Tech: 120 bass accordions

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 08:57 PM

"I'd ask the bugger how his children were conceived"

You should watch the movie Barbarella - I can never hear ideas like that without being unable to smile now...

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Greg B
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 05:33 PM

>In 10 years computers will be able to use a combination of artificial
>intelligence and massed data from the internet to generate music better
>than human musicians.

I'd ask the bugger how his children were conceived :-)

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Andy Next Tune
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 08:59 AM

Just picked up this thread and the sub-discussion in the middle of this month about small accordions with melodeon basses.

I have sitting in a box in a cupboard an old Hohner 'Student' accordion, think that's what is called - haven't opened the box for a while! It is white pearloid and exactly the same size as a H. Pokerwork melodeon. It has eight bass buttons, however whilst they look like a melodeon's basses, they play the same note on both push and pull.

Originally I had planned to sacrifice it to give my Pokerwork a new look, but the project never got onto the drawing board, let alone off it!

Keep meaning to eBay it to help feed the MAD (Dazbo will understand!).

Andy

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 08:36 AM

G'day Foolestroupe & Rowan (and Uncle Tom Cobbley & all ...),

Of course we all now about those organic factors in our quirky, Olde Worlde music devices ... but the new world has other ideas ...

I was reading the latest issue (September 2006) of Discover ( al light magazine of: "Science, Technology & The Future) and the column of Jaron Lanier (their resident gadfly?) began:

Last week I had a jarring conversation with one of the most Influential figures in Silicon Valley.
Me: I wish more kids were learning to be musicians.
He: In 10 years computers will be able to use a combination of artificial intelligence and massed data from the internet to generate music better than human musicians. We can already use these techniques to choose hit songs more accurately than record executives. Musicianship will be an obsolete profession by the time today's kids grow up. There might be good reasons to teach kids music, but creating a new generation of professional musicians is not one of them.

I won't quote more ... buy the mag ... or check their website: Jaron's World to see what Silicon Valley thinks should replace us!

Excuse me ... I think I'll go listen to my computer synthesise the perfect digital "Duke" Tritton ... ot was that the Cyber-Art Thieme ... ?

Regard(les)s,

Bob

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:44 AM

Join the Club, Rowan!


"Understanding of the constructions of scales is fine and well if you have an understanding of music theory."

The Irish were planning to send a rocket to the sun - They had no scientific training, but were clever enough to realise that the sun was very hot - which is why they intended to send it at night...

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 03:58 AM

Thanks Foolestroup.
A perfect explanation of why the real box ('leather ferret' or 'potato masher') will always beat the digital versions. Now, if only I could extract my digit and master the digital dexterity to do the music properly!

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Ancient Briton
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 03:36 AM

Re Greg Be to B/C boxes and other semitone tunings.

Understanding of the constructions of scales is fine and well if you have an understanding of music theory. To actually play a dance tune effectively on Eb on a B/C box you need to have an embedded muscle memory of the ins and outs and crossovers of the Eb scale. So too for all the other 10 scales apart from B and C major, which as another contributor observed, are relatively intuitive once you've got a basic understanding.   

I've found that learning to play common tunes in obscure keys on the B/C is a great way to improve your dexterity and precision. It doesn't go down well at sessions.

Cheers

AB

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 10:03 PM

Some of the more subtle things about the real boxes vs the electronics copies:

1. the electronics ones 'pinch' only a tiny sample of the real sound of a real box.

2. the electronics ones have a fixed phase of the constantly changing phase of the sound of a real one.

3. the electronic ones have a fixed relationship between the pitches of all the 'reeds', usually set up by direct 2 to 1 octaving - the real ones are often tuned (if they have been set up properly by a competent properly trained mechanic, not a self taught 'know all') in very subtle pitch differences from the theoretical 'correct' pitches, thus the sound is different.

