is the sin of Pride. And Pride is one of the Seven Deadly Sins.

Beware!

Some of the most pompous, prideful people I have ever met are Biblical literalists—fundamentalists.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 03:23 PM

no-one believed soft stuff could survive 68 million yrs, even under the most favourable conditions.

How do you know no-one "believed" it? And why don't you stop being a complete arse and, instead, tell us a little more about your research into this "soft stuff"? What soft stuff? How was it allegedly preserved and what are your scientific reasons for thinking that such preservation is impossible? let's face it, pete. You know nothing at all about this, do you? I'll give you this much, though: you must have bloody big balls for you to be able to cheerfully and proudly parade your ignorance so publicly and so frequently.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 03:19 PM

bill= my point is still being skirted around, not addressed.
no-one believed soft stuff could survive 68 million yrs, even under the most favourable conditions.
according to evolutionism they must have.

Who 'didn't believe' that? Some researchers have found some quite old DNA... but claims of many million year old DNA have NOT been authenticated. So far, we agree that 68,000,000 is unlikely.
Now... the issue is this: your assertion that "according to evolutionism" "soft stuff" must have survived. I don't know where you find such a claim. Did I miss some link you made? The real point is that evolution, as a science and as a theory does NOT depend on antediluvian DNA evidence. There are many, many other aspects of the entire complex set of studies and analysis OF those studies & evidence that supports and enhances the basis of evolutionary theory.


here... read thru this long article an see what the relevant issues are! (In my not-so-copious 'spare' time, I am re-reading it, and following some of the links to some of the technical articles. It is slow going to really understand it all.)

All I can say right now is that the possible, but unlikely, existence of very ancient DNA does nothing to disprove evolution! That is just a side discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 02:43 PM

bill= my point is still being skirted around, not addressed.
no-one believed soft stuff could survive 68 million yrs, even under the most favourable conditions.
according to evolutionism they must have.
to quote your own words "....already committed to that answer"

as you say CMI are making an "attempt to sound technically sound" and I will pas by the biased qualifier for now.
you quoted ken ham- straw man argument?
howbeit I think he is right,he just didn't go into the technicalities.
the technicalities and studies are out there though.
I don't have it but
noahs ark-a feasibility study.woodmorrappe.

guest?   we do know about other flood stories.it is to be expected that as time and geography create distance that the original story gets corrupted.
whatever species there are now derived from the original animals that entered the ark, and contained all the information in their genes needed to diversify as they spread out.

steve,s response was predictable, he never disappoints.
maybe the reason that he did not point me to the part where the favoured races trod the evolutionary pathway, is that Darwin did only write about natural selection,or at least that was all he had evidence for.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 10:16 AM

The only person who wrote of Noah and the ark that I saw any point in was Marriot Edgar

Bill Cosby had a pretty good routine, too.
Click Here

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 09:16 AM

I find pointing and laughing has the same effect as attacking but without them being able to play the victim card.

Organised religions enjoy status in civilised societies that you would never give if they sprung up yesterday. Bigotry, hate, teaching children fantasy as truth, misogyny and up till recently freedom to bugger children whilst preaching love.

Of course, questioning them is by their standards an irrelevant medieval crime called blasphemy. I get fed up of pointing out that only club members can break club rules.

Dinosaurs didn't live at the same time as humans therefore the Noah story is just that, a story. You don't have to go any further in discussion or reason. The only person who wrote of Noah and the ark that I saw any point in was Marriot Edgar. And then for the entertainment value.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 05:40 AM

To take the story absolutely literally as it is written in the Bible and to thereby discount all the other ancient Great Flood survivor stories from so many other cultures is to base one's belief upon ignorance, willful or otherwise.

As indeed it is, done so balefully by pete and his ramshackle but quite dangerous bunch of literalist fellow-travellers, to base their belief on many another Bible yarn. Creationists, racists, homophobics and misogynists can and do find abundant succour in the good book, literally taken, for their detestable notions. When it comes to religious belief, I can respect private and quietly-held convictions even though I think they're deluded. People who force their beliefs on others, especially on children, and people who are so determined to be literalist that they sneer at anyone of far more measured views who happen to get in the way, are way beyond deserving respect in my view. Far from needing to be defended, they fully deserve to be attacked.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 01:51 AM

The last ice age ended about 10,000 years ago.

There are stories and legends that, characteristically, get greatly amplified in the telling, largely because, not having a clue as to how large the earth really is, some particularly cataclysmic event can expand itself in the telling to encompass the entire world.

Case in point, the tenacious legend of Atlantis. Satellite scans have given a pretty good picture of the oceans' bottoms, revealing previously unknown phenomena such as the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. But—there are no signs of a sunken continent in the Atlantic Ocean. There is, however, Thera, in the eastern Mediterranean, a fairly advanced civilization for the time, which perished in a monumental volcanic eruption, leaving only the ring-shaped island of Santorini, all that's left of a huge crater.

There is evidence that toward the end of the last ice age and for some time after, there was an ice dam blocking the Bosporus. There are also signs of villages at the bottom of the Black Sea. Putting two and two together, it appears that after the end of the ice age, the ice dam eventually melted and let the Mediterranean come flooding into the Black Sea. And the villages built on the hitherto dry bottom

This would have been cataclysmic, and to the locals, it could have seemed as if the flood covered the entire world.

This may have very well been the basis for the legend of a great, worldwide flood—and the basis of the Biblical story of Noah and the Arc.

There is overwhelming evidence that the dinosaurs perished in the aftermath of the Yucatan meteor strike some 65,000,000 years ago. Which, incidentally, gave mammals a chance to evolve.

And—whatever happened to unicorns?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 12:14 AM

There are quite similar stories to Noah and the Ark in ancient cultures all over the world....meaning: there are stories about a worldwide inundation in ancient times and various people who survived it by building boats or rafts and by finding high ground. The story about "Noah" is probably a story with a strictly local origin in one part of the Middle East, and it is probably symbolic of various survivors who rode out the flood, not just about the literal Noah and his immediate family. To take the story absolutely literally as it is written in the Bible and to thereby discount all the other ancient Great Flood survivor stories from so many other cultures is to base one's belief upon ignorance, willful or otherwise.

There are a great many animal species which would certainly not have been found at all in Noah's part of the world, and they also survived whatever happened, so Noah quite clearly would not have been instrumental in saving those species even if he saved some animals.

The story is probably symbolic of many different people who survived in many different places........a parable, in other words, not a literal tale of what happened.

North American Indians had ancient tales about a Great Flood too, and those tales mentioned some wise or heroic people who survived it by building boats or rafts and by getting to high ground. They were NOT talking about Noah! They were talking about other people in their own part of the world.

To think that the Noah story is the only story to be told about this event is, frankly, ridiculous....but people in any given culture in this world normally believe what they've been told in that culture providing they haven't heard any alternatives to it....and that has been the case with most Christians, Muslims, and Jews for the past few centuries. They were told about Noah. They were not told about all the other similar tales from other cultures and traditions.

What could have caused such a flood? A major change in the Earth's climate or the Earth's atmosphere, that's what...even a huge astronomical event like the passing of another large body in space affecting the Earth. And it may have been something that lasted a longer time and happened more gradually than is told in the Bible account.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 10:25 PM

and Pete... I really don't know what to say. I'll give YOU a boat 450 ft. long, and you see how many species...even juveniles... you can fit in. Your idea of 'plenty of room' is not consistent with math. Just the food for a number of species for 40 days would take a number of 'support arks'. You MUST do the math, not just assume "God & Noah had it all figured out."

"the recent discoveries relating to dinosaurs strongly suggest a younger age for them." No... they do not...except to those already committed to that answer.

As I said... Ken Ham is beyond careless and silly in his reasoning, I am sad that even you find his attempts useful. At least Creation.com makes an attempt to sound technically sound. Ken Ham just throws out assertions as if he were explaining Santa Claus to 4 year olds.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 10:12 PM

I thought I made a link to my original link to the Nietzsche story, but I messed it up...here 'tis..This is from several years ago

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 07:18 PM

Christ on a bike, pete has excelled himself this time. Do some science, pete. I believe there's a PhD going in Tosspottery at Chipping Sodbury Poly...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 07:06 PM

And the animals came in two by two.
And the bacteria came in two by four by sixteen by thirty two by sixth four by two hundred and fifty five by sixteen thousand three hundred and eighty four by. ....

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 07:00 PM

I don't remember quoting ken ham, bill.mind you, sounds good to me.
dinos were on the ark.
dinos grow progressively larger, so it would have been juveniles taken on board.
the ark measured 450 ft long and had plenty of room for all the original kinds of the creatures aboard.
the recent discoveries relating to dinosaurs strongly suggest a younger age for them.
previous to these discoveries no-one expected soft tissue and blood residue etc to survive 68 million yrs.
but ,of course ,they now know it can, because evolutionism is true [deliberate irony!]
I call that drastic scientific revision.i know that we been here before but I don't recall getting an admission yet that this is what is transpiring.
as you so often do bill,you assert generalizations, ie reel off various disciplines as unquestionably proving the long age,evolutionary pathway, when it is that very paradigm that is under question.i would say that was begging the question, though I suspect it may not technically be ,as that's your area of expertise.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 04:49 PM

Guess I missed it, Bill.

I heard that years ago. Didn't know it came from Nietzsche.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 11:52 AM

hmmm... can't find the post with German text.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 11:45 AM

Gee Don... that joke/story, phrased differently, comes directly from Nietzsche. I posted it and the original German several weeks ago. I had not encountered it before in modern, 'updated' language. It actually reads better in your format.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 11:25 PM

The story goes that all the Gods of Mt. Olympus had some pretty lively parties, and they had them fairly often, being a somewhat jolly crew—most of the time.

Often, Gods from other parts of the world would happen to drop in. Gitche Manitou beamed over from North America from time to time, and now and then Odin would make it down from the North.

On one occasion, a God worshiped by several tribes in the Near East, made it up to one of the bashes on Mt. Olympus. He was pretty sullen as Gods go, and while the usual crew were whooping it up and having a good ole time, he suddenly leaped up and shouted, "I am the one and only One True God!!"

When the rest of the Gods heard this, they all died laughing!!

Which explains why Yahweh is, indeed the Only Living God.

Except for Bacchus and Aphrodite, who had gotten drunk as a pair of skunks at the party, were under a table doing "rumpy-pumpy," and didn't hear Yahweh's pronouncement.

Which explains the prevalence, even these days, of booze and sex.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 07:27 PM

Yeah, here in NC the GOP statehouse and governor have shut down abortion clinics to "help protect women's health" and disenfranchised 400,000 voters because of 1 fraud case...

And these people all claim to be Christian??? Might of fact, made Christianity the state religion???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 04:29 PM

"quick" needs to be qualified to included "soon".

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 02:43 PM

And take 'em QUICK!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 10:05 AM

Back to the Rapture...

Please, Jesus, come round up these so-called Christians who are doing some pretty shameful stuff in your name...

Take 'um all...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 09:41 AM

Qs & As here:

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 01:08 PM

He sure did Greg. She sure did.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 12:48 PM

"...,things that evolutionists have to do drastic science revision on to bolster up Darwinism."

Sorry, Pete... but that is simply not true. Science explains and modifies the details as new data is discovered. They (honest ones) do NOT 'modify' in the sense of inventing spurious data & fallacious logic to artificially bolster theories.

"I am not saying that those who do trust the scripture do so in the face of evidence to the contrary,..."

But I do say that!.... scientific discoveries are evidence. You cannot deny the basics of evolutionary theory without complex, illogical twisting of the implications of radiocarbon dating, DNA analysis, continental drift, glaciation, geological deformation and historical writings NOT related to the Bible (no ancient manuscripts, cave paintings or Aboriginal art depicts dinosaurs).
Yesterday, I stumbled onto the website of Ken Ham, who heads http://www.answersingenesis.org/

He has a number of 1 minute sound bytes which supposedly 'explain' various answers to evolutionist claims. I was beyond appalled at the shallow, silly and distorted simplifications he made.... along with other grossly inaccurate portrayals of scientific data. He asserts specifically that dinosaurs DID live alongside man, and claims that Noah dealt with them. His careless reasoning will convince only those who are already emotionally committed to his position already.

I looked up 'creation museum' and found this discussion on a wiki page. It shows, in as neutral a way as possible under the circumstance, what the claims are and the refutations of them by scientists & educators.

Similar page on Answers_in_Genesis

Pete... these issues are separate from the idea of just believing in a God as the beginning of all things, since it may be impossible to prove that either way.... but what has happened AFTER 'creation', however it may have happened can be studied and measured and analyzed. Some things cannot be ignored just because one chooses to depend on, as I have said, translations and interpretations of ONE 'scripture'.


(Yes, I'm sounding pretty harsh about some things, but Ken Ham and his "Ham-handed" approach just raised my hackles.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 12:16 PM

God must be REALLY fond of ignorance - he's created so very much of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket wondering
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 12:05 PM

Here pete, I know some accuse you of not understanding what you write, but considering you don't use capitals except when saying God or I, (elevating yourself a bit there aren't we?) I note that you must have done a cut and paste then gone back and lower cased it. Since when did a British bloke write "math"?

Regarding the post, I got as far as Genesis being portrayed as a historical narrative and gave up. It isn't so stop saying it is. Do you allow children in your church ? If so, I must send an alert to the local safeguarding children board. Saying tradition is truth can stain them for life. Use a mirror if you need an example of how it can screw you up.

There is so much for people to discover, question, find answers to and enjoy that to saddle them with medieval superstition is awful, it really is.

Look at respectable churches where the moral code and parable explanations form the basis. They aren't trying to set back human understanding yet you and your literal idiotic friends are how the poor buggers are judged by rational people. No wonder their relevance is questioned when they see how you disgrace faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 06:01 AM

"Evolutionly"? Heheh...

Evolutionary biologists do not need to do drastic revisions, as science is cumulative (a bit like natural selection really). Ideas are constantly revised in the light of new evidence (unlike you, we accept evidence). There is no drastic lurching by the backroom boys to keep the show on the road. Once again you insult science and scientists from your standpoint of extreme ignorance. Of course,if you can demonstrate all this drastic change in thinking, I'll eat my words. But that's about as likely as a duff bottle of Hirondelle.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 09:29 PM

when I say that too many Christians are giving more credence to Darwin than the plain reading of the historical narrative of genesis [and other scriptures that support that reading]. I am not saying that those who do trust the scripture do so in the face of evidence to the contrary, as I am sure you realize.
I realize I have expanded on that btw.
in fact I would say that evolutionists believe in that despite all the evidence to the contrary.
take the CMB referenced in the cosmology link - that was the theme of an article by dr john Hartnett on creation.com in the last week.
and just as you confessed to not understanding all the math, so I was lost on the detail in the Hartnett article.
the point is, your presupposition that evolutionism is true leads you to trust the scientists that interpret the data evolutionly.
and I of course admit to trusting scientists who believe the bible = and find scientific evidence in support of that presupposition.
but even not understanding all that heavy stuff,there is still a lot of arguments I can grasp ,things that evolutionists have to do drastic science revision on to bolster up Darwinism.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 09:00 PM

Well we're told not to criticise particular versions of God because there are so many. So why not a God who is utterly hands-off?!

And yes, claiming a God whose mucky hands are all over evolution is a total copout. It's a way of having your cake and eating it. Most sensible people of faith or no faith know that evolution can't be denied. But evolution has no striving for goals, no particular direction, is full of errors and blind endings and does not aspire to a perfect finale. Not only do you not need God in all that, there is simply no room for him. Not a single aspect of evolution needs a dose of Godly input or explanation. Trying to harmonise God with evolution is simply desperate. The only honest thing is to choose.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 08:42 PM

One man's 'cop out' is another man's opinion.

"There's a difference between believing in God and accepting evolution and believing in God thinking that he set evolution up."

No... there is little difference. Logically, *if* one believes in a god at all, that supposed entity 'might' have cognition and control over how reality is organized...in fact, why believe in a god if you don't allow 'it' some properties? *I* don't presume such ideas, just as YOU don't, but we are positing a belief. You are trying to insert YOUR conclusion into a syllogism which you did not construct.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 06:14 PM

There's a difference between believing in God and accepting evolution and believing in God thinking that he set evolution up. The latter position is a massive copout that ignores evidence and is no better than creationism.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 05:28 PM

"If you know people who make this valiant but misguided accommodation with science..."

Steve... I know dozens of people who are religious and believe in a god, but also accept evolution and an old universe and Earth! You probably do too, if you ask around. Worldwide there are many millions. Some of them are very good at science and make positive contributions. To my mind, that is the ONE acceptable solution to the dilemma they face. *I* don't have to buy into that position, but I can't even begin to disprove it!

All I really worry about is those who BOTH believe in inconsistent premises AND try to foist their beliefs on others. Even then, I will discuss/debate it all with them as long as it's done in a polite manner. Who knows... maybe I'll convince one.
(Did you ever hear the story about the jester offering to teach the king's horse to sing?)

Frankly, I would rather have a polite debate with someone I disagree with than be insulted by someone I basically agree with.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 03:01 PM

Don't YOU know people who consider themselves to be good Christians, but who just accept the idea that 'evolution' is how God set up the workings of the universe?

If you know people who make this valiant but misguided accommodation with science, they are no less deluded than pete. That attitude is simply not progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 11:27 AM

Oh...by the way. You say you'd heard that joke before in sermons. May I ask what point it was supposed to make? I'm rather surprised to hear it was used in church.

(Don's joke about the vicar & gardener is good, but I can easily see the religious answer to it, whereas I am not sure about the bridge joke)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 11:20 AM

"..when it comes to evolutionism, Christians usually know what the bible says but many give more credence to Darwin.the scripture becomes subservient to shifting evolutionary ideas."

And there we have the crux of the debate. At some point, the evidence for scientific explanations in paleontology, geology, cosmology, anthropology..etc., becomes so strong that 'many Christians' feel they MUST discard---not the Bible--- but literal interpretations of it. It is not a matter of "becoming subservient" but rather of sharing the stage. Don't YOU know people who consider themselves to be good Christians, but who just accept the idea that 'evolution' is how God set up the workings of the universe?
I often look at a web site about astronomy. Today there was a link to this site about Cosmology. I don't understand 90% of the math references, but what I can glean from it is that those who do that math, after observations, are daily learning more & more about the size... and age... of 'everything'. It is awe inspiring... but it is measurable, just as things beneath our feet are measurable. If folks want to believe that some all-powerful force they call 'God' started it all, I can only shrug. Maybe it happened that way... but *IF* a god gave us the mind and brains to measure his creations and write about them, I can't imagine He'd want us to limit our knowlege to one set of ideas written in one collection of stories passed on by fallible scribes for several thousand years!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 07:23 AM

A vicar was out walking one day, when he spied the most beautiful garden, and in it a little old man workng diligently away, snipping here and tying there, raking and hoeing.

The vicar stood and watched a while, the said "Good Morning".

"Good morning to you, Reverend", said the gardener.

"My word, what a beautiful garden you have made with God's help" said the vicar.

The old man gave him a quizzical look, then "Aye vicar, but you should have seen it when God had it on his own!"

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 07:03 AM

""further defines these as "all those in whose nostrils was the breath of life...""

So how come we still have all those bloody house flies and wasps, that don't have nostrils to breathe through?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 07:02 AM

looks like you make some beautiful things in wood,bill.
I have seen some of that before but some was new to me.
I have heard that joke before, in sermons.
different interpretations of the bible there certainly are.but when it comes to evolutionism, Christians usually know what the bible says but many give more credence to Darwin.the scripture becomes subservient to shifting evolutionary ideas.
I would certainly not pursue an argument about marys perpetual virginity, though I agree that some would.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:47 PM

I earnestly hope the missus never finds this thread. I mean, "sexual distance." Christ on a bloody bike, single beds here we come... :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:43 PM

For those of us, pete, who believe in the real world, and not magic or miracles, here's the yarn. Mary (allegedly, but we'll let that pass) had a baby called Jesus. There are two possibilities. Nine months before Jesus was born, Joseph shagged Mary. Alternatively, some other bloke shagged Mary. A real bloke, not the Holy Whatever. Thing is, I'm a bit of a Jesus freak. I don't believe those atheists who say Jesus wasn't an historical figure. I can't prove it, but I think Jesus really did exist. As for saying all those wise things, well, we have the word of a bunch of blokes who knew as much about Jesus as I know about Oscar Wilde (similar timescale). And I'll tell you summat. I don't need no virgin birth, miracles, rising from the dead or anything else of that load of bollocks. I can take him as a good bloke with a lot to say about how we should live our lives (I do have a number of disagreements with him, but hey). So do explain to me some time (no rush) why you and your ilk need the whole bloody shebang wrapped up in magic and miracles. If he's good enough as an ordinary bloke, he's good enough. But not for you. You can't accept your guy unless he's wrapped in magic. Weird if you ask me. Which you won't.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 06:03 PM

Pete..in my workshop I mostly make stuff from wood... mostly things like this... that is, woodturnings. I do several craft shows each year.

I read a lot of things about Mary & Joseph and the various opinions regarding what Mary's 'status' was at various times...and also who & what Joseph's status was. The various factions don't seem to agree... even reading the same basic Bible. My concern, as it always is, is that there *IS* continuous basic disagreement about interpretation & translation, and they simply cannot all be correct. THAT situation was the beginning (almost 60 years ago) of my skepticism about the whole story.

I don't know whether you appreciate jokes on the topic, but I once saw on TV a comedian, Emo Phillips, tell a version of this:

-----------------

(this was also done with Lutheran references...) ---------------------------------------------------------
I was walking across a bridge one day and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said, "Stop! Don't do it!"

"Why shouldn't I?" he said.

I said, "Well, there's so much to live for."

"Like what?" he said.

I said, "Well, are you religious or atheist?"

He said, "Religious."

I said, "Me too! Are you Christian, Buddhist or Muslim?"

"Christian"

"Me too!" I said "Are you Catholic or Protestant?"

"Protestant"

I said, "Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"

He said, "Baptist"

"Wow, me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?"

He said, "Baptist Church of God"

I said, "Me too! Are you original Baptist Church of God, or Reformed Baptist Church of God?"

"Reformed Baptist Church of God!"

I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1889, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?"

He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915."

I said, "Die heretic scum!" and pushed him off!
----------------------------

Pete... there ARE people who think like that about details...including Mary's supposed virginity. It kinda scares me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket giggling
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 05:30 PM

And so laughing at the absurdity of the ark is a straw an argument?

But surely it is just a quaint traditional truth? It isn't as if it actually happened. It all makes a humorous image actually. No Christian I know sees it as any more than a fairy tale, one to be revered and try and see some moral from, but a tale all the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 05:06 PM

pete sez this:

as usual steve contributes nothing of merit to the discussion

...then pete sez this:

bill, you are quite correct that mary was only a virgin till she was married, after the birth of Christ.
just as an aside,the period of engagement was considered marriage of sorts ,so that a divorce was required to break the relationship.
I do know that the catholic theology says that mary was always virgin, and I presume that the mention of Jesus brothers in the gospels is cousins,but I speculate.
that is not my take, since matthew 1 v 24f implys ,it seems to me,that josephs sexual distance from his wife was only till Jesus was born.

Bwahahahahahaha! "Sexual distance"! Bwahahahahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 04:44 PM

I take it, Pete, that you're overlooking the fact that Mary & Joseph were Jews?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 04:11 PM

bill, you are quite correct that mary was only a virgin till she was married, after the birth of Christ.
just as an aside,the period of engagement was considered marriage of sorts ,so that a divorce was required to break the relationship.
I do know that the catholic theology says that mary was always virgin, and I presume that the mention of Jesus brothers in the gospels is cousins,but I speculate.
that is not my take, since matthew 1 v 24f implys ,it seems to me,that josephs sexual distance from his wife was only till Jesus was born.
just out of interest bill, what do you do in your workshop?

as usual steve contributes nothing of merit to the discussion,presumably expecting that his past qualifications as a science teacher are all that is needed to address a discussion.

ok mr tuppenceworth,i know that the idea of whales flapping about on the ark deck makes a humorous image, but it is also a straw man argument.the text tells us it was land creatures and birdlife that perished,except for those directed to the ark,gen 1 v 21-23.
v 22 further defines these as "all those in whose nostrils was the breath of life..."

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket getting his tuppence worth
Date: 31 Jul 13 - 02:52 AM

Assuming the Eastern end of the Mediterranean was cool enough for whales. ..

Presumably the mammal aspect wouldn't have been known.

Unless god told them. He seemed to still have some credit on his phone in those days and spoke to mortals. Not sure how the whales managed to fit in the ark mind. Or are all sea dwellers heathens for saving themselves?

I'm sure that come the rapture, all will be revealed. The first sign by the way is vicars running up credit card bills they have no means of paying off.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 07:36 PM

Nah, it was a whale shark, a fish, not a mammal. "He made his home in that fish's abdomen..."

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: frogprince
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 06:41 PM

"The Bible appears to have no porpoise"

WRONG!! It's in the story of Jonah. Everyone keeps refering to Jonah and the whale; but the scripture never says "whale" It has been revealed to me that it was really a gigantic PORPOISE.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 02:39 AM

The Bible appears to have no porpoise.



Timing of punchlines was never my strong point.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 06:34 PM

Luke was about as close to Jaysus, Mary and Jojo as I am to Johannes Brahms. As indeed were the other gospel writers whose tomes were cherrypicked for inclusion. The intellectual switch-off by otherwise intelligent people which must be involved in taking this tosh on board never ceases to amaze me, and I'm no Spock.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 12:33 PM

""this is the same word in luke 1 v27,and if you follow the passage to v34 you find mary sayng to the angel !"how can this be,seeing I know[sexually]not a man.
I fully realize bill, that you don't believe this, but please do not infer that the bible does not teach it. ""

No, the bible doesn't teach it!

Luke asserts it in one section of the writings cherry picked for inclusion in the bible..

Was he present, do you think, at this conversation between an archangel (a stretch of imagination) and a woman who gave birth 130 or so years before Luke took up his pen and wrote it down, presenting it as gospel?

Because, if he wasn't there, he knew no more about the truth of the story than you.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 12:01 PM

""I am far more attracted to the idea of life being a (continually) creative process than life being a struggle.""

That doesn't compute, even empirically.

A simple examination of nature's food chains will disabuse you of that notion. For eveything in nature from single celled organisms to Elephants, and even Mankind, life is a constant struggle to find sufficient resourse to stay alive, while avoiding becoming the means by which your predators keep themselves alive.

It even goes full circle, with the largest and most invulnerable falling prey to the microscopic organisms of disease and parasitism.

If that isn't a struggle, pray tell how it is a creative process?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 11:51 AM

""You say "there are no goals in evolution". I say the exact opposite, that evolution has very clear goals...that it is an inborn impulse toward perfection. There is no way to prove that either of us is wrong in what we say.""

Which one are you LH?

Yoda, or Obi Wan?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 10:07 AM

"...why otherwise rational people defend the absurd notions..."

Because humans have to ability to suspend rationality at will if it suits some deeply held idea.... whether it be a childhood teaching, adult prejudice, cultural 'norm'...etc.
Look around you at the dozens of ways rationality is suspended in daily, simple ideas & acts. Simple superstitions, personal habits about food (eating things that you KNOW are bad for you), taking chances in crossing streets...(rationalizing that "I will be careful, and I am nimble")... it goes on.
There are **NONE** of us who are entirely rational on all things at all times, and no army of psychiatrists can either explain or cure the myriad ways our 'higher' thinking abilities manage to convolute and rearrange themselves in order to defend what others may call "absurd notions".

An American columnist, Sydney J. Harris, used to do an occasional piece where he'd define attitudes in terms of viewpoint... as in:

"I have the courage of my convictions. YOU are a bit stubborn. HE is a hardheaded fanatic."

How to approach the someone who is using what YOU feel is "absurd notions"? First, you MUST be able to comprehend how they got them and whether they are serious. My ex-wife, (a brilliant genius on some things) used to use the heel of her hand in the bathtub drain to "make the water go down quicker". The 'sound' made her 'feel' like it worked, and she had done it as a child. A gentle, short explanation about how any pressure she added to the process was negated by the time she had the exit covered was all it took to convince her of the waste of time. I very much doubt that calling it an "absurd notion" and telling her she was being ridiculous would have helped.

I FULLY understand how religious ideas...and many cultural ideas ...were instilled in human history...and unlike bathtub drains, cannot directly be addressed and/or disproven. I do know that insults seldom produce the desired response. (Jean Redpath, the Scottish singer, once said: "Did you ever notice how, when you have a heavy accent, people YELL AT YOU S-L-O-W-L-Y?")... a similar, useless attempt to deal with a situation.
Yes... I know how frustrating it can be when you are SURE you have explained it clearly and someone seems to just be unWILLING to comprehend. I have a dozen topics where that happens. I can either: A)go away and give up,B)YELL AT THEM SLOWLY..(with insults), or C)keep patiently trying in hopes that my basic logic is gradually seeping in, whether it shows or not. D,E,F?? maybe...but most other attempts are only variations on A,B &C. In my case, because of my training in logic & philosophy, it suits me to practice my explanations.

"..and who knows, perhaps the horse will learn to sing."

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 05:12 AM

mmmm boiled porpoise mmmm

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 29 Jul 13 - 02:31 AM

The results of being pregnant would be one hell of a stretch if she was a virgin.

After all these posts we are at last coming to the nub. When a literalist accepts that different translations from different languages can mean different things, we get closer to being able to see where this is coming from. Factor in the art of borrowing from earlier traditions to appear relevant to those you are trying to convert and we get the Bible.

So the only thing I don't get is, taking the above into account, why otherwise rational people defend the absurd notions. No need. As a moral guide, you could do worse (so long as you don't try the disgusting bits towards the front half of the book) and as a historical document showing how beautiful the English language was at the time of James I, it is of linguistic interest and I am sure, beauty. Those who seek to modernise the words are missing an important point.

It isn't the fascinating concept of how people used to think that is an issue where the Bible is concerned, its the insistence of some that it should guide How society thinks. That's another cauldron of porpoises.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 11:43 PM

Bill,


I think that if you accept that she had a conversation with an angel telling her not to worry about being preggers because God did it, then the vrigin part is not much of a stretch.

:-)

Have a great vacation pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 08:37 PM

Ah... I ought triple check on exactly which languages were used when... I do know that a low form of what my history professor called "dockyards Greek" was the way the Christian scriptures were commonly spread in Rome.

"Virgin" may be 'reasonable' under some cultural interpretations, but not in others.... and the translation of what Mary is supposed to have said is does not say she continued as a virgin as a 'married' woman with Joseph.

(Note.. I say 'supposed' because it is not clear who & how recorded her conversation with an angel. These are the things that simply cannot be proven.)

and enjoy your holiday.....I will be in my workshop a lot this next week

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 06:33 PM

Christ on a bloody bike...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 06:06 PM

...or maybe this one-
Aramaic was spoken by NT jews but the gospels were written in koina greek'.
matthew 1 v23. ..virgin..AV
from a gk commentary- "parthenos..it translates the heb word,,,a young lady w. high standing and noble qualities"
in that culture therefore "virgin" is reasonable.
this is the same word in luke 1 v27,and if you follow the passage to v34 you find mary sayng to the angel !"how can this be,seeing I know[sexually]not a man.
I fully realize bill, that you don't believe this, but please do not infer that the bible does not teach it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 05:42 PM

I am quite aware that Darwinism posits that only one line out of several may lead beyond the bounds of observable natural selection in a given organism...

...however it still means that for the many examples of stasis, you have to posit that they remained much the same despite changing selective pressures.

There you go. A man chuntering on about something he has absolutely no idea about. Utterly meaningless drivel from start to finish. Go, Bill. He's your baby.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 05:28 PM

yes bill, I am quite aware that Darwinism posits that only one line out of several may lead beyond the bounds of observable natural selection in a given organism.
for discussion purposes that might seem a good argument. it is also very convenient.it cannot be proved or disproved.
however it still means that for the many examples of stasis, you have to posit that they remained much the same despite changing selective pressures.
I read the link, but it only seemed to be describing natural selection.to infer that creationists don't accept that is your straw man.
and that moth thing - is that the same one where they glued moths on to tree trunks!?
either way, it is nothing that evidences mud or moth to man evolution.
so how do you overcome that?
you just assert again that all the lines of science converge on evidencing the evolutionary pathway.
if what that article details is evolution, then that makes me and most creationists evolutionists!
that's partly why I put an "ism" on the end of evolution.
natural selection is proven- evolutionism is,nt.

this might be my last post for a week as we are on holiday from tomorrow.   regards   pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 12:47 PM

The concept of 'the rapture' it seems was first invented in the 17th century from one of the manifold translations in the collection of old writings known as the bible.

There's a number of other examples of inventions/modifications to 'god's word' or 'scripture' as adherents like to call it.

Within my own living memory, christians, esp catholics, were forbidden to eat meat on Fridays or they'd go straight to hell

A pope changed this rule so eating meat was allowed.

However, I don't know if this same pope enabled those previously sent to hell for breaking the old rule to leave hell & go somewhere else - anyone know?

Another example is clerical celibacy apparently ok for clergy to marry until the 4th century then banned afterwards.

St Christopher got the sack too!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 12:47 PM

Gee, I always thought them were pleasurable sounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 12:20 PM

I was expecting something about the rapture of sexual pleasures but have found only rude noises.

Same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 11:55 AM

My first glance at this thread.

I was expecting something about the rapture of sexual pleasures but have found only rude noises.

Goodbye

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 08:16 PM

wasn't yeah innit.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 05:49 PM

I'm not concerned about reacting to your insults, Steve.

Well, thing is I wan't actually insulting you. I was demolishing you. I know how hard it is to take demolition and pretend, instead, that it's a mere insult. You see, Hawk, you have no idea about evolution. All you do is come up with some half-arsed fanciful notion about it and plaster it all over with your own faux-philosophical, aimless ramblings. Don't worry, you're far from alone. I advise you to take time to read up on evolution. As things go at present, you're struggling badly.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 02:40 AM

The degree of importance in these chit chats works two ways though. Of course Steve gets exasperated by misguided analysis. I do when applied to subjects I hold dear as can be seen on some other threads.

