Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4]


BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?

Little Hawk 23 Jun 07 - 02:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Jun 07 - 01:54 PM
Amos 23 Jun 07 - 01:29 PM
Peace 28 Aug 06 - 12:38 AM
Slag 28 Aug 06 - 12:36 AM
Peace 28 Aug 06 - 12:11 AM
Slag 27 Aug 06 - 11:43 PM
The Fooles Troupe 27 Aug 06 - 10:03 PM
Slag 27 Aug 06 - 05:08 PM
robomatic 27 Aug 06 - 03:50 PM
artbrooks 27 Aug 06 - 12:44 PM
The Fooles Troupe 27 Aug 06 - 04:48 AM
The Fooles Troupe 27 Aug 06 - 04:18 AM
Slag 26 Aug 06 - 11:54 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 26 Aug 06 - 10:47 PM
Naemanson 26 Aug 06 - 09:38 PM
The Fooles Troupe 26 Aug 06 - 07:44 PM
robomatic 26 Aug 06 - 05:51 PM
Slag 26 Aug 06 - 05:30 PM
artbrooks 26 Aug 06 - 04:06 PM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Aug 06 - 10:03 PM
dianavan 25 Aug 06 - 08:41 PM
Slag 25 Aug 06 - 05:51 PM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Aug 06 - 07:10 AM
dianavan 25 Aug 06 - 03:24 AM
Slag 25 Aug 06 - 02:22 AM
dianavan 24 Aug 06 - 09:44 PM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Aug 06 - 09:31 PM
dianavan 24 Aug 06 - 06:15 PM
artbrooks 24 Aug 06 - 05:44 PM
Slag 24 Aug 06 - 03:31 PM
dianavan 24 Aug 06 - 12:38 PM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Aug 06 - 06:46 AM
Slag 24 Aug 06 - 02:30 AM
number 6 23 Aug 06 - 10:04 PM
Old Guy 23 Aug 06 - 09:58 PM
Little Hawk 23 Aug 06 - 09:33 PM
number 6 23 Aug 06 - 08:59 PM
The Fooles Troupe 23 Aug 06 - 08:57 PM
Old Guy 23 Aug 06 - 08:39 PM
The Fooles Troupe 23 Aug 06 - 08:24 PM
Little Hawk 23 Aug 06 - 11:37 AM
Old Guy 23 Aug 06 - 10:59 AM
The Fooles Troupe 23 Aug 06 - 08:29 AM
John MacKenzie 23 Aug 06 - 08:17 AM
Little Hawk 23 Aug 06 - 08:06 AM
The Fooles Troupe 23 Aug 06 - 07:52 AM
Wilfried Schaum 23 Aug 06 - 03:21 AM
dianavan 23 Aug 06 - 02:26 AM
Old Guy 22 Aug 06 - 03:03 PM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 02:11 PM

Slag, the way I've heard people sing it is, "and the joy we share as we tarry there, none other has ever known".

You could interpret it this way: Every person experiences his or her own joy in a totally unique and personal way. Therefore, no one can ever know exactly what that is like for any person other than themselves. Everybody's experience of it stands alone.

It doesn't imply to me that no one else can HAVE the same experience...just that their perception of it would be unique.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 01:54 PM

Perhaps Yiddish should be included in that list as well, since it's got significant Hebrew elements, alongside the German etc.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 01:29 PM

Linguistically the following chart of languages of Semitic derivation, both Arabic and Hebrew (as well as African relations) may be of interest,

