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Carolan or O'Carolan??

greg stephens 04 Aug 06 - 05:37 AM
Scrump 04 Aug 06 - 05:44 AM
The Borchester Echo 04 Aug 06 - 05:46 AM
Tim theTwangler 04 Aug 06 - 09:13 AM
Tootler 04 Aug 06 - 06:38 PM
GUEST 05 Aug 06 - 03:45 AM
Little Robyn 05 Aug 06 - 07:12 PM
GUEST,Dark Slender Boy 06 Aug 06 - 02:27 PM
The Borchester Echo 06 Aug 06 - 02:36 PM
MartinRyan 06 Aug 06 - 03:04 PM
Paul Burke 07 Aug 06 - 04:39 AM
MartinRyan 07 Aug 06 - 04:56 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 07 Aug 06 - 06:58 AM
Scrump 07 Aug 06 - 07:04 AM
The Sandman 07 Aug 06 - 10:34 AM
The Sandman 07 Aug 06 - 10:37 AM
Geoff Wallis 07 Aug 06 - 10:45 AM
The Borchester Echo 07 Aug 06 - 10:59 AM
The Sandman 07 Aug 06 - 12:42 PM
Geoff Wallis 07 Aug 06 - 02:19 PM
The Borchester Echo 07 Aug 06 - 02:34 PM
MartinRyan 07 Aug 06 - 02:43 PM
The Borchester Echo 07 Aug 06 - 02:50 PM
Geoff Wallis 07 Aug 06 - 02:53 PM
The Borchester Echo 07 Aug 06 - 02:59 PM
Big Mick 07 Aug 06 - 03:05 PM
The Borchester Echo 07 Aug 06 - 03:31 PM
Big Mick 07 Aug 06 - 03:47 PM
The Borchester Echo 07 Aug 06 - 05:43 PM
Ned Ludd 07 Aug 06 - 06:03 PM
greg stephens 07 Aug 06 - 06:40 PM
Paul Burke 08 Aug 06 - 03:32 AM
Mr Yellow 08 Aug 06 - 12:40 PM
Geoff Wallis 08 Aug 06 - 01:53 PM
The Borchester Echo 08 Aug 06 - 02:33 PM
Kaleea 08 Aug 06 - 03:09 PM
Jim I 08 Aug 06 - 06:57 PM
GUEST,leeneia 08 Aug 06 - 07:01 PM
Effsee 08 Aug 06 - 09:30 PM
Jim I 08 Aug 06 - 09:46 PM
Effsee 08 Aug 06 - 10:06 PM
Paul Burke 09 Aug 06 - 03:15 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 09 Aug 06 - 07:37 AM
GUEST,JTT 11 Aug 06 - 07:01 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 13 Aug 06 - 07:02 AM
The Sandman 13 Aug 06 - 03:15 PM
Haruo 14 Aug 06 - 02:47 AM
Paul Burke 14 Aug 06 - 03:30 AM
GUEST,JTT 14 Aug 06 - 03:48 AM
ard mhacha 14 Aug 06 - 04:03 AM
The Sandman 14 Aug 06 - 04:41 AM
The Sandman 14 Aug 06 - 04:44 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 14 Aug 06 - 11:29 AM
Paul Burke 14 Aug 06 - 11:32 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 14 Aug 06 - 11:38 AM
MartinRyan 14 Aug 06 - 11:50 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 14 Aug 06 - 11:51 AM
MartinRyan 14 Aug 06 - 12:35 PM
GUEST,Terry (Terence) Carolan 22 Aug 06 - 07:26 PM
Paul Burke 23 Aug 06 - 04:24 AM
Declan 23 Aug 06 - 04:45 PM
Declan 24 Aug 06 - 03:41 AM
GUEST,Terry (Terence) Carolan 27 Aug 06 - 08:27 PM
Declan 28 Aug 06 - 03:31 AM
GUEST 28 Aug 06 - 08:37 AM
Mr Happy 16 Oct 08 - 06:52 AM
Murray MacLeod 16 Oct 08 - 06:28 PM
bubblyrat 16 Oct 08 - 07:27 PM
GUEST,leeneia 17 Oct 08 - 04:30 PM
Tootler 17 Oct 08 - 04:59 PM
GUEST,Mo 19 Nov 10 - 07:35 AM
mikesamwild 08 Jan 11 - 08:02 AM
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Subject: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 05:37 AM

I alwaays say Carolan, but I've just been taken to task and told it should be O'Carolan. What think you?


