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What makes a good hymn?
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Slag Date: 12 Aug 06 - 12:51 AM JennieG, hold that song, Amazing Grace in your heart always. It is a tribute to your mother and her faith. |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Haruo Date: 12 Aug 06 - 01:55 AM Cwm Rhondda is a great tune, whether you sing "Guide me, O thou great Jehovah" (or some modernization thereof) or "God of grace, and God of glory" (the text I learnt it to). Ville du Havre is another fine tune ("It is well with my soul"). And Lobe den Herren ("Praise to the Lord, the Almighty, the King of creation"). I was just recommending "Chorus of fire" this morning on Baptistlife.com. Haruo |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Haruo Date: 12 Aug 06 - 05:21 AM There's a woman (Kathy) who's been asking questions about the origins of the tune "Ellacombe" on the discussion board of the Hymn Society in the US & Canada. In a spirit of collegial cross-fertilism I mentioned this thread in my most recent post there. If anybody here knows anything about the early history of the tune, which is generally said to have originated in "Gesangbuch der Herzogl. Wirtembergischen Katholischen Hofkapelle (Württemberg, Germany: 1784)", you might do the lady a favor and post it over there. This is one of those universal workhorse hymn tunes, and I think very likely has a folk song somewhere underneath. The Cyberhymnal sets eleven texts to it: 1. ARISE, THE KINGDOM IS AT HAND 2. COME, SING WITH HOLY GLADNESS 3. GLORY BE TO GOD ON HIGH 4. FILL THOU MY LIFE 5. HAIL TO THE LORD'S ANOINTED 6. HOSANNA, LOUD HOSANNA 7. JEHOVAH REIGNS IN MAJESTY 8. MY MASTER WAS A WORKER 9. O LORD, BY THEE DELIVERED 10. ROSEATE HUES OF EARLY DAWN, THE 11. THOU ART THE MIGHTY KING OF KINGS Of these, "Hosanna, loud hosanna" (a Palm Sunday hymn) is the one I grew up singing to the tune. My favorite of these texts is "Hail to the Lord's Anointed", but I like to sing it to "British Grenadiers", which is called Sheffield when used as a hymn tune. On another sidetrack, I really like "The Love of God", "The Comforter Has Come", and (as I've mentioned in several previous threads like this over the years, "His Voice, as the Sound of the Dulcimer Sweet". If anything makes these "good hymns" it must be the fact that I like them. Incidentally, do any of you who dislike "How Great Thou Art" think any less poorly of any of the alternative translations (e.g. the one in the New Century Hymnal). I've always had it in for "How Great Thou Art" mainly because of the way Stuart Hine tried to copyright (read "steal") both a Boberg poem (since he never credited the source, I doubt if he or Manna ever compensated the Bobergs) and a folk tune. Haruo apologizing again for the odd characters (hidden hyphens in the Cyberhymnal |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 12 Aug 06 - 05:46 AM Well there you go then Russ.... Impossible questions of Life, the Universe and Everything: Why do we never see baby pigeons? What are nipples on men for? What is folk? Who put the bomp in the bomp sha-bomp sha-bomp? What is Theology? Who is Sylvia and what is she? Why do birds suddenly appear? Why hast Thou forsaken me? Where do you go to, my lovely? It says in the Bible that man should remain unmarried, but then says he should get married if he can't get through life without being led into sin (although lots of people experience a withdrawal of said 'sin' once they are married). The Bible, like life, is full of contradictions. So is the Koran and the Book of Mormon. I could find a text that says 'thou shalt not kill' and someone could counter it with one that declares sinners should be put to death in a particularly gruesome and barbaristic way. It's another of those arguments which no-one can ever win... The Catholic Church and the Fransican movement argued for nearly 30 years over whether Jesus laughed or not! Besides... none of it matters because Jesus himself put it into 2 sentences. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and body, and love your neighbour as you love yourself. Do justly, love mercy, walk humbly with your God. LTS LTS |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Hrothgar Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:31 AM From what I've seen and heard at our hymn-singing sessions at the National each year, there is nothing to separate the good from the bad except the way people sing them. Good hymns are a bit like folk songs that way - it's very hard to come up with a good definition, but there are endless good examples. The words have to flow. The tune is better if simple. ... and people have to want to sing ... |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:49 AM It says in the Bible that man should remain unmarried, but then says he should get married if he can't get through life without being led into sin It is the Apostle St Paul who said that man shouldn't marry, but that it is better to marry than to be burnt by fire [viz. of passion]. To understand it you have to think about his eschatological hope for Jesus coming back soon. Oh, and by the way, before talking about the Script one should look up the exact words: 8. I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. 9. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. (I. Cor. 7, King James Version, ed. by the Gideons for the U.S. Armed forces 1941) Naturally the Bible is full of contradictions; it is a conglomerate of two collections. In the Old Testament we have books of history and laws, poetic texts including folk songs, collections of proverbs, sayings of prophets, and folk traditions written over a string of centuries (as you can see by certain changes in language). The New Testament is totally different; it contains some reports of the sayings and doings of Jesus (few biographical reports) and his suffering as the final sacrifice for the redemption of mankind (that is the important message!), a history of the young community in Jerusalem and the work of the apostles, and a lot of letters full of preachings and admonitions to the recently formed communities abroad. Then there is the Apocalypse, a prophetic book about doomsday. The teachings of the apostles sometimes differ in some points - small wonder, they are different human beings. So never say: the "Bible" says, it is mostly a special person talking who can be identified. E.g. St Paul stayed a bachelor all his life, while St Peter was married, due to the old admonition in Genesis "be fertile and multiply". Even in the Koran which is the collection of one man's saings you find some contradictions. So Muslim theology has developped a branch called "the abrogating and the abrogated". |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:56 AM I've come to the conclusion that Paul was a mysoginist.... some say he was gay... now THERE'S a question to split the Church again! LTS |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Haruo Date: 12 Aug 06 - 12:18 PM And yet Paul is the most feminist of New Testament writers, commending women co-workers as "[fellow] apostle[s]" and "deacon[s]", and advocating a thoroughly egalitarian, reciprocal model of marital relations. Haruo who used to think Paul was a misogynist, and still thinks he may have been other than hetero |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Slag Date: 12 Aug 06 - 05:49 PM In the letters attributed to Paul, he states in Galatians 3: 26-29 (KJV)"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus for as many as have been baptised into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And, if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Compare with Colossians 3:11. Paul was not a misogynist. Paul expected the imminent return of Jesus, during his lifetime. Paul was therefor a man on a mission and felt that he couldn't divide his time between doing his duty as a loving husband and accomplishing his mission for the Lord as the Apostle to the Gentiles. Paul had many women who he commended for their support of his ministry and the Christian love toward him. You've got to read the whole story before making general statements. If you don't, you will appeaar ignorant and completely biased in your point of view and anyone in the know will discount or dismiss your opinion. Most disputes about the Bible (and other religious writings for that matter) occur when people for whatever reason, misquote, or lift a passage out of context or declare a contradiction without exploring said contradiction. The Bible isn't "naturally" full of contradictions. There are some difficult passages to be sure and they occur for a variety of reasons, technical, historical, doctrinal, redaction, translation, stzimleben, etc. The really tough questions you've probably never even heard of. Why is the pseudoepigraphic Book of Enoch quoted in the Book of Jude? Why was Paul called a plagerist by the bystanders at Mars hill? Better still if Paul was considered a good Pharisee why wasn't he married in the first place, before his Damascus experience? If he was what happened to his wife? The latter is just a cause for speculation as we can never know. The Scripture is silent on this point which demonstrates another issue. The Bible is not God's "How I Did It" book. It doesn't purport to be the compendium of ALL knowledge. It was written by men, inspired by God to show how He has dealt and is dealing with His creation. By the way the Apocalypse or the Revealation of Saint John the Divine is not a "doom's day" book. For that matter the Doomsday Book, is not a "doom's day" book either but that is another story. Rather, it (the Apocalypse) is the revelation of Jesus Christ to the Apostle John. It covers things which both occured in his day and those events and subsequent revelations point to a greater fulfillment at the end of this age, a period of time theologians generally call the "Age of Grace" |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:43 PM When I was a lad we used to 'walk with the scholars' on Whit sunday. Round Swinton the walks were interdenominational with CofE and Catholic scools walking side by side. Well, in tandem if truth be tod as we all walked along the same roads! There were 3 Catholic schools - St Marks, St Charles and mine, St Marys. The Protestant ones were St Peters, St Augustines, The Holy Rood and some others I cannot recall. It was always a bit of a contest as the CofE school brass bands competed with the pipe band of St Marks or the fifes and drums of St Marys. As we all met in front of Swinton town hall I remember the massed bands and congregations of the Catholic schools belting out 'Faith of our Fathers', drowning out all opposition. One of the few times I was proud to be Catholic:-) So, to me, that is what makes a good hymn. I would rather have a good her nowadays. "Faith of our fathers living still, In spite of dungeon fire and sword..." Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: richd Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:53 PM hearing it sung in the distance as you make your escape down the road on your bike. |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Slag Date: 12 Aug 06 - 09:13 PM To each their own richd! That's it in mote: escape! At times I think it would be you, me and Christ blazing off on our Black Phantom Bikes! I would be low church, antivestarian and all. But then I think of Clive Lewis and others who made a authenic Christian life under all the stodgy trappings of institutuionalized and state church. And then I think of the Christians who flourished under all kinds of systems and persecutions and it seems that the tougher the times are, the more it flourishes. If you want to see it weaken, if you want the salt to lose it's savor, give it fattness, no opposition. Meet it with a "so what" attitude. That will separate the wheat from the tares. |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: GUEST,Bo in KY Date: 13 Aug 06 - 12:48 AM Then there is the discussion of difference between hymns and modern "praise choruses". I would argue a good hymn has a more complex structure and at least two verses, in contrast to the repetition of the "choruses". It is hard to project a good hymn up on a screen and include everyone in the singing, and the music requires a modicum of skill (e.g. being able to follow the melody notes) to sing on first exposure. A good hymn, IMHO, requires that you bring your brain to church, thus the theology is important; otherwise the touchy feely happy happy joy joy doesn't cover much of reality for most of us. In the Presbyterian tradition the "classic" hymns we know now were once rather controversial, because the Calvinists insisted that only the Scripture was appropriate for singing in worship, not the "words of man" or pretty poetry ("How Great Thou Art" would have been anathema 300 years ago). Thus their earliest songbooks were Psalters, settings of the Psalms either 'canted' or laid out to rhyme in English. The Gospel music tradition springs from the revivals in the 19th century where a more spontaneous, emotional tone was called for. They are more individualistic as well - most Gospel hymns are marked by "I" "Me" and "Mine" language (cf. In The Garden, Amazing Grace, Just As I Am, and thousands of others). The older tradition - and some newer ones (which I like) are first and foremost about God or Jesus, and only secondarily about "us". For me the dirge-y hymns often get to me the most - "O Come O Come Emmanuel" and "Ah Holy Jesus" can reduce me to tears. I think that Isaac Watts was perhaps the greatest songwriter/musician in history, but he is mostly overlooked or forgotten. "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross" is an absolute gem. And "O God, Our Help in Ages Past" Among more contemporary hymns, someone has already mentioned "God of Grace and God of Glory" which although written in 1930 sounds like today's newspaper to me (lines like "Cure Thy children's warring madness, bend our pride to Thy control; Shame our wanton, selfish gladness, rich in things but poor in soul; grant us wisdom, grant us courage, for the living of these days" get me every time). Brian Wren has written some beautiful hymns also - a line like calling God "gracious donor of our days" has volumes of theology in 5 words. Much global hymnody that has come to the attention of American churches in recent decades is powerful and graceful as well. Finally, I would add for you folkies that I think the church is one of the few places in American society where people gather and sing on a weekly basis, regardless of ability or age, not for performance or remuneration but just to satisfy the spiritual necessity of worship. It is, among many other things, a unique community of music. Peace, Bo |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Peace Date: 13 Aug 06 - 12:57 AM Bo, If you don't have it already, here is an excellent site for you to bookmark (or add to favorites). www.cyberhymnal.org/bio/w/a/t/watts_i.htm http://www.cyberhymnal.org/bio/w/a/t/watts_i.htm |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Slag Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:20 AM Bo, Amen! I must say that I am in complete agreement with your every point. You might have mentioned the Wesley brothers and their enormous contribution to modern hymns. They were soundly condemned in some corners but the "folk" loved their songs which were considered quite up-tempo for their day. The Great Awakening did much to begin this ball rolling as well as have a tremendous shaping influence on the direction English America was going to take. An excellent post. |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: GUEST,Allen in OZ Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:38 AM Good on you Bo.. A well argued set of points re