Semitic (73)
Central (55)
Aramaic (16)
Eastern (14)
Central (11)
Northeastern (9)
ASSYRIAN NEO-ARAMAIC [AII] (Iraq)
CHALDEAN NEO-ARAMAIC [CLD] (Iraq)
HÉRTEVIN [HRT] (Turkey)
HULAULÁ [HUY] (Israel)
KOI-SANJAQ SOORET [KQD] (Iraq)
LISHANA DENI [LSD] (Israel)
LISHANÁN [TRG] (Israel)
LISHANID NOSHAN [AIJ] (Israel)
SENAYA [SYN] (Iran)
Northwestern (2)
MLAHSÓ [QMQ] (Syria)
TUROYO [SYR] (Turkey)
Mandaic (2)
MANDAIC, CLASSICAL [MYZ] (Iran)
MANDAIC [MID] (Iran)
SYRIAC [SYC] (Turkey)
Western (2)
SAMARITAN ARAMAIC [SRA] (Palestinian West Bank and Gaza)
WESTERN NEO-ARAMAIC [AMW] (Syria)
South (39)
Arabic (36)
ARABIC, ALGERIAN SAHARAN SPOKEN [AAO] (Algeria)
ARABIC, ALGERIAN SPOKEN [ARQ] (Algeria)
ARABIC, BAHARNA SPOKEN [AFH] (Bahrain)
ARABIC, CHADIAN SPOKEN [SHU] (Chad)
ARABIC, CYPRIOT SPOKEN [ACY] (Cyprus)
ARABIC, DHOFARI SPOKEN [ADF] (Oman)
ARABIC, EGYPTIAN SPOKEN [ARZ] (Egypt)
ARABIC, GULF SPOKEN [AFB] (Iraq)
ARABIC, HADRAMI SPOKEN [AYH] (Yemen)
ARABIC, HASSANIYA [MEY] (Mauritania)
ARABIC, HIJAZI SPOKEN [ACW] (Saudi Arabia)
ARABIC, JUDEO-IRAQI [YHD] (Israel)
ARABIC, JUDEO-MOROCCAN [AJU] (Israel)
ARABIC, JUDEO-TRIPOLITANIAN [YUD] (Israel)
ARABIC, JUDEO-TUNISIAN [AJT] (Israel)
ARABIC, JUDEO-TUNISIAN [AJT] (Tunisia)
ARABIC, JUDEO-YEMENI [JYE] (Israel)
ARABIC, LIBYAN SPOKEN [AYL] (Libya)
ARABIC, MESOPOTAMIAN SPOKEN [ACM] (Iraq)
ARABIC, MOROCCAN SPOKEN [ARY] (Morocco)
ARABIC, NAJDI SPOKEN [ARS] (Saudi Arabia)
ARABIC, NORTH LEVANTINE SPOKEN [APC] (Syria)
ARABIC, NORTH MESOPOTAMIAN SPOKEN [AYP] (Iraq)
ARABIC, NORTHEAST EGYPTIAN BEDAWI SPOKEN [AVL] (Egypt)
ARABIC, OMANI SPOKEN [ACX] (Oman)
ARABIC, SA ARABIC, SANAANI SPOKEN [AYN] (Yemen)
ARABIC, SHIHHI SPOKEN [SSH] (United Arab Emirates)
ARABIC, SOUTH LEVANTINE SPOKEN [AJP] (Jordan)
ARABIC, STANDARD [ABV] (Saudi Arabia)
ARABIC, SUDANESE SPOKEN [APD] (Sudan)
ARABIC, TA'IZZI-ADENI [ACQ] (Yemen)
ARABIC, TAJIKI SPOKEN [ABH] (Tajikistan)
ARABIC, TUNISIAN SPOKEN [AEB] (Tunisia)
JAKATI [JAT] (Moldova)
MALTESE [MLS] (Malta)
Canaanite (3)
HEBREW, ANCIENT [HBO] (Israel)
HEBREW [HBR] (Israel)
SAMARITAN [SMP] (Palestinian West Bank and Gaza)
South (18)
Ethiopian (12)
North (3)
GEEZ [GEE] (Ethiopia)
TIGRÉ [TIE] (Eritrea)
TIGRINYA [TGN] (Ethiopia)
South (9)
Outer (3)
n-Group (2)
GAFAT [GFT] (Ethiopia)
GURAGE, NORTH [GRU] (Ethiopia)
tt-Group (1)
GURAGE, WEST [GUY] (Ethiopia)
Transversal (6)
AMHARIC [AMH] (Ethiopia)
ARGOBBA [AGJ] (Ethiopia)
GURAGE, EAST [GRE] (Ethiopia)
HARARI [HAR] (Ethiopia)
MESMES [MYS] (Ethiopia)
ZAY [ZWA] (Ethiopia)
South Arabian (6)
BATHARI [BHE] (Oman)
HARSUSI [HSS] (Oman)
HOBYOT [HOH] (Oman)
JIBBALI [SHV] (Oman)
MEHRI [MHR] (Oman)
SOQOTRI [SQT] (Yemen)
Unclassified (1)
BIRALE [BXE] (Ethiopia)