4. the real ones generate a 'chorus effect' - a real 'stereophonic' sound, because of the phase differences between reeds of the 'same' (see 3 above) pitch moving together and apart, as well as the fact that the pitches are nudged lower in the bottom half of the keyboard and higher in the treble. Also, there is a tiny pitch difference between the difference between the various 'octave banks' of reeds in the real boxes - if they haven't been ruined by ignoramuses with 'tuning meters'. Also, like a pipe organ or a choir, the pitches of each reed can subtly drift, causing more delicate phase differences.

5) when 'pulsing' the bellows, and vamping the buttons/keys, you can affect the sound in ways that the electronic ones cannot normally emulate - volume differences between the two sides (most people - including players - are stunned to see this effect!) and pitch differences caused by a non constant volume of air thru the reeds. However, different real boxes are more or less sensitive to some of these 'bellows effects' - one of the reasons why I have more than one instrument. A reed vibrating constantly gives a louder perceived pitch than one that is being pulsed - thus this side sounds louder.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 07:03 PM

Between them, GregB, Foolestroup & Bob have confirmed, with much better detail than I had imagined, many of my gut feelings about the development of piano-keyboarded accordions.

Some 30 years ago, Frank Gallagher (who did a lot of repair and tuning work on concertinas, before he got into harps) from Sydney constructed a primitive but effective tuning device from spare electronics bits he had around his workshop. At one stage he realised he had the carcase of an English concer and most of the electronics of an electric organ. So he combined them into a fully electronic concertina that sounded like a very small Wurlitzer. [You'll note I'm eschewing all value judgements so far.]

While I wasn't very keen on the tone I was interested in the concept but, as an Anglo player with limited ability to transpose, spent a little time dreaming of such an electronic instrument with logic gates to detect which way the wind was blowing (through the reed pans, folks!) and its velocity. I reckoned the output of such an electronic Anglo could be fed through an array of foot pedals (much beloved of guitarists in rock groups) which could allow me to instantly transpose keys without having to change fingering.

You'll be greatly relieved to know that the concept never got past the dream stage. This was in the days when I also played lagerphone and the fans of Kiss wanted me to fit that out with flashing LEDs & sparklers. No way!

While I agree that the innards of bellows-powered free reed instruments are definitely something out of the Industrial Age, the archaeologist in me would lament the replacement of them by cybernetic equivalents. As has been pointed out, that has started already; the Darleks are there but real free reeds will survive because of their appealing idiosynchracies (sorry).

And I did try to get the free bass aspect up.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Greg B
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 10:40 AM

I'd agree that in going from a keyboard to buttons getting
used to the diatonic thing "lack of all notes" was rather
difficult. Given the kind of music I chose to play, it wasn't
TOO big a problem, but quite an inconvenience when it came to
playing in odd keys, or ones for which I didn't happen to bring an instrument.

That's something I hope having a Streb MIDI melodeon will
help solve one day (see above).

Another tough thing is not having the notes you DO have
available without a simultaneous action of both right
hand and left arm. I think doubling on stringed instruments,
where every note is a combination of fret and pluck may
have helped. What helps even more is to (on multi-row
instruments) learn to row-cross. In more than half the
cases when playing on the 'home' row of either D(Em) or
G, the note I need if not available on the 'home' row is
readily available on the other row.

That's just kind of a case of 'knowing your scales.'

As with the Stradella system, knowledge of music theory
helps, especially when playing multi-row boxes. If you're
tuned in fourths (D/G, G/C, A/D, Bb/Eb) everything is built
on the 'circle of fifths' and the machine is really a 1/4/5
machine. And of course the relative minor of the inner row
is 'homed' on the draw (versus the press) on the outer row.
No, really. It works. Very well.

Same with playing an instrument tuned 'Irish' style, as
a B/C or C#/D or D/D#, or C#/D/D#. You need to understand
how scales are formed as a combination of naturals and
accidentals and how the notes of a particular scale will
be found on your particular 'system.' In these tunings,
the instrument is primarily a melody instrument, as fits
much of the music they are used for, as the stock basses
are nearly useless and even 'custom' arrangements such as
the McComisky system are of limited use.

