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BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?

GUEST,Old Guy 03 Aug 06 - 08:07 PM
GUEST 03 Aug 06 - 08:15 PM
Leadfingers 03 Aug 06 - 08:16 PM
Peace 03 Aug 06 - 08:17 PM
Amos 03 Aug 06 - 08:28 PM
Rabbi-Sol 03 Aug 06 - 08:36 PM
Peace 03 Aug 06 - 08:37 PM
Lady Hillary 03 Aug 06 - 08:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Aug 06 - 08:46 PM
Jeri 03 Aug 06 - 08:54 PM
Peace 03 Aug 06 - 09:01 PM
robomatic 03 Aug 06 - 09:05 PM
Little Hawk 03 Aug 06 - 09:27 PM
C. Ham 03 Aug 06 - 09:48 PM
Little Hawk 03 Aug 06 - 09:58 PM
Peace 03 Aug 06 - 10:06 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 03 Aug 06 - 10:10 PM
Little Hawk 03 Aug 06 - 10:22 PM
Peace 03 Aug 06 - 10:22 PM
Jack the Sailor 03 Aug 06 - 10:41 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 03 Aug 06 - 10:43 PM
Bill D 03 Aug 06 - 10:47 PM
Little Hawk 03 Aug 06 - 10:52 PM
Little Hawk 03 Aug 06 - 10:55 PM
Joe Offer 03 Aug 06 - 11:10 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 03 Aug 06 - 11:18 PM
Little Hawk 04 Aug 06 - 12:01 AM
GUEST,Old Guy 04 Aug 06 - 12:03 AM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 06 - 12:10 AM
Little Hawk 04 Aug 06 - 12:13 AM
GUEST,Old Guy 04 Aug 06 - 12:19 AM
Little Hawk 04 Aug 06 - 12:23 AM
Little Hawk 04 Aug 06 - 12:32 AM
GUEST,Old Guy 04 Aug 06 - 12:45 AM
Little Hawk 04 Aug 06 - 01:30 AM
John O'L 04 Aug 06 - 01:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 06 - 05:00 AM
freda underhill 04 Aug 06 - 05:17 AM
The Villan 04 Aug 06 - 05:20 AM
freda underhill 04 Aug 06 - 05:26 AM
GUEST,hugo 04 Aug 06 - 05:27 AM
Paul Burke 04 Aug 06 - 05:28 AM
Paul from Hull 04 Aug 06 - 06:40 AM
beardedbruce 04 Aug 06 - 07:15 AM
Suffet 04 Aug 06 - 07:22 AM
C. Ham 04 Aug 06 - 08:20 AM
GUEST,Old Guy 04 Aug 06 - 08:45 AM
C. Ham 04 Aug 06 - 08:54 AM
GUEST,Old Guy 04 Aug 06 - 09:28 AM
Bill D 04 Aug 06 - 09:39 AM

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Subject: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:07 PM

I have been trying to figure out how the Hebrews and Muslims have become so at each others throats.

The religions seem close and they must have been one religion at one time. How did they get so far apart?

I am not making any claims here but i just don't have enough the background on the two religions. After I sort that Out the next question will be who was the first to occupy the land that both lay claim to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:15 PM

Well...with the religions so close...they both come from the same regions...why wouldn''t they be close?

As for the Arabs...they worshipped pagan gods prior to mohammed becoming a prophet...


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:16 PM

Mohammed recognised Abraham as a prophet !(And Jesus , as a matter of fact)


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:17 PM

It's like this: The chicken and the egg had sex. When they'd done, the chicken said, "Well, I guess we've answered THAT question."


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:28 PM

I don't think the Arabs and the Jews were so mutually antagonistic prior to WW I and the dissolution of the Palestinian protectorate.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:36 PM

Abraham had 2 sons, Issac & Ishmael. The Jewish view as espoused in the Torah is that God promised Abraham that the descendants of Issac would inherit the land. The Arabs claim that it was the descendants of Ishmael to whom the land was promised.