An interesting cross section of the migrations of ancient tribes, this.

Excerpted from here.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 12:38 AM

Why not? Either quote Miles or don't.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Slag
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 12:36 AM

" He walks with me and He talks with me
And He tells me I am His own
And the joy we share as I tarry there..."
Sorry, the last line is theologically incorrect so I won't recite it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 12:11 AM

Too many people insist on speaking for God. He is able to speak for Himself. And if He doesn't speak for Himself, maybe He just don't feel like talkin' right now.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Slag
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 11:43 PM

That's sweet, isn't it?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 10:03 PM

Yes Slag, and as my old minister used to say, don't ever forget that teh Devil can cite scripture for his purpose - and THAT always confusedme -how do I know? :-)


"Since God is not the author of confusion"

I do like that expression...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Slag
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 05:08 PM

Well, no, you're almost right. The Hebrew Bible in the Hebrew language mentions Arabs (aleph, resh, beth) which derives from a root word that means, ironically enough, "Ambush" or to lurk, lie in wait. The first instance is Joshua 15:52. Both Ishmael and Israel descend from the same father, different mothers, they are half brothers. Both sides of the question readily agree to this! It's a family feud. One of Israel's 13 or so children was named Judah. Judah's tribe united with the tribe of Benjamin and they became the southern kingdom, under the reigns of David and Solomon. The hot bone of contention was where was the correct place to worship God. Bethel (the House of God ) in the north had the earlier claim. The Judeans and Benjaminites claimed revelation and establisjhed a temple in Jerusalem. The ten tribes to the north rebelled after the death of Solomon and the miserable reign of his son Rehoboam and it remmaind that way until the Disapora. It is interesting to have this in mind when you read the account of Christ and the woman at the well in Samaria. The Jews as a state and a religion hated the Samarian even to the time of Christ even though they were all closely related as were the Arabs. As a religion, the Jews (as descendants of Judah and Benjamin) they believed they were the guardians of the TRUTH. If one consented to this and converted he too could become a Jew, of sorts (the religion aspect) but he wasn't as Jewish as one born a Jew. In this day and age that has sort of lost it's distinction among many, although many others claim to have kept their genealogies from ancient times. So, Judaism is a race and a religion neither of which are absolutely necessarily inclusive. You can be of the Jewish (and in the broader sense "Semitic") race and not be a religious person. Such is the view Hitler took. You can be a Jew and not be Semitic like Sammy Davis Jr. was. Pretty much the same with most of Islam and being an Arab.

As for Noah, he was neither. I don't think he took any termites along for the voyage (for obvious reasons) and yet here they are. I know of certain fundamentalist who even claim that he had dinosaurs on the ark because since the Earth is only 6000 years old they had to co-exist with man AFTER the Flood. Since God is not the author of confusion, I tend to not buy this reading of events. Thinking like this happens when you believe in Holy Ink. In those days the "whole earth" was a much more local event especially since, as you pointed out foolestroupe, the extent of the Earth was so largely unknown. Big flood to them! It got everything, i.e. the "Whole Earth" and what foresight to save your farm animals and sacrificial animals. If God in His wisdom invented nature and the laws of nature I would have to assume that all He did, He did through those laws of nature. Some very extraordinary events DO take place in this world, some quite devastating and if you believe in the Creator you may understand these events as having purpose but the "natural" explanation will also hold water (pun intended). This always brings the question of God down to a matter of faith as opposed to a provable fact. I've got some Scripture for that too but I'm sure you grasp the concept without going into detail.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 03:50 PM

