Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafemuddy

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Origins: John Bradlelum / Bradielum / Braddlum

GUEST,Aunt Colleen 12 Aug 06 - 06:03 PM
Susan of DT 12 Aug 06 - 06:15 PM
Peace 12 Aug 06 - 06:19 PM
Helen 12 Aug 06 - 06:34 PM
GUEST 12 Aug 06 - 06:52 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 12 Aug 06 - 07:02 PM
Aunt Colleen 12 Aug 06 - 07:10 PM
Cool Beans 12 Aug 06 - 08:23 PM
Malcolm Douglas 12 Aug 06 - 09:26 PM
open mike 12 Aug 06 - 09:31 PM
GUEST,Jon 12 Aug 06 - 09:40 PM
Aunt Colleen 12 Aug 06 - 10:23 PM
Bob Bolton 12 Aug 06 - 10:40 PM
Malcolm Douglas 12 Aug 06 - 10:55 PM
Aunt Colleen 12 Aug 06 - 11:09 PM
Leadfingers 13 Aug 06 - 09:34 AM
Aunt Colleen 13 Aug 06 - 04:00 PM
Mo the caller 14 Aug 06 - 01:42 AM
Mo the caller 14 Aug 06 - 01:43 AM
Bob Bolton 14 Aug 06 - 02:39 AM
GUEST 03 Apr 14 - 08:52 AM
Steve Gardham 03 Apr 14 - 02:44 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Apr 14 - 03:39 PM
GUEST 04 Apr 14 - 11:46 AM
GUEST,LynnH 04 Apr 14 - 01:18 PM
GUEST 04 Apr 14 - 02:14 PM
Steve Gardham 04 Apr 14 - 03:50 PM
GUEST,Lee 04 Apr 14 - 04:18 PM
Steve Gardham 04 Apr 14 - 04:59 PM
MGM·Lion 04 Apr 14 - 05:06 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:









Subject: Origins: Does anyone else know this song?
From: GUEST,Aunt Colleen
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:03 PM

I am looking for any information on a song called "John Bradlelum" The only recent recording I know of is by the Australian children's group "The Wiggles" on their Toot Toot CD. It's a traditional song but I can't find any information on it. Is it Australian? Scottish? American?

The only thing I could find on line about the song was a reference to a 1930s recording on it titled "Old John Bradelum" (note spelling change). The artist was J.A.H. Whiteley and it was recorded by Great Scott Records.

The song starts...
Number one, Number one know the song has just begun
With a rum tum tattelum
Old John Bradlelum hey what funny folk we be.

Thank you,
Colleen


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Does anyone else know this song?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:15 PM

Sounds related to "This Old Man" in the DT

This old man, number one
He played knick-knack on my thumb
With a knick knack, paddy-whack
Give the dog a bone;
This old man came rolling home.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Does anyone else know this song?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:19 PM

'The brassy "Zing Zing" sounds like a cousin to the Castaways' 1965 garage-rock hit "Liar Liar" while "John Bradlelum" is essentially an Australian folk version of the children's staple "This Old Man." For "Move Your Arms Like Henry," a tribute to Henry the Octopus, Cook peels off some thematic surf-rock guitar licks.'

From the www


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Does anyone else know this song?
From: Helen
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:34 PM

Hi Aunt Colleen,

You could probably ask The Wiggles themselves about where they found the song:
http://www.thewiggles.com.au/contact.html

Also, I noticed on their website that the spelling is John Bradielum:
http://www.thewiggles.com.au/CD/toottoot.html

Helen


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Does anyone else know this song?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:52 PM

Wow. That was some fast replies!

Thanks Helen. I actually DID ask the Wiggles themselves. Well, I asked their manager (producer/director) and he didn't know. I also asked their musical director and he isn't sure either. LOL.

I am still waiting for word from Anthony or Greg Wiggle. Most likely they will have more info but they are touring right now.

Thanks again
Colleen


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Does anyone else know this song?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 07:02 PM

pm Bob Bolton, one of our Australian experts.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Does anyone else know this song?
From: Aunt Colleen
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 07:10 PM

Thank you Q. I did pm Bob.