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Scrump
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 05:44 AM

Carolan was O'Carolan's old man ;-)

I've seen both used for the same person - assuming you are referring to Turlough [O']Carolan the famous blind Irish harpist. A Google search will turn up references for both, referring to the same person. Maybe someone who knows will be able to give the definitive answer.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 05:46 AM

Toirdhealbhach Ó Cearbhalláin (or Terence Carolan)


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan?? him it back
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:13 AM

Hey if you find out which it is get his address 'cos we got a book of his here and I would like to give him it back.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Tootler
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 06:38 PM

According to my book of Carolan [sic] tunes*;

"Carolan's full name in Irish is Toirdheallbhach Ó Cearbhalláin... When Gaelic names of this type are written in full it is proper to prefix the Ó to the surname. When, however, the surname is used singly, the only satisfactory method is to use form used by the owner and his friends. ...Carolan was known to himself as Cearbhalláin, or, in English, Carolan"


* "Ireland's best Carolan Tunes" Compiled by John Canning and Published by Waltons.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 03:45 AM

The two volume biography by Donal O'Sullivan is entitled'Carolan, the life and times of an Irish harper'(Dublin 1958)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Little Robyn
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 07:12 PM

Tootler has it right - you either say 'Carolan' or 'Turlough O'Carolan'.
Robyn


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: GUEST,Dark Slender Boy
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 02:27 PM

Countess Richard,

'Toirdhealbhach' does not translate as 'Terence' and sounds absolutely nothing like the English alternative you propose! Its English version would be spelt as 'Turlach' or 'Turlough'.

Perhaps you might learn more Irish before pontificating in the future!


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 02:36 PM

Nowt to do with me, narcissistic male person. I got it off Contemplator.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: MartinRyan
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 03:04 PM

A Bhuachaill Chaol Dubh

It's the difference between "translation", so-called, and "transliteration". Relax.

Regards
p.s. The general point made earlier is correct. In practice, in Ireland,in English, we speak of "Carolan's music" but refer to "Turlough O'Carolan".


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 04:39 AM

So why is it "O'Neill's 1001 Tunes" and not "Neill's"? Seen any of Casey's plays lately? And how many tries has Driscoll scored in the Six Nations?


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: MartinRyan
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 04:56 AM

Paul

FWIW, I was talking about the case - rather than the "rule". Even then, it is not unheard of to find "O'Carolan's music", for example - just much less usual.

Note that in the two examples you give, there is a significant change in vowel sound in moving between the two languages. My instinct is that this may have something to do with it. I'm not awake enough yet to find anothe example!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 06:58 AM

The two volume biography by Donal O'Sullivan, "Carolan, the Life, Times and Music of an Irish Harper" has been reissued, both volumes now together under a single set of covers, published by Ossian Publications, Cork, Ireland, 2001 - and it also contains an appendix with some new music from a Scottish manuscript plus other additional material, discoveries which have been made since Dr. O'Sullivan's death. This new section was researched and written by me. Ossian have since sold their catalogus to Music Sales Ltd, who now handle this book, so it's back in print.

This book was the source from which the Contemplator website got their main info, and they really should have credited it. The true scholarship was O'Sullivan's.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Scrump
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 07:04 AM

The real title of "Sullivan's John" is "O'Sullivan's John", but that didn't scan so well ;-)


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 10:34 AM

Most Irish people today are proud of their O.Atthe time of the famine Protestants persuaded the starving to drop their O in return for soup [ hence the derogatory phrase a souper], sometimes the O was mistakenly missed off when people emigrated. If O Carolan was alive today I am sure he would insist on his O. Although his distantly related descendant is nicholas carolan. It really depends on whether there was a clan and what they were called , for instance barrett is a clan name but never had an O. Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 10:37 AM