hymns. One small question: why does God need to be praised all the time ? We have had 2000 years of Christianity..it might be time now to adopt the religion of Christ for a change . Still, a very good site this hymnal site. Jennie, perhaps you might like to start a site querying what makes a good folk song? AD |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Haruo Date: 13 Aug 06 - 09:02 AM "7-11" praise (the same eleven words sung seven times, or vice versa) aren't the only songs found in the hymnals that aren't hymns. What does one do with one like the Shaker dance song "Simple Gifts"? It doesn't have the requisite two stanzas. Some folks (Christians and atheists alike) may not approve its theology (if indeed it has any); the Shakers leaned a bit to the heterodox. The tune, of course, has been adapted for use in stanzaic hymns (most notably by Sydney Carter for his "Lord of the Dance"), but I'm thinking here of the original text, "'Tis the gift to be simple, 'tis the gift to be free, 'tis the gift to come down where we ought to be. And when we find ourselves in the place just right, 'twill be in the valley of love and delight. When true simplicity is gained, to bow and to bend we shan't be ashamed: to turn, turn, shall be our delight, till by turning, turning, we come 'round right." And speaking of the Wesleys and of Watts, Dr. Watts is on record as saying Chuck Wesley's "Come, O Thou Traveller Unknown", a fourteen-stanza hymn (a four-stanza cento from which is sung by present-day American Methodists to an adaptation of "Ye banks and braes o' bonnie Doon"), "was worth all the verses I myself have written." Personally I think collapsing it into anything under six stanzas is at least venially sinful. ;-) Alan, many descriptions of God will not admit God's neediness (despite Jesus' "I thirst!") and leave one to suppose that praise is a need or desire of the worshipper not of the Worshipped. But as for the "religion of Christ" (in contrast to Christianity), it still includes hymnody: the earliest account of Jesus' life and death, at Mark 14:26, tells us that after the final Seder in an upstairs room, "when they [Jesus and his closest followers] had sung a hymn, they went out to the mount of Olives." Haruo |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Slag Date: 13 Aug 06 - 05:48 PM Hurrah Haruo! |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Peace Date: 13 Aug 06 - 06:04 PM Psalm XXIII Henry Williams Baker (1821–1877) THE KING of love my shepherd is, Whose goodness faileth never: I nothing lack if I am his, And he is mine forever. Where streams of living water flow 5 My ransomed soul he leadeth, And where the verdant pastures grow With food celestial feedeth. Perverse and foolish oft I strayed, But yet in love he sought me 10 And on his shoulder gently laid And home rejoicing brought me. In death's dark vale I fear no ill With thee, dear Lord, beside me, Thy rod and staff my comfort still, 15 Thy cross before to guide me. Thou spread'st a table in my sight, Thy unction grace bestoweth, And O! what transport of delight From thy pure chalice floweth! 20 And so through all the length of days Thy goodness faileth never; Good Shepherd, may I sing thy praise Within thy house forever. I have always enjoyed good writing. To be able to take Psalm 23 and get it into the above form--not losing the gist or intent--marks a really good writer AS a really good writer. Although I do not share many of the 'ideas' put forth regarding Christianity, hymns have always held a special place in my heart, likely a love placed in me when I was first accepted to sing in a choir by an Anglican church in Montreal. Even within the confines of choir singing, there is room for an exploration of one's voice and phrasing, intonation and diction. Loved it then and still love to hear hymns sung by one or many people. |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Haruo Date: 13 Aug 06 - 07:34 PM Incidentally, I know that within the last year I have seen an American hymnal (or possibly British, but I don't think so) that had a hymn text (or maybe a metrical psalm) set to "Men of Harlech". Does anyone here know either which hymnal this might have been or what the text was? The tune is one that it seems to me few texts would benefit from, but I think this one fit perfectly, I just wish I could remember what and where it was. Haruo |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Haruo Date: 13 Aug 06 - 07:45 PM Sorry, Allen, I didn't mean to misspell your name (my brother is an Alan, so that's my default spelling if I don't watch myself). Haruo well, actually I call him Saburō ;-) |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Peace Date: 13 Aug 06 - 07:52 PM "Strong in Christ, Our Great Salvation"? |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Haruo Date: 13 Aug 06 - 08:11 PM I don't know for sure, but go ahead and post it. Haruo |
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Subject: ADD: Strong in Christ Our Great Salvation From: Peace Date: 13 Aug 06 - 08:24 PM Strong in Christ Our Great Salvation (Tune - Men of Harlech - but this one is for the choir who will have great fun with it - but it needs practising. I did get away with it at Raleigh without a choir, but only by a pre-start-of-church rehearsal.)