                                                 SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:37 PM

And thus was born the great American novel, "Moby Dick."


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Lady Hillary
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:38 PM

The Palestine question goes back about 3500 years. Abraham left the Tigris-Euphrates valley and settled in what is now known as the lower Middle East, north of Egypt and South of Persia. The then residents were known as Philistines or, as now pronounced, Palestinians. They've been fighting over the land ever since.

As far as when they started fighting in the Modern Era, there were various pogroms prior to the first world war, as often as the Ottomans permitted it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:46 PM

Basically European anti-semitism, culminating in the Holocaust, forced many European Jews to look for another place to live in, away from anti-semitic Europeans; and this in practice involved displacing the people who already lived there. One result was that European anti-semitism got exported to places where for thousands of years Jews and Arabs had got along pretty well, especially compared to what happened in Europe.

Antagonism between Jews and Arabs has the same basic origin as antagonism between settlers in the American West and the native Americans. The fact that Jews and Arabs are very closely related peoples (in many cases essentially identical), and that their religious beiefs and practices are also very closely related, is one of the things that makes this historic tragedy so poignant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:54 PM

There's quite a bit in Wikpedia about Abraham and his sons Isaac and Ishmael.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:01 PM

Geeze, all we're missing is a little good ol' End Times ambience.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:05 PM

This is either a really personal question, or a pretty obvious troll. I'm gonna take a cue from the South Park episode where the little handicapped kid went and joined the "Crips" and sit this one out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:27 PM

The interesting thing, Old Guy, is that both Christians and Muslims revere the same ancient holy books (Old and New Testament) and the same prophets and holy figures. Jesus is greatly revered as a true prophet of God by Muslims and so are the other figures in the Christian pantheon....but then along comes Mohammed and adds new teachings and new books...so Islam is a later offshoot of the Christian and Jewish traditions. Where Islam mainly differs is that it adds on the teachings of Mohammed and makes him the foremost prophet, although Jesus and the others are still quite important figures in the religion. The Jews differ in that they don't recognize Jesus, the New Testament, OR Mohammed, but only the stuff that came before Jesus...so it appears to me that there could be a greater religious gulf between Jews and Christians than between Muslims and Christians, technically speaking.

This, however, does not prevent all 3 of them from fighting wars with each other over religion. ;-)

Ridiculous, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: C. Ham
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:48 PM

I have been trying to figure out how the Hebrews and Muslims have become so at each others throats.

The religions seem close and they must have been one religion at one time. How did they get so far apart?


First off, the question in your thread name is very different than the question you raised in your initial post.

Of the three great monotheistic religions, Judaism came first, about 4000 years ago. Then came Christianity, a little less than 2000 years ago. Then Islam, about 1300 years ago.

Biblical legend has it that the patriarch Abraham, had two sons. One by Sarah, his wife, and one by Hagar, Sarah's handmaiden. Sarah's son, Isaac, was the second Jewish patriarch. Legend has it that the Arabs were descended from Hagar's son, Ishmael.

Concerning the area now known as Israel and the Palestinian territories, the first Jews arrived there about 4000 years ago. The first Arabs arrived there from the Arabian Peninsula, as conquerors btw, about 600-700 years after Christ.

Someone above inferred that the modern day Palestinians were the same people as the ancient Philistines. That is not true. The Palestinians are Arabs; as are the modern day Egyptians, who are not the same people as the ancient Egyptians of the Pharaohs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:58 PM

Okay. So...where are the descendants of the ancient Philistines now, and where are the descendants of the ancient Egyptians? What became of them all? (not arguing with you, just asking)

Wouldn't it be funny if the Chinese eventually move in and settle the whole area? (well, not all that funny.....)