Some feel that sky blue thought drift and Devils advocate has a place and throwing in ideas to see if they float helps your own understanding based on the reaction.

Conversely, some get angry when others don't take these debates seriously enough.

Twas ever thus.

Me? Make it a pint.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 12:32 AM

I'm not concerned about reacting to your insults, Steve. Just how important do you think the chit chat on this forum is?

About as important as...a dog barking? Yeah, maybe about at that level. Certainly not any more than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 09:03 PM

Four billion years of evolution has led to no end-points save the ones involving dead ends and extinctions and billions of useless or malevolent miscopies of genetic information. Arguably, not even improvements. The suggestion that evolution has some kind of goal is pure nonsense and reveals that you have a good deal of studying to do. You are about as advanced in your knowledge of evolution as pete. Please take that as the insult it is intended to be.

What we really have is a very basic philosophical difference, Steve. We differ philosophically in what we think life is primarily about, and these last few posts have clarified that very well.

Covering up your sheer ignorance of this matter by pretending that your deluded standpoint is some kind of philosophical position is ludicrous and risible. Even more so considering that my position is one of an understanding of overwhelming scientific evidence and nothing to do with "philosophy". You are, to put it plainly, full of utter bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 05:14 PM

Hmmm. I might do so eventually, Bill, but my reading list is pretty long already.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 01:24 PM

" I say the exact opposite, that evolution has very clear goals...that it is an inborn impulse toward perfection. "

Oh my, LH... Gould has a LOT to say about this idea. This is a classic concept with clear historical roots. You really should read the books of his I have mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 12:56 PM

Pete- I should have added in my post a direct answer to your "beetles are still beetle after countless generations" remark, because we have gone thru this before.

It is important...VERY important... to understand that the theory of Evolution does not claim that beetles, as a genus, MIGHT 'turn into' some other species!! Nor do alligators turn into giraffes...etc. You keep using that general idea as if it shows something, but it is a *trivial* fact. It is a 'straw man' in the argument.... and it is a complete misunderstanding of how evolution is claimed to operate.
On the other hand, when a batch of beetles is hatched and crawls off to look for food, it is the case that some can be lighter in color, and some darker, and this can affect how well they survive- depending on which trees they arrive at. Now - the question is...what is happening to give them variations in color?

Read this page, which mentions several species, including the Peppered Moth (which I may have meant instead of a beetle).

The point is, the color change is genetic! 'Something' happened to cause a change in a gene. Successive changes can make some very different moths..or beetles. A moth will not become a beetle, nor a beetle a moth....but in 40 million years, either a beetle OR a moth (that is, ONE LINE of moths) 'may' gradually end up as something that is not really a moth! Other 'lines' of that original moth may still look very similar to the original.
This is how it works! And you & I are not the result of an ape 'changing' into a human.... we are the end result of ONE line of descendants of ONE proto-ancestor of BOTH apes & humans.

Yes... I know I have now asserted exactly what you wish to deny with your various creationist points & claims... but all my assertions make sense as they are checked and integrated by many branches of science. Darwin didn't know one-thousandth of the details WE now know... he merely saw superficial indications which he could not ignore and wrote about them. The details have been revised for 150 years as we gain more knowledge about HOW it happens.

Scholars have also tried to revise certain data about the Bible based on new information about:...its language, translation¹, authors, missing parts, historical references, contradictions...etc.... but there is little cooperation among various sects & religions which have their mind sets and egos wrapped up in claims about *truth* based on interpretations of one part of one translation of one text...........and this is why the idea of "non-overlapping_magisteria" is tempting. Science & religion simply cannot agree because religion, in order to BE religious, cannot allow certain criteria to be applied. (This even applies to 'liberal' religions as well as fundamentalist religions.. just to a different degree).


1.(it has been shown clearly that translation was inaccurate in describing Mary as a 'virgin', for the original Aramaic meant merely a 'young girl', and Mary was evidently fairly young when she was married.) King James' hired scholars just said it in such compelling language that it was assumed to be... ummmm.. gospel.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 12:48 PM

well frogprince,-assuming I get the import of your question!
firstly, I am not so sure that the examples of stasis are that isolated.
I am aware that darwinists will claim that if something hasn't changed over deep time till today, then it did not need to ,to survive.
assuming that is the correct understanding, then either that stasis survived through many changes in environment ,or it did change and woumd up the same again.
I presume the 2nd is not in the frame ,but it seems to me that positing no change in the organism while selective pressures kept changing seems very unlikely, but might well be entertained and embraced due to philosophical bias.
I am open to any [constructive.and of substance] deficiencies in my reasoning should that be the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 12:34 PM

Yes, it's interesting that on the one hand there is an impulse toward conformity (repeating whatever seems familiar)...and on the other hand there is an impulse toward innovation (seeking "newness").

These two impulses appear to contradict one another, but they are both present in most human beings to varying degrees. In politics this has been expressed in the past as the "conservative" viewpoint (loyalty to past norms) and the "liberal" viewpoint (flexibility)...but those 2 words have become so bastardized in the present day political arena that they have pretty much lost whatever meaning they once had.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 12:22 PM

I think you are both right. The mating impulse and contests among males is an "impulse toward perfection" if you look at it that way. Females will choose the mate that best exemplifies the species.


But from a mundane point of view it is the opposite of evolution. When females choose a certain type of mate based on specific actions or coloring or whatever then the species is less likely to vary and evolve.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 12:13 PM

How do you know it's fantasy?

You assume it is. Your assumption may be in error.

What we really have is a very basic philosophical difference, Steve. We differ philosophically in what we think life is primarily about, and these last few posts have clarified that very well.

You say "there are no goals in evolution". I say the exact opposite, that evolution has very clear goals...that it is an inborn impulse toward perfection. There is no way to prove that either of us is wrong in what we say.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 11:55 AM

That's just fantasy. And evolution has nothing to do with the living thing being steered in order to improve itself or anything like that. First, evolution is not about individual improvement at all. Second, there are no goals in evolution in any case. Your notion is fanciful and whimsical but it has nothing whatever to do with evolution. I bet even Snail would agree with me there. Unshackling ourselves from evidence-free notions of either inner or outer forces doing the driving is what the beginning of good science is all about. Enjoy your imaginative ramblings but don't confuse them with evolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 11:37 AM

I'm not suggesting a separate God who is tinkering with creatures and plants, etc, like a cosmic player playing a big computer game, Steve.

I'm suggesting that the indwelling intelligence that is ALIVE in each living thing has a tendency to steer it in directions which meet that living thing's desire to improve itself. That, to me, is evolution.

Yes, mistakes are also made, and mistakes lead to dead ends and sometimes to the destruction of the organism.

When you have intelligence at all, and can make decisions, mistakes are an ever-present risk, aren't they? But improvement is likewise an ever-present possibility, and therein lies the challenge of life.

You keep talking about "God" the same way a religious fundamentalist does: as if "God" was "out there" somewhere being the controller. (And you oppose that notion. Well, so do I.)

I am talking about something that exists innately within all of us and is NOT outside of us controlling us...but which IS what we are in the most intimate sense...the very life force and consciousness that moves in us and has its being in us and in everything else that is alive. We temporarily carry that life force and express it during our short physical lives here. Some of us realize that it is holy. Some of us don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 09:13 AM

"The real question is, Bill...do the genetic mutations occur in a random fashion...with the most favorable changes being perpetuated by survival....or do they occur as a result of an actual intention on some level of consciousness? In other words, is evolution an intelligent process or is it a random process?"

If there is one process that is the crowning glory of all non-goal-oriented processes, it's evolution. There is never an end product (even after four billion years). For every "successful" mutation there are millions of failures. The evolutionary tree is a mass of dead ends and extinctions. Miscopying produces freaks, monsters and non-viable offspring, all of which die out. Evolution is the story of extremely rare successes wallowing in a vast ocean of a myriad of disasters (if that really was you, God, get a grip, old boy!). Every mutation that ever happened can be explained by the laws of nature. There is no mysterious hand, and anyone who thinks there is, in the light of all this evidence, is seriously deluded. In fact, the declaration that God's hand is behind evolution is just about the biggest intellectual copout I can think of. By the way, evolution by natural selection is anything but a "random process" and, if you still say it is, you are displaying your ignorance of the science behind it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 01:45 AM

Philosophically speaking, I am far more attracted to the idea of life being a (continually) creative process than life being a struggle. People who think life is a struggle are inclined to fight with other people, conquer other people, conquer Nature, and generally bring about incredible suffering and disaster...while people who think life is a creative journey are responsible for almost every positive advance mankind has made (other than our spectacular achievements in the art or war....meaning....killing each other...which some might consider "positive", I suppose...but I consider it a misuse of our extraordinary talents and abilities.)

I also regard evolution as a creative process much more than "a battle for survival". Thus my disagreement with Mr Darwin is not that I am opposed to the idea of evolution...not at all!...but that I am opposed to the idea that it's all about survival. I think it's about the search for perfection.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 11:04 PM

"if that is what evolution is, bill, then creationists believe in evolution!. I should have thought it is more properly natural selection."

Charles Darwin certainly believed in natural selection it was part of the original title of his book. "Natural selection" was his major contribution to science.

From the Wiki article on the book....

On the Origin of Species, published on 24 November 1859, is a work of scientific literature by Charles Darwin which is considered to be the foundation of evolutionary biology. Its full title was


On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: frogprince
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 10:20 PM

Why would isolated examples of "stasis" (I think cockroaches are another) prove that evolution isn't the norm rather than the exception?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 06:41 PM

if that is what evolution is, bill, then creationists believe in evolution!. I should have thought it is more properly natural selection.evolutionism generally makes that equivalence.
as I said before the beetles are still beetle after countless generations observed.diverting to bombadiers does not change that.
I did read the links [critic take note!] ,and maybe got the gist of it.how about you bill,did you grasp it all?.
it is just as well that I never said anything about the bombadiers and at this stage I have no idea if the creationist claims about it are wrong.
as to examples of stasis ,two spring to mind, at this late hour!,-alligator fossil much the same as modern[on CMI site a few days ago],and the wolemie pine ,only known by fossilized example till discovered more recently, just about the same as each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 07:22 PM

Damn! I had my heart set on that, but I was on the road today... (sob!)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 06:01 PM

I see that we're almost to 500, but I am not going to bother fighting for it





,,,oooops

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 05:54 PM

"....i had always thought the theory was that the beetles that survived would be the ones that had the best disguise, and their progeny that had that advantage passed on."

Oh, that IS essentially what happens...[NOT to be confused with Lamarck's theory]....but what has been shown in beetles, as well as other fast breeding creatures that we can observe many, many generations of, is that the process of adaption IS one aspect of an evolutionary process!

Here.. read about one beetle that is at the center of the debate

first, the creationist take
then the scientific answer


then an article about how beetles in general help us comprehend what is happening


What is evident is that those who do not wish to accept evolution are doing what I referred to earlier.... they are doing what is often called "armchair science" and claiming that "it couldn't have happened that way because.... (insert some arbitrary pseudo-fact here". They 'prove' that such & such characteristic MUST have been designed by making up facts that are simply not factual.... or if factual, are not relevant to the case.

"...comparisons of modern creatures with fossils of supposed deep time.
how many examples would you like?"

Fire away with examples... but be aware that I can guess ahead of time that they will be as I mentioned above...non-facts or irrelevant facts. There are just too many interlocking bits of science that support each other in showing that diversity IS a product of evolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 04:25 PM

yeh, I suppose it was an interesting article,or at least an interesting take on those who believe in end times biblical teaching.
being a brit, I cant really comment on whether such beliefs engender such politicized mindset in americans as is described.it seems an entirely alien way of applying the scriptures to me.

bill-your beetle thing sounds interesting,especially as it seems to indicate the volition of the creature in adopting camouflage.i don't know if that's why hawk raised the question.i had always thought the theory was that the beetles that survived would be the ones that had the best disguise, and their progeny that had that advantage passed on.there is certainly nothing in that, that is against creationist thinking.no one is denying mutations happen,and that they may be benrficial to the organism sometimes.that is however,far and away from the addition of information needed for the evolutionary pathway.beetles have only been turned into beetles , despite observation over numerous generations.
and I must disagree if you are claiming that there is no stasis in comparisons of modern creatures with fossils of supposed deep time.
how many examples would you like?
that is not to say that every organism has survived,as even in modern times some face extinction.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 01:57 PM

""One of his ideas/claims is that Science & Religion have Non-overlapping_magisteria....the idea "that science and religion each have "a legitimate magisterium, or domain of teaching authority," and these two domains do not overlap." (This is not to say that they do not impact each other!)""

Which comment would seem to be entirely justified.

A pity, isn't it, that some followers of some religions want to teach their religion in science classes, as scientifically proven by a bundle of fairy tales in an ancient collection of parables and homilies.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 11:45 AM

For those who care to follow complex links...here is the WikiPedia article on Stephen Jay Gould.
The article contains both biographical data and brief examples of his important contributions.
One of his ideas/claims is that Science & Religion have Non-overlapping_magisteria....the idea "that science and religion each have "a legitimate magisterium, or domain of teaching authority," and these two domains do not overlap." (This is not to say that they do not impact each other!)

It is interesting to note that, although not all scientists agree with Gould in all interpretations or 'style', Gould is never dismissed, as the breadth of his research and careful analysis is seldom matched.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 04:43 AM

And there, Mr Happy, is a perfect example of how scientists treat the emergence of an unexpected anomalous process, against the general divergent trend of evolution.

They accept it and incorporate it into the general knowledge of the subject.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 03:34 AM

Panda's Thumb

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 11:00 PM

Good article, Jack.

The last sentence says, "We could say, then, that the realest thing about the Rapture is that it's an idea with the potential for making the earth into a graveyard." (by encouraging a reckless foreign policy that leads to uncontrollable wars in the Middle East, with unforeseen consequences for the entire world)

I think the author is quite right about that. (I added the part in brackets as further explanation to those who have not read the article)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 10:46 PM

an informative essay on The Rapture

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 02:15 PM

I daresay. It's not a simple matter to either ponder or explain.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 02:05 PM

"The real question is, Bill...do the genetic mutations occur in a random fashion...with the most favorable changes being perpetuated by survival....or do they occur as a result of an actual intention on some level of consciousness? In other words, is evolution an intelligent process or is it a random process?"

Oh my... that issue takes many pages to answer. All I can suggest is to read Stephen J. Gould.

"Ever Since Darwin" and/or "The Panda's Thumb"

The actual answer seems to be that it is 'not exactly' random, but certainly is not 'intelligent' in the common sense of the word..... I simply can't type enough to show the complex answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 01:45 PM

The real question is, Bill...do the genetic mutations occur in a random fashion...with the most favorable changes being perpetuated by survival....or do they occur as a result of an actual intention on some level of consciousness? In other words, is evolution an intelligent process or is it a random process?

That is the part that really interests me. In other words, are we the result of random changes in genes...some of which turned out to be beneficial...or are we the result of an indwelling intelligence and purpose which brought about the favorable gene changes seen in the process of the evolution of species?

If so, this intelligence could be attributed to a "God"...that's one way of looking at it. Or it could be attributed to the intelligence within the organisms themselves. Or those 2 factors could be one and the same, given the fact that an ifinitely existing intelligence would be found individualized in ALL living beings, and working through them.

I've always said that the essential difference between the materialist viewpoint and the spiritual viewpoint is this: materialists seem to prefer to believe that everything we see around us happened by natural law...but without conscious intention...meaning randomly (by accident)...whereas spiritually-minded people seem to prefer to believe that everything we see around us happened by natural law...but WITH conscious intention and intelligent purpose.

That is the real dividing line between the materialist and spiritual philosophies. Both of them respect natural law (that goes without even saying)...but only one of them thinks that natural law is working through an indwelling intelligence and purpose, rather than as an unthinking system of mere random, purposeless causes and effects.

And there's no way, I submit, of proving either proposition, as we have no way of observing the source or operation of the indwelling intelligence, assuming it's there.

Since the materialistic viewpoint wants to PROVE everything, this presents materialists with a proposition they don't like, and they tend to react with denial of even the possibility. Spiritually-minded people, likewise, don't like the idea of a system that is devoid of meaning, and driven only by blind causes and effects attributed to Natural Law.

Neither group are opposed to Natural Law, but they see it from differing perspectives.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 01:22 PM

Pete... "... many ,if not most supposedly MYO fossils are virtually identical to the modern organism."

Simply not a fact. The only way anyone can reach that conclusion is by defining anything that seems 'different' as not related to the same modern organism. It is clear that we DO have older fossils that are both different AND related.

As to fallacies: it is true that someone **may** obtain a 'correct' answer, even though their reasoning is totally confused.

" ...it does not follow that the overall argument is wrong." It does, though. The criteria for valid, logical reasoning is not the same for evaluating data. If I tell you that mixing orange juice into concrete will produce strong concrete, and you add some and get strong concrete, it does not follow that the juice was the key.

What fallacies show is that IF we find fallacious reasoning, we should suspect the answers. If two conclusions are contradictory, at least one must be wrong....perhaps both.

By analyzing the DNA of fast breeding insects (and some other organisms), we can SEE certain mutations taking place in order to maximize odd of survival.
There was a beetle which was proven to have changed its coloration to avoid detection by predators on certain colors of tree bark..... this was a case of GENETIC mutation, not just 'lucky beetles' or some other guess. They proved this.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 12:20 PM

point to you frogprince.after I posted that little joke,it occurred to me that someone would comment on it not being a straight analogy.and admittedly I would not have put it as precisely as you anyway.
of course I expected the usual suspects would chime in with their usual scientific ! and intelligent ! contributions,and demonstrate how much of worth they can contribute.
but if we stick with the flys,- as they reproduce so rapidly ,why is it unreasonable to expect some kind development far beyond what is offered,if evolutionism were true.
on the contrary many ,if not most supposedly MYO fossils are virtually identical to the modern organism.stasis seems to be the order of the day = or deep time!

bill- just to clarify,-I should have thought that even though an expert like you may pull me up on a logical fallacy, it does not follow that the overall argument is wrong.
it seems sort of like the brilliant lawyer that can get a crook off the hook by aguing technicalities.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket sans Ian
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 07:13 AM

Done









I'll even look after your parrot when you get called up.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 06:11 AM

You don't care about the rules?

Why don't we both just knock it off for the sake of manners then?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket sanctimonious as a sailor
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 02:34 AM

Aye. Common decency? You may ask for dozens of your posts to be deleted then.

You hurl insults and when you get them thrown back you go crying to the mud elves.

Steve is right to say that in an open forum anyone can post and either throw their opinion or comment on the opinion of others.

Before anyone starts getting shirty and calling for rational debate, may I remind us all that this thread is about people who believe that they are going to some mythical heaven and those who laugh at them are going to be left behind to fight each other.

Rational? Sorry, I thought the idea was to marvel at the power of group delusion?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 02:32 AM

What a Paine!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 10:28 PM

>>Nope. You'll get sarcasm from the gallery as deserved. That's the interwebby thingie for you. We all put up with it, even Wacko. You want a little chat with no risk of sarcasm? Well, you know what to do. There's no law that says you do it in public. <<


There are rules in this form. There is common decency and manners. Both should be sufficient reasons for you to cease and desist your rude and childish behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 08:47 PM

If Pete had an easy way to register, we would do it by PM.

I'm not surprised you intend to continue in your usual 'helpful' manner.

I may have a surprise for you.... we shall see.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 08:22 PM

Nope. You'll get sarcasm from the gallery as deserved. That's the interwebby thingie for you. We all put up with it, even Wacko. You want a little chat with no risk of sarcasm? Well, you know what to do. There's no law that says you do it in public.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 06:43 PM

"The only person round here "debating" with pete is you."

Perhaps so... which is why we seem to be insulted simultaneously, though in different terms.

Would you mind TOO much if Pete & I continued talking over our differences of opinion in gentlemanly manner when the notion strikes us... with sarcasm from the gallery omitted? Thanks awfully in advance.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 06:11 PM

We are debating with Pete...

Nah. The only person round here "debating" with pete is you. One fine day you'll realise that his only interest is taking the piss out of you. He hasn't got the least interest in what you're saying. That's why the same twaddle comes up again and again. He thinks we've forgotten about the last time he brought it up. And you are giving him that strong impression, that we've forgotten. More fool you. Still, it's fun to watch.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 03:35 PM

Are you sure? I don't wash the car, I let the Albanians over in Keadby do it. I don't service the missus once a week and I don't go to bingo or get my bunions sorted.

But you could guess that.

No. Either you deliberately misinterpret my posts to make me look silly whilst just making yourself look a twat. Or I have been wrong and you need pitying and humouring due to your low intellectual function.

Of course, you have repeatedly tried to pigeonhole all rational people with no religious hangups as being common purpose Dawkins disciples. Well the millions and millions of people who have no imaginary friend and would accept the title of atheist haven't heard of Dawkins. Increasing numbers of people have a decent education without knowing anything about Jesus, Mohammed or the bogey man.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 02:20 PM

"a fellow needs a hobby to keep him off the streets"

Yes! And even moreso with Dachshunds. You wouldn't believe the trouble an idle Dachshund can get into when he ventures beyond the front door.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 01:51 PM

"Bill enjoys explaining things. It helps him clarify his own thinking.

Yes.. true. However: If someone simply does not wish to accept the basis of ANY explanation, there is little anyone can do.

(and sorry Pete, but the following includes references TO you as I try to explain MY position)

Pete is not alone in this, and the problem exists way beyond religious disagreements, although there are hundreds of millions of people who also have religious positions I have 'some' issue with. I guess I an glad they don't all try to post here!

Those who work hard to deny climate change often have financial interests in the industries that would be limited if scaling back of fossil fuels were implemented.
   Those who have a financial interest in gun manufacture or have a fear (real or imagined) for their security will rationalize about new laws to control firearms.
Even people who are constantly under time pressure to 'get to work on time' will rationalize about their tendency to exceed the speed limit.
People who overeat and become obese will find all sorts of reasons why they 'can't control' their weight.

The list goes on into political realms, personal areas about friends & relatives...etc... it even extends to 'edited' memories about the past.
NO ONE is immune to ALL the ways in which 'truth' and 'fact' can be distorted, sometimes honestly and understandably...no matter what others say to try to 'explain' things.

Faith in the tenets of some religious doctrine is one of the oldest human mindsets, from the earliest humans looking at lightning causing fire to the most complex writings of Jewish, Islamic or Christian theologians.
We are debating with Pete because he represents...as I recently posted... a "minority within a minority". In order maintain his beliefs in a 'young Earth' and deny evolution, he MUST also juggle concepts of what 'proof' actually consists of and must also (from Wikipedia) "Move the goalposts" (raising the bar) – argument in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded."

There are several other different logical fallacies which we have often tried to pin on Pete, and I 'could' go back and try again to make a list and say "see there? You made this error and that error!"... but the point is that he ***BELIEVES*** his basic position to be ***TRUE***, which means that all I can do is "explain things" as best I can. In the process *I* learn a lot about how to identify various fallacies and how to best illustrate and translate them. It does NOT mean I am expecting to convince Pete about the bottom line, nor does it mean that Pete is stupid of dishonest. It just means that I consider the discussion interesting and important.

Anyway... a fellow needs a hobby to keep him off the streets. ☺

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 01:11 PM

"The atheist experience is not as pete said above.

The atheist experience is spending Sundays washing the car, nipping down the pub, eating without mumbling an incantation first. "

As usual, the Ian Mather-centric point of view first and foremost.

Never mind that pete put "Atheist Experience" in quotes and was obviously referring to a broadcast, probably this one.
The Atheist Experience

It is not an issue that Ian Mather has his own idiosyncratic opinions on what certain words an phrases mean to him. But trying to get others to adopt them seems to be a symptom of some sort of egomaniacal grandiosity.

Obviously the people in Austin have different experiences, from Ian's and they care enough about their experiences to produce the show. While Ian, one again shows himself to be a fool by implying that pete was wrong in invoking the title of the show.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 12:29 PM

"If some people do debate such things it is because they are interested in the subject"

Exactly! That's why most 'believers' talk about it too, Musket. They're interested in the subject.

Sometimes (certainly not always) I do pause for a moment of silent reflection and thanks before eating a meal. Why? Well, I'm thankful that I got to eat today. I'm thankful to Mother Nature for providing the meal. I'm thankful to the farmers who grew the food and the people who cooked it (if I'm in a restaurant or whatever). I'm just thankful, period. If I think about how thankful I am for half a minute, I find I enjoy the food even more! ;-D (But I don't consider it obligatory to render such thanks...just helpful to increase my awareness of my dependence on the rest of life.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 12:09 PM

Exactement. As I've oft said, our pete understands nothing about anything and he loves to come here and show off about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: frogprince
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 11:50 AM

Sigh; I bet a cookie, without seeing the presentation, that the reference was not to flies that had become infertile, but to flies that had become unable to breed with their hereditary "cousins" because mutation or gene drift had separated the lineages to that extent.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 11:45 AM

The atheist experience is not as pete said above.

The atheist experience is spending Sundays washing the car, nipping down the pub, eating without mumbling an incantation first. It is doing the pots, debugging the computer, debugging the dog, watching Top Gear on the telly. Its scratching your groin, breathing, going to bingo, getting your bunions sorted, doing a big shop in Tesco, putting the kettle on, popping down the chippie, buying a scratch card from the newsagent, giving the car its annual service, giving the missus her weekly service, ringing your relatives, having a hair cut, listening to good music, half listening to trashy radio, clearing the ashes from the log stove, opening a tin of beans. ...

That's the atheist experience.

It isn't wondering about creationism or science. It isn't trying to understand why some people feel smug about being er.. pious.

If some people do debate such things it is because they are interested in the subject, not because they may or may not believe in group delusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 11:31 AM

i watched the "atheist experience" interview with guest ray comfort.
i must admit to not being over impressed with ray comforts performance.on the other hand the best evidence the atheists cited for evolution was a breed of flys exactly like the forbears except for being unable to interbreed with each other.so if you should develop a condition that renders you infertile, careful you dont get labeled as a new species!
not sure if you thought that was the video i was referring to,bill ,but it was quite interesting,albeit disapointing,considering comforts prominence on the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 10:52 AM

Don't worry about it. Bill enjoys explaining things. It helps him clarify his own thinking. (at least I presume it does) That's why I enjoy explaining things too.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 10:30 AM

Yeah, well the people in Dubai don't like Flintstones repeats but the people in Abu Dhabi DOOOO!

OK, pete, old chum, you've duped Bill into another patient explanation of radiocarbon dating, which, of course, you'll pretend to take on board but which you won't. He'll be back with that one, folks, don't you worry. What next? Another pot at irreducible complexity? For the still-unamused, here's a typical pete-ism, gleaned from his last post, for you to savour:

i was not able to locate any info in that article that disclosed that method...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 06:12 PM

The Jetsons was considerably weaker a premise for a show than The Flintstones, so you didn't miss much not watching it. The stuff you do mention watching regularly sounds pretty good to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 06:00 PM

I didn't really watch them all that much. Or the "Jetsons." I'll usually give a cartoon show a look, but unless it has some outstanding features to it, they usually don't grab me. "SpongeBob Squarepants" is pretty funny.

"The Simpsons?" Nah.

I guess I'm sort of a TV snob. "Nova." "Nature." "Masterpiece Theatre." "Downton Abbey." "Lark Rise to Candleford." Mysteries like "Inspector Morse," "New Tricks." Comedies like "As Time Goes By," "Good Neighbors."

A little susbstance there, not just designed to sell soap.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 05:37 PM

frogprince- what i meant was that you are probably aware that there is a shift from OT to NT,as i described.i was under no illusions that you accepted it as one dispensation to another.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 05:11 PM

I can see how they might have been, Musket, in a material sense...certainly not in a philosophical sense. ;-) Yeah, Betty was kind of foxy, wasn't she?

I think Hanna-Barbera probably more or less patterned the Fred Flintstone character on Ralph Kramden of the Honeymooners. In the Honeymooners, however, you had great ensemble acting by Jackie Gleason and the rest of the very talented cast, and therein lies the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket getting nostalgic
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 03:23 PM

Oy!

I always said that Betty was a foxy chick and was wasted on Rubble without a Clue. ..

I loved the bit in the film where Fred said something along the lines of "well if I'm not good enough for you, there are two thousand other people on this planet. "

On a serious note, looking at the pastiche of California living, for us this side of the pond with post war austerity still influencing lifestyle, Flintstones were aspirational!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 02:53 PM

I love satire, Don. I loved the Satire in the Rocky and Bullwinkle Show, for example. Or in the comics Pogo, Bloom County, and Calvin & Hobbes. There was some clever and subversive satire in the Donald Duck Comics, the golden age of Mickey Mouse comics and cartoons, and some of the Popeye stuff.

Yes, there was satire in the Flintstones too...clumsy satire, but I think the show sucked bigtime. It was satire on a really stupid level. I could say the same of all the Hanna-Barbera cartoons. They were weak, not very funny, obnoxious, pretty much lacking in any kind of satire that held any interest for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 02:44 PM

thanks bill for distilling the more understandable bits of the wiki entry.i note that significant variation of carbon 14 is acknowledged but that recalibration is effected by recourse to other attempted methods,as tree rings and varves.this of course depends on the interpretation of that data.i was not able to locate any info in that article that disclosed that method.
the assumption is that there is little,if any ,variation in those methods over the millenia,and that the estimate of the rate of varve deposits,tree rings annually,etc are relably accurate.
as you might suspect- CMI scientists have tackled this before and published their findings on their site.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 02:44 PM

thanks bill for distilling the more understandable bits of the wiki entry.i note that significant variation of carbon 14 is acknowledged but that recalibration is effected by recourse to other attempted methods,as tree rings and varves.this of course depends on the interpretation of that data.i was not able to locate any info in that article that disclosed that method.
the assumption is that there is little,if any ,variation in those methods over the millenia,and that the estimate of the rate of varve deposits,tree rings annually,etc are relably accurate.
as you might suspect- CMI scientists have tackled this before and published their findings on their site.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 02:43 PM

Little Hawk, does satire simply go over your head?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 02:33 PM

Dino was included in the show simply because people like animal mascots. He served a similar purpose to Snoopy in the comic Peanuts, but he didn't go nearly so far, because Peanuts was a far more perceptive comic (at least in its early days) and had a lot to say about life.

The Flintstones had nothing to say about life beyond...

"suburban men are morons, sad little boys who never grew up, they like to party and belong to weird social clubs, they are loudmouths looking for a good time, they like expensive toys, they are tyrranized by their horrible bosses, and they're secretly scared of their very demanding wives, who are greedy, shallow, brassy women who like going on shopping binges at the mall"

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: frogprince
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 02:27 PM

"as i am sure you know really,what is called dispensationalism is not a rescue package imposed on scripture to avoid apparent clashes between the testaments,but rather built on the teaching of scripture."

No, Pete, that is not something I "know really"; if it were, I wouldn't have explained what I do believe in that regard. I know, and have known, numerous fundamentalists who, like you, believe in a young earth because they realized that that is the conclusion to be drawn from a strictly literal reading of the Bible. But the tendency has been that the more one of those individuals has studied the Bible for himself, rather than depend on what has been interpreted for him, the more likely that person (remember, I'm speaking here of strictly fundamentalist, young earth people) has been to reject dispensationalist interpretation as non-Biblical.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 02:08 PM

The Flinstones were characters on a wretchedly stupid and crass cartoon show that basically promoted the most vapid sort of California/Beverley Hills suburban 1960s affluent lifestyle (mindless consumerism and mind-numbing idiocy) with a thin veneer of "caveman" stuff pasted over it for laughs...and to provide a theme.

If you wanted to find out what a dark sickness lay at the heart of the American Dream, one way of doing so was to study the most basic assumptions that underlay shows like "The Flintstones"...shows written and produced by shallow minds FOR shallow minds in one of the shallowest moral tarpits in the entire world: Hollywood.

It was funny at times...if you could stand digesting the overall moronic outlook of the show and what (little) it was saying about life.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 11:37 AM

Pete------"...the former are measurable in the present,but dating relates to the past,and as i understand it involves assumptions which are not verifiable."

They ARE verifiable. read the details (yes, I know it's beyond either of us to understand ALL the math and chemistry, but basic facts can be found. You may read as much as your brain will tolerate...but don't get hung up on all the math...just note that they are constantly refining both measurement techniques and analysis parameters! They have no interest in making their data fit pre-established goals. They want correct answers.

Here is the basic quote:(I have highlighted the main point) ". When an organism dies, it contains a ratio of 14C to 12C, but, as the 14C decays with no possibility of replenishment, the ratio decreases at a regular rate. This rate is known as the half-life of 14C. The measurement of 14C decay provides an indication of the age of any carbon-based material (a raw radiocarbon age).[4] However, over time there are small fluctuations in the ratio of 14C to 12C in the atmosphere, fluctuations that have been noted in natural records of the past, such as sequences of tree rings and cave deposits. **These records allow for the fine-tuning, or calibration, of the indications derived from measuring the carbon ratio.** A raw radiocarbon age, once calibrated, yields a calendar date."
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Next relevant quote:"The above calculations make several assumptions: for example, that the level of 14C in the biosphere has remained constant over time.[15] In fact the amount of 14C in the biosphere has varied significantly, and as a result the values provided by the equation above have to be corrected by using data from other sources, using a calibration curve, which is described in more detail below."
---------------------------------------------------------------
It goes on to explain the various ways that calibration is cross-checked to avoid serious errors. The experts do know that 14C variation must be accounted for... and they take special pains to deal with it!
The point is- No one claims this is accurate to exact days & weeks, but given known laws of physics and chemistry, combined with VERY accurate calibration against absolute known ages...such as in tree rings... it IS possible to reduce the possible errors to a very small range.


