BS: Arguments against racial profiling

Subject: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: DougR
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 02:47 PM

I don't believe there has been a single instance of a terrorist attack being led by a 80 year old non-muslim grandmother. If whatever legal actions were taken to permit racial profiling at airports, train stations, bus stations, etc., what are your arguments against it?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: Scoville
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 02:48 PM

How long have you got?

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: DougR
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 03:10 PM

Oh I'm retired, Scoville, so I've got LOTS of time.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: Scoville
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 03:31 PM

Sorry, this irritates me so much I hardly know where to begin. Unfortunately, I'm not retired so I don't have time to make this as coherent as I'd like.

Well, apart from what you already pointed out about the lack of elderly non-Muslim grandmothers in terrorist attacks, how about the multiple instances in history in which racially-profiled groups have faced discrimination that came essentially to naught? Asian-Americans during WWII (even if they weren't Japanese). German-Americans, like my great-grandfather, during WWI and WWII? And yet there were few instances of treason. The fact that just because someone is a follower of a given religion or has a given ethnic background doesn't mean the identify with any other country more than the U.S. (I have a German surname and some German ancestry but I'm not German. I don't speak German and I don't identify myself as a German national. I'm American. Third generation plus. My religion originated in England but I am not British.) Some of us were dumb enough to come here thinking it would allow us to preserve our freedom of religion because we disagreed with the stances of our native countries. I wish George W. knew that.

Appearances can be deceiving, so what exactly does 'racial profiling' involve, and how can it be applied effectively? I had a Jordanian-American coworker who looked more "white" than I do, and I look pretty damned white. My best friend is African/Mexican/white but could be taken for Middle Eastern. Another friend is Mexican/German but also could be taken for Middle Eastern. Racially profiling any of them would be a waste of time, and there are a whole lot of people in the world who are equally ambiguous in appearance.

I attend church with a naturalized American of Palestinian origin. She has an Arabic name and speaks Arabic but has never been Muslim, and neither were her parents or grandparents. They were all Christian pacifists. Nevertheless, she's been hassled because of her "ethnic" appearance (which is a stupid term--everybody looks like SOME ethnicity), name, and accent. Because of course a terrorist wouldn't tell you that he or she was a terrorist, right?

On the other hand, almost all of our friends with Arabic-sounding names have gotten recruiting letters seeking their help as translators. If the government thinks they're a bunch of terrorists, why are they sending them chain letters?

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: Alba
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 03:32 PM

Might as well demand that ALL Muslims sew a patch on their clothes that symbolizes their Faith then we will know who is who, better still have them do this then move them all into one contained area so we know where they are at all times.
History shows that this tactic of racial profiling worked for the Nazis and their persecution of those of the Jewish Faith.
or
What about the suggestion offered on Fox News! Muslim only airlines...!

Yeah an 80 year old Grandmother may not pose a threat but how would we spot the Timothy McVeigh's of the World?
mmm, that might be a problem huh.

By the tone of your post Doug I gather you think Racial profiling is a sound idea?

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 04:37 PM

If you want to racial profile you can start with rednecked white boys who believe in White Supremacy and extreme patriarchy and would like to round up anyone different from them, kill them or put them in camps and we're talking "fellow Americans" here not someone from a "scary" country. Maybe you should join one of their enclaves, Doug.

Scoville and Alba, thanks. Well said.

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 04:41 PM

"Arguments against racial profiling"

The arguments against are obvious. I'd be more interested to hear the arguments FOR racial profiling. It's seldom we read that on this forum (by people who have names we've come to know) because racial profiling is racist, and people do not like to be perceived that way by their peers because they know it's wrong. So, ball back to you (FIFTEEN LOVE).

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: jeffp
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 04:53 PM

First, I would suggest that the combatants agree on a definition of "racial profiling."

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 04:56 PM

Making assumptions about folks based on their ethnic origins?

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 05:02 PM

from "Conan the Magnificemt" - "too many beards and turbans."

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: kendall
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 07:25 PM

As the Israeli defense minister said, the safest airline is EL Al and the reason is, in America you look for nail clippers. We look for terrorists.
Now, what do you suppose he meant by that?

Some time ago, I believe it was Jesse Jackson, who was walking down an empty street, and he heard foot steps behind him. It made him nervous, and when he turned to see, it was a white man, he was relieved. Now, what do you suppose he meant by that?