The same applies, of course, to the Anglo concertina.

I'm surprised nobody has brought up any of the 'free bass'
systems which were somewhat popular a few years back. They
look like Stradella, but they don't make any chords by
themselves!

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Greg B
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 10:22 AM

Already been done, PeterT. Synth accordions have been around for
at least two decades now.

Latest versions are MIDI instruments.

There's even a MIDI melodeon which is catching on, called
the 'Streb'

At the same time, there is still something to be said for
all that vibrating metal and rushing air. Even with all the
synth piano accordions, when you see an accordion in a rock-and-roll
band, it's just about always an 'organic' one.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Peter T.
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 10:14 AM

What I don't understand is why, in this age of electronics, they don't get rid of all the internal parts of a piano accordion, thus making it very light; and more importantly, giving it all the alternatives you can get with an electronic keyboard.   AND IT WOULD BE CHEAP!

The insides of an accordion are like something out of day one of the Industrial Revolution.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,squeezeme
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 06:37 AM

Quote, Bob, (Now, where did I leave that jar of Gingko Biloba ... and what was I taking it for ... ?)

Easy! Open the fridge door! Then all you have to decide is whether you were taking it out or putting it back....   :-)

MC

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 06:31 AM

G'day Foolestroupe,

I have seen images of such accordions ... possibly rather obscure Scandanavian variants of the "chromatica" or Continental Chromatic (button) Accordion. It seems as if the "piano keys" are part of the multi-row button key array ... but I never saw any tuning diagram.

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 06:26 AM

"have small rectangular keys, rather than buttons ... looking like small piano keys"

It's interesting that I have seen (pictures of) accordions with Stradella bass that have 'pseudo keyboards' which look like piano keyboards but are actually 'button box' layouts - they are given away by the fact that the black keys are in between every white note, and not the normal 2 - 3 - 2 - 3 spacing.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 04:00 AM

G'day,

squeezeme: In writing:

"Hmmm ... I should go and look at the reference sites before relying on what I laughingly call my memory!"

I wasn't fending off any perceived criticism from you ... just telling myself that I need to be more careful with details (as well as "dates" and "facts" long-held in the alleged study of old concertinas! (Now, where did I leave that jar of Gingko Biloba ... and what was I taking it for ... ?)

I glossed the PICA article, late last night, but it warrants more deliberate reading. It really does upset a lot of misconceptions that are bandied back and forth between owners who perceive their concertina to be handed down from Mt Sinai ... while your concertina is merely the work of the devil incarnate... I was picking up some of this from the concertina.com (Concertina Library) site, but the PICA article has well researched property documentation - as just as one example - that clears up lots of details.

Foolestroupe: "Because the buttons were easier to build, until someone realised that the keyboard would be easier to play?" Interestingly, The Chambers Concertina and related instrument collection (found at The Concertina Library) has images of an early Daniam-made accordion (the ancestral button accordion) and another near-contemporary Viennese accordion - and both have small rectangular keys, rather than buttons ... looking like small piano keys, but lacking "black notes". I suspect the shift to buttons for the diatonic accordion ... and then for its development into Uhlig's Konzertina ... had more to do with fitting the best keying layout into the least possible space ... and, maybe, the Germans were looking carefully at early the London-made concertinas that Wheatstone was still developing.

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,squeezeme
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 02:45 AM

G'day Bob,
I think you may have missed the point I was making in my earlier post; it wasn't your memory (or mathematical skills) that were in question. In fact, I didn't even notice the "incorrect" date you quoted :-(

"....in his own right..." needs defining.

Did you read the PICA article? Certainly dispelled some of my misconceptions!

MC (in totally off-topic mode; sorry!)