--------------------------------------------------\\

Later in the article:"The 2004 version of the calibration curve extends back quite accurately to 26,000 years BP. Any errors in the calibration curve do not contribute more than ±16 years to the measurement error during the historic and late prehistoric periods (0–6,000 yrs BP) and no more than ±163 years over the entire 26,000 years of the curve, although its shape can reduce the accuracy as mentioned above.[47]

In late 2009, the journal Radiocarbon announced agreement on the INTCAL09 standard, which extends a more accurate calibration curve to 50,000 years.[48][49] The results of research on varves in Lake Suigetsu, Japan, which was announced in 2012, realised this aim. "In most cases, the radiocarbon levels deduced from marine and other records have not been too far wrong. However, having a truly terrestrial record gives us better resolution and confidence in radiocarbon dating," said Bronk Ramsey. "It also allows us to look at the differences between the atmosphere and oceans and study the implications for our understanding of the marine environment as part of the global carbon cycle."[50]

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 10:11 AM

My q above re the Flintstones isn't frivolous.

I asked because they've a pet dinosaur; 'Dino'

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: open mike
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 04:12 AM

I have seen bumper stickers that say
"In case of rapture this car will be unoccupied"

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 03:09 AM

An aside. The rapture was mentioned on the radio yesterday afternoon.

The person being interviewed, a member of the general synod, says the rapture isn't mentioned at all in the bible. S day of reckoning is in there towards the end of the book but the rapture as described doesn't feature and that it was a Victorian story.

Anybody know about this? It might serve to end the thread and put this silly nonsense to bed. You see, when you take the piss out of nonsense, some people get all protective over it, which just serves to increase their absurdity. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 09:40 PM

but dating relates to the past,and as i understand it involves assumptions which are not verifiable.

As you understand it? Well there's a laugh. Not once in all the posts you've ever posted have you shown even the merest glimmer of understanding about anything. Do tell us more about these unverifiable assumptions. If you "have time", of course.

You bone idle git.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 05:55 PM

oops-that should have read "...technical applications of circular reasoning"

frogprince- yes that is my presupposition,your presupposition is that darwinism is true,unless you can say why YOU know its true.
Jesus did use the bible as authoritative,and i believe ,though not perhaps spelt out,as inerrant. the OT laws applied to israel as a theocratic people,and as you allude to - that dispensation.
paul described the law as a schoolmaster AV,a pedagogue,an appointed guardian for a child.its purpose was instructive and for the time before Christ .
but even if you look at the example of the woman caught in adultery,you have to ask where the man was!
leviticus read "...they shall both be stoned.."
but as i am sure you know really,what is called dispensationalism is not a rescue package imposed on scripture to avoid apparent clashes between the testaments,but rather built on the teaching of scripture.
it is nice to have a little diversion into theology, but i may not have the time for too many diversional posts.
regards   pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 05:22 PM

bill- the contents of a can and the depth of an ocean are not the same as dating methods since the former are measurable in the present,but dating relates to the past,and as i understand it involves assumptions which are not verifiable.
and if they can get the date of rock formation of known age wrong,why should we trust the method for rocks of unknown age.
as to an exact definition and technical applications,i leave that to you.i deliberately said "some sort of..."precisely because i expected you to call me on it.   my point is that instead of some clear explanation that proves darwinism to be true,i am just assured it is true.which is just what i am accused of doing because i believe the bible.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 05:12 PM

Does anyone know if the Flintstones were creationists?

pete,

Might this information be on your all=answers website?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 03:09 AM

In the meantime back to the rapture.

I was informed yesterday that our local vicar has just retired.

Why would he bother if the rapture is due? Seems a bit pointless really.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 09:52 PM

what i could provide are many quotes by evolutionists that admit that the theory is far from being proven.

You do not understand what a theory is and you certainly don't understand the crass stupidity of talking about theories "being proven". You come here and proudly proclaim your ignorance, despite being told squarely by others how to avoid it.

meanwhile what i do get from the darwin devotees here

There are no "Darwin devotees" here, - There are sane people who view evidence objectively and reach their conclusions. Which is a damn sight more than you ever do. One fine day you will come on here and stop dissing honest scientific endeavour.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: frogprince
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 06:25 PM

Pete, to you the Bible is inerrant because the Bible says it is inerrant (Which is the same to you as saying that God says it is inerrant.

Leviticus prohibited the Jewish people from eating a specified list of creatures which were declared to be "unclean". Then we come to the New Testament story of a vision of a sheet full of all those creatures, with God's voice saying that everyone was free to eat them. The "dispensationalist" interpretation of that is that God was repealing an old law. The much more natural sense of the story is that God is saying, "I made these things clean, just as I made everything clean in the first place; there was no reason for you to think I told you not to eat them."

Leviticus insisted that people be stoned to death for any of a number of offences, including adultery. When a woman was brought before Jesus for committing adultery, he said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". He was not saying "My Dad just gave me permission to change the rule on that" ; he was effectively saying, "You should be able to realize that that law was never morally defensible; my Dad would never really have dictated a law like that".

I'm sure anyone could come up with other New Testament passages which effectively say that various things in the Old Testament were misguided. If Jesus, and the writers of the New Testament, didn't regard the Old Testament as inerrant, why should you have to?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 06:07 PM

That is a complete mis-statement of what circular reasoning is, Pete. I could go into detail, but YOU could Google it and read the details as well.

We DO accept the reasoning because of the evidence, just as YOU would accept evidence on many subjects... if they were not about topics which your fundamentalism decrees 'already decided'.

Plumbing, the depth of the ocean, the contents of canned vegetables... etc...you would accept experts data without arguing. Carbon dating of bones is not really different.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 05:44 PM

Ok bill- i agree that quotes can be found for most anything,and i confess that in that particular- ie the religious nature of darwinism,i only know of that one.but as steve challenged me to produce it,and it confirmed the dictionary 2nd definition ,i still consider it valid.
what i could provide are many quotes by evolutionists that admit that the theory is far from being proven.i have provided a number of them in the past,so i am not intending to repeat them all again.
meanwhile what i do get from the darwin devotees here [a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion- oxford dict] ,is a lot assurances that evolution is true.why is it true-because evolutionists say it is !!!!.of course you,s expand that to say that it has evidence in all fields. and why is that true?-because you say its true!.
sounds like sone sort of circular reasoning to me.
and calls for me to fall in with churchians who have compromised the clear teaching of the bible is certainly not on my radar.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 01:49 PM

In any case, are you saying that your background with the Catholic religion has not in any way affected your present opinions or the things you react to? It doesn't seem very likely that would be the case. I've known a lot of Catholics or ex-Catholics, and there hasn't been one who wasn't very strongly affected by their family's religious background, and most of them have to a considerable extent rejected much of what they were taught

All manner of things in my background have affected my opinions on all kinds of things. You appear to wish to single out my Catholic upbringing, for reasons best known to yourself. Well I don't. It was benign on the whole and I gently slid away from it. You know, I've been over this many times before. Do continue to pigeonhole as is your wont. The first thing we need to do here on the interwebby thing when communicating in this single-stranded manner is to accept that we do not know each other well enough to go around pigeonholing or psychoanalysing. Taking the piss is fine, of course. Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 01:14 PM

this post is for pete.

Darwinism? What about Aristotle? Adam Smith?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 11:02 AM

Steve, it's impossible to get along with or be understood by a person who is simply determined to take offense every time spoken to and to put the worst possible interpretation on something another person says to them, and that's how you react to anything I say to you. Why not consider the possibility that I'm trying to relate to you in a positive way...discuss things in a positive way...and simply exchange ideas...rather than assuming I'm patronizing you? You ascribe all kinds of dire motives to me that are not accurate. In doing so, you make the same error you accuse me of: assuming you know exactly what I am thinking.

You don't. Neither do I know what you're thinking...but I keep trying to find out...

Keep in mind that I also talk to about a hundred or so other people on this forum, and I don't have perfect recall of every single word we've ever said to each other in the past.

In any case, are you saying that your background with the Catholic religion has not in any way affected your present opinions or the things you react to? It doesn't seem very likely that would be the case. I've known a lot of Catholics or ex-Catholics, and there hasn't been one who wasn't very strongly affected by their family's religious background, and most of them have to a considerable extent rejected much of what they were taught...or left that religion entirely. Some have switched to other religions or philosophies. Some have rejected all forms of religion. Some have remained in the Catholic church. I doubt that any of them regards the Pope as infallible!

I was very strongly affected by being brought up in a materialistic, social-climbing, competitive, atheist, money-and-status-concerned family with absolutely NO spiritual outlook on life...and I ended up to a considerable extent rejecting much of the example they put in front of me...because it didn't make me (or them) the least bit happy or address the things I ended up really caring about.

I'm trying to communicate with you here. I am NOT attempting to patronize you, to prove that I am smarter than you or to have a fight with you about anything at all. I have nothing to convert you to, no belief I want you to adopt, I simply want to communicate. Period.

****

Evolution. A very interesting subject indeed. I already was reading about it with great interest when I was a small child, due to my parents having some neat science, geological history, and biology books around the house. My father and I went on fossil-hunting expeditions, and I was well aware that the fossils we found were probably millions of years old, and far predated the development of humanity on this planet...or of mammals, for that matter. The idea of evolution is no threat at all to more advanced forms of spiritual understanding...but it does seem to bother religious fundamentalists, all right, because it doesn't fit the mythical/allegorical stories they wish to take literally.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 08:42 AM

Evolution, in the context of science, does indeed have a very deep meaning. It is quite possibly the biggest idea ever in biology. It explains the whole of life on earth in all its diversity, complexity and beauty. It goes a long way towards describing the origin of life. For all we know, it probably explains life wherever it arose in the universe. It's as good as that. But it is not a religion. Evolution's feet are rooted firmly on the ground among masses of solid evidence, not up in the sky or beyond, the domain of some inexplicable super-being running the show. On the other hand, evidence is the enemy of religious faith. The more evidence you have, the more shaky the foundations of faith become. That is why religion has felt threatened by science for thousands of years. Of course, even the most devout believers rather like the science and technology (all of it evidence-led, inconveniently) that makes the modern world what it is, so they try to find some accommodation with science ("I do believe in evolution but God kick-started it and runs it"). Actually, Richard Dawkins called evolution the greatest show on earth. And it doesn't even need a stage manager.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 04:34 AM

""Could there be a few idiots who claim that evolution has 'deep meaning' similar to religious ideas? Perhaps... but YOU don't judge Christians by those who promote atrocities in the name of Jesus... do you? "Kill a Commie for Christ" was an old joke...except a very few fools thought it made sense.""

Spot on Bill, and by the same token, you don't judge Christianity by the utterances of Creationists.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 03:24 AM

If you want irrefutable proof of the evidence for Darwin's theory, I heard it on the radio this morning.

A man in Australia has died during a pie eating contest.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 09:57 PM

By the way...about the Ruse quote..

"Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion—a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality."

NO... it simply is not. Not by any reputable scientist working on evolutionary themes. Could there be a few idiots who claim that evolution has 'deep meaning' similar to religious ideas? Perhaps... but YOU don't judge Christians by those who promote atrocities in the name of Jesus... do you? "Kill a Commie for Christ" was an old joke...except a very few fools thought it made sense.

Think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 06:52 PM

Something to keep in mind when interpreting scripture:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesher

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 06:17 PM

Pete... you get most of your 'quotes' from Creation.com

http://creation.com/michael-ruse-evolution-is-a-religion

I have to tell you that Creation.com using "admits" in a headline does NOT make that a reasonable use of the word. Not only that, you could find almost any "admission" you wanted on almost any topic...from someone.

Dr. Gish, who Ruse quotes, is an unabashed creationist who "left The Upjohn Company to join the faculty at the newly established (1970) Christian Heritage College"...which later became the Institute for Creation Research.

http://creation.com/duane-gish

Pete... those guys are a minority within a minority. Relying on such 'admissions' is like asking a couple of cat lovers to judge a dog show.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 05:52 PM

Interesting, Steve, that you grew up (I assume) in the Catholic church community, while I grew up in an atheistic, household. It could, to some extent, account for what things tend to push our buttons, couldn't it?

No it couldn't, and I must have been over all that at least a dozen times. The trouble with you is that you love to construct everything in your head to fit your rather fixed view. To pigeonhole people. We are not all the same and we do not all fit the mould in which you appear to construct your somewhat simplistic view of humanity. On top of that, you are very patronising. Perhaps you're not quite as all-knowing as you seem to think you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 04:08 PM

That is 100% certain. Kind of like believing that water flows and that pigs don't fly, right, Greg? Gee, it's nice to find a few things we can actually agree about....regardless of who is saying them. Try that sometime (looking beyond the name of the poster to the content of the post). It would require giving up your usual petty personal hatreds and feuds, but I think you should try it anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 04:01 PM

There are a great many Christians and other religious people who DO believe in the modern theory of evolution.

Yup, and they believe in the theory of gravity as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 03:57 PM

pete. You'll never go to heaven telling porkies. ..

Evolution is a scientific model that to greater or lesser degrees is consistent with findings and has yet to be fundamentally questioned. If it is, then that would be exciting. Same as Einstein showing us flaws in Newtonian physics, and especially absolute state. Science changed overnight. Just like that. No wars, no followers, just cold examination of the theory.

If some people see reality as an alternative to a religion, its a bit like real normal Christians not wanting to be lumped with delusional idiots who think biblical fantasy is more than creative writing to derive a moral stance.

Christians can be embarrassed when I point out young earth creationists as being Christian. Rational people can be embarrassed when some idiots see science as a belief system.

Science isn't a belief system and creationism isn't the same as professing membership of a religion.





Sometimes you just have to tell them to drop after whacking'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 03:34 PM

pete - There are a great many Christians and other religious people who DO believe in the modern theory of evolution. Most Christians I know believe in it.

Then too, most of the Asian religions/philosophies/etc regard evolution on a spiritual level as well as evolution in the sense of what is referred to in nature science. That is to say...it isn't just a question for them of the evolution of bodies and minds, but also the evolution of soul or spirit as consciousness working through bodies and minds...and this would occur alongside and in concert with the sort of physical/genetic evolution the scientific community is normally talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 03:19 PM

"We're here (on this board, under that line) to argue the toss"

Yes, but hopefully in a moderately constructive fashion...

"not to patronise other people here by pretending we're trying to "do them good".

It's not patronising. It is simply stating what I think are good things to do, and good ways to behave, as opposed to destructive things to do and destructive ways to behave.

"This is not life. This is a thread on the internet."

I take your point...and I don't take the stuff that happens here all that seriously nor give it much importance...but I do think everything is still part of the experience we call "life"...including chat on the internet.

***

Interesting, Steve, that you grew up (I assume) in the Catholic church community, while I grew up in an atheistic, household. It could, to some extent, account for what things tend to push our buttons, couldn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 03:19 PM

oxford dictionary-
1- a particular system of faith and worship.
2-a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion.

"evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science.evolution is promulgated as an ideology,a secular religion-a full fledged alternative to christianity,with meaning and morality.i am an ardent evolutionist and an ex-christian,but i must admit that in this one complaint-mr gish is but one of many to make it-the literalists are absolutely right.evolution is a religion.this was true of evolution in the beginning,and it is true of evolution still today.....
evolution therefore came into being as a kind of secular ideology,an explicit substitute for christianity"
ruse,m   national post ppb1 b3 b7    13/5/2000

so there you have it- a dictionary entry,and an admission.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 03:06 PM

"are you saying that I, an individual, cannot have a sense of the sacred"

Certainly not! I think everyone holds something sacred. For one man it might be his mug of ale....for another, his family...for another, his country...for another it might be all of life. ;-)

"do you contend that my having a sense of the sacred makes me a one man religion?"

Possibly... ;-) But I can't say for sure. I'd have to know you better to be sure about that. It wouldn't be an organized religion, mind you, but it might still be a religion in an individual sense. For instance, I'd say that both my father and his blasted older brother (the nuclear physicist with the photographic memory and the personality of a turd) worshipped their own egos to an extent that was quite clearly religious in both depth of faith and intensity. They detested each other, and it was no mystery why! ;-D Each got in the way of the other's godlike presence.

"I don't like either, nor do I believe either."

Fine. I don't say that you should. Believe whatever you want to.

****

Impure thoughts, Steve? Yikes! Yeah, I've had any number of those. ;-) They assault me every time women cross my mind, but I haven't talked to a priest about it. Sounds like that priest was just longing to hear about yours. You should've gone into great detail and been really inventive, it probably would have made his day.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 12:53 PM

""They have a sense of the sacred. As far as I'm concerned, that's a religion.""

So LH, are you saying that I, an individual, cannot have a sense of the sacred, or conversely do you contend that my having a sense of the sacred makes me a one man religion?

Those, with respect, seem to be the only two alternatives that your suggestion permits.

I don't like either, nor do I believe either.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 12:47 PM

There was a time when you got a plenary indulgence just for nipping into church, bending a knee and repeating twice more on the same day, but only on certain days (I think maybe you had to do a quick Our Father, Hail Mary and Glory Be). Shit hot it was if you were a lousy sinner but couldn't be arsed to go to confession very often. Of course, you had to be sure that none of your sins ever crossed the line into mortaldom. No indulgence got you off that rap. That simply had to be the confessional. I was never entirely sure how impure a thought had to be before it was mortal. I asked a priest that in confession once and he asked me exactly what kind of impure thoughts I had in mind. I kid you not.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 12:41 PM

A possible answer to the question; Why are we all here?

Because we're not all there!! 8-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 12:38 PM

We're here (on this board, under that line) to argue the toss, not to patronise other people here by pretending we're trying to "do them good". This is not life. This is a thread on the internet.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 12:36 PM

So many religions around, wouldn't it be funny if we haven't found a real one yet? And all believers are lining up for the pits of some hell or other whilst only those who never worship any diety are allowed into the eternal pub or whatever it is, as we don't worship false idols. (Kate Bush was never false ok?)

I'd need divine surgery to wipe the smug grin off my ex face.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 11:01 AM

Fine, Don. You don't have to call them "religions" if you don't want to. Your choice. I call them religions. The Buddists have priests, rituals, and temples. They have a sense of the sacred. As far as I'm concerned, that's a religion.

All religions put forward a "philosophy or way of life". Some include a deity (or deities). Some do not.

Yes, "the impersonal divine order of which you speak is within themselves"....and it's also everywhere else, which includes all the stuff that is external to themselves. It is experienced both within and outside of the one having the experience. Within, as consciousness. Outside of, through interaction with the rest of the Cosmos.

I don't regard "other religions" as inferior, because I'm not exclusively attached in any way when it comes to religion...so there ARE no "other" religions from my perspective...there are simply many religions, all of which are at their heart a search for meaning, purpose, and truth. I look for whatever good can be found in each one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 10:55 AM

"... who fail to provide evidence for darwinist belief."

Fail? What sort of evidence does he....or you.. require? The literature of science is chock-full of more evidence than any one person can evaluate in a lifetime! The evidence comes from various different areas of science, and always confirms the basic facts. Are you willing to subject YOUR beliefs to the same standard of proof?
I just watched the beginning of this video (almost an hour long) in which Comfort does the semantic trick of saying "Upon my conversion, I came to know Jesus as the source of truth and life..." (I think I copied that correctly.) He challenges atheists to be able to make a similar claim. The atheist in the discussion says "Ok... *I* am the way. Everything I say is true". Comfort replies, "Ok..resurrect yourself from the dead, and I'll believe you."
Pete... he does exactly like you in simply stating that...somehow... in 'accepting' the divinity & message of Jesus (or, what someone TOLD you was a truth) that he thereby 'knows'. He is once again using the claim to justify the claim... the famous circular reasoning.
I am not sure he...or you.. are even trying to comprehend the difference between your subjective acceptance of a 'message' and the rational, analytic, ongoing integration of enormous amounts of scientific data... that is, *evidence*.. that evolution IS a fact and that we are merely adding details and refining our understanding of the process.

Any assertion should be subject to various forms of proof and coherence, and science does this continuously. Religion has nowhere to go after making its basic claim. Even if someone found a cave with Jesus name on a big stone, and if everyone shrugged and decided to accept the idea that there was a 'historical' preacher of that name 2000 years ago, the claim of 'resurrection' is essentially another level of claim.

You cannot simply state that "Darwinism" is 'just another type of belief system. Doing so shows a basic error in comprehension as to what a 'belief system' IS! I suspect that Comfort... and you... and most other intelligent fundamentalists... realize at some level that you cannot agree to the proper definition without weakening your position.

A sometime quoted but seldom properly attributed remark quotes an old woman as saying "Of course it was a just war, my son died in it!" (Nietzsche- "Thus Spake Zarathstra"). One can see at once the error of the judgment, as well as the naturalness of the opinion. We humans must monitor ourselves very carefully to avoid that kind of rationalization.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 10:46 AM

""There have been some religions that didn't posit a God at all (such as Buddhism and Taoism, to mention two), but did assume a more impersonal divine order of some kind.""

Which is why I don't see them as religions at all, nor do they call themselves religions.

Talk to Buddhists or Taoists and they will talk about their philosophy or way of life, and the impersonal divine order of which you speak is within themselves, not external.

It is other religions who hang the religion tag on them, much as JtS is trying to do with Atheists.

It would seem that pigeonholing those who disagree as religions, gives the automatic right to list them as inimical to your manufactured God, and therefore inferior.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 10:43 AM

Heh! Well, if you're a Catholic you might worry about that. Or you might not. Not all Catholics hang on every word the Pope utters.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 10:37 AM

Shorter sentences in Hell?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 10:36 AM

Special offer from Il Papa!!; http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/16/vatican-indulgences-pope-francis-tweets

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 10:35 AM

And sure, I may have misunderstood what you were thinking...we all sometimes misunderstand what the other person is thinking. If so...then just explain what you're thinking. That's what I do when people don't understand something I said.

Rather than trying to verbally destroy the people we don't agree with on some subject, Steve...which is what far too many people here on Mudcat do all the time...why not try to communicate with them in a reasonable manner and find out why they think what they do? It makes for a better conversation.

We've got a choice. We're either in this world to do good...or to do harm. (or to do nothing at all...which eventually leads to harm) The choice is in front of us at all times.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 10:23 AM

If we're not here "to do good" (in this life), Steve...

What are we here for?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 08:53 AM

.......so why didn't the imaginary deity attach a ring-pull to a coconut?

Another of the mysteries of life!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 07:43 AM

Yep. Thousands of years of scientific endeavour lead us to...Ray Comfort!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 07:27 AM

I think the pineapple refutes the banana.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 06:50 AM

pete,

Here's Ray Comfort proving intelligent design, says it all really

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 06:39 AM

Gutter tactics include the summary dismissal, without the slightest justification, of the evidence that comes from the hard work of honest scientists. You are the past master of presenting little titbits that you haven't read properly. As I've said before, you're the laziest person on this board by a country mile. And the most pig-ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket giggling
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 05:45 AM

If stupidity, senseless arguing and posturing confirms your belief pete, I'm with you on that one...

It possibly didn't open because there is no belief called Darwinism.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 05:38 AM

oh dear we seemed to have dragged something unpleasant over from another thread!.my consolation is that the mockers only serve to confirm that they have no constructive arguments,and only serve to confirm mine.
then there is don firth who does not resort to such gutter tactics but is strong on asserting evolutionism as an unassailable fact.
ray comfort has a new video out, in which he interviews students and profs who fail to provide evidence for darwinist belief.i have only read a review so far,and that did make the point that clipped interviews can miss out qualifying material.
meanwhile CMI's 15 questions for evolutionists are still available for evolutionist answers - if they have anything of substance to answer with,that is!.
and i found a link purporting to give "15 answers to creationist nonsense".never wanting to accused of being closed minded,i clicked on it.not only did it make me wait,it was not available when in did open!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 05:11 AM

I tried agreeing with him on earlier threads, Little Hawk... it did about the same amount of good. I got roundly raked over the coals for being polite when conversing with Pete.

Hmm. The sooner you and Hawk decide that you are not here in order to "do good", the better off we'll be. As for pete, you're his main succour on this board. Your "constructive" attitude ("indulgent" may be more apposite) to his vile nonsense is what keeps him going. Fat lot of "good" that's done.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 05:05 AM

Steve, I am attempting to communicate with you about this subject in a friendly, respectful, and constructive manner...and to find some common ground between us. When you respond in a similar fashion, then we might succeed in actually having a real conversation. All you're doing at present is acting like a stupid bully in a 5th grade schoolyard

Then don't misrepresent me. I have never in my life said that religion contains "only bad stuff". Quite the opposite on a number of occasions. Misrepresenting someone, then knocking them down for the lie you've constructed about them, is a hundred times more the act of a schoolyard bully than any plain speaking.

you fucking asshole

Hmm. You seem to have failed in your mission to be "friendly, respectful, and constructive". Actually, you seem to have lost it completely, I'd say.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 04:45 AM

Obviously a jerk as well. But less coherent.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket sanctimonious as a sailor
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 04:04 AM

Yeah but he is also a fellow Messiah, if you have been reading the thread Jerk himself refers to. Other than his football misgivings, oh and hatred of apple sauce, he seems to have Catholicism weighed up. Not having ever been a member of any religious organisation, I do note the serious comment behind the style. My style is to provoke thought, or take the piss as Jerk The Sea Cadet says, latching onto an off the cuff comment I made in a different thread.

I reckon it is more of "militant? I'll show you bloody militant! " although I am sure Mr Shaw can speak for himself.

I fully agree with littlehawk when he says that PMs are better for serious debate. I reckon we can all be strutting peacocks on these threads, especially when reacting to gormless comments.   No names, no loss of rum ration.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 11:44 PM

4 hundred

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 11:43 PM

Steve is a jerk. That was proved beyond doubt in the militant atheist thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 10:17 PM

I tried agreeing with him on earlier threads, Little Hawk... it did about the same amount of good. I got roundly raked over the coals for being polite when conversing with Pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 09:23 PM

Steve, I am attempting to communicate with you about this subject in a friendly, respectful, and constructive manner...and to find some common ground between us. When you respond in a similar fashion, then we might succeed in actually having a real conversation. All you're doing at present is acting like a stupid bully in a 5th grade schoolyard, albeit one who's learned slightly more advanced language than the average 5th grader is capable of. I have no aunt Sally...or any other living aunts, for that matter. My elders all passed on some time ago.

If there were a hell, (and I doubt there is) your fitting punishment would be stuck with your own company there. You treat other people like shit, so why should they pay any attention to anything you say?

I AGREE with some of the stuff you've said on these threads, you fucking asshole, but you're so busy just putting other people down that I doubt you ever even noticed.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 08:15 PM

i can always find a quote from an evolutionist that admits it is a religious position

Come along then. I'm all ears.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 08:13 PM

The only real disagreement we have, I think, is this: You look at religion and you seem to see only BAD stuff. I look at religion and I see some bad stuff...and some good stuff... Wotta bunch of utter, dishonest cobblers. Did your Aunt Sally teach you that? Ask her to teach you to read what people write instead of imagining what you'd like people to write in order for you to be able to make the next stupid point that comes into your head.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 07:51 PM

It seems you've stirred up the pot and raised some eyebrows, Pete.

"I can always find a quote from an evolutionist that admits it is a religious position, ..."

Well, if you can find such a quote, it proves nothing. At that point the word "admits" becomes the issue. "Admits" implies a whole lot more than "claims" or "asserts".

SOME things just DEPEND ON INDIVIDUAL PERSPECTIVE.... but words have to mean something. A 'religious perspective' is about religion... evolution is about having opinions that are NOT specifically religious. If all you mean is that you can find folks who accept evolution, but also believe in a god... sure... but then the point is that it is possible to BE religious and also accept evolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 07:33 PM

"God doesn't need religion and neither do I."

Well put, Don T! You've stated a profound truth there.

"But religions need a God, and each one manufactures its own sacred one and only true God, and defends it with religious fervour and often violence."

True in some cases, Don. Not in all cases, though. There have been some religions that didn't posit a God at all (such as Buddhism and Taoism, to mention two), but did assume a more impersonal divine order of some kind. There have been some religions that were/are quite tolerant of other (foreign) ideas about God...such as Hinduism, the Baha'i faith, Buddhism, the North American Indian traditional religion, and many more liberal people and churches among modern Christans, Jews, etc.

"A God is a prerequisite for faith."

Again...not necessarily. One can believe in some sort of divine order or way of things without necessarily ascribing it to a deity. A Deity is an individualized representation of "someone" who is supposedly in command of that divine order. Taoism speaks of "the Way". Buddhism speaks of enlightenment. Hinduism speaks of Nirvana (while using many symbolic gods and goddesses to illustrate various archetypes of existence). North American Indian traditional religion speaks of "the Great Mystery" (or "the Great Spirit")...which is not a manlike being, but something much larger and less definable than an individualized being.

*****

I think this is what is required to have a religious sense of life: a belief in the Sacred, and a belief that there is a much higher purpose to life than mere competition and survival, and that that purpose underpins and supports all of life and gives life its true meaning. You don't have to belong to any organized religion to believe in that....but you might belong to one...and still believe in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 07:15 PM

""my definition is that a god is not a pre-requisite to a position on origins ,for example, being a religious position.""

I disagree with that Pete.

A God is a prerequisite for faith. But a group of men with a common belief, and agreed rites and rituals which they consider sacred, is a prerequisite for religion and religious beliefs.

God doesn't need religion and neither do I.

But religions need a God, and each one manufactures its own sacred one and only true God, and defends it with religious fervour and often violence.

I talk directly to the God I believe in and I don't have to kill anyone or adhere to anyone else's belief.

Just please don't ever dare to call my faith a religion because it is the antithesis of that.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 07:09 PM

Belief is fine - no matter how bizarre. It's when it captures functions of the state it becomes problematic.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 07:00 PM

""Can't you guys 'discuss' something 'spiritual', and not be so fucking nasty to each other??
Same ol' shit, different flies!"2

If you don't like it Goofus, there are other threads.

Please shut the door quietly as you leave.

We don't want to wake Pete.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 06:48 PM

""Techology""

WTF is that Jack? The study of secondary schools?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 06:07 PM

Evolution is NOT a religious position.

It is a scientific position and it is demonstrable.

Darwin may have made a few mistakes in details early on, but his general thesis was--and IS--valid.

It is not, in any way, a religious position.

It does not contradict the existence of God. The account in the Book of Genesis is mythology, not an actual description of how God did it.

Contrary to what they may believe, Fundamentalists are not really religious. They are believers in primitive superstition.

(Why do I bother? I've been here before and it's useless!)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 05:34 PM

I'm not sure what you're saying there, pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 05:22 PM

you may say it just once ,bill,but i dont mind repeating or expanding a point.IMO IT JUST DEPENDS ON INDIVIDUAL PERPECTIVE.if your definition of a religious position has to mention a deity,then atheism and evolutionism is not a religious position.
my definition is that a god is not a pre-requisite to a position on origins ,for example, being a religious position.
i can always find a quote from an evolutionist that admits it is a religious position, should you want to challenge that.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 11:17 AM

Oh, and... "as many times as it takes in order for religious proselytisers to realise they don't have a God-given right to do whatever they like"

Ha! What messianic confidence! You DO know that's not going to happen, right? ;-D

We're just huffing and puffing like the Big Bad Wolf at the brick house, Steve. It's fun. It gives us something to do in our idle time here, but it's not going to change anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 11:08 AM

Steve, you said: "We'll go over the tired old ground, old fruit, as many times as it takes in order for religious proselytisers to realise they don't have a God-given right to do whatever they like to their kids unchallenged."

For sure! I have no real disagreement with you there. In fact, I am just as concerned as you are about parents spoonfeeding unrealistic ideas to their children, and I think those ideas should be challenged. The saving grace to that is that most adolescents go through a period of several years when they DO challenge almost everything their parents told them...and that's the age when most young people tend to at least temporarily reject organized religion.

The only real disagreement we have, I think, is this: You look at religion and you seem to see only BAD stuff. I look at religion and I see some bad stuff...and some good stuff...plenty of both, in fact...and it's the good stuff I'm mainly interested in. What's the proportion of bad stuff to good stuff? Well, that depends on which particular group of religious people you focus on...and it can vary wildly from 50/50 to 10/90 to 40/60 or any other ratio one could possibly care to mention.

As with politics, when dealing with religions you have to find a group or a philosophy whose ideas mesh positively with your own, and you have to work with the positive side of it if you want something positive to happen.

I am just as aware of the excesses and mistakes in religion as you are, Steve...and I oppose them just as you do...but I don't imagine that there's nothing BUT bad things to be found in religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 05:08 AM

I know what! I shall find a quote of something I disagree with and start a thread. Then when the stance is sufficiently ridiculed, I will point out then, and only then, that I too disagree with it, and what silly twat started it?

Oh, and I shall start a few other threads on the same topic.

Just to flush out those who see through my shallow stance so I can shout at them, then look hurt when they shout back.

Do they have psychologists in your neck of the woods J**k? As you don't have universal healthcare, I am sure we can all have a whipround for you.



Hey Goofus! Don't get caught in the cross fire then. You know I know better than to take you seriously, I even write you poetry for Clapton's sake!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 12:08 AM

You are blaspheming Shaw's faith GfS. Trashing religion is his religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 12:06 AM

Can't you guys 'discuss' something 'spiritual', and not be so fucking nasty to each other??
Same ol' shit, different flies!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 11:02 PM

"You started a thread called "Militant atheism has become a religion", remember? You didn't start a thread called "Is militant atheism becoming a religion?", did you? As you sow, Wacko, so shall you reap. "

I QUOTED the title of the article in the title of the tread and I quoted the article in the opening post. I said about 6 times in that I didn't agree with that stance. I get that you only read what you want to read to form your insults and arguments.

I reap what I sew? Eh? I'm getting very good yield from that one little article and quote that I didn't even have to write or defend. Lots of entertaining pseudo-scientific hogwash and idiosyncratic "logic" from you and I** M*****.