Perhaps we should all hold hands and have a seance in cyber space and bring him back from the dead.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 10:45 AM

Donal O'Sullivan's Carolan: The Life, Times and Music of an Irish Harper has this to say about 'the form of Carolan's name' (it's a long paragraph, so I've broken it up a little):

'His full name in Irish is Toirdhealbhach Ó Cearbhalláin, though one often meets with minor variations in the spelling of both forename and surname. The forename is generally rendered in English as Turlough or Terence. When Gaelic names of this type are written in full, it is proper to prefix the Ó to the surname. When, however, the surname is used singly, the only satisfactory method is to follow the form used by the owner of the name and by his friends.

'Carolan twice brings his own name into his poems – in his song for Fallon and his song for John Stafford (see the notes to nos. 46 and 161), and in both cases he employs the form Cearbhalláin. MacCabe, his most intimate friend, twice mentions his name in his elegy and uses the same form. Charles O'Connor, also a very close friend, refers to him in his diary, as Cearbhalláin and in his letters to Walker, written in English, as Carolan, not O'Carolan. It is therefore certain that Carolan was known to himself and his friends as Cearbhalláin, or, in English, Carolan.'

However, the village of Keadue in County Roscommon, where Carolan (following Sullivan) is buried has an O'Carolan Heritage Park, the O'Carolan B&B and, of course, continues to host the O'Carolan traditional music summer school and O'Carolan Harp Festival. So, in order not to confuse readers I have called him O'Carolan in the latest edition of the Rough Guide to Ireland though referred to him as Carolan in the Rough Guide to Irish Music.

Other well-known bearers of the surname include the current head of ITMA, Nicholas, who simply uses the Carolan form when providing his surname in English.

Sullivan does investigate whether or not Ó Cearbhalláin was a clan name, but does not come up with any explicit confirmation.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 10:59 AM

All the above is on the Contemplator site already linked to above. What is this? National waste of bandwidth week? More ominously, Contemplator also yields the following alarming information:

Carolan: The Life and Times of an Irish Harper
Donal O'Sullivan
Published by Celtic Music
Louth, Lincolnshire, England
1991, (First published in 1958)


Someone ought to ask Nicholas Carolan what royalty deals and/or permissions were involved.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:42 PM

Well as this is a public forum and I do not wish to be sued for libel , I will restrain myself about celtic music and Dave Bulmer. Only to say I feel very bitter, he owns three of my vinyl recordings , which are over twenty years old, he appears to have no intention of bringing them out, but refused to sell them to me, one of them has Martin Carthy playing guitar, one of them was a concertina quartet, I cant bring the recordings out on CD, And the public are denied access to folk material,WHY.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 02:19 PM

I'm certainly not sure what the ubiquitous Countess Richard's point is or why she herself wastes more bandwidth by making it - and, in these broadband days, is anybody really bothered about bandwidth?

My quote from O'Sullivan's book was an attempt to clarify the Carolan/O'Carolan issue by referencing the relevant passage. The fact that some site which, as Bonnie has pointed out, is reproducing extracts from O'Sullivan's book without permission, was provided as a link is irrelevant. It would have been far more useful if the Countess had copied the relevant information and included it on this thread herself!

She also writes in reference to my previous message that 'All the above is on the Contemplator site already linked to above', thus revealing a somewhat limited attention span (and a fascination for the word 'above'). I provided the full quotation from O'Sullivan, not the bowdlerised version available on Contemplator, which I hoped might be helpful. Also, none of the information I presented about the use of 'O'Carolan' in Keadue has been collated in such form elsewhere.

Apparently, all this isn't sufficient for the Countess. Oh, well, c'est la guerre.

Geoff


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 02:34 PM

I hold no brief whatsoever for Lesley Nelson nor the Contemplator site but merely pointed out that the extracts from O'Sullivan's book, duly attributed, were already linked to the thread before MusTrad basher Wallis decided to reproduce them tediously and unnecessarily, as a result, presumably, of omitting to read aforegoing posts.