Thanks AB that's what I was trying to say but the hour was weird and for some reason I was channeling Bobert.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 12:44 PM

It remains a fact, regardless of what obscure quotes are found in the English language version of the Bible, that "Arab" denotes a specific racial/ethnic type and "Jew" refers to a person who is, or is descended from, a practitioner of the Jewish religion. All Moslems are not Arabs, and some Jews are.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 04:48 AM

And Noah didn't take kangaroos, emus and wallabies into the Ark...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 04:18 AM

... but the OT (fount of literal knowledge) omits those living in China, England, France and the rest of Europe, the Americas, Australia, the Pacific Islands, etc...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Slag
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 11:54 PM

Robo Man, et al, read the earlier posts. Yes the Bible does mention Arabs several times plus other named off-shoots of the family. Moses' wife was a Middianite, i.e. an Arab. Hebrews and Arabs were not always at each other's throat!! "Palestine" was Roman for Philistine which was what Emperor Hadrian ( of "WaLL" fame ) named it after he forced the Jews out of their homeland after killing almost a million of them. There were NO Palestinians around at that time. The Philistines were actually Phoenicians and were most likely the progenitors of the Greeks. Check out the alphabet developements. They were a very interesting people.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 10:47 PM

To get to the other side!

Art


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Naemanson
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 09:38 PM

Who came first? Ugh, the cave man. When he saw a lightning strike he interpreted it as a sign from the sky god. Unfortunately Agh, the other cave man, saw it as a sign from the cloud god. They've been fighting ever since with only small changes in philosophy and large changes in weaponry.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 07:44 PM

"Back in Biblical days there were [snip] Philistines"...

... but the problem is that at the alleged time that a literal reading of the OT claims they were there, the Philistines hadn't yet arrived in the good ol' lands. I doubt they had even got out of bed...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 05:51 PM

Man oh man, this round robin is a gittin' ineressen' my two cents is wurth as much as ennywun's so I's gonna merely observe that Arabs is Semites and Jews is religionists. Therefore y'kin be Arab and Jewish as there them Yamenites iz.

So th'original question containes the seeds of its own disslution since it is a nonsense question. If the question is who come first, Arab or Phoenician, Who come first, Arab or Greek? Anuther parallel question might could be: who come first, Muslim or Jew? But that there question purty much answers itself.

BAck in Biblical days there were Cananites, 'gyptians, Philistines, 'n such. Don't recall Arabs in the good book. Assyrians, fo'sure.

But I know many people in this thread got themselves a prbelm 'memberin' back before Barbie thew Ken out on his ass.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Slag
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 05:30 PM

Come on artbrooks! I saw a pair of Baptized Hooters that I would recognize Anywhere! O, e-a-c-h o-t-h-e-r! Well, you may have a couple of points there.

Written across the base structure of the dome on the Dome of the Rock mosque in Jerusalem in Arabic ( I've been told ) are the words "God has no son." I don't know if the word used there for God is Allah but if it is, I would have to agree with their statement, Allah has no son.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 04:06 PM

Not original, I know, but this seemed like a good place to put it:

During these serious times it is important for all of us, of all faiths, to recognize these four Religious Truths:

1. Muslims do not recognize Jews as God's chosen people.

2. Jews do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

3. Protestants do not recognize the Pope as the leader of the Christian world.

4. Baptists do not recognize each other at Hooters


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 10:03 PM

" The message of Christianity is that God has forgiven us."

As I said, God forgives, Man doesn't...


"One of the hard things in discussing religion and psychotherapy is that both operate from a closed system"

Yep - for a good dissertation on this, read "Escher, Godel and Bach - an Eternal Golden Braid" by Pulitzer prizewinner Douglass Hofstedder.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 08:41 PM

I thought when Christ said Forgive them for they no not what they do, he was referring to the specific incident, ie: the crucifixion.

Odd, how someone can exprapolate from the specific and create a doctrine that covers the general population.

From someone who was born without sin, I get a little chuckle from your example of Adam and Eve, Slag.