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 07:58 PM

"I tell people that 'the button accordion was the Casio keyboard of the late 1800's.' "

I'll go along with that, and with much of your argument, especially portability, 'much less to go wrong', and 1st use by 'untrained musicians'; the bulk of trained musos at certain times in history were 'keyboard trained'. Also piano accordions, from what Bob Bolton intimated to me, were far more expensive, thus also economically and culturally restricting their market. Also, you could get a 'usable-muso' capability (with either button or piano box) much faster than with a violin, etc.


"It tends to put the player in the key intended by the makers and coordination of the left and right hands is nearly automatic, once one figures things out."

Yes - But I have never been able to be comfortable on a harmonica, the lack of 'all the notes' is the reason. And as for the chromatic, that's even harder for me...


"I think the piano accordion is initially 'easier' for a 'trained musician''

It's 'dead easy' for a keyboard player, and the more music theory you have on chords, scales, etc, the easier the Stradella system (one of two technical difference from a piano!) is to pick up.

If you have any pipe organ (or wind pedal organ) experience, the free reed accordion is VERY similar, and VERY different to a piano, so the bellows concepts (the other technical difference) have mostly been covered, you just need the ability to physically control it (which is also muscular training!).


'but for traditional or folk music any initial advantage disappears once a rather quick understanding of the diatonic system is impressed into the neurons."

For some people.

"The piano accordion appeals intellectually; viscerally, buttons perhaps work better."

For some people.


"120-bass piano accordion and managing all of that weight and size"

Which is why I have several instruments - I play more of the 'fast and interesting rhythm' stuff on the 'baby boxes' - you don't need 120 bass buttons for much music (bass, major, and sometimes minor will cover most 'folk & popular music' - counterbass can also give you easier bass runs for some music styles, but I can live without it) it merely gives you an 'any key versatile' instrument in one box, instead of several. The fairly common seen 7th is not always essential, especially if playing ensemble, as the 7th is usually being played somewhere in the melody by somebody anyway ...


One of the other points of 'buttons vs keyboard' - once you have 'all the notes' laid out and playable in both directions (any other setup would be 'illogical' with a keyboard!), you sense a NEED for the bass side to do the same.


"Even for someone trained on piano, the size of the keys makes for fingering anomalies. "

My boxes have about 4 different sizes of piano accordion keyboard spacings (the miniatures, while being lighter, do have this drawback) - this has never worried me, as many 'electronic keyboards', especially cheapies, are of different key sizes - I just need to keep a vague visual contact with the keyboard when changing instruments to avoid such hassles.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 07:50 PM

"I tell people that 'the button accordion was the Casio keyboard
of the late 1800's.' "

I'll go along with that, and with much of your argument, especially portability, 'much less to go wrong', and 1st use by 'untrained musicians'; the bulk of trained musos at certain times in history were 'keyboard trained'. Also piano accordions, from what Bob Bolton intimated to me, were far more expensive, thus also economically and culturally restricting their market. Also, you could get a 'usable-muso' capability (with either button or piano box) much faster than with a violin, etc.


"It tends to put the player in the key intended by the makers and coordination of the left and right hands is nearly automatic, once one figures things out."

Yes - But I have never been able to be comfortable on a harmonica, the lack of 'all the notes' is the reason. And as for the chromatic, that's even harder for me...


"I think the piano accordion is initially 'easier' for a 'trained
musician''

It's 'dead easy' for a keyboard player, and the more music theory you have on chords, scales, etc, the easier the Stradella system (one of two technical difference from a piano!) is to pick up.

If you have any pipe organ (or wind pedal organ) experience, the free reed accordion is VERY similar, and VERY different to a piano, so the bellows concepts (the other technical difference) have mostly been covered, you just need the ability to physically control it (which is also muscular training!).


'but for traditional or folk music any initial advantage disappears once a rather quick understanding of the diatonic system is impressed into the neurons."

For some people.

"The piano accordion appeals intellectually; viscerally, buttons perhaps work better."