What I was pointing to additionally was that Contemplator reveals publication details of this O'Sullivan reprint, a matter of sufficient alarm to bring Mr Miles (and doubtless many others suffering under Bulmerism) to the brink of apaplexy.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: MartinRyan
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 02:43 PM

O O' O O' O O' O' Oh!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 02:50 PM

Yes, OK Martin. I know.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 02:53 PM

Oh, no, Countess (or should I call you Diane?).

I'd read your postings and their lack of information which is exactly why I decided to respond in such detail. You seem to believe that you have some kind of monopolistic position regarding whatever information is posted upon Mudcat and, of course, the fRoots forum site.

Please do explain the 'MusTrad basher' reference, but do it via a personal message, rather than boring anyone reading this thread.

By the way, I went to school with Bob Pegg, knew him for several years, and perhaps might just know a little bit more about him than your messages on the fRoots forum pages have revealed. But, hey, live with it.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 02:59 PM

No, Mr Wallis. It's Ms Easby to you.

I didn't have the honour of going to school with Bob Pegg, largely because he lived in Nottingham and I didn't. Also he's two years older than me. I didn't know him till he was at Leeds Uni then teaching at Hatfield Poly when he also edited Club Folk. I worked at C#House at the time. Don't recall ever meeting you. Not that this has anything to do with (O) Carolan.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 03:05 PM

I was just wondering if Mr. Wallis, Lizzie Cornish, all other detractors, and countess richard/Diane/Easby wouldn't mind just getting a room and leave the rest of us to a decent discussion. I believe I am getting tired of listening to this snobbish garbage.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 03:31 PM

Well actually the discussion was going perfectly well before this Wallis person and/or somebody called Dark Slender Boy barged in with a load of meaningless, repetitive garbage. That, of course, is madlizziecornish's forté too but she's not (thank deity of choice) around just now.

I provided (as is my wont) in very few words and a link all known information (give or take the odd bit of tittle-tattle) about Mr Terry Carolan's various noms de plume. Herr Wallis might want to blether on about his irrelevant childhood reminiscences and lack of knowledge of 60s revival singers (as lizziecornish likes to amuse herself by slagging off government childcare policy and rabblt on about present-day MOR pop wannabes on MySpace). As long as they do it in a room well away from me (and presumably 'bigmick') that's fine.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 03:47 PM

You are right, cr, and I apologize. It just seems to be the norm these days, and I am tiring of it. You didn't do anything here to deserve the response you got. I just wish that those with personal issues with you would take it somewhere else.

And by the by, Wallis, Diane doesn't control anything here. She is simply a contributor. And usually a pretty good one.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 05:43 PM

I just wish that those with personal issues with you would take it somewhere else

Or shut up. I don't even know these people so the 'issues' are not personal, except in their fantasies. The many I know (and want to know) here on Mudcat communicate offlist in normal civilised fashion, And long may they do so.

And thanks Mick.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 06:03 PM

So as I understand it, it's Turlough(Terence) O' Carolan,formally, Carolan to his friends and possibly O'Carolan to others.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 06:40 PM

Oh dear, I started this thread to find out what people thought was the most appropriate way to refer to the famous Irish harper. it is a bit some of our pseudonymous guest posters find discussing traditional music so difficult without attacking other people.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 03:32 AM

Sod off. Who asked you to butt in? Why wasn't your original question abusive in the first place? Some people these days haven't any respect for the traditions of the forum.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Mr Yellow
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 12:40 PM

"O'Neill's 1001 Tunes"

was, if I get my history correct, compiled by Captain O'Neill. Captain of the Chicago Police Force - collected mostly, if not all, from his officers - Irish ones at that.

As he put his name to it - I guess he has the say of it. So he does.

and anyway, as pointed-out, the O' denotes "son of" as in the Scots "Mac" and the English " 's" or more commonly Welsh - eg Evans, Williams, Jones etc.

And "daughter of" would be "ni" in whatever spelling.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 01:53 PM

Diane Easby wrote:

'Well actually the discussion was going perfectly well before this Wallis person and/or somebody called Dark Slender Boy barged in with a load of meaningless, repetitive garbage. That, of course, is madlizziecornish's forté too but she's not (thank deity of choice) around just now.'