Colleen


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Does anyone else know this song?
From: Cool Beans
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 08:23 PM

I think I've heard Bram Morrison, of Sharon, Lois & Bram, sing it.
Sharon, Lois & Bram, Canadian folk trio for kids, were the Wiggles of the 1980s.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Does anyone else know this song?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 09:26 PM

See the Veteran Records website for a text from Francis Shergold of Bampton, Oxfordshire, 1987 (learned from his mother); together with a little further information.

See also folkinfo.org for text and tune as published by the BBC in one of their Singing Together books back in 1965:

Ould John Braddlum

Apparently no source was credited. It will have been taken from an earlier publication.

http://www.hatchmere.com/Reg/ offers us a text from Reg Holmes of Norley, Cheshire, learned from his grandfather:

Ould John Braddleum


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Does anyone else know this song?
From: open mike
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 09:31 PM

you wouild be getting a better response if you put the song title in the thread title then people would know which song without opening the htread. good luck and welcome to mudcat..feel free to become a member.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Does anyone else know this song?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 09:40 PM

Have checked the Autumn 1971 Singing Together pamphlet where the song also appears. The acknowledgement for OJB is "I B Cramer & Co Ltd.".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Does anyone else know this song?
From: Aunt Colleen
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 10:23 PM

I can not thank you all enough. You really came through big time. It seems the Wiggles spelled it differently which is why I couldn't find any information.

Thank you for the Welcome too.

Colleen


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Does anyone else know this song?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 10:40 PM

G'day Aunt Colleen,

I only just opened Mudcat a bit earlier this Sunday morning - and I was off to the markets - hoping to find some affordable bananas after most of the Australian crop was destroyed in a tropical hurricane! Your PM didn't give a thread name ... and the song name wasn't in the header, so I couldn't find the thread to see what to search on.

I couldn't find any real Australian background to "John Bradlelum" ... but Malcom Douglas, with his expertise and the resources of the EFDSS, seems to have pinned down its British origins quite well.

The Wiggles all have a good background in classical and traditional music, so I would expect them to work with / rework good traditional models for their children's songs.

Regards,

Bob


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Does anyone else know this song?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 10:55 PM

That was the resources of Google rather than of EFDSS on this occasion (and a creative approach to spelling, which is essential with "traditional" song). No references so far to anything predating the 1930s recording; on the whole I'd expect it to be a "cod rural" stage or music hall song like 'Buttercup Joe', but perhaps others will have better information to add on that score.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Does anyone else know this song?
From: Aunt Colleen
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 11:09 PM

My apologies, Bob, for the confusion, I just stumbled across Mudcats while looking for the song and I don't know my way around here yet.
Thank you so much for your help. I'm a huge fan of the Wiggles' music so I know all about their use of traditional songs.

Malcolm, Thank you thank you thank you! I never would have found this information on my own.

Can I ask what "cod rural" stage means?

Colleen


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Does anyone else know this song?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 09:34 AM

Cod Rural - Commercially written songs for Music Hall or variety theatre based on the Idea of Rural songs !!
I would class people like Adge Cutler (RIP) as a writer of Cod Rural songs !


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Does anyone else know this song?
From: Aunt Colleen
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 04:00 PM

Thanks Leadfingers for the explaination.

Colleen


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Does anyone else know this song?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 01:42 AM

I can remember having it sung to me in the forties in my London childhood


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Does anyone else know this song?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 01:43 AM

Not having the name of the song in the thread title makes some people open it to see if they do!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: Does anyone else know this song?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 02:39 AM

G'day Mo,

In my case, I had a PM from Colleen ... but no clue as to what thread to open ... Anyway, Malcolm (and the Mudcat resource!) did a great job!

Regards,

Bob


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: John Bradlelum / Bradielum / Braddlum
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 08:52 AM

I came across this thread when I was looking for any trace of this song, prompted by just having watched Rory Stewart's Borderlands. In the programme a Cumbrian sheep farmer is shown counting in the traditional way, starting with Yan Tan Tethera, which is not too far removed from run tum tattelum. The version I know has the words Eh what country folk we be.