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:06 PM

"where are the descendants of the ancient Philistines now"

In Philadelphia fer krissake. Where else?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:10 PM

"Islam is a later offshoot of the Christian and Jewish traditions"

I was thinking that Islam came before Jesus.

It is certainly ridiculous. The jews were definately there during the Jesus era so how can the Arabs claim it?

Isreal's problem is that there are so many more Arabs than Jews. And the Arabs have the power of oil money.

I read The Source by Michener that explains a lot the background but I have forgotten almost all of it. I remember it was a hell of a book though, better that his later books.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:22 PM

No, Islam came about 500 or 600 years after Jesus.

Claim on land is very simple. It works this way: If you were born there and have lived there all your life, you just naturally feel that it is your land. If new people arrive from somewhere else entirely and say it's their land now, you don't like it! ;-)

If you'll recall, this is exactly what caused trouble between the whites and the Native American tribes, and it is essentially what has been causing trouble between the Jews and Arabs in the Middle East since 1948.

Of course in the meantime you have Jews who HAVE been born in Israel since 1948, so they just naturally do feel that it's their land. And so, the disagreement becomes chronic, and it goes on for generations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:22 PM

Lots depends on who controls the media.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:41 PM

They Speak Arabic from Morocco to Iraq. Just as they speak from English from Vancouver to Miami. Native Americans speak English, Italian Americans speak English, Even C. Ham, who apparently lives in Toronto, speaks English. Does that mean they or their families all come from England? Of course not.

There is every reason to believe that the many of the current residents of Palestine are descended from the original inhabitants and their anscestors learned Arabic as the were converted to Islam. It is even likely that some are descended from Jews who converted.

The Palestinians are reportedly more closely related to the Jews than any other people. So if the Jews can claim that land by birthright, so can they. And then, of course, there is the inconvenience of the Palestinians having been there when the descendants of the Jews of Europe and America decided to return.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:43 PM

The media does whtever it takes to make money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:47 PM

You can describe the basic history of the region anthropologically, or you can describe it from a religious/cultural perspective. In the 1st instance, you find that very similar people moved about there for 4000-5000 years, and that almost every area had some of the various clans, tribes and ethnic groups there in various patterns when the total population was low.

In the 2nd instance, usually written from a viewpoint with a vested interest, you find this notion of "God promised us WE were the chosen ones!" Now you have similar but differently slanted versions relying on only vaguely historical figures quoting 'scripture' about a supposed supernatural being 'deeding' real estate to 'favored' groups based on ambiguous virtues & behavior! Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

No one seems to have any idea why, if this 'promising' actually happened, it was not made clearer and why a Supreme Being capable of such favoritism (no matter in which direction) could not also pop in when things got nasty and RE-explain it clearly. Obviously, the 'interested parties' will continue to point to 'history' that supports THEIR vision, and in the direction of lands with the most personal significance for them....Oh, there's considerable overlap in the claims? My...maybe they should share! Nope...somebody stepped on SOMEbody's toes a few thousand years ago, (or so it says in various ambiguous texts!) so the descendants will fight about it forever, seeing as how God does not seem inclined to do his smiteing personally anymore, but contracts it out to Mullahs and Rabbis and their loyal followers.

.................need I go on? EVERYONE has a semi-valid claim, and everyone denies the other guy's. Sure makes money for munitions suppliers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:52 PM

Got that right, Old Guy! ;-) That's what they do.

See, I always thought that claiming land on the basis of your race, religion, past history, or culture was ridiculous. It's being BORN on a piece of land and growing up there which makes you feel in your gut that it's your home and always will be, wherever else you travel. I know that, because I was born in Canada, more specifically Ontario, Canada, and it will forever be my natural home...makes no damn difference where my ancestors came from. You don't have to have "Indian" blood to call North America your home. Not any more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:55 PM

If anyone thinks that God made his people the "chosen ones" and set aside some land only for them, he has only a primary school level understanding of God, and his "God" is the monster of his or someone else's imagination. (in my opinion)


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 11:10 PM

The Jews and the Moslem Arabs both have legitimate claims to the land called Palestine, and the land is legitimately sacred to them and to Christians. Judaism is older than Christianity, which is older than Islam - but Arabs have been Arabs far longer than the history of Islam. Apparently, it was Philistines who were displaced by the ancient Israelites - but were those Philistines ancestors of the current Arab Palestinians?