Thanks for the pleasant introduction, Diane. You well know who I am and, as usual (check your 600+ postings on the fRoots forum site) decide to dig the boot in rather than considering the import of anybody else's messages. I am not 'Dark Slender Boy' since I only post messages under my own name on Mudcat. It's a great pity that you don't follow the same principle ('Mary').

>I provided (as is my wont) in very few words and a link all known >information (give or take the odd bit of tittle-tattle) about Mr >Terry Carolan's various noms de plume.

So why do you persist in believing that you remain right about everything (PS is the picture of Stalin still up on your bedroom wall?)

>Herr Wallis

Charming!

>might want to blether on about his irrelevant childhood reminiscences

Why irrelevant since I know more about the Bob Pegg than you could ever do?

>and lack of knowledge of 60s revival singers

Sorry, Diane, but you're way out of your league here. I suggest you just nip down to the corner shop and get a bottle of D&B to revive your senses.

>As long as they do it in a room well away from me (and presumably 'bigmick') that's fine.

I offered Diane the chance to make her comments to me via a personal email. She didn't do so.

Anyone unfamiliar with Easby's tactics should be well advised that she seems to spend her whole life dismissing the views of other contributors on not just this site, but the fRoots Forum and the BBC folk list.

She clearly needs to get out more and enjoy some music.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 02:33 PM

you know very well who I am

No, I don't. Fortunately. Except that GW is someone who appears not to know who Al O'Donnell is nor anything of the past dealings of Adastra in representing a certain Irish band . . .

And I'm not Mary Humphreys with whom GW insists on confusing me. Though I'd like a slice of her talent. Mary posts here under her own name, though might well have chosen 'countess redin' as I chose (or rather had imposed on me) 'countess richard' some years ago. It was quite funny at the time. Most people here with even a cursory understanding of the English tradition know perfectly well who we are, where we are coming from, and that we know and respect each other.

Dunno what D&B is but a bottle of South African Chard is blocking out nicely the distastefulness of having to deal, hopefully for the last time, with such a boorish troll.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Kaleea
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 03:09 PM

I have a copy of "The Ancient Music of Ireland by Edward Bunting, Prefaced by the author's complete 'A Dissertation on the Irish Harp and Harpers, including an Account of the Old Melodies of Ireland' " --which was first published in 1840. Some of you may know that Bunting, as a teen, was hired to notate the tunes performed by the last of the old Irish Harpers at the last "great meeting of the Harpers at Belfast, in the year 1792."
In the portion of the indices which list the "Author and Date" of the tunes, he lists the composer in question as "Carolan." On a page of Music, he attributes the composer's tunes as being, "By CAROLAN." I noticed, however, that on one page of Music, opposite "Mrs. Crofton," a tune called "The Lame Yellow Beggar is attributed "By O'CAGHAN."
So there we have it--or don't?


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Jim I
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 06:57 PM

Tentatively dipping a toe in...

With some years of experience of research in Irish parish records of Leitrim, Cork and Kerry I have noticed that in the first half of the 19th century only a very small number of people are recorded with O-prefixed names.

I am currently working on a parish in Leitrim with records from 1820 onwards. Almost the only name prefixed with O is O'Neil. This always appears in this form. Other typical O names like O'Rourke, O'Donohue, O'Brien, O'Donnell appear hardly at all. They are much more more usually seen as Rourke, Donohue, Brien/Beirne or Donnell etc.

On following the subsequent history of some of these families I find that many went to America and in many cases their descendants, with some of whom I have been in touch, have, at some point after leaving Ireland, adopted the O prefix.

There is a similar pattern with the Mac/Mc names. While there is a higher percentage of these in the parish records, there is also a very big increase of the use of these prefixes in more modern times and, in particular, in America.

It seems to me, therefore, that it is the descendants of these people who have asserted their Irishness by adding on the O/Mac/Mc etc.

Many of these records are from well before the famine and, although it is certainly possibly that names were changed because 'Irishness' was frowned upon, this would not explain how the O'Neils got away with it.