So perhaps, it originates from Cumbria.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: John Bradlelum / Bradielum / Braddlum
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 02:44 PM

Written by Lyell Johnston in 1915, and yes, Cumbrian, but nothing to do with sheep counting.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: John Bradlelum / Bradielum / Braddlum
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 03:39 PM

I think I recall this song's being in The New Fellowship Song Book, ed Sir H Walford Davies, late Master of the King's Musick, which I remember singing from at Northampton Town & County School in the early 1940s. Others in the book were HoRo My Nut Brown Maiden, & an Afghan War song called Marching To Candahar, whose tune shares an opening phrase with the RAF March Past, written by none other than that same Walford Davies, so probably borrowed by him for the purpose. I OPd a thread about that march & its relationship to the song a couple of years ago IIRC.

The version in the book certainly had "Hey what country folk" in the chorus.

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: John Bradlelum / Bradielum / Braddlum
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 11:46 AM

The version in my family likewise had "Hey what country folk" in the chorus. And it had Old BILL Braddelum.

Richard


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: John Bradlelum / Bradielum / Braddlum
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 01:18 PM

I seem to recall Muckram Wakes singing a version of this which they, by all accounts, collected from George Fradley of Sudbury, Derbyshire. Have a word with John Tams the next time he crosses your path.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: John Bradlelum / Bradielum / Braddlum
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 02:14 PM

I was interested to read Steve's comment that the song did originate from Cumbria, and whilst the song is not about counting sheep, it is a number song, and I am still inclined to think the 'rum tum tattelam' does relate to the old counting system, of which there are a number of variations, but, of course, we may never know now.

Here are the lyrics of the song I can remember from the 50s:


Number one, number one,
now my song has just begun,
with an rum tum tattelam owd John Bradelam
Oh what country folk we be.

Number two, number two,
some likes a boot and some likes a shoe.
chorus

Number three, number three,
some like coffee and some likes tea.
chorus

Number four, number four,
some likes a gate and some likes a door.
chorus

Number five, number five,
old folks die when they can't stay alive.
chorus

Number six, number six,
old men use crutches when they can't use sticks.
chorus

Number seven, number seven,
when you die you should go to heaven.
chorus

Number eight, number eight,
some likes a door and some likes a gate,
chorus

Number nine, number nine,
some likes beer and some likes wine,
chorus

Number ten, number ten,
when we get to twelve we'll start again,
chorus

Number eleven, number eleven,
much about the same as number seven,
chorus

Number twelve, number twelve,
if you wants anymore, you mun sing it yourselves
chorus


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: John Bradlelum / Bradielum / Braddlum
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 03:50 PM

Apologies for my impatience but I did try to send chapter and verse on the original but the post just went on and on trying to send for many minutes and I gave up in the end.

It was originally published in 'Three Northern County Folk Songs' published by J. B. Cramer & Co, London.

First song is c1720 traditional version from Furness 'Roger's Courtship' with music by LJ.

2. 'Because I were Shy' trad Cumberland song (but I've seen it ascribed somewhere, a local dialect song)

3 'Ould John Braddleum', a reminiscence by Roland Soper. Words and air written in traditional style by LJ.

The original chorus runs 'Wi' a rum-tum-taddle-um, Ould John Braddleum,
Jolly country lads are we.'

The taddleum is just there to rhyme with Braddleum, and I don't think Billy Connolly was counting sheep when he did the Archers Theme... 'Rum-ti-tum-ti-tum-ti-tum, rum-ti-tum..........but I bet he had the odd rum tum in his time.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: John Bradlelum / Bradielum / Braddlum
From: GUEST,Lee
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 04:18 PM

What a wonderful amount of information, Steve. Thank you for your trouble. You are quite right to be skeptical about the counting association I have made. You are probably right. I have, perhaps, an excessive interest in the etymology of words. (By chance, there is another thread about the "Yan Tan Tethera" counting on this website.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: John Bradlelum / Bradielum / Braddlum
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 04:59 PM

No problem. I'm also somewhat obsessive about etymology as well. You might be interested to know that there are at least two songs that use the old counting method as a chorus, both by more recent folk singers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Origins: John Bradlelum / Bradielum / Braddlum
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 05:06 PM

I remember 2nd verse in that Walford Davies songbook as

"Some likes boots but gi'e I a shoe".

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 17 June 8:29 PM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.