And just because somebody lived somewhere three millenia ago, does that mean that their descendants have an absolute right to that same land?

We're all human - how much a part does race and ethnicity play in the legitimacy of a people's claim upon a land? If I live here now and I paid the price of the property, doesn't that have precedence over somebody who claims the property because his ancestors lived there a thousand years ago?

It's a very ticklish question, one that's not answered easily.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 11:18 PM

Actually you never really own land. The government has the emminant domain on your land, at least in the US.

I read something somwhere that the Pallestinians were trying to prove they were the descendants of the Phillestines.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:01 AM

No, you surely don't really own land. You just use it temporarily. And when you die, the land owns you. ;-) (so to speak)

It's not a question of who "owns" the land, it's a question of who belongs there. I'm saying that people who are born on an area of land belong there. They belong there more than someone who just arrived on a boat. Does anyone dispute that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:03 AM

So who owns your land? Who belongs there?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:10 AM

This land is your land, this land is my land
From California, to the New York Island
From the redwood forest, to the gulf stream waters
This land was made for you and me

As I was walkin' - I saw a sign there
And that sign said - no tress passin'
But on the other side .... it didn't say nothin!
Now that side was made for you and me!


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:13 AM

My land? You mean mine personally? My family owns it until such time as the government decides to create a state of emergency over something...and then if we're in the way of something they want to do, too F-in BAD! (grin)

Since the odds are fairly high against that happening in my neck of the woods in the near future, I figure our chances of continuing to "own" our land are pretty good. But I'm telling you that the land will have the last laugh, because we are all going to die, but the land will still be there. Unto eternity.

People are fools to think they can really own land.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:19 AM

But who belongs there?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:23 AM

I have no idea who belongs on a particular little local piece of land. What I meant about "belonging" on land was this: people who are born in a region belong there by virtue of the fact that they were born there, and they KNOW it...just like an animal knows it. They belong there more than someone who was born in a far distant region does. Where do you live, Old Guy? What region or state do you live in? And where were you born?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:32 AM

You see, I'm aware that I was born in Canada, and I feel at home in Canada. I wouldn't like it if 800,000 Chinese or Americans arrived in Ontario, took over a quarter of the province, set themselves up their own government, and declared a new country there under their management and raised an army to shoot anyone who disagreed with them about it. Nor would I like it if the Ojibwas and the Six Nations decided to do the same thing...on the basis of ancestral claim to the land.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:45 AM

I was born pretty close to where I live. I am sure my land belonged to the Indians but they probably ran someone else off of it and someone else did it before them.

However getting back to the disputed land in Isreal.

Now that I know that the Hebrews preceeded Islam, I personally think the Jews should draw back to the borders originally defined by the UN and demand that the UN force other nations from screwing with them and threaten to use nukes if the UN can't do the job.

I think the UN shold tell Isreal to draw back to the original broders or they will not be protected by the UN.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 01:30 AM

Well, that's what I think too...aside from the using nukes part... (the Israelis already have tacitly threatened the use of nukes, and the Arabs are well aware of it).

We are basically in agreement on this, Old Guy. How about that! ;-)

I too feel that Israel should withdraw to the original 1948 borders, an international force should be put in place to secure those borders to protect Israel from attack and to protect others from attack by Israel...and the Palestinians should be provided with a reasonable sized homeland of their own...probably the West Bank of Jordan would be the most practical area for that, in addition to the Gaza strip. The Gaza strip in itself is too small, in my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: John O'L
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 01:46 AM

A crucial part of the story is the kidnapping of most of the Judeans buy the Babylonians around 600 BC.