Jim


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 07:01 PM

That's interesting, Jim. Thanks for posting.

Kaleea, would you say that the book by Bunting is a good source of tunes to play today?


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Effsee
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:30 PM

"this would not explain how the O'Neils got away with it."...Got away with what exactly?


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Jim I
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:46 PM

Effsee asked
"this would not explain how the O'Neils got away with it."...Got away with what exactly?

In the parish records I have been looking at they are about the only people whose name ALWAYS has the O prefix.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Effsee
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 10:06 PM

So what exactly did they "get away with" ?
The phrase sounds like some kind of fraudulent behaviour.
What are you implying?


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 03:15 AM

This is getting silly. I thought it would have been pretty clear by now that there are as many people who Englished their name as O'Ryan as Ryan, O'Reilly as Riley, Connell as O'Connell etc. If there is a rule in Irish, it didn't get consistently applied, and as there was a distinct hiatus in the speaking of the language by most of the Irish population, quite possibly the rule is recent.

BTW I suspect the form O'Bourke is a sort of back- formation; Burke is a Hiberno-Norman family name, and not a patronymic at all, and the form only seems to be common in Australia. The Irish form IIRC is de Burca.

Perhaps the use of O' in English (and more particularly American) reflected the opposing pressures on immigrants to assimilate or to identify with their ethnic origins.

So Carolan/ O'Carolan? Just play the music.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 07:37 AM

Bunting's dates and attributions are not always reliable. "O'Caghan" more commonly known as O'Cathain (in a variety of spellings including English-language variants) is a different character altogether, a harper-composer born before Carolan's time.

Bunting's three volumes ARE a great source of music but - particularly in the later two - you will have to pare away the Victorian-pianoforte-style accompaniments and extract the gem and re-arrange it for your instrument. They contain chromatic changes that Irish harpers would not have been able to cope with. It's well worth the effort, but don't take all his history as gospel text. It's still an impressive achievement, and he continued collecting tunes for decades after the Belfast Gathering (1792), thereby enriching us immeasurably. His books and field notebooks remain some of the most important works in this field.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 07:01 PM

A bit of information on Carolan on this
(completely unrelated) geocaching site.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 07:02 AM

Yes, and it's a good example of what I mean about people skimming off Donal O'Sullivan's historical research for their own purposes, without giving him due credit.

While I'm writing, I understand from a private message that the Contamplator site does now credit the O'Sullivan book (they didn't last time I looked, but admittedly that was a long time ago). However there still is some misinformation which ought to be cleared up:

Bulmer did publish a reissue years ago (when he was still based in Louth) but his edition has long been out of print. The currently available one is the Ossian/MusicSales volume (both under one cover) that I cited above.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 03:15 PM

Personally, I am not too worried about the spelling of his name, [My own name is often misspelt , I dont care if its moyles, myles or miles]. The most important thing is that he left us all this wonderful music.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Haruo
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 02:47 AM

Given the drastic variations in pronunciation between different English words containing the sequence "ough", as in ought, though, thorough and rough to take the first four that come to mind, plus the Gaelic tendency to make "gh" a rough guttural fricative, my next question would be "in Ireland, in English, in practice" how does one pronounce "Turlough", if possible giving standard American English approximations by way of example.

Haruo


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 03:30 AM

Tooraloo of course.

(Only jocking)


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 03:48 AM

Heh! Thurlock, kind of, with the emphasis on the Thur. But in Irish, the 'th' sound is sharper than in English; you make it by striking the tip of the tongue on the tissue just behind the upper front teeth.

Returning to the O versus nO question: yes, there was a ban on Mac and O; if your name was a Mac or an O name you couldn't live in Dublin, and the O'wners got around it by dropping their O, the Macers by expressing their Mac as M' (eg M'Donagh) - a usage that's gone out since its hateful necessity did.