Keep growing your silly illogical bile. Keep delivering it to my feet. Keep displaying your ignorance as a peacock proudly shows his tail.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 09:58 PM

Pete HAS explained before why he uses lower case. I don't like it, and it seems a stretch to 'honor' God and make it hard for everyone to read his posts.... but *shrug*.... I doubt he will change, so I deal with it.


and Pete...".why should their rights be infringed by this unproven relgious position ...?"

I will say this only once... Accepting the basic facts of evolution is NOT a religious position! "Darwinism" is not in the same category as Methodism, or Catholicism or Islam...or "fundamentalism"...etc. It is not even a good term to describe the complex science involved.

We do not 'believe' in some cult called "Darwinism"...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 09:24 PM

Great! That's going to keep me cackling for the rest of the week!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 09:22 PM

HAH!!

Maybe a bit too subtle, Greg.

(But after it sank in, I had to wipe a mouthful of coffee off my computer screen.)
Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 09:07 PM

So Pete, what's the deal? Do you think you're e..e. cummings, or Archie the Cockroach?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 09:04 PM

Pete, evolution IS a proven fact.

I am a member of a main line Christian church. I know of no one in the congregation of this church who believes that the earth is only 6,000 years old or that God sculpted Adam out of mud, extracted a rub, and made Eve.

The Universe is at least 13 billion years old, the earth is about 4.5 billion years old, and humans, as such, have been around for at least 100,000 years, gradually evolving into what we are today.

Your God is little more than a wand-waving wizard

A God who could create the Universe and all that's in it, including the earth and all that's on it, is a bit more powerful than that.

As to human beings, evolution is the way God did it.

And there is plenty of proof for evolution.

(Why do I bother? It's futile!)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 08:40 PM

why should their rights be infringed by this unproven relgious position being shoved at them and taught to their kids as though it were a proven fact

Yet you don't attack the teaching of religious myth as truth to kids, a thousand times more unproven, you bloody hypocrite. Go to hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 08:37 PM

You're treading tired old ground, Steve. We've already covered that issue in great detail (parental brainwashing of children...which goes far beyond just their religious programming)...

So what? Does that justify "religious programming"? I don't regard the responsible upbringing of children as brainwashing in any sense at all. You are making a disingenuously false equivalence between that and indoctrination with a religion which is very much a bolt-on that comes from outside. Millions of parents the wide world over provide a very complete and fulfilling upbringing for their children without resort to spurious tales of prophets, miracles and deities. Without telling them lies, in other words. And don't give me that tired old ground crap. We'll go over the tired old ground, old fruit, as many times as it takes in order for religious proselytisers to realise they don't have a God-given right to do whatever they like to their kids unchallenged.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 08:30 PM

what you say about christianity infringing or not as the case may be could as equally be said about the religious nature of atheism.in my country i think probably most people dont question darwinism.i understand that a lot do in your country.why should their rights be infringed by this unproven relgious position being shoved at them and taught to their kids as though it were a proven fact.
i also notice,bill that you are again playing the numbers game.i expect the opponents of copernacus and galileo [ and doubtless others also] did the same. and of course the science of their day eventually gave way.
i should point out ,bill, that i hardly ever quoted the bible till you rsaied a directly theological question.previous to that i was seeking to expose the lack of proof for darwinism - often by quoting evolutionists themselves!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 08:24 PM

You started a thread called "Militant atheism has become a religion", remember? You didn't start a thread called "Is militant atheism becoming a religion?", did you? As you sow, Wacko, so shall you reap.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 08:20 PM

You're treading tired old ground, Steve. We've already covered that issue in great detail (parental brainwashing of children...which goes far beyond just their religious programming), but you only remember (or focus on) the specific stuff you want to remember and focus on...only the stuff that haunts your particular anxiety closet, and I'd be wasting my time to cover it all again. I explained how to become a freethinking person: stringently question and re-examine ALL of the conditioning you received as a child. And I have.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 08:13 PM

I don't consider anyone here to be "Militant Atheists." "Militant Atheists." is Salon.coms term. A couple of you did self-identify by taking offense to the term. I consider you a rude name caller who cares way more about religion than you pretend.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 07:46 PM

"Well said Bill" my arse, Little Hawk. Here's a snippet of Bill's that you are so in praise of:

I would never interfere with a Christian's right to go to church... or to live as he chooses... as long as his behavior doesn't impinge on MY rights. I know personally many good, decent Christians who worship as they please, and respect my wishes.

Well as long as "I'm all right Bill", that's hunkydory. But there are hundreds of millions of Christians/Jews/Muslims in the world who leave Bill alone, but they don't leave their kids alone, do they? They send them to faith schools and Sunday schools and sign them up for life in bogus institutions under pain of hell/ostracism/death for demurring and in many cases they have them ceremonially mutilated. All in the cause of a God who doesn't actually exist. I would never interfere with a Christian's right to go to church or to live as he chooses, either, as long as his behaviour doesn't impinge on other people's rights, including me and children. I know personally many good, decent Christians who worship as they please, and respect my wishes. I also know many who don't see anything wrong with making their kids sit in classrooms under a crucifix and get railroaded into chanting prayers and singing hymns which express spurious certainties about the God they happen to have been born under. These people are the true militants. Don't ask questions! The Cause is everything!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 07:30 PM

Trouble is, Wacko Jacko, the people around here who you consider to be militant/evangelical atheists would scarcely stick their heads above the parapet at all if it wasn't for you and similar pricks upping the ante all the time by starting these threads (mainly you, of course). We don't start these threads, you do. As I recall, the average evangelist/militant doesn't evangelise or militate by sitting at home on his arse keeping quiet unless some twat or other (the cap fits - put it on) pipes up with a thread accusing us of starting a new religion or something. Wacko, you're the militant. You're the evangelist. You're the bloke who can't stand it if this stuff isn't constantly upfront. Mostly we don't give a monkey's Mickey, but you're such an entertaining chap to take the piss out of, you see.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 07:05 PM

"You have fallen for the bait several times, not for any ideological or moral reason that I can see, but seemingly to show off how smart you think you are."

Try reading what you quote, chump.

I said you fell for it to show how smart you are and that isn't working out for you. A point well made by you in your previous posts.


Greg, say something someone says is the most stupid thing in years quite often. It is making you appear to be lazy and not very self aware. Why don't you find something more original to say?

"Atheist evangelists. Priceless. That's absolutely the most amusing idiotic statement I've seen in many a long year."

I am also sorry to read that your vocabulary education has not extended beyond a strict 18th century of the word "evangelist." It can properly be uses in other contexts besides Christian ministry.

Techology Evangelist

It can also be used ironically with a wry sense of humor to describe people who attack religion and promote atheism.

Thank you for being about the 25th person on this forum to say something stupid about Militant Atheism. The writers at Salon.com must be very proud of their title.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 06:47 PM

""I have been looking for atheist evangelists to show themselves and then to hit them between the eyes with their own lack of logic. You have fallen for the bait several times, not for any ideological or moral reason that I can see, but seemingly to show off how smart you think you are.""

Then you missed the target by a mile you dozy prat!!

I'LL GIVE YOU A CLUE:-

Try actually READING what I have said chump! If you were targetting Atheist Evangelists, you missed twice over.

1. I'm not an Atheist, because I DO believe in a Deity!

2. I'm not an Evangelist, because I don't give a rat's arse where anybody else chooses to place their trust and faith, as long as they leave me alone.

I reserve the right to my opinion that they, and you, are deluded, not for believing in what you choose as a God, but for believing that you need a bunch of blokes who can't even put a collar on the right way round to find him for you.

And, purely by the way, I have never come across an Atheist Evangelist, and as far as I know, neither has anybody else.

Anybody out there actually claiming to have seen a living, breathing, OXYMORON?

Nice try Jack, but no coconut this time!

One thing I will say. I much prefer talking to Atheists. On the whole they are much more open minded than you and your kind.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 06:40 PM

Atheist evangelists. Priceless. That's absolutely the most amusing idiotic statement I've seen in many a long year.

Dawkins doesn't usually mock anyone who, thru their actions, foolishness, or intellectual sloppiness doesn't DESERVE to be mocked.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 06:28 PM

You are a full of crap blowhard stupid enough to try to convince people that I could not speculate about cave men by pointing to modern societies of hunter gatherers.

You are idiot enough not to know that Dawkins mocks and belittles ALL believers, including me, you are dumb enough not to see that I am not taking any of this nonsense personally and unself-aware enough to know that on these threads I have been looking for atheist evangelists to show themselves and then to hit them between the eyes with their own lack of logic. You have fallen for the bait several times, not for any ideological or moral reason that I can see, but seemingly to show off how smart you think you are.

No you are not my servant. Neither are you arguing intelligently or backing up any of your wild assertions with anything remotely resembling facts. I was offering you a chance to do that. Your adamant refusal speaks volumes about your methods and intentions. You are indeed, full of BS. But this IS the BS section so you can be forgiven for that even as I know you will forgive me for being amused by pointing it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 05:54 PM

""If you can quote me expressing that emotion, you can show me to be a liar. I dare you! Try it! or you can continue to bevae as a blowhard and a clown. The choice is yours.""

I'm not, as far as I know, your f***king servant Jack, so do your own homework.

Review your posts to the first several days of the "militant atheist" thread, and count the number in which you take Dawkins remarks personally and bemoan the fact that he is mocking and belittling YOU!

He doesn't actually know you, clown, and I doubt he would want to.

Then follow through and see how you provoke responses from Steve and Ian, and then claim those responses are an attack, by them, on you.

You are, as I said a passive/aggressive who needs to play the victim and engineers the situation to that end.
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 04:50 PM

Perhaps. ;-) But the fact is, you DO have to think for yourself to make any real spiritual progress in this life. You can't ride on other's laurels or achieve "salvation by association", in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 01:34 PM

But pete. Why just the bible? God appears in far more books than just that. Broaden your horizons! What does the Q'ran tell you? What pearls of wisdom are there in Hindu texts? Norse and Greek mythology has lots of Gods.

Whatever the question, the answer is there. And what's more, you don't have to think for yourself either!

I reckon you are flogging a dead horse there littlehawk. Ah well, your idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 12:41 PM

Well said, Bill.

The interesting thing is that when people take the Bible as THE one   absolute and perfect authority, which is an act of faith on their part, what they are really taking as the authority is the word of various other people to that effect. They have decided to have faith in the opinions and assumptions of certain other people regarding the Bible, and that's all.

If they'd been born in a Muslim culture, then they'd no doubt have had the same faith in the word of certain other people around them, only it would have led to a different conclusion: that the Koran is the final authority on the Word of God. And if they'd been born Mormons, then it would be the Book of Mormon. Or they might look to the Pope if they are very strict Catholics. And so on.

In every case their unquestioned faith in the book or the leader proceeds directly from their previously unquestioned faith in the various people who told them to have faith in the book or the leader.

pete - You ask "where do you think i am going to go, other than the bible?" The answer to that should be fairly obvious, pete. Go within yourself. Become silent, become very attentive, and go within. Search your own heart. That's what Jesus advised. It's also what Buddha and countless other great teachers have advised. If God lives within each one of us...and I'm sure you believe that that is so...then you can definitely find God (and peace and love) by going within. Seek and you shall find. And you can also find God in other ways, and reading the great spiritual books of the various traditions is one way that can certainly help you do so, but that is not to say that any one spiritual book is the ONLY source...or that it is a perfect source. They were all written by men, after all, and men are fallible...and easily swayed by politics, prejudice, culture, and whatever else influences their thinking at the time. That's why I look on all the great spiritual books as guides...but none of them as a perfect and exclusive source of spiritual truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 11:33 AM

Well Pete... then we can't do a lot other than compare notes, hmmm?

It is still true that in all discussions of this nature the existence of an all-powerful god and the bible as authority IS what is at issue.

It plays out this way: Religious people make claims based on what they believe...and often those claims involve telling NON-religious people that they should become religious. In the USA this is often shown by attempts to get religious **opinions** included in basic school textbooks, as if those opinions were proven. They also attempt (and often succeed) in getting laws passed which are little more than more religious opinions disguised as 'medical facts' or 'financial adjustments.
   Needless to say, NON-religious people object to having their lives affected by belief systems they are not part of. This, I gather, does not happen quite as much in the UK as it does in the US....but perhaps you can see why NON-religious people often make extra effort to explain why they are NON-religious.

It is not a matter of 'good' people or 'bad' people... at least to me. It is a matter ideas. I would never interfere with a Christian's right to go to church... or to live as he chooses... as long as his behavior doesn't impinge on MY rights. I know personally many good, decent Christians who worship as they please, and respect my wishes. We almost never even discuss these topics.... but as far as I know, none of them deny evolution or the scientific data on the age of the Earth or the Universe.

I am not sure, Pete, why YOU choose to face all the criticism here as about the only 'fundamentalist' who tries to argue for a "young Earth". It is a fairly free forum, and you are allowed to say what you wish, but you are pretty well outnumbered here, and 'strict fundamentalists' both in the UK and the US are well outnumbered by those who follow most of the wisdom and teachings of the Bible, but don't take it literally.

(ummm...I am sort of outnumbered also, as one of the few who will try to debate facts without insults...*more wry grins*. It is up to you if you want to continue this exchange under the circumstances.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 10:22 AM

Ho! Ho! Thanks for that kind remark, Steve. You're such a sweet fellow. Now go off and kick your dog, you rugged example of British manhood unsullied by any of the softer virtues... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 06:34 AM

Wot a load of sanctimonious, soft-centred twaddle, Hawk.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 05:01 AM

bill - when you ask me a theological question,or make a statement relating to God,- where do you think i am going to go, other that the bible.

gfs- revolve? well in the sense of turning around to the opposite direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 02:16 AM

BlowhardT lying about me is pretty uncivil in itself Steve and Ian. You would know that if you cared anything about lying. Also if you cared anything about civility.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 01:25 AM

Ditto, Greg. Shut yer gob, sod off, push off, bugger off, get stuffed, and go pound sand.

Steve - To the contrary, old sport. I was not being disingenous in the least when I said that. I was being dead serious. To become genuinely free a person must be willing to challenge religious mythology, political mythology, cultural mythology and every common form of social mythology that is shoved down the throats of the young by their usually well-meaning but far from omniscient parents. It is a lifelong challenge.

I easily rejected the more primitive forms of religious mythology by the time I was 5 or 6 years old, after being sent to just ONE Sunday school class. That was all it took for me to say "I don't buy this stuff." It took another couple of years maybe to see through the "Santa Claus" thing, which my parents went to some trouble to inculcate in my consciousness. It took quite a bit longer, however, for me to see through the absolute bloody mountain of social, political, and cultural propaganda that was likewise foisted on me by a well-meaning adult world, by the schools, by the government, etc.

It's a lifetime job to get free of that sort of programming, and most people don't do it all that well, because they just tend to believe what they're told as long as it comes from the higher "authorities" all around them.

But I'm sure you're far too clever to be taken in like that, right?

(I grew up in an atheist family, by the way. My mother sent me to that one single Sunday school class simply because "all the other children" were going, and she was worried what the neighbours would think if I didn't go too. I came back, said, "They're teaching crazy stuff there that can't possibly be true," and she said, "Okay, then I won't send you there anymore."

Just the sort of thing you like to hear, right, Steve? I was SAVED!!! (in your terms) ;-D And by my very own decision too. I never attended a church during my entire childhood and adolescence other than that one abortive visit to Sunday school. More stuff for you to be happy about, Steve! Light a bunsen burner and say a few "Hail Dawkins's" as you celebrate my escape from the dreadful horrors of oganized religion... (sarcasm)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket sanctimonious as a sailor
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 01:16 AM

Wash your mouth out Jerk. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 08:10 PM

Hey, Wacko, how does that last post (I wish...) of yours chime with your constant whingeing about how people are so hurtfully uncivil and rude to you? You're not in the navy now, my lad (probably washing other men's underpants, y'owld dhobi wallah)...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 07:41 PM

DonT you are full of shit.

If you can quote me expressing that emotion, you can show me to be a liar. I dare you! Try it! or you can continue to bevae as a blowhard and a clown. The choice is yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 07:06 PM

I have the same worries about people who inflict their unrealistic and bizarre political, social, and financial beliefs and prejudices on their children, Steve. What shall we do about it?

This is an entirely disingenuous response. Political, social and financial matters are all the very stuff of humanity having to plough its way through a crowded and complex world in which truth and fair play are hard to find. Religious belief, on the other hand, is a bolt-on to humanity. Forced on people, generally speaking, by authoritarian and self-interested big religion. I can't manage my life without politics, society and finance, but millions of us do very nicely thank you without religious faith. We're called atheists, by the way, and we're unrecognisable as such unless we start talking about it. Or, more likely, unless we're hassled about it by idiots who seem to think that faith is the default position. And, if you ever walk into a building with a massive cross on it in order to pray, that's you.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 06:44 PM

""I know that Jack feels victimised by those who don't believe in God and reject Jack's views."


You KNOW that do you?

You know how I feel?

A good approach to reasonable conversation is to stop pulling you arguments out of your ass. Why don't you try it?""

No mate. Pulled out of your own mouth, by reading what you have been whingeing about all the way through two threads.

If you don't want people to comment on what you write down, don't write it down!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 06:41 PM

What shall we do about it?

How about keeping your yap shut, Hawk? That would certainly be a relief.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 06:32 PM

I have the same worries about people who inflict their unrealistic and bizarre political, social, and financial beliefs and prejudices on their children, Steve. What shall we do about it?

God knows, I've been trying to de-program myself from all that culturally acquired crap all my life, and I hope you have too. ;-) The way to genuine freedom is to question not just one set of jealously guarded assumptions, but all of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 06:19 PM

Actually, it pisses me off to be called a militant. I don't start threads about this stuff. I'm merely a shrugger of shoulders at the nonsense of religious belief. I can't understand how intelligent people (not you, pete - don't go getting excited now) can put all the logic and rationality they employ in the rest of their lives on hold in order to believe in an entity who breaks all the rules of nature, for whom there is no evidence and who raises a million more questions than he answers, and, above all, who is utterly unnecessary. That's all. Where I get cross is when people who espouse this delusion have such faith in it that they inflict it on their children by acquiescing in their religious "education" (which is actually the complete opposite of real education in that you're telling children what to believe rather than showing them how to find things out for themselves). If you make your child go to a Catholic school you are forcing them to accept evidence-innocent myth as truth. You might be the nicest bloke on the planet, but if you do that you are definitely deluded. And not being very nice to your kid. And it's you doing that who's the bloody militant, not me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 05:53 PM

"I know that Jack feels victimised by those who don't believe in God and reject Jack's views."


You KNOW that do you?

You know how I feel?

A good approach to reasonable conversation is to stop pulling you arguments out of your ass. Why don't you try it?

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 05:47 PM

""What amazes me, Don T, is how hard most people look around for ways to disagree, rather than looking for a means to reach an accord and a common understanding, and mutual respect.""

Putting it on a purely personal basis, I don't really give a toss what Pete or Jack the Sailor choose to believe in, be it Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, or the Cosmic Pixie, who gives a damn.

But taking your comment about looking for points of aggreement, that is exactly what I have done, and it has led me to the conclusion that, apart from belief in a Deity (I do and they don't) I find many more points of aggreement with Steve, Mike, Ian and yes, Dawkins too than with any of the Bible Literalists, Creationists, Evangelists and men who preach in Fez, Turban, skull cap, backward collar or black frock.

That might surprise some, as Dawkins would see me as subscribing to the God delusion, but you see what Dawkins thinks of me is his problem, not mine.

If that makes me a militant, it is as an individual, not a religion.

Ditto Dawkins, Steve, Ian and Mike. Individuals all!

I know that Jack feels victimised by those who don't believe in God and reject Jack's views.

His frustration with that situation is very plain, as is the extra animosity and name calling I receive as a believer who still rejects his and all other religious views.

I don't understand what it is about Atheists and non religious types like me, that is so insulting to him that he must keep picking at it like an itchy scab for months on end.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 11:14 AM

""Describing someone as a jerk is not the same as dismissing them.
Nobody had brought up Dawkins as an expert or role model.


If you are asking how I can describe someone as a jerk even if they happen to hold a Phd. The answer is simple enough. It is when they abandon science and logic and stoop to bullying and ridicule.""

Poor little Sailor boy whining about being laughed at and regarded as delusional, deliberately provoking a response from others, then complaining about being victimised.

"Delusional" is an opinion, not a religion, and no amount of crying and breast beating from you will make it anything else.

Dawkins is as entitled to an opinion as you.

Just man up and ignore him, then stop provoking responses that upset you so.

SIMPLES!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 09:29 AM

Hmmm, that's odd... (?) What happened there?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 09:27 AM

400!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ahhh...   If I was a smoker, I think I'd have one right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 09:22 AM

"Well bugger me sideways with a bent banana..."

I know places where that can definitely be arranged, Steve, but it'll cost ya.

Figger about $50 (or the UK equivalent) up front.

- Chongo

p.s. Be advised that this transaction is illegal in quite a few places, and use caution as to who you approach. There are some "sting" operations goin' on out there.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 09:14 AM

I don't think I want to know what you thought the title meant.

Well it's like this, Wacko. I didn't thought it at all. It failed to contain a trigger word that gets my clickin' finger a-clickin'. Instead, it contains that useless, pointless, pretentious word "rapture". I eventually looked at the thread because I was somewhat curious as to why it's been hanging around. And bingo! What do I find but Wacko talking about me in my absence!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 07:32 AM

""In regards to the Poetry Bird post...""

The Potry Bird pst was me, using my wife's PC and forgetting to change cookies, while Spybot took two hours to wade through the backwaters of my own.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 10:13 PM

"...you come across as sarcastic about what i say [though print on screen can admittedly be misinterpreted] ,and rebellious against God."

I wasn't really intending sarcasm, Pete... just reacting to your increasing quoting of the Bible ... as if that proves anything to those who do not accept it as final authority.
The JWs I mentioned read bible verses to me, and I explained my position to them...that I did not accept the bible as an authority... so they said "We'll be back." They did come back in a few days with an older gentleman who had 'more experience'. Guess what HE did.

He read me MORE bible verses!! I had to shake my head in wonder at why they thought lots of verses would get thru to me... and so it is when you tell me things like ' I am sounding "rebellious against God."

No...I am not 'rebelling against God', for that would mean I accepted that a 'god' was in charge. I am rebelling.. or, more accurately, disputing ...certain patterns of reasoning that tell me that I should deem it as obvious that the Christian bible IS an authority.

Pete... the existence of an all-powerful god and the bible as authority IS what is at issue. YOU may believe these things, but for the umteenth time... you do not prove the authority OF the Bible by CITING the Bible. It is that sort of thing that draws remarks from me that may seem like sarcasm.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 09:40 PM

Well, it was a loaded question....the word 'repent' comes from the same Greek word as to 'revolve'...as in a 180...and what do you revolve? or better yet, what do you 'revolve' to?
Talk with me, Pete..I promise to give you some VERY overlooked goodies!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 09:02 PM

Wow - 333 posts. We're halfway to 666.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 07:42 PM

"a religion thread I didn't even know was here! "

I don't think I want to know what you thought the title meant.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 07:35 PM

Well bugger me sideways with a bent banana, a religion thread I didn't even know was here! Yummy! And I keep getting mentioned in it! Right, lads, let's go! You first, Wacko? Or pete, mayhap? Grand! I've been in civilised company all evening but they've all gone to bed and I feel the need for bullshit! Shoot, lads!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 06:03 PM

Never done that, Dave? ;-) Poor lad! You missed a vital part of every growing boy's childhood experiences. Fortunately, we do outgrow them after awhile...or I hope we do. This is how it works: The dog is attempting to enjoy some "down time" on the rug or the front porch. The boy creeps up with a straw and starts gently tickling the dog's foot or his back or his ear. The poor beast gets more and more restless, his skin twitches, his little eye bumps shift around nervously under his closed eyelids, he suspect that there is a fly or some other such pest walking around on him. Presently the dog can't stand it any longer and makes a bunch of sudden snaps at the non-existent "fly", much to the boy's delight. The dog looks around in a weary way, groans or sighs, and attempts to return to dreamland. The boy starts stealthily tickling the dog again...and the whole process repeats itself.

Did I do this in my youth? Yes. And how that poor dog suffered! I have since repented of indulging in that evil habit, and I no longer torture the dog with a straw.

pete - I'm sure we'd find a great deal of common ground. Regarding God being spoken of as "he"...I think that was inevitable in the society that produced the books of the Old and New Testaments. It was a very patriarchal society. Men held all the important positions, they were the ones who ran the religion and the government, and they had the authority. Women were almost treated like property rather than like equal citizens (although some husbands, I'm sure, treated their wives with great love and respect...while some others did not). Anyway, it's almost inconceivable in the society of that time that the males who wrote all the books would have referred to the One God of Moses and Abraham as anything but "He". It wouldn't even have occurred to them to do otherwise.

Therefore I consider it merely indicative of the culture at the time that they did so...not of any innate characteristic of God. I think that a male and female humanity would have to come from a male and female source...that is, a source that either combined both genders...or superceded them in some sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 05:40 PM

sort of like a small boy enjoys torturing the dog with a straw

Bloody 'ell, Musket. Sounds like we have missed a trick in our new religion thread! What the heck is that about then?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 05:35 PM

Still pretty much neck and neck. Even if Don has stopped posting as himself and Greg enjoys a quick sortee into the realms of trying to act intelligent :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 04:55 PM

LH - despite your not givng the same status to scripture as i do, i am finding areas of agreement with you.
though i would not refer to GOD as "she",it is interesting that feminine images of him are found in the bible,and when he made man in his image ,genesis 1 records that it was as male and female "made he them".the personal pronoun however, is always in the muscular,-feminist translations notwithstanding!.
though i do not agree with your more impersonal force image of God [ if i read you right? ] it is true that he is omnipresent.christian theology sees this as being by his Spirit,cf psalm 139 v 7-9.

some insightful comments ,hawk,re some posters always trying to score points or intimidate. i find it sort of strange that people obviously better educated than i am, neverthe less feel the need to attack the person rather than tackle the argument!
regards   pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 04:24 PM

"the overal meaning (of repentance) implies a change of mind and behaviour"

Exactly, pete! Why this shouldn't be obvious to people is a puzzlement to me, but I think they're more just reacting to the word as a "religious word" (therefore wrong in some way?) rather than giving it much real thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 04:22 PM

" taken seriously by rational people"

I am taken seriously by rational people. If you think of yourself as a rational person, or DonT, for that matter, a recent review of your posting histories on this forum should disabuse you of that notion. Certainly you would be more humble if you actually remembered the drivel you post.


I don't know why the local mocking birds' are obsessed with the word "dismiss."

Describing someone as a jerk is not the same as dismissing them.
Nobody had brought up Dawkins as an expert or role model.


If you are asking how I can describe someone as a jerk even if they happen to hold a Phd. The answer is simple enough. It is when they abandon science and logic and stoop to bullying and ridicule.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 04:18 PM

well bill - the Almighty dont play to your rules,he makes the rules.
God in Christ reconciling through sufferring is hardly an image of a God "who cant be bothered"
i am sure that if you dont want to spend eternity with him,he will not force you to.
you come across as sarcastic about what i say [though print on screen can admittedly be misinterpreted] ,and rebellious against God.
but to be positive you do so without the foulmouthing of many posters here.
wishing you the best    pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 03:52 PM

gfs-i looked up "repentance" in the greek just to make sure i replied to you accurately/accorded with my understanding.thankfully it did
gk-metanoia=a change of mode of thought and feeling,repentance,practical reformation;reversal of the past.
so the overal meaning implies a change of mind and behaviour.
btw and no added charge[!]believe-gk pistis;-also means commitment and not just assent to the truth ,which of itself might not lead to any change. pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 03:49 PM

LOL is a common expression online and when texting, etc, Musket. It means "laughing out loud". Some other common ones are:

IMO - in my opinion
FWIW - for what it's worth
IMHO - in my humble opinion
IMNSHO - in my not so humble opinion
WTF - What the fuck?
OMG - Oh my God!

****

In regards to the Poetry Bird post...

There is no chance of ANY of the flame-warriors here diminishing anyone else with their passive-aggressive tactics, name-calling, insults, sneering sarcasm, preening bloviation, etc. But something in them enjoys it, at least in the brief moment of imaginary "victory" over whoever they are going after...sort of like a small boy enjoys torturing the dog with a straw while it's trying to sleep or bulling the smaller boy on the way home from school.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket being patriotic
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 03:42 PM

Dave wouldn't recognise it and neither would many others. What is an asshole?

You arsehole.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 03:16 PM

Did you know the bicycle thread and this one are running neck and neck? Must have some significance. M

Significance, Dave, is the same self-satisfied, delusional, ignorant assholes are posting on both.

I hope you recognize yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Poetry Bird
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 02:40 PM

""And please don't let my opinion that you are an ignorant arrogant blowhard diminish you.""

If you really had as little respect for my opinion as you claim, you wouldn't expend so much energy trying (unsuccessfully) to counter it.

And there isn't the slightest chance of a passive/aggressive wannabe victim diminishing me.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 02:00 PM

Did you know the bicycle thread and this one are running neck and neck? Must have some significance.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket sanctimonious as a sailor
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 01:56 PM

I wish I had such courage of conviction I could dismiss a professor of evolutionary biology and one of the world's leading geneticists as a jerk. Even better, coming from Jerk himself.

How do you reach such personal standards that you can dismiss reality and still demand that you are taken seriously by rational people? They don't perchance use snakes in your church do they? Apparently the venom can help sustain delusions, hence their popularity in shit kicking backwaters.

Have you noticed by the way that not all your detractors can be "taking the piss. " must be a little more to it eh? You said you recognise piss taking on account of visiting England. Either you don't notice it too well in general or you really ought to get out more. ...


LOL. (Does that mean laugh out loud or loss of love. Jerk seems to be using it and I am unsure what he is saying. I don't know what LOL means either.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 01:47 PM

What amazes me, Don T, is how hard most people look around for ways to disagree, rather than looking for a means to reach an accord and a common understanding, and mutual respect.

(I'm not directing criticism at you personally in so saying, I'm just noting something that I see commonly happening, specially on the Net, which is that most people focus mainly on what they disagree about with others. They could instead focus on what they agree about, and they'd usually find that it outweighs the disagreements in a ratio of probably 100 to 1. This is also true in politics and relations between countries...the path of intelligence and wisdom lies in finding out what you have in common with other people and seeking solutions that benefit all parties rather than obsessing over the differences and fighting about them. We would be much better off seeking accord than seeking "victory", whether as nations or as individuals.)

It also gains nothing for us to pursue personal feuds, but you see that happening all the time on this forum. No one is going to "win" any of those feuds.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 01:27 PM

Dawkins is a jerk who rudely mocks people. Obviously you don't see a problem with that because you, DonT, do the same. That's OK that is up to him if he is representing Dawkins. When he does so and claims to represent reason and science there is a problem.

I will comment on such things as a I choose, just as you choose to say unfounded condescending things.

I promise not to let your low opinion of me "diminish me" too much.

And please don't let my opinion that you are an ignorant arrogant blowhard diminish you.

LOL!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 01:09 PM

>>Therefore, I read the Bible with an eye to discernment to find what truth is there....not as a perfect instruction manual that will tell me everything I need to know.<<

If you already know the truth (and you have to to be able to pick it out of the bible verses) then what do you need to read the bible for? It can't tell you anything you don't already know.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 01:08 PM

"They have every right to assert that they do not believe. But they have no right to mock those who don't agree with them."

And vice frickin' versa. They want to believe in fairytales, OK by me as long as they don't attempt to make others live by their delusions.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 12:22 PM

""If it's within us, though, I suspect it would speak to us in a much more subtle way through our thoughts and our feelings and emotions...assuming we were inclined to pay proper attention and listen carefully. Usually we are not so inclined, because we're busy doing other stuff.""

If that were true (and I'm not saying it isn't), and it informed our moral compass, what on earth would be the use of a bunch of black frocked celebrants.

That is precisely why religions, all of them, are irrelevant to my life.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 12:07 PM

""They have every right to assert that they do not believe. But they have no right to mock those who don't agree with them.""

It always intrigues me, that the religious (as opposed to the faithful who believe in a deity) are so exercised by their need to rebut the opinions of non believers.

Just how does anybody else's opinion diminish their status, and why should they give a tuppeny fuck what Steve, Ian, or for that matter Dawkins thinks of them?

The followers of just about every other religion on earth think pretty much the same as Steve about Christianity, and Christians largely have the same view as Steve about those others. But because they are religious their opinions are largely ignored, causing no uproar at all.

But just let anybody who doesn't believe in religion at all post an opinion and all hell breaks loose, in a concerted effort to prove that he belongs to some equal but opposite grouping.

NEWSFLASH: He doesn't, and neither do I. We have our independently arrived at opinions, he not believing in a Deity and I believing in one. What we share is non belief in the pontifications of groups of men purveying a controlling agenda.

Sorry about that, but for obvious reasons it isn't a religion!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 11:23 AM

Pete, What do you mean by 'repent'?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 13 - 11:16 AM

I've been looking thru my collection of quotations.... it often helps me put things into some perspective.


"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there is no good evidence either way." -Bertrand Russell

A wise man once said "If I could prove there was no God I would keep it a secret, lest the world destroy itself'" -R. A. Underwood

"The most important scientific revolutions all include, as their only common feature, the dethronement of human arrogance from one pedestal after another of previous convictions about our centrality in the cosmos." - Stephen Jay Gould

"The beauty of religious mania is that it has the power to explain everything. Once God (or Satan) is accepted as the first cause of everything which happens in the mortal world, nothing is left to chance... logic can be happily tossed out the window."        Stephen King

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 06:35 PM

BillD - "So, L.H.... how would that be different from simple "thoughts feelings and emotions" that were merely our 'ID' and 'superego' as Freud said?.

My answer to that, Bill, is that each person must decide for himself where the difference lies...and if there is one. I can't decide for you. You can't decide for me.