For some people.


"120-bass piano accordion and managing all of that weight and size"

Which is why I have several instruments - I play more of the 'fast and interesting rhythm' stuff on the 'baby boxes' - you don't need 120 bass buttons for much music (bass major, and sometimes minor will cover most 'folk & popular music') it merely gives you an 'any key versatile' instrument in one box, instead of several.


One of the other points of 'buttons vs keyboard' - once you have 'all the notes' laid out and playable in both directions (any other setup would be 'illogical' with a keyboard!), you sense a NEED for the bass side to do the same.


"Even for someone trained on piano, the size of the keys makes for fingering anomalies. "

My boxes have about 4 different sizes of piano accordion keyboard spacings (the miniatures, while being lighter, do have this drawback) - this has never worried me, as many 'electronic keyboards', especially cheapies, are of different key sizes - I just need to keep a vague visual contact with the keyboard when changing instruments to avoid such hassles.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Greg B
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 10:15 AM

>Because the buttons were easier to build, until someone realised that
>the keyboard would be easier to play?

I believe you're on to one thing, and off on the other...

The button-box is certainly easier to build. It has less than
half the reeds (being diatonic) to get in the space and of
course half the valves, levers, springs, and other fiddly
bits.

However, I don't believe 'easier to play' is the case.

And I've played both.

The button box has an initial learning curve, but like a
harmonica or Anglo concertina renders acceptable folk or
traditional music within a short period of time and with
little knowledge of music theory. It tends to put the
player in the key intended by the makers and coordination
of the left and right hands is nearly automatic, once one
figures things out.

It's light, small, and within its limitations, quite useful.

The piano accordion, even in its simpler forms, is a lot more
intimidating. On average it's three times as heavy and twice
as large as the button box. The untrained musician sees nothing
but a sea of black and white keys on the right and black
buttons on the left. The size and weight of the left side make
bellows-control a whole new issue. It's very easy for everything
to sound like a dirge. Even for someone trained on piano, the
size of the keys makes for fingering anomalies. Unlike the button
box, you have to again start thinking about sharps and flats and
scales, and an octave on that instrument covers about twice
the space versus the four buttons of a button box.

I play a row-crossing technique on a D/G (usually) button box,
and I *still* find that easier (i.e, less effort) than navigating
the keyboards of a 120-bass piano accordion and managing all of
that weight and size.

When I started in squeezeboxes, it was with English concertina
and piano accordion. Being a classically trained pianist who
transitioned into ragtime during the Scott Joplin craze, I thought
that it would be the logical choice.

It wasn't.

I picked up button accordion out of necessity (participation in a
Dickens Faire where piano accordions were considered anachronistic
and thus prohibited) and being forced to figure out the D/G box
ranks as one of the best things that ever happened to me musically.

I think the piano accordion is initially 'easier' for a 'trained
musician' but for tranditional or folk music any initial advantage
disappears once a rather quick understanding of the diatonic system
is impressed into the neurons. The piano accordion appeals
intellectually; viscerally, buttons perhaps work better.

Now for the sailor picking something up to take to sea in order
to make some noise, the button box was just the thing. Very
easy to learn to honk out tunes, much less to go wrong, and
much easier to store under (or in) your bunk.

I tell people that 'the button accordion was the Casio keyboard
of the late 1800's.'

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 06:58 AM

G'day squeezeme and Rowan,

Hmmm ... I should go and look at the reference sites before relying on what I laughingly call my memory!

I slipped a decade in Lachenal's move to producing in his own right ... it was in 1858 - after the expiry of Wheatstone's 1844 patent.

Bob Gaskin's Concertina Library (www.concertina.com) has an account of a fascinating English collection of early concertinas ... and that includes an 1835 English-made copy, from Bath, of a really early style of Uhlig German Konzertina ... from only a year before - so the accordion-derived diatonic concertina was known ... and being experimented upon ... from the first year Wheatstone sold one of his English concertinas.