But Carolan/O'Carolan is an individual case. People discuss Carolan's (or O'Carolan's) music, but always say Turlogh O'Carolan. It's just one of those eccentricities of usage.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: ard mhacha
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 04:03 AM

Paul Burke, The sound commonsense you use, has little effect on some mudcat mambers.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 04:41 AM

turlock,the h is silent,certain letters do not occur in the irish gaelic language or are not pronounced.th is pronounced t.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 04:44 AM

i know someone called jo o regan.but common sense[which is often not common]means everyone calls him jo regan.but written letters are aderssed to j o regan.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 11:29 AM

Eh--- I was surprised to see something from Martin Ryan which referred to "Bhuchaill Chaol Dubh", and something about "meaningless" &c from a "dark, slender boy" which I take it implies "BCd"; I haven't written anything here until now!


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 11:32 AM

The Dark Slender Boy is Guinness, so maybe it was the beer talking.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 11:38 AM

Very good! (But I thought Guinness was... "Stout")

Just in case someone has a go at me for "wasting broadband" (?), I'll not get into an exegesis of Sean Aerach's song re. "The Dark Slender Laddie" (as Donal O' Sullivan renders it), but you've hit the ale on the (frothy) head right enough. Slainte; a point made plain is your only man.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 11:50 AM

ABCD

The comment was for GuestDarkSlenderBoy . I hadn't anticipated the confusion!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 11:51 AM

(Just checked thro this thread more carefully, and saw that a GUEST had used "Dark Slender Boy" on 6th August; apologies therefore to Martin Ryan - that "DSB" isn't the one who asked about Boney & F.H. some time back - before hastily staggering away)


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 12:35 PM

No apology needed! Thank you for the thought.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: GUEST,Terry (Terence) Carolan
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:26 PM

Wow! What a trip to see this much info and debate about a name the same as mine. I had no idea that Turlough also translated to Terence. I've oft wondered if Turlough O'Carolan was somewhere down in the twisted roots of my family tree. I'm a "pop wanna be" as was so politely mentioned in this string of messages, so I'm no afficionado of Celtic music, but I do like it and do have several recordings of T. O'C's tunes, which I like. I think if he were alive today he may be a pop wanna be too. He had a good sense for catchy hooks and songs in the 2-3 minute range.

Thank you all for the wonderful history surrounding my name.

Terry Carolan


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Paul Burke
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 04:24 AM

Carolan wasn't a pop wannabee, he was there.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Declan
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 04:45 PM

Just to be pedantic (why not join in) the O in front of Irish surnames represents grandson of, or descendent of rather than Son of, which is Mac both in Irelad as in Scotland. The Gaelic version of most surnames still retain the Ó or the Mac whereas it is dropped in some versions of the Anglicsed names. Thus I know a number of people who's names are Ó Ceallaigh in Gaelic, some call themselves Kelly in English, others O'Kelly.

As far as I can remember from my History lessons, surnames were imposed on us by the British and did not exist in ancient Gaelic. The practise of using surnames became widespread only after the practice of Primo genitur was introduced in the reign of Henry VIIIth as the rule for inheritence of property. In Gaelic speaking areas many people are still known locally by their given name followed byh that of a parent and Grandparent e.g Mairtin Seamus Seosamh.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Declan
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 03:41 AM

To be more precise, the use of Surnames (Ó, Mac etc) goes back to ancient times (e.g Fionn MacCumhaill). What changed in the 16th century was the idea of a family name which was carried down through generations.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: GUEST,Terry (Terence) Carolan
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 08:27 PM

I'm fascinated to see such interesting info, and debate, on the background of my name. Well, I guess it would be my namesake's name. I had no idea that Turlough was equivalent to Terence. I'm not certain if I am a descendant of the great Turlough but it is possible. I can't say I'm an afficianado of Celtic music, but I do own several recordings of O'Carolan tunes and very much enjoy them. I am a "pop wannabe" as someone so politely put it. I suspect that Turlough might also have been one if he were here today. He did have a penchant for 2-3 minute songs with catchy hooks. Well, thank you all for the insight and now I'll know how to spell my name in Irish... if that should ever be necessary.