Not only did the Babylonians allow them to remain together, retaining their national and spiritual identity, they seemed to encourage it. When the Syrians had conquered the northern tribes of Israel about a hundred years earlier they had distributed the Israelites throughout their empire in order to eliminate them as a people altogether. Apparently this was common practice at the time. I have often wondered why the Babylonians bucked the system as they did.

Then, when the Persians conquered the Babylonians and freed the Judeans, they insisted that the Judeans return to Jerusalem and rebuild the temple. What was that all about?

Did the Persians see themselves as the descendants of Ishmael? I doubt it. Did the Babylonians? I doubt that too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 05:00 AM

Is that correct that arabs arrived as conquerers in palestine 600 years ago?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 05:17 AM

Old Guy, why do I get the feeling that you are another Mudcat regular (and quite a well known one) using this occasional name?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Villan
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 05:20 AM

I don't really care.

Why can't religious people practise what they preach - PEACE


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 05:26 AM

God is not a real estate agent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 05:27 AM

Traditionally Jews seeking refuge from oppression in Europe found a safe home in muslim lands.Many Jews who were expelled from Spain by catholic extremists found refuge in Morocco and Cairo.

Jews,Muslims and christians also coexisted quite peacefully for most of the time in Palestine right up to the beginning of the modern ers.

What really damaged and then destroyed relationships between the Jewish and Muslim communities was Zionism....the belief that he Jewish people were entitled to an exclusive state in Palestine.

The very first Zionist settlement in Palestine was funded by the De Rothschild millionaire family in about 1885 and things went downhill from there.The first settlement was disguised as an agricultural setup.

The early Zionists set out to buy land from absentee landlords,would not buy arab produce,would not sell arab produce,would not allow arabs into their homes or businesses or trade unions and grabbed arab land.The 1917 Balfour Declaration [Balfour himselgf wasa well known anti semite ] showed the Palestinians that their future was going to be bleak.
hugo


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 05:28 AM

Not at all. IIRC Herod was of Arab (Idumaean or Edomite) descent. They were excluded (ethnically- cleansed) from the newly- independent Israel by the Maccabees after they revolted from the Seleucid successor of Alexander the Great. They would have had full access to Palestine during the Roman period, and of course thereafter when the Jews were dispersed following the revolts of the first and second centuries (some Jews still remained in Palestine).

In 634AD Palestine was seized from the (Christian) Byzantines by the invading Moslem army. Many of the inhabitants- Christians, Pagans and Jews alike- converted to Islam thereafter, and became, along with immigrants from other parts of the Moslem world, the ancestors of the modern Palestinians, and Arabic became the language in the place of Aramaic, Greek, Latin etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 06:40 AM

Interesting thread...I knew very little of all this history.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:15 AM

Have to repost the links to the 1923 treaty that created the Mandate Palestine area- ALL of Israel, Jordan, and the West bank. Originally designated by the League of Nations as a "Jewish Homeland" ( Same treaty gave present boundaries of Turkey, Syria, Iraq...) The British decided to carve off 70% as an "Arab Homeland"- and removed all of Transjordan ( east of the Jordan River) from the Mandate. THEN the British decided to divide the remainder of the "Jewish Homeland" into Arab and Jewish Palestine, based on population ( like Pakistan/India division). Post WWII, the UN gave part of the "Jewish Palestine" to the Jews, and the rest to the Arabs- and the Arabs refused to accept the division, stating they wanted it all.

When the dust settled from the 1948 war, some of the Arabs ( a number stayed, and are Israeli citizens) had fled or been driven out ( about 640,000) of Israel, and almost all of the Jews remaining in Arab nations were expelled ( about 820,000) from those nations. Israel took in all the Jewish refugees, while the Arab nations kept the Palastinians in camps without citizenship. ANY "right of return " that addresses the Palestiinian claims to part of the land which does not address the greater Israeli claims to the property taken from the Jews driven out of Arab nations is less than useful.