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,squeezeme
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 06:20 AM

Bob (and Rowan), if you have not already seen this site, well worth a look, http://www.concertina.org/pica/index.htm , left of page click on PICA, then Contents 1/2004 to find Steve Chambers' article on the Louis Lachenal. Some recent research would seem to re-define the relationship between Wheatstone and Lachenal.

MC

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 06:00 AM

G'day,
GregB The Itinerari d'Immagini book (which, I forgot to mention, is calle Le Fisarmonische ~ Italian for "The Accordion") has a Mariano Dallape piano-key accordion with 3½ octaves of treble and 112 'Stradella' basses in 7 rows of 16. The museum dates it as "1890 circa" and states that it is "one of the earliest piano-accordions".

However, much earlier than that have a French Busson 'Harmoniflute' from 1855 - 3 2/3 octaves of treble keys - but no bass.

As I said above, the Stradella bass system "finally perfected the French initiative of applying a piano keyboard to the right hand of early accordions" ... and I haven't come across anyone calling it "the San Fransico bass system"! Given the fact that 19th century America was built on systematic and blatant patent and copyright theft ... we may need to question how the Columbo Accordion Co. defines invention.

Rowan: Lachenal hardly had to develop anything to "avoid" Wheatstone's patents ... he had developed all the manufacturing tooling for Wheatstone ... for both the English system and German / Anglo-German / Anglo-chromatic instruments Wheatstones produced before, at the expiry of Wheatstone's 14-year patent, setting up his own business, which differed mainly in the degree to which he used cottage-workers, on the Victorian "Draw and (de)Liver" system to make up components that were then graded and assembled in his factory.

Uhlig's German concertina system was "Anglicised" into "Wheatstone's" hexagonal body by Jones ... in the early 1840s ... but there were already nicely "London-made" 'German concertinas' built in the earlier German rectangular form ... and with more German-style wooden keywork and long plates of reeds... by quite good makers like Henry Harley ... around 1840. These are what popularised the simple and powerful diatonic form and laid the groundwork for Jones / Lachenal and Wheatstone's Anglos.

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 08:23 PM

Because the buttons were easier to build, until someone realised that the keyboard would be easier to play?

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 06:26 PM

GregB reminded me of a conundrum that I've long thought about but never had the time to really explore. I play concertina and melodeon and am aware of the origins of the concertina. It struck me as odd but understandable that Wheatstone developed a unique keyboard layout for his Symphonium and then his original concertina. It's also understandable that Lachenal avoided patent legalities by modifying melodeon layout for his original (but later) concertina keyboard.

Given that what we now call the piano keyboard predated all the bellows-powered free reed instruments by some centuries, why did it take them so long to get a piano keyboard version popularised. I know piano keyboards appeared on variously named bellows powered lap organs prior to Queen Vi' shuffling off the mortal coil (1901) but you'd reckon the layout for an accordion type of instrument would have been first cab off the rank. Why not?

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Greg B
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 10:53 AM

San Franciscans like to claim that the piano accordion was
actually developed by their own Columbo Accordion Co. and
first exhibited at the 1898 San Francisco Exposition. I
think it was probably more complex and collaborative than
that, but I do believe the date of inception is probably
pretty close.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 09:51 AM

Which reminds me, I was going to say that I have seen a similar box, referred to before, but with the 12 buttons larger, and not arranged in 'Stradella' layout, but in 'Melodeon' layout, ie, not staggered, but lined up straight, not offset, in 2 rows.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 09:50 AM

Which reminds me, I was going to say that I have a similar box, referred to before, but with the 12 buttons larger, and not arranged in 'Stradella' layout, but in 'Melodeon' layout, ie, not staggered, but lined up straight, not offset, in 2 rows.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 09:45 AM

Foolestroupe,

That'll teach me not to preview the post. I meant to say that that the parts used then are not compatible with their modern, "standardised" counterparts. And yes, they could have done it but as you said - it will cost. Still it's a nice momento of my dad, even if I never heard him play it.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 08:29 AM

Nothing of that age uses 'standard parts' - and whover told you that is probably only buying their parts from Exclesoir, or Hammond, or ....


a real 'fixer' will make or modify parts - but it will cost...