What I am speaking about is, for me, far more than just poetic words.

pete - you quoted from Paul: "in him we live and move and have our being...for we are also his offspring"

Yes, I quite agree with that, although you could also say "in her we live and move and have our being"...if you wanted to say it that way. I think of God as omnipresent and beyond gender, but manifesting in and through both genders and also through genderless things...as the source of all that is.

pete, point #2 - "we do have record of him commissioning the apostles to bear witness to him"

Of course. All spiritual teachers advise their students to bear witness to the teachings they are given and to the source of the teachings. The question in my mind is, "Did Jesus want people to worship him as God? Or did he want them to learn from him and to follow his example and so become like him, thus bringing to actuality the Kingdom of God as a living experience?" I think it was probably the latter, not the former. I think he was attempting to awaken the Christ Spirit in each person, not get them to worship it solely in the form of his own identity. And, yes, I think it sleeps in a potential form in every human being, waiting to be awakened and brought into full expression.

That is one of the most essential teachings in the great Asian religions, and also in some of the more mystical wings of Christianity. To achieve enlightenment is to awaken the Christ within.

We can talk about it all we want, but the only way to make it real is to actually experience it...and that's something that usually takes either a great deal of hard work...or a great capacity to open the heart and surrender...or both. Both pride and fear stand in the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 05:53 PM

What do you mean by 'repent'?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 05:49 PM

"...such a display by God does not guarantee that it will lead to repentance and faith."

Right... as opposed to not bothering... and letting his 'followers' threaten with hellfire & damnnation if we don't have faith & repent just based on 2000 years of hearsay.

If those are God's rules, I doubt I'd want to spend eternity with him. His logic doesn't follow MY rules. (You should have seen the Jehovah's Witnesses' faces when I told them essentially that a few years ago. They don't come 'round any more. I think I'm on a list.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 04:55 PM

yeh bill,there are times when i wish he would do that as well.Hwill end it all one day but as 2 peter 3 v 9 assures us,he has'nt come back yet because he is giving oppotunity for repentance.
as i said in my previous post ,the bible teaching is that such a display by God does not guarantee that it will lead to repentance and faith.
we can assume what we think God might do but i try to be content that he knows best.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 04:40 PM

LH part 2
it is certainly true that we have no record of Jesus itemizing the unfolding of his mission as far as scripture writing was concerned.
however we do have record of him commissioning the apostles to bear witness to him.matthew 28v19f.acts 1 v 8.
he promised that the Holy Spirit would teach them what they could not handle then john 16 v 12-14,and that the Spirit would bring to their memory what he had been teaching them while present with them .john claimed that what he wrote was their testimony of their time with Jesus.1 john 1 v 1-4.his purpose in writing was to advance belief in Christ.john 20 v 30f.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 03:46 PM

"If it's within us, though, I suspect it would speak to us in a much more subtle way through our thoughts and our feelings and emotions...assuming we were inclined to pay proper attention and listen carefully...."

So, L.H.... how would that be different from simple "thoughts feelings and emotions" that were merely our 'ID' and 'superego' as Freud said?.

Does a mystic (Zen & such) who meditates deeply channel some sort of 'godness' that careless little ME misses by merely acting on my...ummm... superficial thoughts, feeling and emotions?

Your concept is 'prettier' and better poetry, but as usual, it seems to like just semantic decoration. (I have pretty, poetic thoughts also at times, but I am aware of their aim & status.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 02:48 PM

i sort of know what you mean LH ,but as bill observed some posts back,something like your idea of the divine being so vague as to have little meaning,i broadly agree.
in a sense i agree in that we all spring from,and are sustained by him.paul quoted greek philosophers in that respect
   ".....he be not far from everyone of us,for in him we live and move and have our being...for we are also his offspring" acts 17 v 27f.
it is clear though from the conclusion of his address to the athenians that he wanted to move them beyond that.
i certainly think it a good thing to listen and meditate but at the end of the day your opnions of God are subjective,not having an objective point of reference.you may not believe it to be entirely reliable as a reference point but it does provide an objective ref point for its believers.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 02:11 PM

Little Hawk, revisit this:

Ever notice, that in a dream, the person IN the dream goes through whatever 'adventure' the dream is about, but YOU, the observer of the dream, feels every emotion, that the character IN the dream is experiencing????? Does that mean the observer(dreamer) doesn't exist??..or maybe the 'Dreamer' is a Reality too close to be named...but if it walked among us................

Something to think about, huh?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 02:04 PM

Bill, I realize it's pete you're talking to...and his position you're addressing, not mine.

What I keep noticing is that the hypothetical scenarios you suggest all involve God as if God were a big separate being of some kind, rather than something that's already existing inside all of us. If a deity was a separate being, then it could perhaps manifest as a big voice speaking to everyone out of the sky.

If it's within us, though, I suspect it would speak to us in a much more subtle way through our thoughts and our feelings and emotions...assuming we were inclined to pay proper attention and listen carefully. Usually we are not so inclined, because we're busy doing other stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 12:46 PM

3oo, and still not thinking!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 12:45 PM

So, are you admitting that you don't think??..or you just ignore thinking??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 12:24 PM

mentally disturbed people claim this sort of thing ... a 'voice' speaking only to me...sort of inside my head...every day.

Indeed. Mental illness - or at least mental aberration - explains a great deal about fundagelical and rapturist beliefs and behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 11:48 AM

Pete.. you asked: "would you believe,even if he spoke directly to you?"

A number or time here at Mudcat I have described scenarios that would be very convincing. (The clouds parting and a voice from above appearing to all humans simultaneously in their own languages, for example.)

Now... *IF* I heard a 'voice' speaking only to me...sort of inside my head... I would be curious, but not convinced. Why? Because mentally disturbed people claim this sort of thing every day... and some use it as explanation for committing terrible crimes. "God told me to do it!"

I assume that *IF* there were a genuine God who was "all powerful" and who wished to speak directly to me, he could do so... (that is sort of included in the definition of "ALL powerful"). But I am sure that "all powerful" is only a human linguistic concept for what we 'imagine' a god to be like. It is an obvious thing to add to a list of 'godly attributes', but it leads to famous conundrums such as "Could God create a stone so heavy He couldn't lift it?" Then the game becomes 'interpreting' the idea so that it is not a contradiction..... and that, Pete, is the most obvious problem for sceptics like me. We see these 'human' concepts, claims, scriptures, stories and ideas in dozens of cultures & religions... and we see people (priests, theologians, translators) spending their lives trying to reconcile confusions and contradictions and promote ONE version as 'true'.
This leads to the obvious example of 'circular reasoning', where they start with the assumption that "there IS one absolute truth", and then construct arguments trying to defend the version they are most familiar with... usually handed to them as children by family & friends.

I ask again... if a "God" wanted this mess to end (including all the war & death over religion) and all people to see the **TRUTH**, why just tell a few people thousands of years ago?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 09:31 AM

pete - I don't doubt that there is much spiritual truth in the Bible (as in many other great books of great religions). I just don't think every single word in every single passage in the Bible is necessarily the unadulterated and entire truth straight from God.

Therefore, I read the Bible with an eye to discernment to find what truth is there....not as a perfect instruction manual that will tell me everything I need to know.

And I note that Jesus, during his entire mission, never once said to his followers: "After I'm gone there will be followers of mine, some of yourself included, who will write a number of Gospels and books about me, those books will be combined with the old Hebrew scriptures you already know, they will become a great book called 'the Bible' and in it will be all the truth about me, about God, and about life, and the new church founded in my name will make it the one book you must study to know the truth. Listen and comprehend!"

Nope. He never said anything of the sort. And he would have if it were so, in my opinion. For the truth, I am inclined to go straight to the source itself...not to a collection of books written by a series of different men about the source.

You see what I mean?

And where is the source? The source is within each one of us. You have to become silent...go within...search...and find it. As Jesus advised. And as Buddha and many others have also advised since antiquity.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 09:18 AM

Gods talk to non believers all the time. The medication you can get these days helps them lead a pretty normal if slightly depressed life.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 09:15 AM

Something to think about, huh?

Something to BELIEVE, perhaps, but thinking doesn't come into it. And there's the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 07:57 AM

well bill,the isrealites heard the voice and saw Gods wonders but did not remain faithful for long.the opponents of Jesus witnessed the raising of lazarus and plotted to kill the raised and the raiser.
jesus told a story about a man in hell.he pleaded that the dead begger be sent to his brothers to warn them,,that they not go to that place of torment.he was told that they had moses and the prophets and if they hear not them, neither will they repent if one gos to them from the dead ..
you have the bible.but of course as you dont trust that the biblical answer its explanation is rejected.
would you believe,even if he spoke directly to you?
i am quite certain that most of the atheists would not,with any genuine conviction, judging from the obvious agressive resistance.
i am not comparing you to them.you are always polite and civil.
all i can say is that the bible promises that those who seek will find.but then we are back to not believing what it says!
and the promise that those who " seek me with all of their hearts will be found of me" hardly applies i should think to those whose response is "shrug!",

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jul 13 - 02:02 AM

Greg: "why would not an "all powerful God" give us poor, confused mortals a clear, unmistakable sign
1. He/She has a perverted sense of humor & likes playing with us?
2. That would take all the fun out of it?
3. He/She is awful busy most of the time?
4. He/She really doesn't give a damn?"

Or, maybe 'God' gave us everything we needed, plus 'freewill' to do with it as we choose....so why blame 'God'??..or not believe there is one? Maybe it's sorta like having a dream...Ever notice, that in a dream, the person IN the dream goes through whatever 'adventure' the dream is about, but YOU, the observer of the dream, feels every emotion, that the character IN the dream is experiencing????? Does that mean the observer(dreamer) doesn't exist??

Something to think about, huh?

GfS

'

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 12:33 PM

"The snag is that children and many vulnerable adults are not well suited to making the distinction (between a moral metaphor and a literal account of something) so forgive me for having a wee bit of contempt for the idea of accepting the privilege religions demand from society."

Hmm. Yeah, just like I have a wee bit of contempt for the privilege that politicians, patriotism-pushers who want to start a war, political parties, armies, intelligence agencies, commercial advertisers, lawyers, corporations, and banks demand from society, eh, Ian? ;-)

I see it as the same basic problem humanity has encountered in every major field of concern. You get a privileged elite of some kind who set themselves up in a position of power...and they are tempted to abuse that position...and they are able to because they manage to lead a lot of people astray or overawe a lot of people...or just because they have the money and the authority on their side.

No reason to be surprised that it has happened that way over and over again with religions too.

Anyway, every society has some people in it who take a metaphor literally, thus misunderstanding its real purpose...and other people who get the metaphor and do understand its real purpose. Consider the Native peoples of the Americas. They had all kinds of colourful and dramatic tales about Creation, about the origins of Man and the various plants and animals, about the origins of life itself and of the planet, even about the Cosmos. Some Indians probably took those mythical tales absolutely literally...perhaps the majority of them did. Others no doubt understood that those tales were allegorical in nature, and not to be taken literally, but usually to demonstrate a moral principle of some kind. (In either case, I don't think the Indians' lives were damaged by those tales....they were greatly enriched by them.)

And thus it will always be with human beings...some can't see beyond the surface of a metaphorical statement...while others can. When you can see beyond the surface of a myth and understand what the myth is telling you about your own life, then it can serve a useful purpose in your life.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 12:25 PM

L.H. ... do I have to insert disclaimers & parameters for everything I say?

When I refer to "an all powerful God", I MEAN one whom someone ELSE imagines as an independent Being who 'cares' and monitors our doings. Pete accepts something like this. You are the one who defines God as this amorphous concept..." the entire continuum OF all existence..."the Aplha to the Omega"...infinite and eternal presence...beyond time and space."

I get the general thrust of your idea... which I have noted before as feeling to me as so general & vague as to not even deserve a name. It is the term as referring to a concious, superior Being that Pete & I are occasionally discussing. He is sure there is one.. I don't officially deny that, as I can't prove it one way or another.. I just 'doubt'.

Okay?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 12:03 PM

The evidence seems to suggest we have fairly reliable measures of the laws of physics. Considering Scripture of any type, regardless of origin, had moments of contradicting what we know to be reliable fact, it does drag any and all these threads on religion down to two subjects-those who use the metaphor to give their moral compass and those with whom it is ultimately futile to debate with, as fantasy cannot be contradicted by fact and facts have no need for fantasy.

It comes down to what you believe and what you traditionally believe.   The snag is that children and many vulnerable adults are not well suited to making the distinction so forgive me for having a wee bit of contempt for the idea of accepting the privilege religions demand from society.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 09:36 AM

why would not an "all powerful God" give us poor, confused mortals a clear, unmistakable sign

1. He/She has a perverted sense of humor & likes playing with us?

2. That would take all the fun out of it?

3. He/She is awful busy most of the time?

4. He/She really doesn't give a damn?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 12:54 AM

And I just screwed up the html in that last post. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 12:48 AM

Bill, you said, "why would not an "all powerful God" give us poor, confused mortals a clear, unmistakable sign or some absolute evidence that we could not argue with?"

This question again assumes a separate and human-like being that for some reason needs something from people...which is, I think, a ridiculous way to conceive of God. That which is the source of all existence doesn't need anything from anyone, and doesn't demand anything from anyone, nor pity them either, but simply makes all things possible all the time by empowering living beings with presence, life, and existence. Existence itself needs nothing from us, Bill, but we need it in every moment of our lives.

The point isn't that we are poor or confused. That's a very negative way of looking at this life experience. The point is that we are life itself, experiencing life itself, and that's a magnificent and endlessly creative situation to be in...so we should celebrate it! And that's exactly what very wise people do. They celebrate the wonder of life and are very creative in whatever way suits them best.

I don't believe that most people mock to convince. I think they mock primarily in order to feel good about themselves by diminishing someone else. They look around hopefully all the time for someone they think is probably stupider or more vulnerable than they are, and when they find what they think is a good target, they have great fun mocking that person just like bullies in a schoolyard have fun bullying "nerds", smaller kids or anyone they think is vulnerable.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jul 13 - 12:38 AM

Jack Sprocket, no one can either prove OR disprove the existence of God, because God is not defined as an isolated phenomenon that can BE observed, quantified, proven or disproven through any empirical means. God is not defined as a physically existing thing...nor as a thing made up of atoms, moleculs, waveforms or other such observable phenomena.

God is either inclusive of ALL phenomena...therefore unobservable in any discrete through our senses...or is beyond phenomena altogether.

God may be consciousness itself...or the source OF consciousness. How do you go about observing that? You can't. But you can experience it.

If God is ALL being, then we are constantly experiencing God...whether we know it or not...but we can't observe God, because we would then be included within the totality that is God. If God is the unobservable source of all being (as is asserted at the higher esoteric levels of most great religious traditions, then again, God can certainly be experienced...and is experienced all the time...but cannot be observed, because we can't observe something that is not separate from us in the first place. We can know it...or not know it...but we cannot observe it, because it isn't outside of us to BE observed. We are within it, and so is everything else.

I think when you hear the world "God" you picture the idea of a separate being. That isn't the nature of God, in my opinion. God is the entire continuum OF all existence..."the Aplha to the Omega"...infinite and eternal presence...beyond time and space. All the various things we can observe are separate parts and pieces of that infinite space-time continuum. It is the fact that they ARE finite which makes them observable. God isn't finite. (though some religious people imagine a rather finite God...specially if they are literal thinkers who want a "Daddy" figure they can relate to as if to a very big and powerful human being).

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 07:12 PM

Pete... why would not an "all powerful God" give us poor, confused mortals a clear, unmistakable sign or some absolute evidence that we could not argue with? (If the clouds parted and a voice said "Pay Attention!". I would.) I don't know that he is reported to have spoken directly to anyone since Moses... and Moses was alone on that mountain. 2000 years is pretty long to go without direct clarification.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 06:52 PM

"They have every right to mock those ..."...etc.

What an interesting formulation. I suppose anyone has a 'right' to mock anyone else whom they believe to be careless or ignorant about a subject and who still "assume a position of authority" on it.
The question is: who are they hoping to convince with their mockery? Or failing that, who are they hoping to impress with their erudite superiority, couched in clever mockery?
I am all in favor of clearly and carefully arguing one's position... point by tedious point. I do think however, that if your opinion of a person and their opinion is so low that you have no respect for them... why bother? (Yes...I have met such people. I used to be active in the USA Civil Rights movement in the 60s & 70s. There were people I just didn't bother with due to a stubbornness based on hate and ignorance... I have also met people whose religious bent was to **inform** me that I was a sinner and was 'going to Hell'. I couldn't be bothered to 'mock' them.)

Religion is a special topic among the many that humans confront each other about. It DOES involve out entire recorded history and has affected almost every aspect of our struggles to come to terms with our very existence. It is extremely complicated, both sociologically and emotionally, and as such deserves more than just posturing.. from either side.

I will debate, discuss, argue, explain,..etc..when I am free & able .... but I will not 'mock' as long as the discussion remains basically cordial. Others who choose to exercise their "right" to ridicule and mock may as well do it in front a mirror, for all the good it does.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 06:28 PM

i could go through all the instances of dating that dont add up but it would be time consuming,and unlike you,s apparently are,am not qualified in geology and dating methods, and would be at a disadvatage.and any evidence of way out dating would either be dismissed as lies or misunderstanding.
it is obviously impossible to prove the historical accuracy of the gospels but it is worth considering that luke claimed to have done a thorough investigation.luke 1 v1-4.i suppose it could be claimed that he lied,was hoodwinked,or that was a later addition.
gainsayers will always find something to avoid the face value account.
believers like myself that believe in an all powerful God,say why on earth should it not be true?.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Jack Sprocket
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 06:00 PM

"concepts he cannot disprove (such as the existance of God) "

Sorry, it's not up to him to disprove it. It's up to you to prove it. And spell it right.

" I am conscience of the limits of their expertise"

You show no indication of any understanding of what they are talking about. They have every right to mock those who assume a position of authority on subjects which are "logically unknowable"- because they are just as unknowable from any other perspective. Or if you claim they aren't, come up with some evidence why it's so.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 05:51 PM

"Pushing against an open door."

The only issue I have with the religious discussions on this site are the name calling and pushiness of certain unbelievers who will complain about religion vehemently.

It is not credible to contend that vehement behavior comes from a lack of belief.

I pointed this out to a couple of people more than a year ago and they stopped attacking religious posts. There are a couple of stragglers who have not.

There is a misperception about Steve Shaw. Apparently DonT and others believe that he always argues the same thing and that he always argues from a scientific perspective. This could not be further from the truth. He seems to have fallen into the same psychological trap that engulfed Mr. Dawkins.


Mr. Dawkins gained a lot of respect in the scientific community by explaining evolution in layman's terms and counterin creationism with logic.

But as he explains in his Ted Talk, that was not enough. His Scientist colleagues were not convinced by his logic. The God Delusion was the start of his crusade against the wishy washy and less "fundamental." Now he calls believers "delusional" and mocks concepts he cannot disprove (such as the existance of God) by quoting the good-natured comedian Douglas Adams in equating the belief to fairies at the end of the garden. In other words, what he cannot disprove, he mocks.

I think the defense of science against anti-science is a very good thing. If it is done scientifically and logically. But when it is combined with bullying and name calling and dubious appeals to authority. When the goal is pursued in illogical ways that only bring question to the credibility of the "defender" so when Dawkins claims to speak as a scientist and calls people names or when Shaw claims to speak as a science teacher who calls people names. I feel obliged to point out that when they step outside their fields they lose the right to speak for their fields.

I know a lot of you like Dawkins and Mr. Shaw. I like them too. I am conscience of the limits of their expertise and I am not inclined to give them credit for knowing the scientifically and logically unknowable. They have every right to assert that they do not believe. But they have no right to mock those who don't agree with them.

And this assertion by some that those who do not have a religion don't have a stance. Do even you believe that Ian? It is my belief that you were taking the piss when you said that.




vehemently

ve·he·ment
[vee-uh-muhnt]
adjective
1.
zealous; ardent; impassioned: a vehement defense; vehement enthusiasm.
2.
characterized by rancor or anger; violent: vehement hostility.
3.
strongly emotional; intense or passionate: vehement desire.
4.
marked by great energy or exertion; strenuous: vehement clapping.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 03:16 PM

"The question I ask is what can I learn about the miracles to apply to my own life?"

Exactly! What is important is not whether the reported "miracles" (unusual and striking events) were literally just as described...or whether the stories are allegorical ones in various ways...but what you can learn from those stories to apply to your own life.

That is the crux of the matter.

The writers of the Gospels certainly were authors, each with his own version of the story to tell...and you can see that they bring different viewpoints forward in how they tell the story. The mood in John's gospel is quite different from in Matthew's, Mark's, or Luke's gospels. Then there's Paul, who again has a different slant on things. I look upon them as normal, fallible men who were probably all speaking what to them was perceived as the truth, but from different personal perspectives and with different concerns. So those gospels do serve as a general sort of guide to what happened, but not as the final or perfect authority on what happened. The only way you could have that was to have been there yourself and seen it with your own eyes.

The real question is, as Jack said, "what can I learn about...(the teachings and example given by Jesus)...to apply to my own life?"

Therein lies the challenge, and the possibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket sans credibility
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 03:15 PM

Well stop pushing against an open door then. Nobody to my knowledge has ever dismissed the comfort blanket aspect of having faith, nor indeed dismissed the metaphor as a moral compass.

The issue as ever has been trying to convince the rest of the population religion has something to offer the rest of the population. Whilstever people associate their religion with fantasy as reality, such as the rapture, virgins giving birth after a dude with wings visited her, resurrection, intelligent design of a type that is described, flying carpets, revelations etc, it is not enough to ignore the gullible ones, , the more rational members need to not be associated with fantasy as a lever for social design if they are ever going to retain credibility in the 21st century.

At this time, the church of England, possibly the least radical Christian cult and historically acceptable, is debating in their synod whether women can get top jobs and whether gay people should have the same rights as the rest of society. If I heard a reasonable argument it would stop me in my tracks, but with UK equality legislation, why should they have privilege above the law?

Despite Dumbfuckistan, at least your side of the pond, government is officially secular.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 02:49 PM

"Is it apocryphal or did a Tea Party Republican politician say, when lamenting the rise of Spanish as language, that if English was good enough for Jesus it's good enough for Americans. "

It was a politician in Texas more than 50 years ago (46 years before the tea party) as per a story I heard on a PBS panel discussion last night. Knowing a little of the history of Texas at that time, she may well have a Democrat speaking tongue in cheek.

Aside from the childish name calling Ian has made a good point. On the scale of Ian to Pete in belief in Biblical miracles, I think, I am somewhat more a believer than Little Hawk's friend. But I am not qualified to analyze the events of 2013 years ago. I can't question the veracity of events I didn't witness. Yes the Romans as a society were experienced and presumably competent executioners. But there were a hundred possible ways that particular one could have been botched or faked. But clever Ian, that would preclude a miracle having happened, wouldn't it? But we don't know what the nature and technology of Jesus' miracles. We do know that people who talked to the disciples who witnesses the miracles seemed to believe in them.

Do I believe in the miracles of Jesus? Of course I do. I am a great fan of Lord Raglan and Joe Campbell and their discussions of the powerful myths and a social consciousness that bind nearly all societies together. Jesus is a part of that. To some, to me the very apex of that.

Do I believe that any or all of the miracles actually happened as described? I wasn't there as Ian and LH have pointed out there is the possibility of observer bias and second hand information degradation.

But for me, pete, that misses the point. The question I as is what can I learned about the miracles to apply to my own life?

He turned the water into wine? Drinking alcohol is not inherently wrong?

He healed the lame and cured the blind? Charity is rewarding?

He rose from the dead after humiliation and torture? Persevere. There is hope for us all?

I don't recall his name but there is a theologian up I40 in Chapel Hill who writes about the authors of the Gospels. I don't remember his name. If he is right the recent discussions here has been vindicated but has also sold them short. According to a talk I heard by him the basic points of the Gospel were well known in Christan circles of the time, both in word of mouth and probably in writings and letters that did not survive. But he also describes different theological beliefs influencing the style of writing and the details included.

His controversial assertion is that they were authors with their own version of the story to tell.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 12:44 PM

Is it apocryphal or did a Tea Party Republican politician say, when lamenting the rise of Spanish as language, that if English was good enough for Jesus it's good enough for Americans.

I heard it via a mate, but Chinese whispers and all that.

If newspapers can get it wrong after 10 mins, story tellers a couple of hundred years after the event stand no chance. Hence my questioning moral compass versus an actual bloke who was born of a virgin who performed acts that cannot be done and rose from the dead.   What we do know is that the Romans weren't sloppy when it came to crucifixion.

Oh, false alarm. The relative rang yesterday so pete hasn't missed it after all.

Anyone got the latest date? I need to build a few kennels and make a mint.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 12:44 PM

That is for sure, Don.

Like you say, the Gospel writers cherry-picked (and edited) what information they were able to acquire in order to serve their own purposes. I think some of them were alive in Jesus' own time, though, and personally witnessed some of the events they report on...still that doesn't mean that what they wrote about it isn't without prejudice or various political agendas.

There were also a number of apocryphal writings from people in the early church which many at the time considered equally valid, but which were edited out of the officially sanctioned documents which became the Christian Bible. And there were power struggles within the Church throughout its history over all kinds of doctrinal issues. What we mostly hear now is the viewpoints of those who won those power struggles.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 12:20 PM

""This didn't prevent her from being a very capable Christian minister or from finding powerful meaning in what Jesus taught and demonstrated about conduct and morality.""

Even those, like myself, who do not subscribe to any religious grouping, can find a model for life and behaviour in the teachings attributed to Jesus.

There is little doubt that he was a real person and that he was a Rabbi (in the truest sense of the word).

However, these events weren't recorded until over a hundred years after his death, by men who had never known him and relied upon anecdotal information to produce the New Testament.

Even then, the accounts recorded by those gospel makers were heavily cherry picked to serve the agenda of those compiling the record.

It's a chastening thought that if Jesus did come back today, the people most likely to kill him are the Chritian Fundamentalists of the US bible belt.

They forgot the most important of his teachings a long time ago.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 10:03 AM

Yes, indeed. Well said, sir.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket sans Bach
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 09:56 AM

You describe many of my friends and family, and I have friends who are of the cloth as well as many friends and colleagues who take their faith very seriously, especially someof our Muslim friends and colleagues


In an earlier thread, the metaphor versus the literal was debated, and I am sure always will. This thread is about a literal interpretation of ancient documents. It must be frustrating for people to be lumped with the petes of this world by ignoramus types such as me.   Yet rather than challenge their destructive effect on faith, people try to engage with them which may be laudable but increases the risk of being dismissed as delusion. My question above was based on two interpretations of the word "truth"

Nobody gives a shit whether I or anybody else who isn't a member thinks them deluded and neither should they. But when religions try to exert influence on communities, they are subject to scrutiny.

And found lacking. Chiefly through relevance.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 09:27 AM

The entire field of all existence and of all further potential possibilities can put up with anything, Don T, because it's not bothered by anything....including you! ;-) Or me either, for that matter...not to mention Greg F.

As for Jesus, I think people lay too much of a burden on him. They should have followed his example instead of turning him into an idol to worship.

Ian - I had an interesting discussion last week with a very bright woman who is a retired Anglican minister. She's a Christian, but she doesn't believe in the Resurrection in a physical sense. She thinks of it in a spiritual sense, that the soul probably survives bodily death...but she's not absolutely certain about that either. What do I think about the Resurrection? I don't know. There may have been a physical Resurrection of Jesus or there may have been a spiritual Resurrection of him or it may all be legendary...I can't say. I'm willing to consider the various possibilities rather than just issuing pat denials of them as many people would, but I wasn't there, so I simply can't say for sure, and I don't intend to believe things other people tell me just because they happen to believe those things for some reason that they can't really explain.

When I say that the above lady is a Christian, you may ask "What does she believe, then?" Briefly: she believes in the validity, great value, and general good sense of what Jesus taught and demonstrated about forgiveness, non-violence, not judging others, treating others as you would wish to be treated yourself, bravely confronting unjust forces in society, speaking the truth, being responsible, helping people in need, etc...and she has tried to follow his example and pattern her own life on his teachings. As I said, she's a very bright woman and a very independent thinker.

She does not believe a lot of the standard traditional Christian doctrine that's in the Bible such as the physical Resurrection, the "virgin" birth, the idea of Jesus being a "sacrifice" for humanity's sins, the idea that God is a male super-being, the idea that Adam and Eve were 2 people who started the whole human race, the idea that Noah took 2 of every kind of animal in the world into a giant boat and saved them...etc...and so on, and so on. She regards most of that stuff as either legends (many of which came from previous religions anyway)....or symbolic parables...or both.

This didn't prevent her from being a very capable Christian minister or from finding powerful meaning in what Jesus taught and demonstrated about conduct and morality.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 08:16 AM

Jesus can take 'um where ever he wants... Just take 'um...

Bobert, what the heck makes you think Jesus WANTS 'em? He's not crazy, ya know.

Now, if he would just DISAPPEAR 'em, that's a whole other story....

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 07:28 AM

I reckon the real RAPTURE will be that which the rest enjoy, when all the fundies have been removed.

The world will be a better place, but I pity the God who has to put up with them.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Ian Mather not Musket so shut up Jerk
Date: 11 Jul 13 - 07:24 AM

Does anyone here distinguish between believing in the resurrection and believing the resurrection physically happened?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 08:24 PM

Well, pete...if you 'suppose' you could be missing something, why not examine the entire argument...all sides of it?

The point about rock dating is that SOME rocks and/or minerals are clearly many millions of years old. This is proven beyond any reasonable doubt. The age of proven materials, combined with other scientific data shows us that 'life' is pretty old, and that we humans are a fairly recent developement....not thousands of years old, but several million. In terms of proven ages of other stuff, that IS recent.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 07:42 PM

bill-i must admit that i did wonder if elements from vast ages ago [for sake of argument] could be retained in a recent lava flow.
but then i thought- how could you be sure when any rock formed,after all the dating could be miscalculated by former elements.
the recent rock formed from lava and was misdated.
so if we cant trust the dating of rock of known age of forming,why should we trust the dating of unknown age. sigh.
i suppose i could be missing something in the argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 07:29 PM

""how much carbon to begin with or if the rate of decay has always been constant.""

Genuine science has examined every isotope in the periodic table stable enough to examine, plus several that only exist for milliseconds in earth conditions, and it has yet to find any single isotope that DOESN'T have a constant rate of decay and a fixed half life.

And once again, there are NO Creation Scientists, only people with degrees in unrelated subjects and a religious fundamentalist mindset.

The REAL scientists are archaeologists, paleontologists, geologists and biologists, none of whom would give your concept Young Earth Creationism a second's thought, or the slightest credence.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 07:13 PM

""Well with Shaw, it s more like

"Change your mind you !! It is true because I have thought about it and MY belief in my own opinion is not faith or belief it is science."""

Nothing could be further from a true representation of what Steve said.

In fact, it is much more redolent of the religious fundamentalist stance.

I don't know whether that asinine misrepresentation indicates a genuine misunderstanding on your part, or a deliberate choice of wilful ignorance.

His stance is based upon drawing conclusions from the results of overwhelming scientific evidence, evidence accepted by the vast majority of Christians insofar as it relates to evolution and the age of this planet.

Your stance is based upon your inability to stop picking at a sore that plagues you, over which you have no control, that there exist some people who simply don't believe as you do. So you, to justify your beliefs, find it necessary that they accept your categorisation of their position as an opposing faith.

Pete has a good brain, which he refuses to exercise, as doing so would destroy the fixed determination to believe that a book of fables, anecdotes and control mechanisms, laced with a very flimsy framework of historical events, is in every respect inerrant truth. Pete's brain has been thoroughly washed by some very clever evangelists, and no logical thought whatever is permitted therein.

Hence, he cannot ever approach any scientific treatise which does not come from his (non existent) ""Creation Scientists"", for fear of being contaminated by logic and reason.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 06:51 PM

bill- i was quite aware that you would not believe in the ressurection.i was wondering if jack did.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 06:23 PM

"...dating methods can be wildly wrong."


No... if you understand the physics behind radioactive decay, it cannot be "wildly" wrong. It is not accurate to days or weeks, but in thousands of years it is pretty clear. It is not about "how much carbon", but rather the amount of radioactive decay in any amount of C14.

" rock formed from volcanic action this century have been "dated"as millenia old.

*sigh* volcanic deposits are FROM material that was melted or disturbed from MANY ages. It is perfectly possible for magma from last week to have components dating much longer ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 06:11 PM

Pete... *I* have no doubt that there is much historical data in the bible. Many of the locations and a number of the characters are known from other sources. I will even concede that the story of Jesus may have historical referents.... there may indeed have been a preacher who inspired stories to be told about him.
   However... the best analysis of various texts and comparisons of known events suggests that the 4 gospels were set down between 70 & 200 years AFTER the death of Jesus.

(see long discussion here)

ALL stories were cobbled together by various scribes from sparse documents... and in such interesting stories, it is more than possible that stories were enlarged and embroidered by story tellers...a perfectly natural thing to do. The problem is with things like 'resurrection' that it is very hard to put it in perspective since we have NO clear proof as to where a tomb was and not even a story about witnesses as to its opening or any large stones..etc. Those details are ONLY stories... the kind that WOULD be written if one wanted to inspire awe & belief. So...no, resurrection is not scientifically respectable. It remains a matter of 'belief'.... as do many of the details of Jesus' life.
There are very good reasons why people say they **believe** in various things..if we had strong evidence from many sources, other words would be used.