While Arab nations controlled the West bank and Gaza, there was no attempt to create a state of Palestine- Gaza was part of Egypt and the West Bank was part of Jordan. The Palestinians were NOT given citizenship in those countries. Jerusalum (specifically the eastern part, containing the Wailing Wall, the last remaining portion of the Temple) was NOT acceccable to ANY Jew. Only after the 1967 war were ALL religions allowed access to their holy sites.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Suffet
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:22 AM

Greetings:

Just a few quick corrections to Guest Hugo.

The first modern Zionist settlement in Palestine was Rishon Le-Zion, founded in 1882 on land owned by Tzvi Leventine -- a Jew, not an Arab or Turk -- and puchased from him by a committee of Jewish immigrants who had arrived in Jaffa that year. Edmond James de Rothschild, the French philanthropist, entered the picture four years later, when the settlement was floundering, and he gave it much needed financial and organizational support. This included helping the settlers develop citrus growing and wine making industries.

Rishon Le-Zion was not "disguised" as an agricultural setup; it was an agricultural setup. Thanks to Rothschild's early support, and thanks even more to the courage and determination of its early settlers, Rishon Le-Zion is now Israel's fourth largest city.

The name Rishon Le-Zion literally means "First to Zion," and comes from Isaiah 41:27. To wit: The first shall say to Zion, Behold, behold them: and I will give to Jerusalem one that bringeth good tidings.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 08:20 AM

Is that correct that arabs arrived as conquerers in palestine 600 years ago?

What I said was, "the first Arabs arrived there from the Arabian Peninsula, as conquerors btw, about 600-700 years after Christ."

That would make it about 13-1400 years ago.

As to where are the ancient Philistines, the ancient Egyptians, as well as the ancient Babylonians, the 10 Lost Tribes of Israel, etc., they are simply lost to history.

The area of ancient Babylon is now called Iraq. Both Iraq and modern day Egypt are Arab countries.

Of course, these few words in an Internet forum are very simplistic. The whole story is very complicated. Many scholars have devoted lifetimes to it. Undoubtably, many more will in the years, centuries, to come.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 08:45 AM

I was aware that the fertile plain between the Tigris and Euphrates river was the cradle of civilization. Baghdad was ground Zero. Now it is very uncivilized. The Muslims there can't even get along with themselves.

So I assume the Zionists are the hebrew extremists and the hezbollah/hamas/al aqsa/PLO etc are the Islamic extremeists who are causing the trouble.

The way I see it is those Ayatolahs that scowl and shake their finger and foment violence are the root cause of Islamic extremism but who is the cause of Zionist extremism?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 08:54 AM

I assume the Zionists are the hebrew extremists

You assume wrong. A 'Zionist' is simply anyone who believes that Israel is, and should be, the Jewish homeland. The vast majority of Israelis only want to be able to live in peace. Most Israelis long for peaceful co-existence with the Arab countries and most support the establishment of a (terrorist-free) Palestinian state.

There are, of course, Zioinist extremists, particularly within the settler movement. Equating all Zionists with such terrorist organizations as Hezbollah and Hamas is repugnant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:28 AM

OK I am just figuring this stuff out.

If it is the Zionist extremists who are causing the trouble on the Jewish side, how can they be dealt with?

I believe the Pallestinians have thier own territoy for a homeland but they are not satisfied. They want it all.

Does Israel govern that territory until the Pallestinians can run it themselves?

I think those Settlements in Pallestinian territory are wrong. I think there can never be peace as long as they exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:39 AM

No, they really DON'T "have their own territory" in the usual sense. They have what they have been 'allowed', and are, naturally, not pleased.

You are trying to oversimplify it all.


by the way...only ONE 'L' in Palestinian


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