Strong in Christ our great salvation
Abraham inspired a nation |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Snuffy Date: 13 Aug 06 - 08:35 PM b>Bo in KY : you say "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross" is an absolute gem. - I can never hear: Love so amazing, so divine,without almost being reduced to tears But where did Cyberhymnal get that awful pedestrian HAMBURG tune? It can only and must always be ROCKINGHAM or it simply does not work. Haruo: - Were Watts and Wesley a mutual admiration society? You say "Dr. Watts is on record as saying Chuck Wesley's Come, O Thou Traveller Unknown", "was worth all the verses I myself have written." On the other hand Cyberhymnal says of WIBTWC "Charles Wesley reportedly said he would give up all his other hymns to have written this one." |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Haruo Date: 13 Aug 06 - 11:20 PM Threw me for a moment there, Snuffy, with that B... I think it's safe to say that Watts and Wesley were admirers of each other's work. They were not direct competitors; Watts' active hymn-writing career was pretty much over by the time Wesley came on the scene (in the late 1730s); he died in 1748. For that matter, I think most of Wesley's major hymns were written early in his career, too. Let's see... Of the 6,000 hymns Wesley is said to have written, and less exhaustively of the more than 200 listed on his bio page at the CyberHymnal, I list here, with their dates as best I can ascertain, the 21 that I consider major (doubtless there are a few others that I simply didn't note while skimming, or that the Cyberhymnal forgot to list, and a couple are only partially our doubtfully Wesley's—hence the occasional trailing (?)—but this should do for starters): And Can It Be That I Should Gain? 1738As you can see the vast majority were written in the first 11 years of Wesley's active hymn-writing career, i.e. 1738-1749. Haruo |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: GUEST,art thieme (sheepishly) Date: 14 Aug 06 - 12:25 AM ...As the old song states so succinctly, "A good "him" is hard to find!" ;-) art |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: GUEST,Bo in KY Date: 14 Aug 06 - 12:54 AM Thanks Peace, cyberhymnal already a favorite. And I agree, Christian worship across denominations would be much the poorer without the Wesley hymns. They were the Lennon/McCartney of their time :-). I wasn't aware of the Watts/Wesley connection - thanks!! And despite Gospel hymns not being my favorites, a tip o' the hat to Fanny Crosby, the blind 19th-century poet who wrote thousands of hymns, including "Blessed Assurance" and the rousing "To God be the Glory". She too was a genius of the genre. Haruo, thanks for the stab at Allen's question. It's not a "little" question, but the short answer for me is that God does not *need* to be praised all the time. It is the natural human response to our ineffable Creator. Why sing at all? Where do songs come from? Where does the question come from?? Peace, Bo |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Haruo Date: 14 Aug 06 - 01:53 AM As to the source of "Strong in Christ, our great salvation", which I asked Peace to post, it appears to be from this page belonging to one Revd. Simon Springett, RN, which also contains a number of other interesting hymn texts I've never seen before. I'm guessing they are actually Chaplain Springett's own work. And I would love to get in touch with him. Perhaps I'll call him (it's been a long time since I called England; I hear it's much cheaper now ;-) ), since he seems to have thoroughly hidden his email address. I'm still not sure if that's the text I saw in the unnamed hymnal set to "Men of Harlech". Anybody know any others? Haruo |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Haruo Date: 14 Aug 06 - 02:39 AM I think I've sleuthed out his email and have dispatched a query... Haruo |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Paul Burke Date: 14 Aug 06 - 03:41 AM Whit walks deserve their own thread Dave. Over the border, they were definitely Catholics at one end of the week, Prods at the other. My Auntie Doris used to keep house for the priests at St. Joseph's , Salford, (they had a fridge!!!) and we always went there before and after the walk. Brass bands, pipe bands, fife-and-drum bands, all belting out the old favourite tunes. Often no particular distinction between hymns and Irish nationalistic songs. Getting back to the presbytery after one walk, we found a very dazed bloke in the kitchen with a huge plaster across his nose. Turned out that he'd been the leader of a band, the guy with the twizzly stick, and he'd tossed it in the air as they marched round Piccadilly- failed to notice the trolleybus wires above, which catapulted the stick back down, straight into his face, and laid him out