Carry on, old boy, if it works for you.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Slag
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 05:51 PM

Well Foolestroupe, my statement and conclusions are drawn from the source I was referencing. I wasn't refering to YOUR lack of forgiveness. That is YOUR ass-umption. The message of Christianity is that God has forgiven us. It was Christ's prayer at His crucifixion "Father, forgive them..." All of Mankind has received the forgiveness of God. This is what "Grace" means and I do accept God's forgiveness. As for you, I am not really aware of anything I need forgiveness from you for but if you think I do then I would hope that you would forgive me but if you don't I think I can probably live with it. As per your last statement I totally agree. One's faith should hopefully include tolerance for those of other faiths and opinions. We have got to stop sawing off people's head or stealing their lands or resources in the name of God (or expedience).

As per dianavan's last statement, if Man, represented by Adam and Eve, lived in a state of harmony with God in the beginning then breaking that harmony in order to go their "own" way or to become their own gods WAS an act of rebellion and so is every choice throughout history that goes against the Author and Creator of Life.

One of the hard things in discussing religion and psychotherapy is that both operate from a closed system. That means that every criticism gets interpreted by the internal logic of the system and has a "pat" answer or explanation. If you criticized Freud in some way he would interpret that not as a criticism but as a manifestation of your own anal-expulsive complex. You can't win. Same thing with religion. It's like you are both using the same language or words but the meanings have been altered and you are drawing different conclusions. If the discussion were about the Maha-yana or the Hina-yana sects of Bhuddissm rather than "Who came first, the Arab of the Jew" I could answer from within the different systems of Bhuddism and be able to apply that system in such a way that it answers every question. That's the nature of the beast.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:10 AM

"Was this rebellion? No. This was ...."

That's YOUR opinion.



"I'm not perfect, just forgiven"

... in your opinion... by whom you care about ... but not necessarily by everybody else... if you ASS-U-ME automatic total forgivness by everyone, you make an ASS...

That may be The Almighty's Way, but it is clearly not Mankind's Way, as the current differences of opinion in the Middle East demonstrate... and we all have to share this planet with those who do not always share our beliefs, for the moment..


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 03:24 AM

Well, at least your two cents is definitely no better than mine. Longer, perhaps but I still think your statement,

"the Christians would respond that they would obey God" shows that they were rebelling against Jewish Authority.

You can call it whatever you want.

I would also like to remind you that your version of events is only your version. There are plenty of others who have their version of events.

Mankind's rebellion from God? Now there's a concept! Its so obvious that the majority of North America and Europe is rebelling against God, what do you suppose will happen next? Have we got to the book of Revelations yet?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Slag
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 02:22 AM

First I must apologize to dianavan. I DID get personal. I do sometimes get a little caught up in the to and fro and I need to take my own advice to lighten up a bit.

To answer artbrooks and your comments: At first the Christians WERE completely observant Jews and the only Bible they had was the Torah. That's what they used and quoted. Jesus was considered by some Jews who believed him to be the promised and long awaited Messiah. Messiah means the Anointed One in Hebrew as does the term Christ in Greek.

The first Messianic promise/prophesy is in the Book of Genesis [ Chapter 3, vss 14-15]. God promises that the seed of the women (the Messisah) will bruise the head of the Serpent ( Satan, the adversary of Mankind) and the Serpent will bruise the heel of the Messiah. In light of subsequent prophesies this has been understood by most mean that an appointed One would come to destroy Satan and his work (the Fall of Man) and that Satan would inflict a poisonous blow to the Messiah.

Another great promise to Abraham, the father of Ishmael and Israel [Genesis 12: 2,3 ] was that for his obedience God was going to make a great nation of him (Abraham) and that all the families of Earth would be blessed through him.

Many other Messianic prophesies are scattered throughout the pages of the Torah which fill out the picture. One of the most remarkable and complete prophesies is Isaiah 52: 13- 15 through Isaiah 53:1-12.

The New Testament came about as members of the new sect began to write down their recollections and those of others about the life of Christ and the events which surrounded His ministry and penultimately His sacrifice.