There is an important principle about the process of reasoning and logic... it says: " From false premises, ANYTHING follows!" This means that if someone has even SOME facts incorrect, they can derive many conclusions from them. This happens in religious areas, as not *all* the different opinions can be factually true.
It does not prove any one false... it merely reminds us that IF we see contradictory conclusions, we should suspect some incorrect premises somewhere. If it is not possible to test all the premises, the best course is to refrain from committing to a judgment. That is what a good skeptic does.... and why it IS possible to 'believe' the bible as a good and inspiring guide and to 'believe' in a creator without committing to a literal view of its contents.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 06:09 PM

yes bill,i am aware that the dating methods usually give results in the tens of thousands of years.
however i am also aware that the methods employ starting assumption.for example ,how much carbon to begin with or if the rate of decay has always been constant.
creationists suggest that it may not have been constant.the flood conditions could have radically altered the rate.admittedly that cannot be proven.
what we do know however is that dating methods can be wildly wrong.
for example rock formed from volcanic action this century have been "dated"as millenia old.
i read the new rob link.i reserve judgement as to whether it is only ghost dna discovered.up to feb 13 the article infers that is the case.
we shall see whether his "sloppy" charge holds up.
in the meantime there is still all the other stuff that at one time would be considered impossible after 65 MYO.

btw.are people getting bored,so they try to bate steve to post!?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 05:11 PM

ok jack- apologies first for blunder. i should have said-
   dna in dinos and radio carbon in diamonds.
i agree the bible is not a modern science book.it is as you describe but in an historical framework.i have no idea if you accept any of it as historical.forexample the ressurection? that is,nt scientifically respectable either,is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 03:22 PM

Not to change the subject but I'd be perfectly happy if Jesus would come and take all these self-righteous, Old Testament thumpin', Talibanish, boorish and creepy Christians the heck away...

Jesus can take 'um where ever he wants... Just take 'um...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 03:02 PM

Right Greg... that will surely make 'ignorance' go away.

Bad news: NOTHING will make the creationist ignorance "go away" except the death of the individuals involved.

Or possibly their being "taken up" in The Rupture.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 02:42 PM

Well with Shaw, it s more like

"Change your mind you !! It is true because I have thought about it and MY belief in my own opinion is not faith or belief it is science."

Shaw has come to the point of answering questions that science can't answer with "Because I said so." It doesn't work for Dawkins, I don't know why Shaw would think it would work for him.


With pete, its absorbing enough information to string along the argument without learn enough to change his own mind. Its a fine line. But keep in mind that he is starting with the premise of scientists being a buffet from which he can pick and choose according to his tastes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 12:55 PM

Right Greg... that will surely make 'ignorance' go away. Steve Shaw can tell you...

Just be like Lucy in the "Peanuts" comic strip...yell at him/them....

Old Peanuts cartoon:

Lucy, talking to Linus: "Change your mind!"
Linus just looks at her.
Lucy.."CHANGE YOUR MIND!!
Linus looks more intimidated...
Lucy.."CHANGE YOUR MIND, I SAY!!"

Lucy, walking away, disgruntled and mumbling."Boy, it's hard to get people to change their minds these day!"

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 12:41 PM

The non-acceptance does not amount to a shrug, but to ignorant bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 10:47 AM

Yes Rob... I read a couple of sites that stress that certain microscopic structural areas in well-preserved fossils look like they might be indicative of where DNA was once located.
So far, it seems that actual DNA can be dated to 'only' about 800,000 years...with traces in some insects in Amber.

We can point to these...but if one does not accept ANY dating as being older than 5000-8000 years,...*shrug*

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 10 Jul 13 - 05:25 AM

Bill,

This link is more recent (2013) than my previous one:
Web Site Link

A quote from it: Additionally, the team found that when they applied a test to locate DNA in the dinosaurs, the test responded positively and identified the structural ghosts of DNA within the dinosaur 'cells'! Theirs is no direct evidence that this DNA is actually from the organism itself...[...]...However, (again), due to the low positive reaction of the dinosaur cells (these are definitely dinosaur cells, it's the DNA in them that is questionable) there may not be enough to recover sufficient amounts of usable DNA.

So what has been found are "structural ghosts" not the DNA itself...and even then, the "ghosts" may not be related to DNA from the organism itself. So Pete's assertion that "dino DNA has definitely been found" is actually wrong, re the present state of research, and is yet another example of the sloppy and partial sources he uses over-egging the pudding to pander to their own prejudices rather than limiting their conclusions to what the evidence actually shows!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 04:11 PM

"while confessing my faith in the bible as trustworthy and reliable,"

Hold on there buddy!

I have faith in The Bible, as a book of spiritual guidance and wisdom. But it is NOT a modern science text.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 03:54 PM

First search re: ancient DNA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_DNA#Antediluvian_DNA_studies

copied from that page: "The post-PCR era heralded a wave of publications as numerous research groups tried their hands at aDNA. Soon a series of incredible findings had been published, claiming authentic DNA could be extracted from specimens that were millions of years old, into the realms of what Lindahl (1993b) has labelled Antediluvian DNA. The majority of such claims were based on the retrieval of DNA from organisms preserved in amber. "

". A critical review of ancient DNA literature through the development of the field highlights that few recent studies have succeeded in amplifying DNA from remains older than several hundred thousand years.[13] A greater appreciation for the risks of environmental contamination and studies on the chemical stability of DNA have resulted in concerns being raised over previous reported results. The Dinosaur DNA was later revealed to be human Y-Chromosome,[14], while the DNA reported from encapsulated halobacteria has been criticized based on its similarity to modern bacteria, which hints at contamination.[15] Recent work also suggest that these bacterial DNA samples may not have survived from ancient times but may instead be the product of long-term, low-level metabolic activity.[16]"

Now... if you already reject the idea that even 'hundreds of thousands of years' is possible, it is hard to debate the issue. We DO have the <>a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ötzi>"IceMan" from the Italian/Austrian Alps who has been dated to 5300 years ago.

Woolly mammoths have been found that date up to 35,000 years old..but:    "time and harsh weather conditions inexorably degrade DNA, splitting it up into millions of tiny snippets that are extremely difficult to piece together. For instance, a 2012 study found that in bone, half of the chemical bonds in DNA break down within 521 years after death, and the genetic material degrades completely by 6.8 million years."


I read 3/4 of this article, wondering at why they were messing with the data so freely before I realized what ICR stood for.

http://www.icr.org/article/dinosaur-dna-research-tale-wagging/

Pete..we CAN do pretty accurate dating on both soft tissue and material encased in rock/stone... using different methods. Both methods have identified material older than you wish to date the entire Earth.... something has to be reconciled...hmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 03:40 PM

Greg F: You're quoting out of context. I put quotation marks around the word "scientific" in my orignal comment which I think gets across the meaning. It only became oxymoronic when you removed the quotation marks when you re-posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 03:31 PM

If you, or any source you are reading are claiming that DNA can survive the process that forms a diamond, it is hard to take that seriously.

The most hardy protein such as DNA cannot survive temperatures much more than 100 degrees C. and a couple of atmospheres of pressure.

For diamonds form naturally...

"The formation of natural diamond requires very specific conditions—exposure of carbon-bearing materials to high pressure, ranging approximately between 45 and 60 kilobars (4.5 and 6 GPa), but at a comparatively low temperature range between approximately 900 and 1,300 °C (1,652 and 2,372 °F). These conditions are met in two places on Earth; in the lithospheric mantle below relatively stable continental plates, and at the site of a meteorite strike.[10]"

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 03:26 PM

creationist web sites he goes to for his scientific input

And yet anothter oxymoron.

Will the bullshit never end?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 03:19 PM

part 2
credit to you bill if you look up the info.
i am surprised that jack suspects some frivolous purpose in posting in this discussion.i take my faith and the defense of what i believe seriously.for Gods honour and concern for unbelievers.i think you and i,bill,have communicated long enough for you at least to accept that i am telling the truth.
in the previous post you claimed or implied,i think,that the current mass of data rendered the creationist position very implausible.i would counter by saying that we all have the same data - it is the interpretation of it that matters.it is a matter of competing worldviews.nevertheless i think it worth challenging specfic points.
all the rest is tossing assertions around.
while confessing my faith in the bible as trustworthy and reliable, i have not majored on it here. by contrast evolutionists often offer theological objections to discussion of origins.
you are bordering on that,and while i dont wish to seem evasive,-at this stage i am stressing that some cause/maker is consistent with our experience in life of anything else that is made.or of life only coming from life .
i say again ,to posit what is never seen or proved is a faith position.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 02:50 PM

amen to the wry grin,bill.
i happily concede CMI is my main source,but i have often read yours and others links.i have just read robs link.it does not seem to support robs suggestion of contamination.
but then again,maybe i misunderstand him as he seems to imply re diamonds discussion.as far as that goes i cant remember the details now but i do understand that diamond is very resistant to contamination,though i remember penny claiming it could be.
the rob link stressed that this possibility was eliminated.contamination claims in the laboratory ,of course, cast doubt either on the lab or the method in general.the dino findings seem pretty much authenticated,despite the disbelief and opposition described.just goes to show just how much some evolutionists follow the evidence wherever it leads-smile.
i am often charged with being closed to the evidence.i wonder how much soft tissue and DNA etc has to be found in dinos and diamonds before darwinists abandon their faith in long ages.
i predict it wont happen for most.they will just decide it did get preserved ,however much they find.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 01:31 PM

Thanks for the information Rob Naylor. It is interesting and enlightening.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 01:29 PM

Cool Bill, I do get the distinct impression that he is having these discussions more for sport than enlightenment. But you are correct. He does not dwell in the gutter of name calling. He deserves credit and respect for that. I am glad to read that you have other goals. Trying to convince him may be futile.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 11:54 AM

Jack & Rob-- I am quite aware of Pete's reliance on creationist web sites and his misinterpretation of much of what I discuss with him.
I don't really believe he is 'winding me up', and my seemingly hopeless attempts to show him a better way keeps ME thinking and exploring how to present my arguments. I hope that, whether Pete ever agrees with me or not, he at least sees what I am getting at. Further...if Mudcat lasts another 15 years, there may be someone else to whom this sort of debate is interesting, and I simply want the best answers possible to be presented.

As long as a discussion is civil and no expletives are exchanged, I will 'assume' an honest exchange. Pete & I have so far managed this in spite of sarcasm from the sidelines... *wry grin*

It will be fine....

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket answering little hawk
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 09:11 AM

True,there is no arbiter of what institutes unhinged.

My point is that here, Bishops have the right to scrutinise legislation in the upper house (Lords Spiritual) and some of them support, condone and possibly believe the rapture. No matter when they are just passing the collection bowl for the church roof fund, but affecting the whole country?

If the church was disestablished, it would help them too, as the majority would not have reason to question them. We don't question the hon. Secretary of The Barnsley and Dodworth Pigeon Fanciers Association, so wouldn't need to question what for the vast majority is and should be irrelevant. If they want to be taken seriously, and they do, they should disassociate themselves from absurd idiocy such as raptures, miracles and other sundry nonsense. I love to daydream too, but I don't let my superhuman powers affect my judgment when such judgement affects others.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 09 Jul 13 - 08:45 AM

Bill D:

As usual, Pete's relying on the very partial and heavily-edited comments on the creationist web sites he goes to for his "scientific" input, without, as I've pleaded with him many times, making the effort to gain some true understanding of real science himeself.

I *could* spend some time here correcting his misapprehensions about dinosaur DNA. However, re the "C14-diamond" discussion, where I took a long time over explaining his misconceptions only to have him dismiss my detailed rebuttal with a couple of lines showing how *totally* he'd misunderstood both the explanation *and* the evidence that the sites he relies on for his "science" continue to use discredited explanations sometimes for years after they've been discredited, it'd be a waste of time and energy.

In fact, the early "dino DNA" discoveries...from around 1995-2004 were shown not to have been dino DNA at all but to have been due to sample contamination. Since the 1990s to the present day, Schweitzer et al have been working with samples from which they've isolated *cell-like* structures and probably proteins. However, there is no reliable evidence that they've actually isolated dinosaur DNA.

To quote her own reactions (and she's a very strong evangelical Christian, not an atheist or agnostic):

Young-earth creationists also see Schweitzer's work as revolutionary, but in an entirely different way. They first seized upon Schweitzer's work after she wrote an article for the popular science magazine Earth in 1997 about possible red blood cells in her dinosaur specimens. Creation magazine claimed that Schweitzer's research was "powerful testimony against the whole idea of dinosaurs living millions of years ago. It speaks volumes for the Bible's account of a recent creation."

This drives Schweitzer crazy. Geologists have established that the Hell Creek Formation, where B. rex was found, is 68 million years old, and so are the bones buried in it. She's horrified that some Christians accuse her of hiding the true meaning of her data. "They treat you really bad," she says. "They twist your words and they manipulate your data." For her, science and religion represent two different ways of looking at the world; invoking the hand of God to explain natural phenomena breaks the rules of science.

It might be worth a look at:

Discover Magazine Article

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 06:48 PM

Bill, He's just winding you up.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 05:46 PM

Greg, you're not even attempting to grasp what I'm actually saying about anything...nor do you ever. Your comments make that quite clear. You're just pursuing a personal feud with me, and it isn't worth responding to. (Meaning I just wasted a few more keystrokes that you won't even bother trying to relate to in a reasonably constructive fashion...but what the hey...c'est la vie, non? At least I get some fun out of observing your compulsive attempts to somehow "wound" me.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 05:37 PM

Well Pete...it is true that "i should have thought that the reasoning of any expert should be explored.the majority have been wrong before."

What is different now is that the 'majority' have better & better data than 500 years ago... or 1000...or even 25 or 10. Those who prefer vaguely educated guesses which favor scientific papers or books they have written are having a harder time of it. Bad reasoning based on bad data is much harder to foist off...in most 'hard science' fields.
Now... with all the results in cosmology, particle physics, and with super computers doing modeling with all this new data, they can say certain things about the age of the known Universe, but can still only hypothesize about what came **before**. That may be forever unknowable. However...not being able to 'prove' any one guess does not make any guess just as good...or give anyone the privilege of asserting they have the TRUE answer. We don't 'vote' on such things..because, as YOU just said, "...the majority have been wrong before."

   When someone claims that "God made it all" there is no reason to accept that anymore than a claim that "a god couldn't have made it all."

My view is to shrug and watch what can be discovered....including careful research into the History of Religion...including documents, cultural changes and the needs of Kings to have a way of defending their "divine rights". They almost always DO assert some form of religious doctrine to support hold the job.... and not all the various claims can be right. It is, however, possible for all to be wrong.

What I keep saying when discussing these things with you is that you have a right to your beliefs, just not a right to pick & choose facts about testable scientific data..... and the data shows in more & more detail how the Earth was formed and when...and how Life was inevitable, given certain conditions. We cannot do tests for 'souls' or 'prove' that some ultimate Being hears prayers... but we can't prove the opposite either. One simply decides to accept such things...usually because of personal feelings. I choose NOT to live a strict religious life because I see no way to choose among many contradictions...and I will not choose that way because of fear of Eternal Punishment.
The most awkward thing I do is to be a skeptic and avoid religious beliefs while trying to understand those who do accept them...as long as they do NOT infringe on my daily life. This is not easy... there are too many who wish to "share" their religion by proselytizing and trying to insert religious **beliefs** into laws & textbooks as if such things were 'proven'.


So... I didn't plan to say so much... it just all seems connected. Go back to the top and think about what I said re: the 'majority' and what actually makes some theories 'better'. We just KNOW more now... just as we have better drugs and medicine and communications.

And... I WILL look up 'dino DNA' and see what the current ideas are. You can do the same...but don't rely on only one or two sites that you already agree with.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 05:27 PM

That's right, Hawk - everything is relative. And there's no such thing as objective fact, only opinion. And everything is an illusion.

La vida es sueño, y sueños, sueños son.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 04:47 PM

Who gets to be the final arbitor of what is unhinged and what isn't?

For example, I think the foreign policy of the USA is unhinged, but that's just my opinion. See? I don't get to make the final decision about its relative sanity or good sense, do I?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket not missing a trick
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 04:42 PM

But pete, how can you get out? I told you, the rapture was the other day. My brother in law isn't answering his phone.

I guess you just didn't pray hard enough.




Sorry, but we can all day dream, but why does society expect that we humour unhinged views? Is it not acting irresponsibly to leave people thinking their delusion could be anything more than fantasy? I wouldn't mind but here in The UK we let their leaders sit in our upper house and scrutinise laws affecting real people . It is rather worrying.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 02:18 PM

i should have thought that the reasoning of any expert should be explored.the majority have been wrong before.
i am hoping to get out also.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 12:19 PM

Pete: "however,it seems to me that you are appealing to the fact that the greater number of scientists accept darwinism.

No! No, no, no...that is a point...but not the crux of the point. IF the greater number of experts accept a certain basic position, it indicates one ought to pay attention and explore their reasoning!

More later... have to go out now.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 11:54 AM

There ain't no money in Heaven, Musket. But there is here, and you owe me at least $20 for settin' you straight on that. ;-D

- Chongo

p.s. I prefer Paypal.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket sans soul
Date: 08 Jul 13 - 06:29 AM

Yeah, he obviously missed it.   Bugger.

Better luck next time. My mate reckons the rapture comes along in stages. You'd think God could have afforded a bigger coach.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 06:39 PM

bill- just looked at your link endeavouring to prove the bible is flat earth.the language is that of appearance just like the weather man speaking of the sun rising or setting.no-one except the most pedantic [ or with an agenda] would claim that s/he was scientifically backward.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 06:31 PM

i shall have to concede defeat,bill,as regards the tecnicalities of logical fallacies.
however,it seems to me that you are appealing to the fact that the greater number of scientists accept darwinism.
my point is that if for example,copernicus and galileo had accepted that the greater number of scientists must be correct,we might still have a geocentric cosmology.
you seem to be under the impression that i am afraid to face facts lest my belief in the bible record is destroyed, and as a consequence my faith. firstly,were that the case,i would not be engaging in discussion.secondly my comments were adressing a question from little hawk and in no way expressing insecurity.thirdly,it is facts that i prefer to address rather than broad assertions.
i am still pressing you on the dino DNA and other perishable elements.
for example ,it is my understanding that even given the most favourable conditions DNA could only last a fraction of 65MYO timescale claimed by darwiists.

btw- do you know of any astronomers who claim the moon is made out of green cheese?
or is that a not so subtle argument by ridicule-
i know - probably not tecnically correct
but it sure looks that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 05:39 PM

little hawk - i think you got my reply to you mixed up with my reply to bill.sorry if i was not clear enough on that.
re- your comments on most people just accepting evolution without thinking it through themselves. i wonder too whether because there are so many fields of study involved ,that even some of the more educated in one field believe it because they think others in their fields have proved it.
and as i said previously some that do believe it have admitted that it is not because the evidence demands it- honest souls.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 05:21 PM

jack- back a few days re dino DNA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBDH311UjP
Hope thats right.sorry dot know how to do links.
have to say ,it is not the most dynamic of presentations.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 10:48 AM

It's become a tradition. ;-) It simply has to be Carruthers.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 10:38 AM

Yes...that Carruthers. Heard it 40 years ago....I'm surprised the name has lasted.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 13 - 12:57 AM

Really? Well, he may have favored horses at one time.

Colonel Smithers of the 17th Light Artillery: "I say, Rawlins...I hear that Carruthers has taken up an intimate relationship with one of his cavalry mounts."

Captain Willoughby of the 17 Light Artillery: "The duece, he has! Is it a mare or a stallion?"

Colonel Smithers: "A mare, of course! Nothing queer about Carruthers..."

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 11:29 AM

I thought Carruthers favored horses...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 10:05 AM

As for your brother-in-law...first check and see if he might not have run off with a Chimpanzee. It happens. Carruthers spent three years in a tree house with one, so no one is necessarily immune.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 09:51 AM

It started some time ago. As I mentioned previously, one of my Dachshunds vanished into thin air a few years back, and no trace of him has ever been found.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket sans knowledge of stories
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 03:50 AM

By the way chaps.

The rapture has started.

Just thought I'd mention it.

Tried ringing the brother in law just now and no answer. He must have been called up.

You still here pete?

Oh dear. My commiserations.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jul 13 - 01:01 AM

There isn't a single thing in the Bible that indicates that the world is flat. The Bible is NOT a science text, and was not written with such a purpose in mind, therefore there's no point using it for such a purpose.

All mariners knew the world was round long before Columbus ever sailed. You can see the curvature of the Earth at sea on a relatively calm day, and you can see the masts of a distant ship before you see its hull loom above the horizon, which again indicates the curvature of the Earth. Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians knew the Earth was round. So did sailors and moderately educated people in medieval times, but I don't doubt that some poorly educated landbound people may have thought the Earth was flat...if they ever thought about it at all. They probably did not.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 13 - 05:35 PM

There is an alternate theory that Columbus called the people of the New World "Indios" or children of god because of their peacefulness and kindness. The just the kind of people the Europeans took great delight in murdering, raping and pillaging.

The flat earth had been rejected for centuries by the times of Columbus. The Greeks had long ago proven it was round. If anyone used the bible to claim it was flat, it is only proof that the bible is useless. If you're not already on the right track before you read it, it won't set you on the right track, it will only reinforce whatever it is that you currently believe and since no one can have every right answer then neither can the bible. Case closed on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jul 13 - 05:05 PM

BTW...as to Columbus, I do wish to acknowledge that many in his time did NOT believe in a flat earth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth (very long article tracing most of the beliefs from ancient times up to today)

However, there were many who DID still claim a flat earth, based on literal readings of the Bible.

I'm sure that Columbus was aware of the idea, whether he believed it or not. In any case, it's not crucial to the point I was making about 'common wisdom' and actual fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 13 - 03:59 PM

Hmm! Well, that's a fresh new theory on Columbus, Guest. You might possibly have something there, I suppose. Columbus does seem to have thought he had reached islands in Asian waters, though, probably assuming he'd reached some part of Indonesia or something. He named the people he found "Indians", precisely because he thought he'd reached the spice islands of Asia.

What the Spanish had instead discovered was the gateway to a gigantic new empire that would make them, for a time, the greatest power in the world...until the English took that title from them.

Bill - You said: "I maintain that it IS possible to accept both: 1)the message in the Bible and treat it as guidance rather than a perfect narrative and 2)the studies of science- treating them as the details of *how* God designed the universe to work after Creation."

Right with you there, Bill. It is when people treat the Bible as a perfect literal narrative (as if it were dictation from God) that they go far astray, in my opinion. Rather, it is a collection of spiritual (and some cultural) writings by many different men, men who certainly intended to deliver a valuable spiritual message, but who were also under the influence of competitive political considerations of all kinds, and under the limitations of their own experience, understanding, and prejudices. They had their own axes to grind, and they didn't all agree with each other by any means.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 13 - 02:25 PM

>>The reason Columbus' sailors got scared and almost mutinied was not that they thought they would fall off the edge of the world! It was because they were afraid they would run out of drinking water before they ever reached landfall in Asia...which is where Columbus thought he was going. Columbus was under the impression that the globe was significantly smaller than it is. Some other authorities at the time thought he was wrong about that, and he was, of course. If there had been no American continent and no Caribbean islands for Columbus to run into on his way west to Asia, he would have indeed run out of fresh water supplies less than halfway there, and he and all his men would have died.<<

This is correct. What's odd, though, is that Columbus hit land right down to the very day he said he would before he left Europe. This would indicate the route-to-Asia story was a ruse that Spain was already aware of a vast unknown continent on that side of the world. Rather than spur competition, they developed a ridiculous cover story meant to make informed people sneer so that other countries would not try to get their own expeditions out there to claim this new, unknown land as their own before Spain. The question is, who sailed these secret expeditions, when and using what maps?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jul 13 - 02:20 PM

To turn your own assertion against you: "it is my opinion ,though i cannot prove it,that the acceptance of evolutionism goes with the rejection of the biblical record.this in turn leads to dismissal of the biblical God."

Buried in that, it seems to me, is YOUR worry...that evolution cannot be believed without denying your basic faith. This is true ONLY if your basic faith is in, as I have said, a LITERAL acceptance of biblical chronology, as if God had dictated it directly to scribes. That is itself unprovable! ....indeed we have only old manuscripts that have themselves been selected (and some ignored), translated and interpreted by 'scholars' who either had a vested interest in ONE theory or were just bad tranlators and researchers. (like the flawed experts I just posted about.)

I maintain that it IS possible to accept both: 1)the message in the Bible and treat it as guidance rather than a perfect narrative and 2)the studies of science- treating them as the details of *how* God designed the universe to work after Creation.

Believing as you do demands rejecting obvious data and research because you fear it conflicts with a *belief*...as you just said. At a certain point, I can only shrug and say, "I cannot debate more with you if you cannot see my basic reasoning about what constitutes 'fair' data and evidence."


I cannot help but remember a ltttle quotation from the writings of Nietzsche, seeking to make a point about human reasoning when he imagined an old woman saying: "Of course it was a just war... my son died in it!"

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jul 13 - 01:20 PM

It is difficult to address your points, Pete, without long explanations about the type of errors I find in your basic arguments and the mis-characterizations of MY points.

To illustrate: you say,

"... the main thrust of your argument is appeal to authority and numbers of scientists who are evolutionists."

No... "appeal to authority" is a specific type of fallacy where the status of the 'authority' is in doubt. There is a HUGE difference between claiming *A* is true because one or more people say so, and asserting *A* is probably true because you have looked at the evidence proposed by various authorities who tend to agree on the basic facts and analysis.   
   The point is **not** that I just believe a different set of 'experts' than you, but that there is a difference in the type of data and its relevance that our experts put foreward.
   If one set of 'experts' relies on circular reasoning and un-testable hypotheses, they are not fair authorities, no matter what their 'credentials' are. If man has a degree in Astronomy and states the "the moon is made of green cheese", he is not the sort of authority to appeal to.

"if you think,as you suggest that science did not flourish under a biblical worldview,i ask you to evidence that claim.

Copernicus
...and many other examples..including Giordano Bruno, who was not as clever as Copernicus and didn't shut up when the Church said to.

Science often progressed in spite of a 'biblical worldview', not 'under' it. Most scientists tried to go where the data led... even when church leaders told them they were being heretical.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 13 - 12:29 AM

No, I actually think science has flourished throughout the development of human civilization, though it's been at odds now and then with some religious viewpoints (and within its own ranks as well). In ancient times the very same people studied both science AND religion in many cases, and saw them as a common path toward knowledge, though utilizing different methods of inquiry.

I don't think of the Bible primarily as a record of history...but as a book of mainly symbolic and allegorical writings about spiritual inspiration...with some history included. Therefore, it isn't a question of violating "the Biblical record" to me, because I don't think of it as a record...rather as a form of spiritual guidance.

Yes, my idea of God is vague. The reason for that is because my knowledge is quite limited...so too my experience...and I am not in a position to be able to manage more than a fairly vague understanding of how to define "God"...because God is way larger than any definition I could possibly come up with. I can say all the words I want about it, but they won't begin to express it.

I wasn't wrong about Columbus. People who believed Washington Irving's story were wrong about Columbus! ;-D I may have believed that story once, a long time ago when I was a kid, but I don't really remember at this point.

You're right in what you imply...that most modern people just automatically assume Darwin was right, simply because that's the normal common assumption now in this primarily secular age, and they wouldn't dream of questioning it. They have accepted it on faith, believing what they've been told by others. A few have looked into it seriously, and they have something real to base their opinions on, but such people would comprise, I think, less than 1% of the population.

My own feeling about Darwin's theory is, it's probably partly right...though does not necessarily tell the whole story. But I can't say for sure, because my knowledge of that subject, again, is rather limited...mostly to textbooks and stuff I read on natural history when I was in my youth.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST, pete from seven stars link.
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 07:26 PM

thankyou LH for detailing the facts of myth about columbus.
of course everyone knows[!] that most poeple thought the earth was flat [not] just like everyone knows darwinism is true [not again].
it is my opinion ,though i cannot prove it,that the acceptance of evolutionism goes with the rejection of the biblical record.this in turn leads to dismissal of the biblical God.you speak very resonably but your idea of God,though affirming some sort of deity is somewhat vague.
bill-if i were more able i am sure i could produce a list of quotes where the main thrust of your argument is appeal to authority and numbers of scientists who are evolutionists.
if science had abided under that rule of thumb it would not have advanced.
if you think,as you suggest that science did not flourish under a biblical worldview,i ask you to evidence that claim.
remember you were wrong about columbus .you could be wrong about evolution.
fact is,-i own up to the presupposition that the bible record is true,but evolutionists rarely own up to their worldview being the glasses through which they interprete the data.
howbeit,i have quoted some that have admitted that they accept it,not because the evidence confirms it ,but to avoid a "divine foot in the door"

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 07:06 PM

It's not that I'm making guesses, Bill. It's that I am considering different possible answers, but not insisting on any of them...simply giving them fair consideration. And I may lean toward one or another answer...I may favor one over another...indeed I do...but I don't insist upon it. I merely favor it to a considerable extent.

I favor the notion that it's not all just an accident, and that we sense meaning because meaning has always been there right from the beginning....not just because we arbitrarily made up meaning out of nothing. We do arbitrarily make up a certain amount of stuff, for sure...but not the stuff that actually matters.

I don't suggest that the concept "a Divine Creator" defines meaning. That's just 2 words people might use to describe something they have no idea of how to describe in any kind of complete fashion. We use the word "life" to describe the whole conscious experience of living, but that's just another word, and hardly sufficient to define the experience. It labels the experience. It does not define it. "Divine Creator" likewise is simply a label.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 06:09 PM

Depends on how one defines "Creationism"

And rampant militant relativism raises its ugly head yet one more time...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 05:47 PM

"Either it's full of meaning...or it's not."

Not really... unless you suggest that a "Divine Creator" defines meaning.

In the case of humans, WE supply meaning in as many forms as there are people. Turtles & cats and dachshunds don't contemplate meaning...(though I seem to remember certain folk attributing meaning to dachshund's behavior.)

*I* have feelings about what is meaningful... as does Pete... and a few billion others. Some even superficially agree about some aspects. We don't KNOW what happened before there was 'Being', nor how we got it... and it is not for me to say there was NOT a Creator... it just makes no sense to make guesses....especially when certain guesses begin being applied in controlling ways to everyone's life.

Off to July 4th deeding frenzy

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 04:34 PM

Depends on how one defines "Creationism", Bill. Does one mean a creation that just happened "POOF!" in a magical instant or in a series of 24-hour days? (highly unlikely seems to me) Or does one mean a process of creation that happened gradually through what we would conventionally describe now as natural processes.

If the latter, the debate is not about whether it happened or not, but whether there was a form of consciousness, purpose, and intention actively involved in the process from the beginning...and still involved.

And that is the real crux of debates between people about the existence of God...or of a Divine purpose...or not. Either the Universe as we know it is "accidental" or it's not. Either it's full of meaning...or it's not. If it's not accidental, then that suggests a much deeper meaning to the origins of life than mere happenstance...and resultant survival tactics.

To put it another way, either we make up whatever sense of meaning we have, and that's all there is to it...or it's always been there, and we tune into it because we came from it, and it's natural to us to tune into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 03:51 PM

"...despite my willingness to concede if i dont have an answer."

But Pete.. you always DO have answer. If you don't have a specific answer to a point about science, you resort to the assertion that:

"there are however creationist models that offer solutions."

or "..science progressed very well under a biblical worldview" (it didn't, really)

or "even supposing you are very versed in the specific discipline there are others who interprete the data differently,.."

or "IMO an intelligent creator is much more logical than blind chance"
It ISN'T "blind chance".. it is controlled by laws of physics & causality which we are learning more about every day. In MY honest opinion, I cannot imagine any concept of a 'creator' able to 'make everything'. You are emotionally committed to the idea that it must be so, because we have 'everything'.... more circular reasoning.


Finally, you continually state that there are trained scientists that dispute 'some' of the claims and details of evolutionary theory....while ignoring the fact that 99% of them do not. Some of the trained scientists you refer to begin with the same basic premises that you do, and as such (as I have said before) they are acting as apologists for creationism first and using their scientific training to pick & choose what data or evidence they will accept. If a man brews good beer, and drives a truck to deliver it, you don't necessarily trust that he will drive well & safely. There are specific logical fallacies about that.

Pete... I could post details all day, and you will still go back to one of several ultimate recourses similar to the above...which amount to "I don't agree..."...which translate to : "I CAN'T agree, because I am committed to one form of fundamental Christianity."

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 03:41 PM

Have fun cherishing your delusions, Pete - just don't be surprised when actual sentient beings disagree with you.

He's more to be pitied than censured
He's more to be helped than despised
He's only a poor chap that's wandered
Down life's stormy path ill-advised...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 03:41 PM

pete - How do you feel that the idea of evolution goes against the idea of God or religion? I don't see a conflict there.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 03:37 PM

"BTW who said columbus was told he could sail off the edge of the world?."

The American writer Washington Irving came up with that silly idea in a book he wrote about Columbus in the early 1800s.

Quote from Wicki:

"Irving's writings on Columbus are a mixture of history and fiction, a genre now called romantic history/historical fiction. Irving based them on extensive research in the Spanish archives, but also added imaginative elements aimed at sharpening the story. The first of these works is the source of the durable myth that medieval Europeans believed the Earth was flat."

This was an idea that gained popularity precisely because of Irving's popular writing, but it had no basis in fact. Mariners all over Europe in the medieval period were well aware that the Earth was round, and that same knowledge had been common since classical times when the Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians were also well aware of it.

The reason Columbus' sailors got scared and almost mutinied was not that they thought they would fall off the edge of the world! It was because they were afraid they would run out of drinking water before they ever reached landfall in Asia...which is where Columbus thought he was going. Columbus was under the impression that the globe was significantly smaller than it is. Some other authorities at the time thought he was wrong about that, and he was, of course. If there had been no American continent and no Caribbean islands for Columbus to run into on his way west to Asia, he would have indeed run out of fresh water supplies less than halfway there, and he and all his men would have died.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 04 Jul 13 - 03:19 PM

yes jack DNA has been found in dino bone.i do not have time to find ref right now but will try if i get time later.
bill- 60 myo is a long time to be protected from the elements.i strongly suspect that science would not countenance all that has been preserved against all the odds as credible except that evolutionism has such a grip on the culture.
you seem reluctant to offer specific arguments ,citing inevitable disagreement,despite my willingness to concede if i dont have an answer.i think i have done so in the past.mostly i,m getting atgument from authority as you are still doing with gould.seems to me like a sort of circular reasoning,though probably not technically speaking.
and BTW who said columbus was told he could sail off the edge of the world?.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 09:12 PM

200...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 09:11 PM

Ha! Ha! Ha! Great. ;-D You're right, that's probably all I need to know about Schroedinger's Cat.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 06:05 PM

"I think Schroedinger probably had some point in mind, sort of like those here who talk about the Flying Spaghetti Monster, tinfoil hats, "little green men", and other stuff like that."