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 06:18 AM

Two photos of my dad's 8 bass piano accordion. Although it works it's leaky and not in tune. I enquired about getting it restored but it seems the parts used are no longer standard:-(

Accordion

Insides

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:51 PM

My little red 32 bass Settimo Soprani is wonderful, but annoying - I would happily trade the '7th' row for a contrabass row. My black 48 bass Settimo Soprani is a 4x12 - maj, min, and 2 bass rows, but is bigger, heavier, and red ones sound better!

:-)

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Ancient Briton
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 12:51 PM

Bob and Dazbo - thanks for all that information.

I bought my wife a little Hohner 1928 *white/stylised blue flowers* 2-reed 2-octave 12 bass piano accordion last year - all it needed was a few valves replacing and it plays fine. The bellows, keyboard and body are all in near-new condition. The basses are conventional 12-bass piano accordion - major chords and tonic for Bb F C G D and A. The piano keys are just a bit slimmer and taller than the ones on her 1950's 12-bass Bell "working" accordion. I think it's a little jewel.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,squeezeme
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:59 AM

Foolestroupe and Bob, yes I recall Polly's little decorative 1920s white Hohner piano accordion, which she has apparently now sold. A 2 reed, 2 octave treble, C to C, and 8 "mushroom" buttons on the bass, giving F, C, G and D notes and majors, same note push and pull, though construction and tone definitely owed more to melodeon than piano-accordion technology.

I've seen this same model on eBay from time to time; I think they made quite a lot of them.

Sorry, what was the question? ;-)

MC

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:05 AM

There are a few manufacturers still in Stradella and there are a lot still in Castelfidardo. I was there last year and they're all over the town. Some are big names (Dino Baffetti, Paolo Soprani etc) but there are lots of small manufacturers too, many of whom don't seem to have a web presence.

I've got my father's 8 bass piano accordion (Foulestroop, I'd forgotten we'd discussed this before) I think it is just pre or post WW2. If I remember I'll try and get a couple of photos up for you to look at. The basses from memory are F, C, G and D and the major chord.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 04:46 AM

G'day Ancient Briton,

I have an interesting small book, published by Itinerari d'Immagini, Milano, in 1987- constituting the catalogue of Accordions, in the MUSEO miscellaneo GALBIATI, Brugherio. This covers English & German concertinas and bandonions, as well as accordion-type instruments from Germany, France, Austria and ... mostly ... Italy. The instruments are mainly from small masters - not big factories (although both Settimio and Paolo Soprani are well-represented).

One maker I was recently interested to see represented by a 3-row beautiful diatonic played by a Filipino in Australia's Darwin, during the Depression era - and who is well represented in the book is Mariano Dallape & Figlio ... of Stradella!

I think that, like car makers of the 20th century, the factories and production lines pushed out the master craftsmen of earlier, developmental times ... and the Castefidardo region's factories seem to have survived until recent times ... maybe the region's good Catholic image as "defenders of the Papal states (hence "Castelfidardo") served them well in the marketplace!

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Ancient Briton
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:49 AM

Thanks for that Bob.

I've seen a lot of propaganda for Castelfidardo which I think is near Ancona in the NE of the country, but never heard of Stradella the town.

Do any current accordion "names" originate from Stradella?

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 08:25 PM

G'dayGUEST,Ancient Briton,

Stradella is a town in the north-west of Italy ... and a noted early centre of accordion making. I presume that the system (which finally perfected the French initiative of applying a piano keyboard to the right hand of early accordions) was worked out by craft-makers in Stradella.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Ancient Briton
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 08:41 AM

I've repaired a few 120 stradella bass systems. They're amazing pieces of work and the mender's equivalent of the Times crossword. Does anyone know who invented them? Perhaps Mr Stradella?