As the revelation and understanding began to grow and as people began to understand the freedom and liberty they had by surrender and acceptance of Jesus as their Messiah and their ultimate authority, the Jewish authorities began to realize that their grip on their people was slipping away and they began to persecute the new movement. When ever the verbal showdowns came the Jewish authorities' bottom line as to who was in control of their people's conscience, their soul the Christians would respond that they would obey God and not Man. Was this rebellion? No. This was the re-establishment of God's order that was in the beginning BEFORE the Fall. It was putting an end to Mankind's rebellion from God. You might say that Christianity is the ultimate capitualation.

Beyond the four bios of Christ ( Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) and the history of the early Church ( The Acts of the Apostles) are the letters of Paul and Peter and some others to those early Churches. These works became the New Testament and they serve as an explanation of how Christ fulfilled the promises and prophesies of the Jewish Scriptures.

As the word spread and the movement grew, proselytized Gentiles and other Ethnic groups began to respond to the Truth they were hearing. The problem for the very early Church was that these folks were not Jews!!! Much debate went on and for some these converts had to first become Jews which meant circumcision. The ins and outs of this debate are recorded in the New Testament as well as it's resolution. The Apostle Paul's clarion truth won out. There is NO act of Man that can secure salvation for himself. All the work was done by Jesus Christ's atoning death and ressurection. Circumcision wouldn't cut it! It counted for nothing. To believe that there was something you could do to save yourself was to claim that you didn't need God or His Son's sacrifice, that is to say, to reject what Christ did as only He could was to reject your only means of salvation. The thread of this idea runs throughout the New Testament but is most clearly seen in the Letter to the Church at Ephesus and again in Paul's Letter to the Galatians.

Paul was not in a conspiracy. His preachment was open and clear to all and when he was called to Jesusalem to explain his message and mission to the Gentile nations he made no bones about it. The Gospel was for the blessing of ALL nations as promised to Abraham 1700 years or so earlier.

I am putting this out as informational. The Christian sect of Judaism was never intended to be a rebellion and I want to personally apologize again to dianavan and anyone else who was rightly offended by my obviously bellicose debate mode. It wasn't warranted and it certainly did not reflect a Christ-like attitude on my part! I'm not perfect, just forgiven.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 09:44 PM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 09:31 PM

'Do you really think that you are considered to be an authority on the subject?'

If you insist on getting all your history from a literal reading of just one book...

Slag neglected to mention that subsequent Pauline Conspiracy# allowed non-Jews to become Christians. That caused a big bun fight at the time. Rebellion or not, the Christians were no longer welcome...





# I'm not referring to Mrs Hanson...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 06:15 PM

If Christianity isn't a form of rebellion against Judaism, then why is there Christianity or the New Testament for that matter. Why didn't they just stick to the Old Testament and Judaism?

It may have been a peaceful (was it?) rebellion but it was a rebellion none the less. Christians defied many of the cultural conventions of the Jews, including dietary restrictions. I thought Jesus spoke quite harshly about the money lenders in the temple. I also thought the Jews did not believe Jesus to be the Messiah.

In any event, Christianity created a schism.

So Slag - Too bad you have to resort to putting me down to convince yourself that you are more learned, scholarly and worthy than me. My statement was not without logic and it was not intended as a smear to either Christianity or Judaism.

btw - I am neither Christian or Jew so take your assumptions and your arrogance elsewhere. I have read both the old and new testaments but do not recite versus.

I have just as much right to post as you do. You don't own this thread so you can't tell me what to do or where to post. Do you really think that you are considered to be an authority on the subject? What a joke.

Like I said, I gave my two cents. Take it or leave it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 05:44 PM

So then, that means that Christians are completely observant Jews? Then who is this Jesus guy, anyway?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Slag
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 03:31 PM

"For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft..." I Samuel 15:23a. Jesus is quoted in Matthew 23:2 "...Saying, 'the scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat; [that is the seat of Jewish State auhority] '" v. 3 "All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do [ that doesn't sound like rebellion to me ]; but do not ye after their works: for they say and do not [meaning that they did not keep their own dictates but Christ's followers should!]"