That is a pretty good take on it. Here is all you need to know.

Schroedinger's cat!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 05:14 PM

Musket - "A third possibility Little Hawk is that there probably is no God."

Sure. That's a possibility, Musket. I'm pretty sure there is no God anything like the God that many people with a more fundamentalist viewpoint envision...nor do I think God is a separate being who exists apart from any of us. The fundamentalist version of God seems highly unlikely to me. But I can't say for certain. As for other less literal-minded ideas about God, well, there are a great many of those, and we could talk forever and not reach the end of them.

I know nothing about Schroedinger's cat! ;-D But I'm skeptical as a first reaction. I think Schroedinger probably had some point in mind, sort of like those here who talk about the Flying Spaghetti Monster, tinfoil hats, "little green men", and other stuff like that...though he was perhaps being a bit more serious. I don't know.

Musket, there are a simply enormous number of people who DO have a religious or spiritual viewpoint, and who also are quite positive toward the idea or theory of evolution (Darwinian-style or otherwise, such as spiritual evolution, which would go hand in hand WITH biological evolution). Yes, they DO appreciate the evidence science has found in support of Darwin's theory. The 2 ideas (religion and Darwinian evolution) are not inherently opposed, indeed can support each other admirably.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 05:07 PM

Ahh.. forgot your post, Jack..

"I have faith that the morning will come tomorrow. That isn't a religious belief."

No... not a religious belief, at least to most.I...umm.. knew someone once who insinuated that 'God' decided each day whether to give us the Sun. I had very little I could say to that.

I simply advocate not calling it a type of 'faith' in order to differentiate it from opinions which clearly are matters of disputed beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 04:46 PM

pete I don't think viable dino DNA has been found. Has anyone said that it has?

But Mammoth and and Neandertal and other DNA has been found that is well older than the timeline of the Bible. Does that help.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 04:17 PM

"i could do the same with some highly qualified scientists also."

Qualifications vary....

Sorry Pete, but they DO know how 'some' DNA can survive for a very long time.....not much, but in some teeth and bones which have been protected from the elements.

When you put forward 'specifics' from only selected sources, you would require me to do the same to refute them, then you would simply disagree.

"circular reasoning-therefore the theological understanding must be wrong."

That is not what I said... nor have I ever said. I have said that circular reasoning is a poor argument, even IF the conclusion turns out to be true. The goal is to defend data and its application in a non-circular way.
A circular argument is a warning to not trust the conclusion... to be wary.

...and... Stephen J. Gould understood the entire realm of discussion far better than you..OR I. You simply cannot dismiss him as 'cut & dried', because none of his analysis WAS cut & dried. He studied and grew & learned and explored as long as he lived.

People told Columbus he'd fall off the edge of the Earth if he sailed too far West. He said "let's find out." Then HE was wrong about what he actually found (not about the concept,...but the details) , and others had to explore further. So it is with history and evolution and the stars and the Meaning of Life. We may never know the ultimate answer(s), but shrugging and saying "I read this old manuscript, and don't need any more answers." is not how most of us wish to avoid exploring.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 03:54 PM

oh dear!circular reasoning-therefore the theological understanding must be wrong.
i think its called elephant hurling when a lot of generalizations and assertions are thrown about.
you appeal to the late st gould for support asserting that evolutionism is all cut dried.
i could do the same with some highly qualified scientists also.
what would you think of that?...thought so!
what i did was give a specific example-which you dismissed as inadmissable.
there is no dodging it,-soft tissue,DNA,and protein,blood vessels as well ,i think,has been found in dino bones.all of this could not have survived 60 MYO.
AT LEAST SCIENTISTS USED TO SAY SO!.if they have changed their mind,it just indicates that dogma is driving the science.
so with respect bill,i hope you dont do a steve on me and evade specifics .
and you dont need to do an exhaustive search of darwinist proofs.one at a time will do,and if i can,t find an answer i will admit it.
and i will think no less of you if you have to do the same
regards pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket sans Clapton
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 03:48 PM

Evolution is evident.   Even in these threads. For instance, I could argue with pete over that rather than wonder how to reply to unhinged nonsense.

His previous out pourings didn't make such mental leaps.

Praise be!







Still bollocks though.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 03:45 PM

faith
/fāTH/
Noun

    Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
    Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.


Bill, It looks like it is a synonym, sort of

Faith = Complete confidence. In the context of Little Hawks example , I'd judge that he was on the money.
I have faith that the morning will come tomorrow. That isn't a religious belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 03:23 PM

"....if something cannot happen,it probably did,nt.."
that is muskets words .
i say,something cannot come from nothing,via no-one.
therefore evolutionism is a non starter.
except that you have faith that it did happen!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 02:53 PM

"As far as I'm concerned, they are synonyms for what I'm speaking of."

They are 'similar'. Similar is not the same as synonyms.... there are pretty good reasons why we have different terms to discuss different nuances of attitude and concept.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 02:49 PM

You bet, Hawk - everything is the same. There's no difference between any two things or concepts on the face of the earth. Everything is absolutely equal and identical.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 01:45 PM

A third possibility Little Hawk is that there probably is no God.

Or as Heisenberg puts it from a quantum aspect, to observe is to interfere in an indeterminate state.

I reckon Schroedinger's cat has a big white beard and an indeterminate belly button.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 01:36 PM

Yeah, Bill. ;-) I thought you might show up in response.

What I was doing was talking about the actual nature of faith itself. Not just religious faith, but faith, period. Religious faith is one form of it. Faith in political institutions, leaders, national identities, and cultural norms are other forms of it. Faith in various philosophical outlooks on life is/are other forms of it. And so on, ad infinitum...

It is essential that people recognize where they are employing faith...and where they are dealing with certain knowledge of something...and what the difference is.

It isn't faith that tells a scientist that a certain combination of chemicals will result in a specific chemical reaction, and I never asserted that it was. That's knowledge, based upon past experience and observation. It would be faith on the scientist's part to assume that only science can tell him everything worth knowing about life...but that's another matter entirely. He has no confirmation of such a proposition...only an opinion about it, based on his likes and dislikes and familiarities more than anything else...and that's what people's faith is usually based on: likes, dislikes, and familiarities.

You say that "trust" and "confidence" are better terms for what I'm speaking of? As far as I'm concerned, they are synonyms for what I'm speaking of. That's what faith is...it's trust and confidence in an unproven (or perhaps a mistakenly assumed to be proven) proposition, that trust being based on familiarity more than anything else. The more familiar people are with a proposition they happen to already agree with...even in the complete absence of undeniable evidence....the more trust they have in it, and the stronger is their faith.

The proposition may either be a positive one: "There is a God."

Or it may be a negative one: "There is no God."

Either way, it's a faith-based assertion. I grew up in an atheistic family. so my faith-based opinion about it when I was young was most definitely "There is no God." I felt quite sure of it, but not on the basis of evidence. On the basis of automatic assumption...I figured my parents were right.

I later came to a somewhat different conclusion, based on a variety of my own personal experiences and feelings....but I certainly don't think of "God" as...

- a male entity
- a larger humanlike being of some kind
- a separate powerful entity who judges and punishes
- an old patriarch with a beard
- a guy who made the world in 6 days
- a guy who made a whale swallow Jonah and spit him out 3 days later
- a guy whose only official book is the Christian Bible
- a Deity whose only Son is Jesus Christ
- a guy who designated the Children of Israel as his Chosen people

And so on, and so on...

(I do greatly appreciate and try to emulate the ethical and moral principles Jesus is reputed to have given and demonstrated in the writings we have about him...but that's another matter.)

In other words, I don't take a fundamentalist viewpoint. But I do think there's a higher purpose to life, a higher intelligence within everything, and that we are all connected to it in a spiritual and moral sense, and attempting each in our own way to enhance that connection, whether we know it or not. And from that comes our instinctive search for knowledge, beauty, grace, justice, honesty, truth, and love. We use every way we can to get there, including both science and religion.

That's why I don't see them as opposed in any way. They are 2 different paths to the same objective, which is to reach our highest potential. We envision perfection. We reach for it in every way possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 12:31 PM

*sigh* As usual, L.H., you are using a very personal definition of 'faith'. You are not exactly wrong, just 'equivocating'. (You mighta known I'd show up and quibble over that, hmmm?)

It is stretching the language to assert that a chemist has 'faith' that known combinations of chemicals will produce predictable results... or a structural engineer that when stress limits are exceeded, building fall down. Those are various forms of science.

"It is what you have when you don't really know for sure about something...but you think you know for sure about it just because you LIKE being sure about it."

Yes.. faith IS about that...but often, 'confidence' or 'trust' or 'SWAG' (sophisticated wild-ass guess) are better terms....and some people use these in varying formats and situations that THEY would hardly call 'faith'.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 12:01 PM

Everyone uses faith as a compass...and for all kinds of things. The only question is, what do they have faith IN? Hang around them for a bit and you'll find out. You may have faith in the same things they do. If so, you'll agree with them about those things.

Then there's the stuff we actually KNOW by our direct experience, collected evidence, logical deduction, etc. We all have that stuff too, but we don't necessarily always agree about all of it, because we've had different experiences, been exposed to different evidence, trusted different sources, used our abilities of logical deduction toward different conclusions, etc.

Anyway, my main point is that faith is not confined merely to the field of religion. It's something everyone has, absolutely EVERYONE, and it lines up perfectly with their beliefs, opinions, and prejudices about all kinds of stuff. It is what you have when you don't really know for sure about something...but you think you know for sure about it just because you LIKE being sure about it... ;-D The more insecure people are, the more they will resist just admitting that they don't know for sure about whatever it is they normally have faith in. This is just as true of the irreligious as it is of the religious. The ones who aren't afraid to be honest with themselves will freely admit that they don't know for sure about a whole lot of stuff, and they won't be so quick to categorically deny the other possibilities that lie outside their present faith structure.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket shaking his head
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 09:10 AM

Ok. Stating the definition of science is stating my own presuppositions and bias.

This is why I differentiate between using faith as a moral compass and believing fairy stories as fact.

Sorry, but children really should be protected from the likes of you. To inflict growing up with your fantasy and promote it to others, often by legal means...

You really are a danger. The fantasy parts of the bible never happened any more than Maori serpents forming islands or Tolkien's middle earth.... If something cannot happen, it probably didn't.

I like you wish the rapture would happen and for the very same reasons too. I hope you have room for my brother in law whilst you are at it. He shares your literal delusion..

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,SplCr
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 08:57 AM

oops. Me above.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 08:55 AM

"the box like biblical ark is of a size and dimensions for optimal stability in the worst of seas..."

pete, do you work for the Shopping Channel?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 08:00 AM

Why would anyone need a liver or a heart in heaven?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 08:35 PM

"Creationist scientist" is an oxymoron of the first degree.

You mean science fakirs and bullshit artists, don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 07:15 PM

Oh my, Pete... "he is not obligated to prove himself to those who dont want to believe."

My attitude, as you may have gathered, is that I don't like the IDEA of a capricious god who gave me a mind capable of comprehension and reason, yet expects me to blindly believe 'what I am told' by others regarding creation, an 'afterlife' and morality.

I have written before about circular reasoning and statements which contain their conclusions within their statement. "He is not obligated.." IS an assertion which assumes there is a "He" who exists and expects our belief.
That is what is at issue! "You must believe in order to believe" is not a comfortable feeling for most people.

"former supposed proofs of dawinism are collecting in the evolutionary dustbin."... exceeded a hundred times by carefully researched and documented evidence which DOES support the basic positions of 'Darwinism'...which itself is not a simple theory to be explained in a few paragraphs.

Those "former supposed proofs" have been extensively explored by Stephen Jay Gould in several books ...along with detailed clarifications of why some notions were flawed and why other ideas were correct, but incomplete.
I cannot possibly type fast enough to show you the fabric of Gould's overwhelming understanding of the complex history of research into evolution and the related biology, archeology, paleontology...etc. Men used to make wild guesses about details & causality based on instinctive notions that Darwin had some good ideas...some of those guesses have indeed been consigned to the dustbin, but replaced by BETTER theory as new evidence is collected. AT NO TIME is the core evidence close to being discarded... except by those who assume it MUST be wrong if it doesn't agree with some archaic scripture.

"...there is so much evidence from dino bones collecting that supports a much younger age than the 65 MYO evolutionists claim."

It seems some have a very different idea of how to define 'evidence'. I could do a search and find more evidence than you could read in a lifetime... you seem to get most of your assertions from creation.com and a couple of similar sites....and THEY make their claims based on out-of-context quibbling about interpretations of doubtful data.
Anyone who wants to refute basic scientific research needs to refute it BASED on science....

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 03:59 PM

all you are doing musket,is stating your own presuppositions and bias.unless you cite anything specific,it is only so much unsupported assertion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 02:16 PM

Creationist scientists are ignoring their own lack of existence for starters. To claim to be creationist is to carry out your research with a hypothesis that is flawed and has been for 150 years, and no advancement in knowledge has led to supporting creationism. Funny that.

The dartboard analogy is therefore spot on with regard to falsifying evidence and other, I use the term with delicious irony, heretic activities with regard to science.

Belief isn't bad, isn't wrong and so long as you don't stuff it down people's throats, isnt evil either.

But it does not and cannot influence reality, and the understanding of reality. Or science to give it its Sunday name.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 01:26 PM

bill,i asked if you would clarify a few things relating to your previous post.i think you vaguely addressed one
if you follow the science where it leads ,so beit if schooltext books need revising.they do already ,i suspect.hackle fraudulent embryo drawings are still in some ,i hear.
and of course science is changing all the time.former supposed proofs of dawinism are collecting in the evolutionary dustbin.
i reckon your dartboard analogy is way off centre.
i ask again.what discoveries are creationist scientists ignoring?.
it seems to me that evolutionists are ignoring the evidence.there is so much evidence from dino bones collecting that supports a much younger age than the 65 MYO evolutionists claim.
and that is not the only argument from science creationists use.even a brief survey of the thousands of articles reveal that a wide range of disciplines are represented.
your charge that there are numerous religious ideas, hardly means that one of them can not be true.
and your denial of God revealing himself is only based,it seems on your unbelief,rather than logical argument.
why should he not do so?
of course,though,he is not obligated to prove himself to those who dont want to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 06:40 PM

I had a black & tan Dachshund who lived in constant fear of the Rapture. He would gaze skyward nervously whenever outdoors, checking for large raptors. One night when he was very elderly he went out and never came back...just vanished into thin air. Several days of searching yielded nothing, and I'm never seen him since, so for all I know he may be cavorting at this very moment in the Elysian Fields, being fed chocolates and fresh sausages by doting admirers. I hope so. He was, after all, a very nice dog...although he worried way too much about things. His little velvety brow was always furrowed with care.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket sans arrows
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 06:21 PM

Love the dartboard analogy.   

Excellent

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 01:04 PM

Ta, Greg. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 12:51 PM

Guestus:

Not at all what I said, pal. On the other hand, if you can't understand a straightforward communication, you probably have a life rich with opportunities for antagonism, not so? It could be attributable to your own predilections and filters, rather than the ill-intent of all those around you.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 12:46 PM

Hmm. Still beating the dead horse around and around the Mulberry Bush, I see...

Hmmm - still posting your inane, nugatory & childish BS, I see, Hawk....

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 12:42 PM

""it is said both ways..in case you didn't know that..check bottom of page However, the most said response is with 'Spirituo'""

Once again you expose your ignorance in takng one comment from a distinctly non authoritative source and your arrogance and laziness in assuming that no further inquiry is necessary, as you know it all.

Try this: Google "et cum spiritu tuo" and see how many hits it brings up including the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Then google "et cum spiritu tuum" and see all the same hits exactly, all for "tuo". I went through five pages out of the ten without once seeing tuum mentioned.

It would appear that only that one source of yours uses it, so who is more likely to be right, him or the rest of the world?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 12:37 PM

Well Pete...brief explanation:

It is not the matter of general "Christianity" being accepted, because of course, it is. I know many people who are believers in many different branches... from Catholics to Episcopalians to Mormons to Quakers. I do not know personally in my circle of friend or acquaintances, anyone who takes quite such a literal view as you... and the group you say 'educated' you.

To repeat part of my last post:
"The reason so many...even myself... dispute your stance is that your current 'belief' refuses to treat new discoveries in science as useful unless you can make them fit your interpretation of one scripture among many."

It is one thing to make your basic belief that there must be some sort of Creative Force, and that there is some sort of Eternal Spiritual Principle 'out there' ...somehow. It is quite another to be sure that the details of *IT* and its opinions are clearly, accurately and universally quoted, clarified and binding on all mankind!

It is also a common thing to accept 'some' historical truth to the collection of texts called "the Bible". After all, known historical figures are mentioned. We know when King Herod lived. So... it 'may' be that there were actual historical persons behind the stories of Moses, Noah...and yes, Jesus. There are few records except the Bible to compare notes on.

My difficulty with your group's message is with a limited view of scientific data and refusal to deal with the discoveries OF science if they 'seem' to disagree with biblical dating and references.
We have gone thru this several times in a couple of years. IF the precise view you hold were held by everyone...or even "widely held", it would

1)seriously restrict science from making its discoveries coherent.
and
2)would cause enormous changes in how school textbooks were written and affect the very language of logic and the law.
(it would take hours to give detailed explanations of this)

You say you wish to "share" your faith. In practice, many who hold your view wish to 'establish' it and embed it in the very laws and fabric of society. I think that much of this attitude comes from Matthew 4:19..."And He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men."
It sort of exhorts believers to "testify & convert" others... no matter what they believed...or did not believe before.
In my view, any 'god' who wished his 'word' to be known to all men would not have entrusted the details to a few folk like Moses & Jesus over 2000 years ago.

Let me put it a bit stronger: to those who have a different 'belief'(Muslims, Buddhists, Quakers, Jains, etc...).. or NO belief, it is more or less and insult to be told that they 'should' give up their way of thinking. As I have mentioned before, I have had both Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses knock on my door and try to 'explain' to me why their details were better... and their details don't agree with each other!

Once more: An open mind requires one to follow data and reasoning wherever they lead, and NOT reject knowledge that fails to conform to one interpretation of one translation of one collection of writings from one area.

Does the seven stars pub have a dart board? In darts, the object is to try to make certain scores using various tactics. What would you think if someone just placed darts on a blank wall, then drew a target around them? That is a metaphor for what those in your narrow belief system seem to be doing.

I really do not wish for my science, my morals and my logic to have to conform to such a system.... and MOST belief systems, even in basic Christianity, agree with me.

   There IS room to retain a basic belief in a god, a creator and a moral character without limiting one's views so drastically.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Jul 13 - 11:19 AM

Explanation:
The responsorial phrase is:
Dominus vobiscum (God be with you)
et cum spiritu tuum (and also with you).
It's said at mass.

it is said both ways..in case you didn't know that..check bottom of page However, the most said response is with 'Spirituo'

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 06:31 PM

Sorry Greg F. -- it's from the Latin Mass

Whatever- same fairytale BS.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 06:25 PM

""I keep reading the title of this thread as "Is the Rapture Underwear".""

I had a different response Rap.

An irresistible urge to ask "What is it supposed to weigh?"

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 06:23 PM

""et cum spiritu tuum""

If you're going to pretend you are clever, it pays to check your quotations first.

Et cum spiritu tuo.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 06:19 PM

Hmm. Still beating the dead horse around and around the Mulberry Bush, I see...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 05:54 PM

Raparee, Dominus vobiscum! ...Don't you just love talking to people with adamant opinions about stuff they don't have the foggiest idea of what they are talking about!!???
Boy, I could give you a list of them, on here...but instead, "et cum spiritu tuum"

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 03:24 PM

Sorry Greg F. -- it's from the Latin Mass (Tridentine Mass) Confiteor:

"Confíteor Deo omnipoténti, beátæ Maríæ semper Vírgini, beáto Michaéli Archángelo, beáto Joanni Baptístæ, sanctis Apóstolis Petro et Paulo, ómnibus Sanctis, et tibi, Pater: quia peccávi nimis cogitatióne, verbo et ópere: mea culpa, mea culpa, mea máxima culpa. Ideo precor beátam Maríam semper Vírginem, beátum Michaélem Archángelum, beátum Joánnem Baptístam, sanctos Apóstolos Petrum et Paulum, omnes Sanctos, et vobis, fratres (et te, Pater), oráre pro me ad Dóminum Deum nostrum."

The prayer was probably composed sometime in the 8th Century and added to the Mass in the 11th. The above is from the 1962 "Roman Missal."

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket treating himself for Goofus
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 02:48 PM

Diversity... See pickled quail eggs above.


pete. You have a dig at the likes of me and say "your idea of God." Please for once get this in your skull. Some of us have no idea of God because the concept is not relevant.

Your mistake,which gets many reasonable people angry with you, is refusing to accept that the god concept itself is not shared by many, as there is little logic and no evidence to support it, and as there are so many flavours of God, it makes the whole concept laughable.

If it floats your boat fine, but my mate who thinks the moon landings didn't happen knows to keep it "up there" to avoid people laughing at him. I am not threatened by his stance. Civilisation however is still threatened by the enforced credibility of superstition. Which is different to just believing.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 01:04 PM

some of you, danced all around it..and then proceeded to 're-define' what I said...so let's do it again, and see if the 'brainiacs' can distinguish between what I posted, and some CONCEPT of crap what you THOUGHT I meant, based on you misconceptions!

From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 04:36 AM

Nope nope nope.....That's dumb...this is not a matter or organizing thoughts into some sort of concept, or even thinking of it as 'a religion'....you can't reach the spiritual through constructing a concept of 'righteousness' self, or other wise.....this is different...it hits YOU...on ITS terms..has nothing to do with if you approve or not...different rules, properties and 'physics'. When it happens, you KNOW it...nobody 'talks you into it'..it's actually, too personal to be named!............Just when it happens, pay attention...if it doesn't, try not to hate those who have had it.
Called 'diversity'??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 12:57 PM

Sorry, Rap - mea culpa (that's biblical)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 12:40 PM

>>Getting all stirred up because someone wants to push beliefs at you makes you a very poor candidate for Western civ., which generally requires a free and open exchange of beliefs and the ability wo see through and deflect coercion without undue stress.<<

In other words, shut up and take it. Fuck you asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 12:27 PM

6,600. Not 6,000.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 12:25 PM

Hey, people start universally believing nonsense like the earth is 6000 years old, that's the antithesis of intelligence.

Your call.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 12:20 PM

".....end of intelligent......."
i expect a more intelligent response from bill,to whom my post was directed.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 12:12 PM

I keep reading the title of this thread as "Is the Rapture Underwear". I would like it change to "Goning On" instead of "Underway."

Mods please note.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 11:54 AM

what dangers do you see if biblical christianity were widely accepted

BIBLICAL christianity[sic]?

The end of intelligent life on the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 11:53 AM

SOrry you are stuck in such an old and tired war, Guestus. I think the ancient doctrine about Caesar and God applies, but it needs to be updated. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's; render unto God what is God's; and label BS clearly. Getting all stirred up because someone wants to push beliefs at you makes you a very poor candidate for Western civ., which generally requires a free and open exchange of beliefs and the ability wo see through and deflect coercion without undue stress.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 11:48 AM

well bill- if a muslim wanted to discuss with me why he thought his religion was superiour i would be quite happy to talk things out with him. and just to be clear,in light of some peoples suggestions,i would not think that he was in league with militant extremists.
you seem to be representing other faiths by proxy,while subscibing to none other than atheism.yet despite this you chide me for not believing in YOUR idea of God!.this does not seem a very reasonable position.
i am in no position to discuss the merits of other faiths, although as i believe in the bible and that does indicate the falseness of all other gods,i will not grant other faiths the same validity.that being said ,christian faith should not be enforced on others.and respect should be shown between diverse persuasions.
there are some other points i would ask you to clarify.
1/which scientific discoveries am i and other creationists avoiding.
2/when did we think the earth was flat[other than a few flat earthers]
3/i understood that most cosmology does now see earth as near the centre of the universe [but am open to correction]?
4/what dangers do you see if biblical christianity were widely accepted. i have heard that when revival hit wales over a century ago they did have one problem - the pit ponys did not obey immediately due to the absense of swearing at them!.i hear the crime rate was drastically reduced so the police had less to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 10:07 AM

There was a time when I tried to live and let live. But the Christians--you give them an inch and they just HAVE to take a mile. There was a time when I thought the militant atheists were arrogant and spouting off too much. But I was wrong. And I have HAD IT! This is war now. This is war.

And spare me your bullshit about all the great Christian, Islamic and Jewish mystics and progressives. They are nothing more than the fertile field from which the next round of fanatics will sprout. I'm sure there are neo-Nazis and KKK people who decry violence but that doesn't change who and what they fundamentally are. Among their children, sooner or later, will arise the next crop of fanatics saying their parents were too lax, too open to change, not Christian/Islamic/Jewish enough. Fanatical rightwing conservatism is kept alive in this country by Christianity--period. If you are part of that cult then you are part of that problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket sans Ian
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 05:58 AM

My dear Goofus.

Pickled quail eggs represent all the diversity we ever need.

This side of the pond any road.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 04:36 AM

Nope nope nope.....That's dumb...this is not a matter or organizing thoughts into some sort of concept, or even thinking of it as 'a religion'....you can't reach the spiritual through constructing a concept of 'righteousness' self, or other wise.....this is different...it hits YOU...on ITS terms..has nothing to do if you approve or not...different rules, properties and 'physics'. When it happens, you KNOW it...nobody 'talks you into it'..it's actually, too personal to be named!............Just when it happens, pay attention...if it doesn't, try not to hate those who have had it.
Called 'diversity'??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket sans knowledge of stories
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 04:15 AM

On a practical note, how will Christians get there and where precisely is "there."

Our knowledge of the universe to date puts the observable world out of the running and alternative realities might be as good or bad as this one, although if they exist I assume quite a few don't fuck with people's heads like our phenomenon called religion.

Have they organised buses? Airbus A380 fleets? Getting Scotty to beam them up?

What about people who live good lives, help others and try to be the good guys but are too intelligent to believe in fairy stories? Do they get a ride?




Perhaps not. More beer and pickled eggs for the rest of us. Hey, did you know? This holiday is in a town so posh they genuinely sell pickled quail eggs. All the philosophy you ever need in that fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 03:57 AM

...and then there are those, who get a major "Hello!" in the form of an unseen club on your head..if, or when that happens...PAY FUCKING ATTENTION!

Why not?...You'd be a complete moronic oxygen thief not to!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 01:53 AM

Many Christians do NOT think of the greater part of the Bible as history, aside from some stuff about various military campaigns and kings of the Israelites and some specific incidents in Jesus' life...they they of it primarily as allegory, as spiritual parables, with the purpose being to clarify spiritual concepts such as forgiveness, redemption, kindness, brotherhood, honesty, etc. There are also many Christians who do not believe by any means that every single world in the Bible is the literal word of God, but that it's a collection of varied ancient writings with considerable spiritual significance, written by a very large variety of people, some of whom got most of what they said right, some of whom got part of what they said right, some of whom got part of what they said wrong, some of whom were caught up in contemporary political stuff that badly twisted what they said.

There are a vast number of different viewpoints on this among Christians, but this is overlooked by people who would prefer Christians to all just be literal fundamentalists, just because that makes them easier to denigrate and ridicule if you happen to want to denigrate and ridicule them.

This variety of differing viewpoints is also true of Muslims. They're not all literal-minded fundamentalists either. There are genuine progressives and mystics in both religions who do not believe the fundamentalist stuff that the anti-religionists are so fond of deriding.

It's easier, if you already have a deep and abiding prejudice, to just insist that everyone you're prejudiced against shares a simple set of easy-to-attack absurdities...but in doing so, all you're doing is some very lazy thinking and wish-fulfillment...kind of like Hitler did, for example, with regard to Jews....or like the Inquisition did with regard to the wretched and innocent people they accused of witchcraft. You're engaging in a modern witchhunt of your own choosing, not any kind of fair attempt to understand a viewpoint other than your own.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 01:33 AM

I think the Rapture may actually be underway as a covert operationII Those who believe are secretly being slipped up to Jesus but their mortal shells are being left behind, operating on a low autonomic and reactive level, a mindless zombie simulacrum of a human being. This really explains to me why so many politicians who do and say really stupid and thoughtless things are showing up, especially on the right. They are not the real occupants! They're just leftovers!! Zombie shells!! The entire STate of Texas is half depleted of human souls, all of whom have been Elevated as a reward for their constancy in Faith, leaving behind barely operational portals of pure idiocy, bereft of spirit or living attention.

This is the FIRST explanation I have heard that makes any sense at all, and it even explains Rick Perry!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 01:15 AM

...and 'Guest' feels so strongly about it, that he doesn't post a name.

GfS

P.S. Joe, is that you?..(not Offer)..let me know.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 11:54 PM

The only difference between Christianity and Islam is the latter uses suicide bombers and the former bomb abortion clinics but unfortunately don't blow themselves up with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 10:07 PM

"...but hopefully you would not lump my lovingly seeking to share my faith together with suicide bombers ..."

Pete... it is not about how nice & pretty YOUR faith is, compared to THEIR faith. It is about the sound basis on which anyone accepts ANY scriptural guide as authoritative. That is why it is called faith/belief. If God (and Muslims claim they worship the same 'god' as Christians, but have different prophets/messiahs) is 'all-powerful' and wants a specific truth to be clear to everyone, I would think he/she/it could clarify it to ALL, and end this doubt and guessing and killing!
Granting humans the mind to understand & analyze, yet allowing pain & suffering & discord & confusion does not fit MY idea of an omnipotent Being.

We have a lot of historical evidence as to why humans created religious stories to explain their wonder about Being... and when we thought the Earth was flat & was the center of the universe because we had no FACTS, it was understandable so many different religions developed so many different stories....including guesses about what would happen "at the end". The 'rapture' is just one guess among many. The reason so many...even myself... dispute your stance is that your current 'belief' refuses to treat new discoveries in science as useful unless you can make them fit your interpretation of one scripture among many.
   Some treat you as if you are 'having me on' and 'taking the piss' (not phrases I use in the US...but I get the point.) I have no doubt you are honest & serious... but I also see many problems with the system that thinks like that.... and I really worry about what would happen IF your system gained wide acceptance. Sorry...but that's how it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 09:18 PM

That grown people would actually believe in fairy tales and put down others for not doing so is not only incredibly arrogant but the height of stupidity. The bible is not a history, it is a book of fairy tales. It doesn't read like a history, it is not verifiable as a history. It reads like a bunch of fairy tales and is verifiable as a bunch of fairy tales.

And personally, I think the Brothers Grimm kick the bible's sorry ass. As do the Arabian Nights.

Get ready, everybody, Rapunzel is going to let down her golden locks any day now and THEN you'll be sorry!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 07:13 PM

Pete is misinterpreting scripture, which is clearly describing the mass abduction of earthlings by superior beings from another planet/glaxy.

Bound to happen sooner or later.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Janie
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 06:49 PM

I dunno. I think Garrison Keller reported on the rapture back in 2004, so that proves it it has already happened and just us poor saps are left behind. It was tough, deciding whether to become an Episcopalian or a Unitarian. Appears I made the wrong choice.
Click on "listen" when you get to the link.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Ian Mather
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 06:33 PM

Here is my vulgar attack.

You are round the bend, and saying Christianity has a moral high ground over Islam, you are deluded at the subjective as well as the objective end of the market. Suicide bombers are not a feature of faith, they are an example of how faith can be manipulated. Dangerous thing faith, it can even have you believing the most amazing bollocks...

Musket thinks you are too, if it helps.

The good professor reserves judgement, but he was born in kennels in Ireland so faith is as inbred as his breed, as it were....

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 04:09 PM

gfs- i did say that i was not dogmatic as to the details and you make some good points.at one time i would have agreed with your posited timeline/order of events.under the pre-trib view,those enduring unto the end would be those that became believers after the rapture.it is not hard to imagine that many will put 2 and 2 together when they cant find most of their christian friends and family.
but as i say i am not dogmatic on this as admittedly the teaching is spread over a number of texts.

bill-i suppose i would say that islamist suicide bombers are deluded.
atheists might say i am deluded,but hopefully you would not lump my lovingly seeking to share my faith together with suicide bombers killing themselves and others in the hope of a bevy of beauties awaiting them in paradise.
regards both    pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 04:08 PM

No point in trying to have an intelligent discussion with a supernaturalist.

Now, a musical interlude from Stevie Wonder...

When you believe in things
You don't understand
Then you suffer.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 03:46 PM

Any body that posts with complete anononimity,and feels the need for vulgar attacks on others belief hardly warrents an answer so the following is in respect of those posting after.
as already noted,there are stories of a worldwide flood - worldwide!.
often there are similarities to the biblical version.
as also suggested,they could all be fabricated tales based on a more local disaster.
alternately ,there could be an original true account from which corrupted versions spread out.
you probably guessed that i posit genesis as the original.i believe the bible is Gods word and trustworthy,but realize that others will need much more to even consider that.
i suggest that in comparison of ancient texts,genesis comes out on top.for example,the babylonian describes a sqaure box where-as the box like biblical ark is of a size and dimensions for optimal stability in the worst of seas.
a careful reading reveals disembarkment after the waters had abated .this was confirmed by the first bird returning with a leaf and the 2nd not returning.
this is in line with more recent observation of devastated landscapes recovering faster than would have been thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket typing randomly
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 03:21 PM

Oh, forgot to mention. If anyone wants their cat looking after them when they go up (no self respecting God would forgive a moggy) I can arrange to look after it for a large sum.