Terry Carolan


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Declan
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 03:31 AM

Terry,

The modern Irish name for Terence is Traolach. A lot of spellings in Gaelic have been simplified over the years. I think there is a good chance that Traolach is a simplification of Toirdheallbhach, but I don't claim any huge expertise in these matters.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:37 AM

Yup, it's a simplification which reflects the pronunciation.

Its being linked to Terence is neither a translation nor a transliteration, it's the result of a process of establishing agreed equivalences, though don't ask me who did the establishing or the agreeing. Some certainly go back at least to the time of Elizabeth I - cf. Grace which is used as the English equivalent of Gráinne, as in Granuaile.

From my first week at school, I learnt to use Ruaidhrí as the "Irish for" Roger, though there is no link between the two names, and Ruaidhrí is if anything closer to Roderick, just as Éamonn is closer to Edmond than to Edward, though used for both.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Mr Happy
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:52 AM

Was at the inaugral night of our new sesh venue last night.

M/cat terrier played Hewlett, & I remarked 'That's one've Turlough O'Carolan's greatest hits!'

& was then rebuked by terrier saying 'His name was Carolan, NOT O'Carolan!'

So I've checked it out here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turlough_Carolan

If it really is without the 'O', it certainly makes the name much easier to say!


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:28 PM

With or without the "O", the thing about Carolan that has always puzzled me is how the tunes survived.

I mean, he was blind, right ? So no way did he jot down the notes.

No digital recording either, I very much doubt if he even had reel to reel ...

So was there a band of faithful acolytes, ace transcribers, following this itinerant harper from gig to gig and jotting down his every note, or did he hold weekly or monthly seminars in which he would play all his latest compositions at leisure for the benefit of the transcribers ?

Seriously, how did the tunes survive ?

I can guess at how they survived, but does anybody actually know?


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: bubblyrat
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:27 PM

To take it to its logical conclusion -if one is determined,for whatever reason,to leave out the "O" ( surely one of the enduring and defining features of Irishness ?)in O'Carolan (which is how I always refer to him ),then perhaps we should call him "Carlan" ??

                      Ralph Cholmondeley-Featherstonehaugh


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 04:30 PM

Except in cases where fraud is intended, my view is that a person's name is what he says it is. If Turlough called himself 'Carolan,' then that's his name.

At college age, I decided that I did not want to use my middle initial. I felt that using it made me sound like a dentist or something. Since then, I just identify myself with my first and last names. That's my decision, and so that's my name.


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Tootler
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 04:59 PM

According to the book of Carolan tunes that I have, his name formally was Turlough O'Carolan, but the evidence in his own writing and in that of his friends suggests that he normally referred to himself simply as "Carolan".


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: GUEST,Mo
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 07:35 AM

O'Carolan....Means Grandson of Carolan...in English translation....
McCarolan would be Son of...
an "O" prefixed Irish Names are Older than "Mac" or "Mc"...as seen in The Name O'Brien...Many of whom supposedly descent from Brian Buru..and It was around his time Irish Surnames came to exist...1000 odd years ago
Many Gaelic Dropped the O as seen in names such as "Scottish Neill"...Rielly...Rourke...Sullivan...Kane....Connor....Kelly...Lunney...Lynch ...Gorman....Boyle...Laughlin....Malley...Flaherty...Flynn....Dowd....Haire.....Madden ...Donoghue....Riordan....Donovan....Moore (More)....etc etc etc


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Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: mikesamwild
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 08:02 AM

In Lancashire my Granny still called me for fun, Michael o'Bessie's (my mum). It had been a common way of distinguishing people with similar names or to show parentage.


re Carolan's tunes, I often wondered about how they were passed on. I think it was the tremendous memory within the old bardic tradition which was part of the education and training.It was still alive as the Gaelic aristocarcy was fading.

I read a tale of how Carolan hid and learned a piece by a visiting musician (maybe an Italian Baroque maestro)and then played it before him claiming it as his own composition. Quite a joker!

Most traditional musicians I know have hundreds of tunes by ear and memory and most don't seem to be dot or ABC readers. Also the local repertores were probably smaller than today and committed to memory by long aquaintance.

he seemed quite happy to play for the toofs and with the ordinary people for ancing as well as listening and he certainly liked a jar.


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