cold. |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: GUEST,Allen in Oz Date: 14 Aug 06 - 08:33 AM Good on you Haruo and Bo , I have enjoyed the thread. The points made re whether God needs praise is valid. The need ( if one exists )seems to come from people. Singing hymns may be an opiate albeit ( as Queen Victoria used to write in her diary) a lovely and harmless one. I still maintain that they involve a lot of grovelling and that if God is all powerful then all His works were to Him a piece of cake and that no praise is really needed. Still, the tunes are delightful and we all like singing them Bless you AD |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Haruo Date: 14 Aug 06 - 02:52 PM One hymn that hasn't been mentioned here, and that I consider one of the all-time greats, is K's "How Firm a Foundation", and I like to sing all seven stanzas (I generally do like to sing more stanzas than a typical congregation can tolerate) ;-) ... one nice thing about it is that the whole thing is "God speaking", now to the individual, now to the body (you can tell by the pronouns in the unmodernized text): vv. 1-2 are to the body (v. 1 actually not by God but by an impersonal narrator), 3-5 to the individual, and 6-7 in the third person. Since it's written in the persona of God, it's not a hymn by Augustine's definition, but it's clearly a hymn none the less. Oh, and definitely to the American "Foundation" tune (= "Bellevue", "Protection", etc.), not "Montgomery" or "Adeste Fideles". Haruo |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: GUEST,Russ Date: 14 Aug 06 - 03:17 PM When in doubt, blame Paul. |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Paul Burke Date: 15 Aug 06 - 03:54 AM What have I done now? |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Haruo Date: 15 Aug 06 - 05:29 AM Eponymous guilt. |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Mr Happy Date: 15 Aug 06 - 07:02 PM .......struck blind on t' road to Tarsus - 'e must be guilty!! |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: GUEST,JTT Date: 15 Aug 06 - 07:22 PM Just a little troll to annoy those English posters who claim Irish musicians have stolen the credit for all the music - I don't know if this is true, but I recently heard it claimed that most of the hymns in both the CofE and Catholic canon in English - oh, and the Prezzies too - were written by Irish people. |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: mg Date: 16 Aug 06 - 12:15 AM Well, often they are in Latin, and often sing praises to Mary, a statue that we worship (just joking). Today is the feast of the Assumption, and in a parish with some of the most awful music to be found anywhere in the post-Vatican abyss of ugly music, we actually sang Hail Holy Queen enthroned above...what a great chorus..Salve, Salve, Salve Regina....our life our spirit hear below Oh Maria..our hope in sorrow and in woe...lots of sorrow and woe and vales of tears in Catholic hymns. What makes the "new" Catholic stuff so awful is it is unrecognizable as to musical form. It will go from 3/2 time to 6/13 time to 7/2 time in the same song...all sorts of rests and flow charts to go from one verse to an alternate chorus to a hidden verse and back again. Nobody ever probably in the history of the world has actually sung like that..no particular rhythm, and they certainly don't rhyme the songs these days. The worst are when they take psalms and just wind them around some pretense of a melody. Anyway, the Welsh I think are the masters, with the Germans perhaps coming in second. This is Eurocentric, so sorry but I just am not too familiar with other cultures. I do know Maori and South Africans etc. are known for their singing and I did go to a church in Hawaii once when a group of teenagers from Maui attended and burst into fantastic song. Guide me oh thou Great Jehovah certainly gets a vote from me but I think the greatest of all when done well is Diadem as sung by the Welsh. That is for Protestant songs. Catholics..Holy God we praise thy name, Tantum Ergo, May crowning song (which musicians love to rip apart but we the people love it..bring flowers of the fairest bring flowers of the rarest..then we put a flower wreath on the statue.). God I do believe loves this song..Tantum Ergo...so I will put the words here because I have probably not had a chance to sing it for decades. TANTUM ERGO SACRAMENTUM VENI REMUR CERNUI ET ANTIQUM DOCUMENTUM NOVO CEDAT RITUI PRESTAT FIDES SUPPLEMENTUM SENSUUM DEFECTUI GENITORI GENITOQUE LAUS ET JUBILATIO SALUS HONOR VIRTUS QUOQUE SIT ET BENEDICTIO PROCE DENTE AB UTROQUE (?) COMPAR SIT LAUDITIO. AMEN. mg |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Paul Burke Date: 16 Aug 06 - 03:28 AM Sang Hail Holy Queen? Never heard it sung. We had to learn it aged 6 or so... apart from the Mother of Murphy bit, when it got to "To thee do we send up our