Elsewhere Jesus says [ Mt 5:17 ] "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." THAT doesn't sound like rebellion either.

The writer of Hebrews [12:14] says "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:"

In numerous places the Apostle Paul admonishes his converts to obey the authorities that be "for all authority comes from God [ not the abuse of authority]. Rebellion is the antithesis of the Christian doctrine.

So, I renew my original argument. You have mischaracterized Christians and Christianity.

True. It is an internet forum. Does that mean that the rules of logic no longer apply? Every statement should go unchallenged? Yes, you have an opinion. Seems everybody does but what is your opinion worth? Well, I guess I should lighten up a little. After all the forum is called BS and your statement certainly qualifies.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 12:38 PM

Slag - What are you talking about?

All I said was that Christians were rebellious Jews.

Why do you think I "mischaracterized, misrepresented and maligned" Christianity?

Instead of attacking my "sholarship", please tell me what it is you disagree with. Besides that, "my two cents" does not equal my "scholarship" and this is not a thesis, its an internet forum.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 06:46 AM

"the Jewish Torah has the argument of antiquity on it's side. It has a very high degree of demonstrable integrity in it's favor ( a history and tradition of accurate copy"

... except for the Hosianiac conspiracy, which has now been 'outed'...

... but then, how would I know?

;-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Slag
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 02:30 AM

In response to dianavan's somewhat incoherent ramblings: I have never seen Christainity so completely mischaracterized, misrepresented and maligned then dismissed in so short of a space. Your scholarship defies discription and makes me wonder at the main bulk of your post. I frightens me that I actually agree with a small part of it.

The word religion is used twice in the KJV, once in Galatians 1:14 and again in James 1:26. The Greek word is "threskeia" or "threskos" and it means an outward appearance of piety. Elsewhere the words worship (worthiness), Godliness, piety have a similar but more positive meaning.

This thread has the potential to rehash the history of the world and certainly the history of religious thought and development in the Western and Middle-Eastern World and we really don't want to go there. I'll just comment that the Bible, the Jewish Torah has the argument of antiquity on it's side. It has a very high degree of demonstrable integrity in it's favor ( a history and tradition of accurate copy). The New Testament, to the believers of Jesus as God's Messiah (The Anmointed One) neatly dovetails with the Torah as a fulfilment of prophesies of the same. I have read some of the Qoran in English and I cannot speak as one who has a complete intellectual understanding of the same but from what I have read it is quite divergent from the ancient texts. My impression is that it is written as a reaction to the dominance of Judaism and Christianity at the time it was written (ca 600 A.D.). The Book of Mormon uses a similar approach (additional and counter-revelations) posited against the more ancient texts.

So many people have gotten it so wrong for so long that I really hesitate to say anything beyond the most general and self-evident facts. These "RELIGIONS" of peace have killed so many people, have been abused and missused to subdue and enslave people. And, I have to assume that each practioner of each view-point truly believes that "they have it right." I'll refrain. But (there's always a "but") I will say this: Before you comment on this source of so much that has gone into shaping our world---READ IT! Sound like you know what you are talking about. That or go post on another thread.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: number 6
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 10:04 PM

er my mistake ... my agreement goes to Old Guy.

sIx


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 09:58 PM

I have been to all kinds of churches and even a Jewish funeral. Nothing I can't hack. I even have Amish friends.

There is an "Islamic Learning Center" under construction in site of my house. I hope they won't be teaching Jihad there.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 09:33 PM

Couldn't agree with you more, Old Guy. It's ludicrous that these 3 religions which are 3 branches of the same original tree should be fighting each other. It casts doubt on the whole darned tree from which they grew.

Civilization is definitely about tolerating other people who are different, and most of us would be quite willing to if a few zealots and greedy people in search of money didn't start wars and cause all the trouble.

But when the bombs start going off people get scared...and scared people lash out...and everything goes out of control quicker than you can see "Jack Robinson" or "Jihad".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: number 6
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:59 PM

My Scottish pagan wife, says pagans were first.