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 07:31 AM

G'day,

Lester: I'm sure that - sometime far enough back - Jimmy Shand may have played a B/C/C# with only 48 Stradella basses ... but successive promotional items put out by Hohner seemed to showed the left-hand growing at a positively cancerous rate!

I think the final Shand model was the Shand Morino with 46 treble keys (12 more than this diagram) and 117 basses (61 more than this diagram)!

Foolestroupe: You are, almost certainly, right about Polly's little piano accordion. I'm not sure of the exact placement of the range, but it was a bass note and chord system ... and it did give a simple major accompaniment in the keys around the C / C / F set (... more likely to have had a Bb end ... if it was intended for use in Europe ... ?).

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Lester
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 08:32 AM

The Shand B/C/C# bass end looks like
this, courtesy of melodeon.net

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 08:22 AM

Most probably bass & treble for F C G D A and either Bb or B.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 04:10 AM

G'day Tootler,

"... I do not know exactly what I saw, though it was a Hohner, had what looked like about a 2.5 octave piano keyboard (it was slightly larger than my Pockerwork melodeon) and the bass buttons were about the same size as melodeon bass buttons and arranged in two parallel rows like a melodeon."

I can remember Polly Garland (English-born, now Australian-resident) player of almost anything that produces a tune - having a pretty little old Hohner - in what looked like the classic pokerwork body, but in white paint with delicate flower patterns - with a small "piano key" right hand and 12 bass buttons arranged as the core of a "Stradella Bass" system.

I would presume that it was constructed as a 'children's model' ... as a starting point from which the child would advance to larger, more full piano accordion systems. It could have come from any time between the turn of the 20th century and World War 2.

Occasional Mudcatter "Squeezeme" would probably have worked on the instrument and could correct my passing impression.

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 07:37 PM

Having a melodeon bass system with a piano keyboard would not have been a great restriction, if the then current 'tradition' was to only play in certain restricted keys, especially if playing with, or in the style of other instrumentations.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Tootler
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 11:41 AM

To respond to the replies to my post I do not know exactly what I saw, though it was a Hohner, had what looked like about a 2.5 octave piano keyboard (it was slightly larger than my Pockerwork melodeon) and the bass buttons were about the same size as melodeon bass buttons and arranged in two parallel rows like a melodeon. From the design, I would guess it was quite an old instrument.

Unfortunately, I did not get a chance to ask the owner about it.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 10:06 AM

Thanks for all these replies. I got the impression from the german site that the G buttons on the outside of the bass did not produce the same G chords as the internal G buttons.

IIRC some of the 3 row hohners built as BCC# boxes did have 12 melodeon basses not 12 stradella basses.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 08:42 AM

Another large-button bass system is this accordion equivalent of the duet concertina:

Harmoneon page (in French)

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 07:06 AM

Seen large (half inch or larger) buttons on some old 'few-bass' systems.

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 06:00 AM

How delightful to get an accordion thread to 20 posts without the dazzling wit of the non cognoscenti! Long may it continue.

Tootler, are you sure what you saw wasn't a 12 bass Stradella system? It's just that it would confuse my admittedly challenged frontal lobes to drive on the right for the treble and the left for the basses. In other words, you'd seem to lose all the advantages of the Kirkpatrick/Shand model, and gain all the disdvantages of the limitation of the diatonic bass end?

Subject: RE: Tech: 120 bass accordions
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 08:28 PM

There is also the Belgian bass system (which my Maugein C-system accordion has). There are six rows: minor-third counterbass, major-third counterbass, fundamental bass, major triad, minor triad, and diminished triad. No sevenths, you make them by combining a single note with a diminished triad. The buttons line up horizontally rather than falling along diagonals as in the Italian systems.