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: DougR
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 07:39 PM

Kat: I didn't propose racial profiling. Nor did I introduce the theme to provoke a fight. Racial profiling has been suggested by some (or at least one) member of congress, and I thought it might be possible to discuss the subject without rancor. I suppose not. An equally interesting discussion could be held, as someone above suggested, were the title of the thread: Are there good reasons FOR racial profiling. Could such a discussion be held without rancor? I doubt it.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 07:46 PM

Doug - My concern about racial profiling is that if we settle for it then "those" people will be the only ones the authorities will look for. A lot of other potentially dangerious folks might be ignored because they don't fit the profile. As far as I'm concerned - everyone boarding a plane should be considered a suspect. Myself included.

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 07:58 PM

Excellent post as always peace.
All of us could be liable to racist attitudes. We need to have our voices heard and need to start challenging sexism, anti-gay prejudice and racism in our own daily lives. We have to live our personal lives by practising our beliefs and challenging prejudice wherever we find it.

But we also need to demand greater political action against racism and so we should be standing shoulder to shoulder with all those under attack from the low life reactionary creeps. Government could do a lot more such as saying we are looking at the actions of individuals regarding attacks against our country. Instead tonight on the BBC news a reporter said the suspects being held in London seem to have a lot of support in the Muslim community from what we found on the streets today. Remarks like that don't help, remarks like that print labels.

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 08:08 PM

I have a friend who "looks Arab", but is not. Many generation "Amurikan". He gets the extra inspection constantly when travelling, and it bugs him. Shall I tell him, "geez, sucks to be you, too darn bad you don't have blonde hair and blue eyes also..."?

Some might say that he should just suffer through it as his patriotic duty, and it is worth it if it saves lives. I believe those people might feel differently if it was them. And will it really save lives?

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 08:23 PM

In the late 1960s when sky marshalls flew on American planes, I had long hair. (Hell, I had HAIR, and it was 'alf way to me arse'.) I was asked by one of the security people if I had any weapons on me. I told him that that was a stupid question, because if I did I'd say no and if I didn't I'd say no. I suggested he search me. He ignored the pen from my shirt pocket (a pen through the temple or into the eye will kill or debilitate); he ignored the comb from my back pocket (used knife-like it will slit a throat); he ignored the keys from my pocket (used protruding through the fingers of a closed fist they will puncture or blind). Anyway, they let me put all that stuff back in my pockets and board the plane.

You can make something foolproof, but ya can't make something damned-fool proof. (Thank you Mr Twain.)

Oh, yeah. I was 'profiled'. I tend to think it was because I had long hair. Go figger.

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 08:25 PM

PS I noticed that when I had short hair I was never searched again.

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 08:31 PM

well, if you look at photos of the terrorists that were identified, there are physical similarities. Coincidence?

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 08:38 PM

It works two ways. During the Gulf War, members of the SAS were chosen because they could 'pass' as Iraqi amongst the people of Iraq. Terrorists will find people who can 'pass' and use them instead of someone getting on a plane with a turban or AK-47. Imagine the following scenario. An innocent mom is told that if she doesn't carry a small package onto the plane in her carry-on luggage, her children will be killed. Hey, she's gonna carry the package on the plane. Voila, the C4 or Semtex or whatever is now onboard. The only way to ensure security is thorough searches of EVERYone and EVERYone's luggage, regardless of ethnic origin, appearance, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 08:44 PM

Doug, you could have stated that in your first post. It reads like a troll. Yes, we can discuss without rancour, esp. if you are clear about it from the outset.

Would you like to hear, once again, about my son-in-law who scares the security guards at Wal-Mart, who put their hands on their guns when he walks by because he is a BIG, BLACK man? Or, how about my relative who is gay, taunted by punks as he walks what should be a safe city street for all? One night, the chalk outline of a *dead* body was drawn on the sidewalk outside his apt. Or, remember the old "the only good Indian is a dead Indian?"

It doesn't matter what group one might choose to "profile" it will always be wrong, a generalization unworthy of a "democracy."

Mitakuye Oyasin (We are all related)

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 08:51 PM

Scoville's points are well taken. Profiling has its place, when looking for a particular wanted person for whom a description enables the authorities to rule out a lot of persons.

On the terrorism side, since we all are reading the same public information sources, terrorists included, nothing could be more inviting than news that a particular quality eliminated certain persons from inspection.

Don't forget the case where the Palestinian boyfriend kissed his pregnant Irish girlfriend and sent her to board an El Al airplane complete with plastic explosive.

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 09:14 PM

Remember the original reports on the Oklahoma City bombings? - everyone was sure it was done by Arab terrorists, and it turned out to be done by ultra-American Good Ole Boys. Terrorists come in all shapes and sizes.