Send your cat to the good professor at the usual address.

Also, if anyone wishes to have their greyhound exercised alongside the good professor, we expect a delivery of exercise equipment soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 02:55 PM

Actually, the story of a flood appears almost in EVERY ancient culture around the world...even the Mayans...but who wants to labor it?
Sounds like another wannabe political activist, having their knickers in a twist with no talcum powder...such a big deal, over a little chafing, huh?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket sans being saved
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 02:32 PM

I might just cut and paste this whole thread into the atheist belief thread and rest my case... Not that I would of course, some think I like the attention and yeah, you're right.

My only contribution can be that whenever I see the word rapture, it reminds me of Spike Milligan ;

Deep in my guts I have a rupture
But for that dear,
I'd have upped yer.

In the meantime, I love pete's logic. He doesn't have pride because that is a sin and as he thinks he is going to be saved in the rapture, he isn't proud of his salvation.

But he feels superior to the rest of us. If he didn't, he wouldn't think he is going to be saved.

Then I am berated in other threads for not respecting the views of those professing the silly end of faith?

Beer.

Now.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 12:49 PM

Ho hum. There were people like you around 20,000 years ago too, and all they thought about was busting heads.

People can survive just about anything. We're very tenacious creatures.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 12:46 PM

Anybody who has lived through ravaging hurricane can tell you how horrible it smells afterwards from all the death. A world-wide flood would simply be unsurviveable FOR ANYONE. No bullshit story about an ark that some Jewish asshole writer stole from the Greeks who stole it from the Babylonians who stole from who knows where changes anything. It's a bullshit story from a bullshit book compiled by a bullshit religion. And the Rupture? Get real, more bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 12:13 PM

Bill D: "sort of wonder, Pete, how you view the strong **belief** of Muslim suicide bombers that by doing damage to the infidels, they will go immediately to 'Paradise'."

..and then the get 72 virgins, too..but 72 really isn't that much, considering that it's got to last them for 'all eternity'...and who knows, they might be 72 old spinsters....or even even the wrong sex..or very ugly. Methinks somebody, who ever came up with that one, wasn't thinking it through very well. Plus, those who blow themselves up...there might not be much left to 'enjoy' the 72 old biddies!

Aw..the delusion of it all!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 12:01 PM

So this is what Bill Maher lies awake at night worrying about? ;-)

It's probably a very ancient legend, one that predates both the Jewish and the Christian religions, and it probably refers to some actual natural disaster which affected many people at least over a wide region, if not over the whole planet. In such a case some people would have prepared for it and managed to survive it. In doing so, they would certainly try to save some useful animals and plants...we would do the same now if we were expecting a planetary catastrophe to occur...our governments and scientists would attempt to save as much of our present ecosystem and culture as they could.

If very few people survived a disaster, then there'd be a long, slow period of recovery and repopulation afterward, and people would tell stories about what had happened. The stories would get embellished, and at the same time simpler, and then they would turn into legends and morality tales in order to make a point.

Thousands or tens of thousands of years later some dork on a talk show would bring up inane questions about insects fucking, and think himself quite clever.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 11:36 AM

Bill Maher asked the other night if his guest knew how Noah got all of the thousands of species of insects in pairs and kept them fucking regularly without drastically increasing their numbers.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 11:28 AM

Well, they were told that by some authority figure whom they trusted. That's what usually starts all these problems. People don't think for themselves, but let someone else do it for them. The whole purpose of military training, for example, is to make people stop thinking for themselves and just dutifully obey orders...and you can easily see what horrors that has led to, time and again.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 11:24 AM

I sort of wonder, Pete, how you view the strong **belief** of Muslim suicide bombers that by doing damage to the infidels, they will go immediately to 'Paradise'. It is obviously easy for people in various cultures to come to 'interesting' conclusions if they carelessly interpret the basic tenets of their religion.

(no time to properly start that other thread yet.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 11:00 AM

frogprince: "I suspect that if Dispensationalism hadn't been popularized by the notes in the Schofield Bible, Mary Margaret MacDonald and Darby would be largely forgotten, and Dispensationalists would be very rare or have totally faded away."

True.

Pete: "the word "rapture" is not in the bible..."

True.

Pete, I suggest you take a GOOD look at the 1 Corinthians 15:52 verse, that you are referring to..and see how it ends.....when the event is supposed to occur...it says, '...at the LAST trump'..now go to revelations and read EVERYTHING that happens BEFORE the LAST trump.

The 'post trib' guys don't have it 'right' either....there is NO post trib Rapture....what is being described in 1 Corinthians 15:52, is a Resurrection...as it describes.
The pre-trib rapture people, falsely believe that Jesus is going to come back and save their skins....no so...Read Matt 24:13..and also Mark 13:13...which you can already see in here.
Besides, it's NOT about 'saving our skins' as much as incarnating the soul, that has the Spirit in it.
That happens to be FAR more accurate to the texts.

Regards,

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: frogprince
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 07:26 PM

"the word "rapture" is not in the bible but the teaching is."

The closest thing in the Bible to the contemporary concept of the rapture is the picture of Christians being caught up to meet Jesus in the air as he is coming down at his return. The rest of the Dispensationalist calendar is put together by picking odds and ends of Bible quotes which in contest refer to an assortment of things, and arranging them on a structure constructed totally independently from the Bible. Put of any the verses used to support the doctrince back into context, and they lose all relevance to the alleged rapture-tribulation-final return sequence of the "left behind" scenerio.

I suspect that if Dispensationalism hadn't been popularized by the notes in the Schofield Bible, Mary Margaret MacDonald and Darby would be largely forgotten, and Dispensationalists would be very rare or have totally faded away.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 07:21 PM

Most of the principled resisting have gotten killed too, Jack, throughout history. To hold to principle in the face of corrupt social hierarchies is an extremely hazardous business. If you turn the other cheek, they'll usually kill you. If you strike them on their cheek, they'll usually kill you. The vital thing is to hold to principle, however, and to risk the consequences regardless.

Also, not all the people who followed Jesus' advice got killed, but certainly a great many of them did, just as happens with freedom fighters of any variety.

The most probable meaning of "to turn the other cheek" in the context it was given (as a parable) is: to return positive thinking in the face of negative thinking, forgiveness in the face of unforgiveness, tolerance in the face of intolerance, kindness in the face of cruelty, reason in the face of unreason. To thereby reverse the intentional energy wave rather than copying and amplifying it with the same negative reaction.

Do this in a water tank with actual waves, send a reverse wave of similar amplitude at an oncomng wave and you'll see what will happen. The 2 waves will cancel each other out, and the water will go calm and smooth. That's what Jesus was advising for human relations on a spiritual level, I think, and it does work far better than simply amplifying the first wave by imitating it...which is what people commonly tend to do. Someone "hits" them...they "hit" back...the situation gets worse.

Obviously, this does not apply to an absolutely necessary physical fight...and there are cases where it is necessary in defense...but it does apply to human relations in the sense of one's intention and attitude toward others.

Jesus was not counseling people on how to engage in physical fights when he spoke that parable. He was counselling them on how to handle their inner intentions, consciousness, and attitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Jack Sprocket
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 06:47 PM

Come on Pete, the Rapture has already happened and you lost out.

Jesus said, turn the other cheek.

Those who followed his advice were killed- that's what happens to the principled non- resisting. They are martyrs, and will dwell in Paradise forever. That IS the rapture. And it didn't happen to you, you are always looking for evil in the others and not in yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 06:02 PM

the word "rapture" is not in the bible but the teaching is.
it is most prominent in pauls writings,but i think alluded to elsewhere.
i believe that i shall be "caught up" but that is not a case of pride,as someone earlier suggested.christian teaching rather is that it is only by the undeserved favour of God that repentant sinners are saved.pride,is more likely the condition of unrepentant and rebellious people who think they dont need the forgiveness of God.
as to not knowing the timing of the second coming- assuming the rapture occurs before the great tribulation [the view i favour,without being dogmatic],it is true that the first part of that coming is of unknown date,whereas for those left behind may be expecting the second part in appx 7 yrs.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 01:19 PM

It could explain the disappearance of one of our Dachshunds...he was a rather saintly dog, as dogs go.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 11:58 AM

Just re-read the whole thread... those were fine days!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 11:27 AM

This thread would be a lot more interesting if were "Is the Rapture Underwear?", which is how I first read the title.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 11:25 AM

Good skeet shooting! Can't wait!

How about alligators? Did Noah take alligators? And frogs? How about sea snakes?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 10:28 AM

There's never been any indication whatsoever by anyone that Noah took fish onto the Ark... ;-) Or whales either, for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 08:54 AM

A reporter taken up in the Rapture? No way.......

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Jun 13 - 07:13 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1ILGp3JGCQ

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 12:20 PM

"...and the fishes will laugh..."

Which reminds me. Did Noah take fish on the Ark, and if so, why?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: the one
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 10:35 AM

and the rocks on the sand will proudly stand thee hour that the ship comes in.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 10:29 AM

Thought that was Omar

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,neovo
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 08:23 AM

"I mean, fir gosh sakes, he was a tax collector, right???"

Wrong - St Paul was a tent maker.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: the one
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 07:50 AM

AND THE SEAGULLS WILL BE A SMILING.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mooh
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:15 AM

There better be blues and folk too, or I ain't gettin' on the bus.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 09:10 PM

If I do happen to get raptured, can I go hunting and fishing when I get there? Will there, contrary to the song, be some good beer and some good Chicago-style hot dogs?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mooh
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 06:44 PM

No fish and no dogs?! Count me out!

(I tried to interest Rosie and Cosmo in this thread but they're busy chasing flies.)

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 08:49 AM

The fish aren't going? What about dogs? I'm not sure I want to go if dogs don't get to go. Oh, wait, I'm not at all sure I'm going anyway. Nevermind.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: the one
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 03:46 AM

and the fish will laugh as they swim out of the path.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 11:17 AM

Yeah. Somebody said, "Give to Caesar the stuff that's Caesar's and God the stuff that's God's." I couldn't have said it better my own self.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 11:02 PM

Look, this is ridiculous.

ALL humans are secular in their basic operations.

And ALL humans are different and "unusual" in their non-secular orientations.

THAT's why the Constitution was wisely framed to provide for means of management on the secular side only, and means of tolerance on the NON-secular side.

It was obvious to them from hard experience that people go LOOPY on the subject.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 08:36 PM

As Mr. Spock used to say when he observed yet another example of human folly,

"Fascinating!"

The article is by Michelle Goldberg, the author of the cautionary book, Kingdom Coming : The Rise of Christian Nationalism.

(Why do I feel nervous?)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Hollowfox
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 08:07 PM

Hi, Foggers, and welcome to the party. (Don't apologize for the old jokes, though; say rather that you're quoting the classics.*g*)
As to the question at hand, I've always thought that if you're doing the best you can, then the all-knowing God will understand just why you did what you did (or didn't), and will manifest as an all-forgiving diety as well.
If it turns out that I was wrong about this, well, Mark Twain was reputed to say,"Heaven for climate, Hell for society."

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 03:32 PM

Make it skid-proof, won't you? Your slogan can be "Ya never know!" or "Remember what Mom said!" LOL


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 03:23 PM

Now I keep reading this as "Is the Rapture Underwear???"

Hmmm...I have a marketing idea....

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 02:19 PM

sad, Jenny...both for your family, and that ANY group can so distort rationality and make themselves and others miserable with ignorance and superstition.

Is uncle still at it? That bunch in California a few years ago who "went behind the comet" at least 'went'...and the world IS better off.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: JennyO
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:23 PM

One of the nastiest and most judgmental and treacherous human beings I ever met - my uncle, was always a fire and brimstone kinda fundamentalist "Christian" - my family was full of them. Many years after I had last seen him, there appeared an article in the newspaper about a sect which believed they were all going to heaven on the 29th August of whatever year it was - complete with a picture of one of their spokesmen - Uncle Doug!

Actually, their headquarters were right near where I lived, and you often saw their vehicles driving around with banners all over them, proclaiming their version of the Rapture. Apparently they believed their whole bodies and all their possessions were going too, because they had their suitcases packed and ready. Unfortunately it didn't happen - a shame, because the world would have been better off without people like him.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:07 PM

*looked up the word in my digital thesaurus WordWeb ...it allows either spelling..jibe or gibe...

one meaning is:
"Be compatible, similar or consistent; coincide in their characteristics"

and the one Ebbie mentioned is there also, but I have rarely heard that.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: foggers
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:57 PM

Cheers Amos - was guided to Mudcat by my mate mandotim and have been reading and lurking around for a few months now, so I thought it was time to stick me head above the parapet and actually say something!

Thanks for the advice & the welcome; I do fall for making meself into troll food now and then.....but will be alert (because Britain needs lerts......sorry, old joke)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:55 PM

Well said, foggers. Yes, out political leaders and their plans for war are far more dangerous than a sudden visit by Jesus. Matter of fact, I would be delighted to meet Jesus anytime, and would not fear his judgement in the least. It's the judgement of nasty-minded people that I fear.

Two of the brightest and most gifted young women I have ever known in my life grew up as Jehovah's Witnesses...and I always wondered how the heck they could go on believing all that stuff.

Well, one of them rejected it by the time she hit her mid or late 20's, so she saw through the conditioning of her youth. The other is still very young...perhaps 24 at the most. She's a remarkable girl. If she doesn't also see through it at some point, I will be very surprised.

It boggles my mind that a body of teachings as humane and forgiving as those put forth by Jesus could be twisted into such fear-mongering insanity as is embraced by fundamentalist churches...but it all depends on how people interpret things or who they listen to, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:48 PM

Foggers,

Well said. Welcome to the 'Cat; enjoy the zoo, don't feed the trolls and never be afraid to say how things really seem to you; add a pinch of humour for easy digestion and all will be well!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: foggers
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:45 PM

Wow what an interesting thread! - I am a newbie and this is my first posting so be kind....

I am a former "fundie" and as such can speak from the experience of being scared witless as a teenaged lass by all the preaching about a secret Rapture and the need to conduct my life in spotless purity in case I was caught "in sin" at that vital moment when Jesus came back. Faith based on fear seems to be a feature of most types of fundamentalism - fear of judgement, fear of rejection, fear of retribution.

When I left that particular faith at the age of 23, (and was also going throug divorce traumas) one of my abiding memories is that the person who was most loving and supportive was my GAY landord, as opposed to folks from my old church who tracked me down and told me I was going to Hell, especially when they realised the kind of "sinful" life I had chosen*.

The impending war with Iran seems to be driven by Bush's need for the fundies votes, and here in GB we have toothy Tony who is more a high church type Christian, so his public pronouncements on Iran seem to be waivering between lukewarm support for GWB to more caution. But when the excrement hits the rotating air-conditioning he will be Bush'e lapdog again I am sure.

And that is far more scary than any heretical secret "Rapture".

foggers

PS * for a full run-down of my complete range of sins send SAE to...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:32 PM

My dachshund has let slip one choice bit of information. There are no barbecued sausages in heaven. Now I know why he came back.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:02 PM

'Gibe', innit? (for the hurtful remark)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 11:52 AM

Ooo, quite right. Jibe means both to match up, and to cross the wind stern-first, when sailing. It also means a hurtful remark.

Jive means slanging, hep-talk, or BS, inter alia.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pedant
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 10:44 AM

" that just doesn't seem to jive with what we find"

The word is JIBE! Really and truly it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 10:46 PM

Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine.....

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 09:35 PM

Well, as a follower of Christ, I find Paul to have his own agenda that just doesn't seem to jive with what we find in the stories of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John... Paul is like a cop... He is judgemental... He has way too many rules... I mean, fir gosh sakes, he was a tax collector, right???

Yeah, I ain't gonna get all exicted over some Rapture thing that I don't believe in 'cause of some misconstued passage from Revelations...

I believe in a loving God who ain't into throwin' in the towel...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 09:17 PM

Hey dick, shhh, don't give it away man, they might change their minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 09:10 PM

Jes' thinking...If the Rapture occurred, and the True Believers were all whisked off to heaven, leaving the rest behind...........might that not represent a considerable improvement in the quality of life for those Left Behind?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: 282RA
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 11:37 AM

Saying Jesus would not have agreed with Paul is problematic being that Paul had no interest in a historical Jesus. He was interested in the Christ of his vision. Paul does not appear to know anything about a historical Jesus or he does not care.

There was historical school and it appears Paul might have been at war with them (Gal. 1:6-9 and 3:1-3).

It appears the Church simply incorporated two entirely different strands--the historical Jesus and the mythical Christ--and put their writings into one book while revisioners over the decades and centuries revised and smoothed the gaps as they saw fit (often leaving bigger gaps than the ones they tried to fix).

Paul's rapture scenario is also problematic in that he never wrote it again in any other of his epistles.

As for the thorn in his flesh, there is good evidence that it may have been homosexuality.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 11:30 AM

Wherever it came from it's a reeeedickldockle concept, IMNSHO

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 11:16 AM

The "Rapture" is basically an idea concocted by the Scottish Calvinist, John Darby who misinterpreted Revelations in the Bible to support his thesis.

It's being used as a political tool by the Radical Right to foster their authoritarian ambitions for the world.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 10:49 PM

Paul influenced Peter and, eventually, all of Christianity. James, on the other hand, was (as far as it's possible to tell now), the actual leader following the death of Jesus of Nazareth. Paul never met Jesus of Nazareth, and he wrote that. What he taught seems to have been what he, Paul, felt Jesus taught -- and Paul got that second hand, from people like Mark who HAD met Jesus.

But the Gospel of Mark was apparently based upon the "Q" Gospel, which has been lost. Matthew based his upon Mark and Q, Luke upon Matthew, Mark, Q, and interviews, and the Gospel of John has been said by many biblical scholars to be concocted from the mind of the writer. The Gospel of Thomas, on the other hand, is getting more and more scholarly approval -- and is the Gospel of Mary of Magdala.

Stay tuned for the next exciting episode....

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 06:47 PM

Yes Don and I have a great respect for you and your views on many things...as you already know.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 06:09 PM

I've studied it very thoroughly, Mike. And you will note that I don't ridicule. I do, however, take to task those Christians who speak and act in a manner that Jesus would never have condoned.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 05:55 PM

O.K I know I have come in for a lot of flack because of my Christian views but Christianity is still alive after 2000+ years, why is that? Why do 'Born again' Christians claim they have a relationship with the living Christ? A lot of people on this thread have tried to ridicule Christian beliefs but how many have actually made a study of the philosophy and theology behind it all? How many have actually tried to attain that relationship for themselves? Very few.
It drastically changed my life but then...you have to choose for yourself..you have the freewill to choose. All I can suggest is that you choose wisely...and the only way to do that is to learn by your own and others experience ....Christianity is part of that for me...not for you..fine that's your choice.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 05:40 PM

I've met people like Paul, and I don't like them very much. Someone like Jesus, on the other hand, I would be delighted to deal with any time.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: jacqui.c
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 05:09 PM

I think that Paul was one of the first 'born agains' - in my experience always the hardest liners no matter whether it's religion, non smokers, whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 05:04 PM

Possibly the thorn in his side was the body itself.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 04:43 PM

Paul was the cranky one, with lots of hard-nosed ideas. Apparently he didn't smile much. A huge amount of what a lot of people consider to be "Christian" came, not from Jesus, but from Paul. A pastor I know once commented that "A lot of people who consider themselves Christian are actually 'Paulists.'"

Paul said a lot of stuff about things that Jesus never talked about and that Jesus probably never would have said.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 02:59 PM

Paul was a truly odd duck, no doubt about it. I don't care much for his viewpoint on a number of things.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: gnu
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 02:55 PM

Thanks for the insight, 2. Never really thought of it that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 02:22 PM

Interesting point, 2. Paul said a lot of weird stuff that I don't think Jesus would have agreed with.

It never is revealed what the "thorn" in Paul's flesh is. There has been a lot of speculation about this among theologians, and several theories advanced, one of which is that Paul was epileptic. Among other things, this could account for his encounter on the road to Damascus.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: 282RA
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 12:28 PM

>>The Rapture is when Jesus returns and takes all the fundies (HIS fundies) away to heaven, and shuts the door and won't let us in.<<

I think that works more in my favor than theirs. I'll stay right here, thanks. Fundies, don't let the doot hit you and all that rot. Have fun in heaven, never mind us back here. Forget you ever heard of us. Just rub your hands in glee at all the suffering we must be going through because we didn't listen to you.

The Rapture supposedly came from John Darby. Maybe he copped it from the hallucinating Scottish woman. Fundies often link it to Revelation but it is not there. It is in Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Paul seems to be describing something like an acid trip. He may have been describing his "vision" or series of such visions. Some think he might be describing an epileptic seizure which often has religious connotations for the afflicted. Again, yeah, maybe.

It's so strangely worded and so strange to begin with, no one could know what Paul was saying and it doesn't appear he was describing as he himself wished. Heavy acid trips do that. Trying to tell people what you experienced doesn't really capture it. Paul struck me as being quite perplexed about that. So how can anyone claim to be a follower of this passage? It doesn't lend itself to any kind of perception that but the most abstract.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 10:41 AM

You don't sound nice, but I am glad you are practicing.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 06:57 PM

Why no, you haven't. I'm just practicing being nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 06:39 PM

Rapture, Schmapture! I've met a fair number of fundies, and all I can say is that if it's only the fundies who are going to be in Heaven, I'd just as soon stay behind and dice it out here, thanks!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 06:22 PM

Perhaps, Amos, but not sorry enough! Don't let him off easy, Rapaire. Make him crawl... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 04:17 PM

I have upset you, haven't I, Rapaire? I am sorry.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 03:39 PM

That's very nice for you, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 03:04 PM

This is such a crock of weirdness I cannot begin to describe the crockness of it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: frogprince
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 02:31 PM

Does the expression "suck up" have something to do with this?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:56 PM

Alba - all you ever wanted to know about Up Pompeii

From memory her name was Senna.

I've written an Ode about it...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:43 PM

Don't they all.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:28 PM

I questioned my dog at some length, in case he had been Raptured and then rejected and sent back.

"What's it like in Heaven?" I asked him.

He belched, gave me an engimatic look, and refused to comment further.

My feeling is, he knows more than he's telling.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 10:56 AM

To give a serious answer to your question, MMario: (Now if someone who is "saved" has a heart tranplant from a sinner - does the heart get left behind? Or is someone who is 'saved' had a liver donated and that liver is currently in a sinner - does the liver get assumed into heaven?)I have it on good authority that each transplanted part from and to each tranplantee(r) will instantly zip around and plunk itself into the original entity. Kind of like musical chairs, except it should come out even.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 10:36 AM

" It may come as a surprise to many Christians, but the doctrine of the Rapture is not mentioned in any Christian writings, of which we have knowledge, until after the year 1830 A.D. Whether the early writers were Greek or Latin, Armenian or Coptic, Syrian or Ethiopian, English or German, orthodox or heretic, no one mentioned a syllable about it. Of course, those who feel the origin of the teaching is in the Bible would say that it only ceased being taught (for some unknown reason) at the close of the apostolic age only to reappear in 1830 A.D. But if the doctrine were so clearly stated in Scripture, it seems incredible that no one should have referred to it before the 19th century. This does not necessarily show that the teaching is wrong, but it does mean that thousands of eminent scholars who lived over a span of seventeen centuries (including some of the most astute of the "Christian Fathers" and those of the Reformation and post-Reformation periods) must be considered as prophetic dunces for not having understood so fundamental a teaching. "

More at:
Associates for Scriptural Knowledge
http://askelm.com/doctrine/d760201.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Alba
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:51 AM

Now Rapaire the Big Dig isn't underway....it's completed. ta-da
Only thing is it is seems to be getting underway again as rumour has it they built the whole thing with Lego, upholstery pins and Mechano bits and it ain't holding up!

A little aside:
Do any of the Brit Mudcatters remember Frankie Howard and his TV Comedy series in the 70s called 'Up Pompeii'?.
Seems to me a few expressions from that show that could apply to the either come and gone or still to come Rap-ture!

This line from Howard's character Lurcio sums up those who are amused by the possiblity that SOME (quite a few it would seem) will be left behind.... "titter ye not missus!"

A few of the Characters I recall from the series: (Just for giggles at the names)
Ludicrus Sextus
Ammonia
Bilius
Voluptua
Prosperus Maximus
Scrubba
Erotica
Nausius
Odius
Villanus
There was one female Character who did a lot of "Woe is me"-ing on the Show. Anyone remember her name?

No offers of a free "Estate by the Sea" as yet...but I can wait, unlike the Rapturites that will be leaving us soon. Remember you can't take it with you...:)
Best Wishes,
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:12 AM

"Underway"?? Like Boston's "Big Dig"?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: kendall
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:08 AM

Bumper sticker   "JESUS IS COMING, AND IS HE PISSED"

A friend of mine says Logic and reason are religions worst enemy

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 03:15 AM

Transplants- well that's a sore point for J.Hoover's Witnesses. if they are saved I don't want to be. Brave attempt to stop that horse Sorcha.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Sorcha
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:02 AM

Woe! Oh Woe is me!!! See Isaiah for the Woe stuff......

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 11:57 PM

Gargoyle is missing from the postings he has traditionaly been the most rightous mudcat defender of The Faith and may have been taken up with the 144,000. The Rapture appears to of occured. Woe be to those left behind.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Scoville
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 04:32 PM

Ragnarok. Definitely Ragnarok.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: gnu
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 04:22 PM

It is here. I got fillies on the barbie, lobster and beer on ice, and a bunch of my rowdy friends coming over tonight for tunes. Didn't invite Jesus, though.

Don't get me wrong. I like Jesus. It's just that he let's all these assholes tag along with him. Bunch a wanna be holier than thous. I asked just the other day, "Jesus Christ! What's with all these fucking assholes who walk with you?" He said to me, "They have fish for the barbie, wine for the cooler, and lots of bread for the plate. So, let it be. Nudge nudge, wink wink." He speaks words of wisdom. I think he learned from his mother.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: jeffp
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 04:11 PM

I am sorely tempted to start a copycat thread entitled, "Is the Rupture Underway???" But I won't.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 04:03 PM

False alarm. The little bastard is back. He was robbing someone's garbage, by the looks of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 04:00 PM

A link borrowed from Don Firth on those who promote Armageddon in the hopes of Rapture. This is gruesome distortion of what it means to be human, in my view.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 03:50 PM

Bill D:

GO TO YOUR ROOM!!! ROFLMAO!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 03:01 PM

The link posted by Les From Hull has a fascinating history on the roots of Christian fundamentalism in the West. I have no idea how accurate it is but it offers a plausible, well-spoken account.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 03:01 PM

"One of my dachshunds seems to have vanished"

check to see if wandering cowboys have been seen in the area...they are always being admonished to "get a long little doggie".

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 02:52 PM

One of my dachshunds seems to have vanished! Could this be the Rapture? If so, it shakes my faith, because he is a noticeably sinful little creature with many vices. Why would he be taken? What could it mean? Have the Fundamentalists got it all wrong? Is Christian prophecy going to the dogs?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: MMario
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 02:43 PM

well according to some versions the 'saved' - including all who have died, are *BODILY* assumed into heaven.

Now if someone who is "saved" has a heart tranplant from a sinner - does the heart get left behind?

Or is someone who is 'saved' had a liver donated and that liver is currently in a sinner - does the liver get assumed into heaven?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 02:43 PM

Plastic Jesus, plastic Jesus.....

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Becca72
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 02:32 PM

Yeah...who knows how long he's been back there with the dust bunnies!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 02:27 PM

ROF here! Becca, did you dust him off?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 02:14 PM

"What happens, in this day of organ transplants - if, for instance, the donor is 'saved' but the recipient is not? or Vice versa? MMario"

I know there is a phrase to the effect of saving one's rear end,MM, but I don't think the Rapture refers to one's physical parts. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 02:07 PM

Jesus will bring us all trusses!

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Les from Hull
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 01:50 PM

rapture history

Yes - you're always best off getting your theology from teenagers! Margaret MacDonald also identified the Antichrist - it was of course Scottish social reformer Robert Owen.

As far as the Bible (Revelations of St John the Devine) is concerned there's only room in heaven for 144,000 people, and they're all Jewish.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Becca72
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 01:38 PM

I found Jesus...













he was behind the couch the whole time!!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: MMario
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 01:23 PM

I got a question. What happens, in this day of organ transplants - if, for instance, the donor is 'saved' but the recipient is not? or Vice versa?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Barry Finn
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 01:20 PM

You mean things could get worst? And just as it was getting better, sigh.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 12:48 PM

Whm. Miller tried this schtick in the 1840's.

Twice.

Didn't work for him either.

Get the brother, above, into therapy, quick. There might be some hope for him...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 12:41 PM

I certainly hope they will. I'd be happy if WalMart was taken too.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 12:37 PM

Will those who perform "Rap" songs be taken? If so, I'll stay here....(as if there was any doubt I'd be left here)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 12:33 PM

"Rapture" comes from the same root as "Rapaire."

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 12:31 PM

Thousands of field mice experience the rapture every day...courtesy of various hawks, owls, etc. None have come back to tell us what it's like.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 12:24 PM

If he's convinced he's going to be called up wouldn't that be considered a sin of pride? I've always wanted to run into a "rapturite" so I could ask them that question.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 12:15 PM

My brother is convinced the rapture is soon coming and he's going up. He also keeps warning me about being on a plane at that time because the pilot could get snatched away.

He also sounds pretty convinced you aren't!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Richard H
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 12:10 PM

My brother is convinced the rapture is soon coming and he's going up. He also keeps warning me about being on a plane at that time because the pilot could get snatched away.

It might be a good idea to make sure your pilot is an unsaved sinner before boarding. (If you peek in the cockpit and he has his hand up the stewardess' thigh, you're good to go.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 12:03 PM

Only...there's quite a bit of disagreement if the Rapture is coming before, during, or after the Last Times. If before, cool, all the good folks will be assumed up bodily and all the baddies will go through the bad times. If during...well, the goodies will endure only some of the bad stuff. But then, the Rapture might come after the shit hits the fans (so to speak) and the good and the bad will have gone through the same thing.

Most rapturists I've met assume the first, pre-Bad Times, scenario. Of course, all of them conveniently forget Mark 13:31-33, where it is clearly stated:

31Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 32No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: harpmolly
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 11:59 AM

Jesus is coming. Look busy.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: mack/misophist
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 11:54 AM

Just took a gander up at the sky from the front porch. Nothing there but a helicopter. I'm keeping my stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: jacqui.c
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 11:29 AM

There should be quite a nice little place on Penn Avenue going spare as well.... It's got a nice rose garden!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:57 AM

Would a lake be alright ? Does it have to be by the sea ? Because I'm guessing the good Lord will be calling up Bill Gates and I understand he has a nice place up in Washington state.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:57 AM

Man what a buncha deluded nabobs. It's downright scary.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: skipy
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:56 AM

MM, you are implying that there is good haggis!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Alba
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:51 AM

No worries there Amos ma dear..LOL
Heck if they are giving it away...why not an Estate by the Sea... *giggle!*

Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:49 AM

Jude:

Hold out for at least four bedrooms, I'm comin' witchoo.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Alba
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:45 AM

Could have been MMario..lol

Aye it indeed was a Scot's Woman and it is said that the power of the Holy Spirit visited one, Miss Margaret Macdonald while she was dangerously sick and thought to be dying. It is said that she is supposed to have come under "power" of the Holy Spirit for several successive hours during which she experienced the manifestations of mingled prophecy and vision. The message she received during this prophetic vision convinced her that Christ was going to appear in two stages at His second coming -- and not one! The visions revealed that Christ would first come in glory to them that look for Him and then come again in a final stage when every eye would see Him. These Events would be what has come to be called "The Rapture"

Bad Haggis...possibly...(is there good Haggis..:)

Still I am taking no chances. Cottage by the Sea for me...any givers:)
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:43 AM

And what make you think the Rapture hasn't already happened and the Chosen haven't already been taken into Heaven?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: MMario
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:34 AM

probably a piece of bad haggis.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:30 AM

Bobert - You might ask your friend to look up the rapture in the bible. She won't be able to find it because it was never mentioned. The rapture was thought up by a woman in Scotland back in the 1800's who had a vision. According to her at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: bobad
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:30 AM

I don't know Bobert, but when the rapture comes can I have your stuff?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Alba
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:29 AM

If it is the Rapture that is underway then the chosen have no need for material possesions like Houses, Cars and things....so could one of the chosen please sign over their Cottage by the Sea to me before they go?
Ta muchly.
Pm with details, map, directions ect.
Jude:)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:27 AM

The Rapture is when Jesus returns and takes all the fundies (HIS fundies) away to heaven, and shuts the door and won't let us in. As if we'd want to go to that heaven.

He who loves his love o'er well
Will gaze in Helen's eyes in Hell,
But he whose love is dry and wise
Shall see John Knox in Paradise.

We still get left with Moslem, Jewish, Hindu etc. fundies, but we also get to keep all the rappers, Rapaire, rapscallions, rapper dancers, risberry rapple, rapport, Rap vin Wankle, Rapunzel and so on. So it's largely the same as before, except for a few puzzled fundies who weren't among the Elect after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mooh
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:19 AM

Sounds more like a rupture. The Burning Bush League sure is convinced of itself.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:13 AM

Well, well, well...

I was listenin' to NPR a little while ago and they were talkin' about how many fundamentalist Christains are just lovin' this world war that their hero, George Bush, has crafted 'cuase it will bring a second comin' of Jesus Christ who will, in turn, take all believers to Heaven and leave the heathens to fight it out here on earth...

Yup, that's seems to be the condensed version of the story...

So to all my fellow followers of Christ, be sure to be ready for the call-up...

(But, Bobert, if God loves us why would he send Jesus to collect, i.e. kill, all the Christains???...)

Ummmmm, don't ask me... I gotta a friemd who says she belives in this rapture thing and so I asked her to explain it to me and she couldn't... But she said she would get me some books to read about it... Great...

But I can't wait on the books since Jesus might be here today to collect all his followers so can anyone explain to me how this thing works???

Bobert