Foole ... Your last statement says it all ... and I wish everyone could acheive that simple rule.

sIx


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:57 PM

The Zoroastrians were the original Monotheists...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:39 PM

Ok. Focusing on only Jews, Muslims and Christians because it is so damned complicated.

What the hell are we fighting about? They all have the same roots like Judaism is the mother religion, Christianity is the first offspring and Islam is the second.

It looks to like Zealots are causing the problems.

I really don't have a religion myself but I tolerate other religions as long as it is not some bastards t5hat want to kill me because I am not exactly like them. Isn't that what civilization is all about? Tolerating other people that are different?

Have I achieved enlightenment?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:24 PM

As indeed do the few remaining original Zoastrians.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 11:37 AM

622 A.D. is the start of the Muslim calendar. For a much more recent religion there is the Bahai faith which started in the 1800's. It has a great many very progressive ideas, much more so than either Islam or Christianity, and it recognizes the legitimacy of all other world religions, their prophets, and their teachings.

The Bahai faith started in Iran where it has received great persecution from the Muslim majority to this day.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 10:59 AM

It is clear that Islam began around 800 AD correct?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:29 AM

... and God spake unto Moses and said "Come forth".

And Moses tripped, and came fifth...

Thanks for reminding me of my childhood Little Hawk....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:17 AM

Same face same race, as somebody once said.
G.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:06 AM

I don't think it's very tasteful to make these kind of dumb sex jokes about warring peoples...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 07:52 AM

Those who live by the sword, die by the sword.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 03:21 AM

Who cares? It is a problem of military history - what you took with the sword can be taken from you with the sword again.
Peace can only be created by mutual respect for other man's rights (the famous saying of Lic. Benito Juarez, in short).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 02:26 AM

This is a great thread. Now here's my two cents.

As nomadic Arab herdsmen began to settle, a moral authority developed and the religion was called Judaism. Many were unhappy with Judaism because they thought it had become corrupt. Christians were the rebels.

While civilization developed, there remained nomadic tribes of Arabs in the wilderness. Mohammed brought religion and a moral code to these people which was no small task. Therefore we have 3 very similar religions. They all have the same roots and the people also share a common heritage.

btw - Somebody mentioned that the Jews were freed from their captivity in Babylon. Yes, after Cyrus (a Zoroastrian), liberated Babylon he told the Jews to go to their promised land and build their temples and worship their God.

From Oznet (but you can google Cyrus and learn more about him):

As Prof. Richard Frye of Harvard said (in The Heritage of Persia, p10-151):

"In the victories of the Persians... what was different was the new policy of reconciliation and together with this was the prime aim of Cyrus to establish a pax Achaemenica..... If one were to assess the achievements of the Achaemenid Persians, surely the concept of One World, .... the fusion of peoples and cultures in one 'Oecumen' was one of their important legacies"

The victory over Babylonia expressed all the facets of the policy of conciliation which Cyrus had followed until then. He presented himself not as a conqueror, but a liberator and the legitimate successor to the crown. He took the title of "King of Babylon_ King of the Land". Cyrus had no thought of forcing conquered people into a single mould, and had the wisdom to leave unchanged the institution of each kingdom he attached to the Persian Crown. In 537 BC he allowed more than 40,000 Jews to leave Babylon and return to Palestine. This step was in line with his policy to bring peace to Mankind. A new wind was blowing from the east, carrying away the cries and humility of defeated and murdered victims, extinguishing the fires of sacked cities, and liberating nations from slavery.

Cyrus was upright, a great leader of men, generous and benelovent. The Hellenes, whom he conquered regarded him as 'Law-giver' and the Jews as 'the annointed of the Lord'.

Where is Cyrus when we need him?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 03:03 PM

Edidently English is not her first language but her writing is on a par with Bobert's.

Correct me if I am wrong but what I gather from all this is Jews descended from or were Arabs, Christians and Muslims descended from Jews.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


Next Page

 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 6 April 8:52 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.