size", I just KNEW that was a bit like Mum's mail order catalogue, and we were just reserving an appropriate sized white gown in case we died young (which of course we were going to do every night). |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Hrothgar Date: 16 Aug 06 - 04:44 AM mg, thanks for puling out those old lumps of the Latin Benediction. Bits of it were some of the best flowing stuff I can remember, especially "Adoremus is aeternam" etc. Now, should "Hail, Holy Queen" be "Hail, Queen of Heaven?" That's the one for the Assumption. |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Haruo Date: 16 Aug 06 - 05:13 AM Now, should "Adoremus is aeternam" be "Adoremus in aeternam?" Haruo |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: GUEST,mg Date: 16 Aug 06 - 05:33 PM I don't know Hail, Queen of Heaven. The Hail Holy Queen prayer I believe went after the rosary after we said the 3 hail Marys for the conversion of Russia. Hail Holy Queen Mother of mercy, our life our sweetness and our hope. To thee to we send up our sighs mourning and weeping in this vale of tears.....???? Oh tender, oh loving, oh sweet virgin Mary... Does anyone know the one the Irish nuns taught us and I have not heard before or since but it was pretty. Christ who made us Christ who saves us Christ who can all foes defy. He shall triump he shall triumph from his throne on high... And I always thought Faith of our Fathers was Catholic but I guess the Protestants sang it too and actually dibs on the verse where we prayed for our children to be martyrs. I tell you, I can understand how they produce suicide martyrs in other religions....mg |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Haruo Date: 16 Aug 06 - 08:42 PM Yeah, but when we (Protestants) sing "Faith of our fathers" we generally leave out the verse where you pray for Mary to convert England. ;-) Faber was a good versifier, "There's a wideness in God's mercy" etc. Haruo |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Paul Burke Date: 17 Aug 06 - 03:24 AM Hail Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy. Hail our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, Most Gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy towards us, and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed Fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Oh blessed, oh loving, oh sweet Virgin Mary. There. That's 40 years after I realised it was all cod. give me the child until he is seven.... Now the Nicene Creed... (people were burnt for that). |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 17 Aug 06 - 03:49 AM Ah... that brings back memories of the annual singing of 'Paddy's Vest' or 'St Patricks Breastplate' ~ I bind unto myself today, the strong name of the Trinity'... with the middle "break" Christ beside me, Christ before me, Christ behind me... gave a real comfy feeling of actually having Christ with you as a shield and protector, in every thing you said and did. Now THAT is a great hymn! LTS |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Haruo Date: 17 Aug 06 - 04:02 AM For All the Saints (Sine Nomine); have never tried to sing it to Sarum to see if it was a great hymn before Ralph Vaughn Williams got his mitts on it. ... but of course the point of the thread is not merely to recall the great hymns but to elucidate what makes them great ... Haruo |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 17 Aug 06 - 04:46 AM Having been brought up with the RVW version, singing it to any other tune is WIERD! Someone requested it in a service and we didn't have the music so we played what was there.... It completely changed the aspect as focus was on the words more than getting the timing right... Singing songs to a different tune can often bring a whole new twist to the piece, as can singing in a different time sig.. I understand that 'Rubber Ducky' from Sesame Street makes a fantastic "torch" song when done so, and 'How great Thou art' at half speed gives a much more reverent song of praise and thanks. LTS |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: JTT Date: 17 Aug 06 - 05:39 AM If you'd like a good Irish hymn record, get Faith of our Fathers - it has all those old classics. Bring flowers of the fairest, bring blossoms the rarest, in praise of the loveliest flower of the May... |
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Subject: RE: What makes a good hymn? From: Haruo Date: 17 Aug 06 - 05:41 AM And yet sometimes the time sig doesn't materially affect it. "Hail ye sighing sons of sorrow" is no more a great hymn when sung at a normal "Holy Manna" clip than when sung at half staff as the Primitive Baptists are wont. The only reason it's in my hymnal is I think the "expiring insects' cries" (v. 3) are too precious a hymnic phrase to pass up. Haruo |
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