I do admit that I was perturbed when they gave me and my daughter the deluxe-model search when we cqam back from San Diego on one-way tickets - she was on her way home after falling down three stories, and she was in a wheelchair had metal pins screwed into her forearm with an external metal bar tying them together. It was obvious that she was an invalid and in pain, but they made her go through the whole search.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: kendall
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 09:19 PM

Most of us do not approve of racism in any form, but I guarantee that if push comes to shove, and we get scared enough, all bets will be off and we will do whatever we feel we must do to survive.
If you think that horrible treatment of the Japanese Americans back in WW2 can't happen again, you are deluding yourself. Self preservation is the prime directive.

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 09:43 PM

Ok...here's one who has an opinion ...under his name! (Note...I have stood on a dark street with black SNCC members in Hattieburg, Mississippi and been harassed by white police for trying to help get voters registered! I do NOT like unfair treatment to racial & ethnic minorities!)


"Making assumptions about folks based on their ethnic origins"....well, that's bad thing. But there's a HUGE difference between that (which is WAY too common) and being aware and cautious when around certain types.

   You note, you never see stories in the paper about Poodles or Cocker Spaniels attacking little kids in the street. But we DO profile when Pit Bulls or Dobermans are present. Owners of these dogs will tell you they have had nice pets for years and never had a problem, and no doubt that is true, but most serious attacks come from a narrow group.

Now, to my mind, it doesn't matter WHY we need to be more careful around Pit Bulls...it is just prudent. That doesn't mean we need to lock up all Pit Bulls or forbid people to have them, but the rules MUST be different.

   You see where I'm going...sort of...

Up above, people presented all the standard reasons why we should beware of 'suspecting' people because of some appearance or ethnicity...and I agree with them. Sadly, 'suspecting' often leads to random harassment and worse. (I have read many stories of the outright stupid and hateful treatment of Japanese-Americans during WWII)

What I do NOT understand is why 'prudent' profiling to cope with specific situations should be considered unfair! I would be on the front lines with picket signs if anyone suggested locking up or deporting anyone with Arabic names of features! Good, honest citizens and/or visitors of ANY ethnicity should be treated fairly.....but if almost every known terrorist in both the UK and the US recently has been Arabic/Muslim, it IS 'fair' to ask that group to be patient while we cope with this emergency involving some of their brethren!

Care must be taken at airports and related situations....we are already doing extreme checks on young Muslim men....but we are NOT significantly adding to our safety by doing the same to everyone in line and spending 10s of millions and bogging down the entire transportation system!

The comment from El Al is telling..."You are looking for nail clippers, we are looking for terrorists." I don't suggest that ONLY Arabic/Muslim individuals be 'profiled'...if anyone acts nervous, carries 'unusual' packages, makes remarks, has inconsistent I.D., etc....they should be watched also. There ARE people who are pretty good at guessing where potential problems lie.
   Now, IF an Arabic/Muslim man is given some extra screening and found, as IS usually the case, to be not dangerous, a citizen, not carrying or concealing any dangerous items, he should be allowed to board and be treated with the same decency as any other passenger. I would 'hope' he'd understand why the extra check was prudent, and I hope he would help with the problem by realizing that, if he IS honest and reasonable, tight security is to his benefit also! If 5 Arabic men are screened, and ONE of them turns out to be a problem, the other 4 have benefited just as much as you or I!

I don't ***LIKE*** having to say this shit....I do NOT think all Muslims are dangerous or worthy of my distrust. I look forward to a day when there ARE no ethnic groups with large sub-groups who hate US automatically....or who have reason to!

What I do know is that IF members of a group with known adherents who pose dangers to the public at large are aware that they will be screened more carefully, those bad apples will be less likely to try stunts with household chemicals in drink bottles.

.....it is sad, but Muslims in America are already being harassed and glared at in public in situations where they pose no particular danger. I have only vague ideas how we can reverse this trend where many Muslim kids around the world are being taught that Americans are "Satans" and that you can go to Paradise for killing a couple, but that concept is now common, and all you PC folks who think we are going to cope with it by making everyone in line at the gate throw out their toothpaste and put their shoes thru x-ray had better get a grip on reality!

....Simply put, I do not appreciate lock-step, knee-jerk reactions to <>anything! Every situation has it particular problems, and right now, we have a huge problem with some folks who not only don't like us, but are willing to kill innocents - including others of their own ethnicity - in order to hurt us. This has to be addressed with something other than slogans and pre-digested rules!

and I will be GLAD to read any ideas YOU have to make this easier on all of us!

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 09:48 PM

Everybody wants to go to heaven but . . . .

If EVERYone is not searched, then yer just playing the odds by searching one in three.

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: bobad
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 09:57 PM

"The government is still relying on feel-good methods and ignoring the obvious - profiling passengers works"

The U.S.is the world 's best when it comes to investigating accidents and mishaps, but it is performing rather poorly in trying to prevent terrorist attacks. It must adopt a proactive security system that would save citizens' lives as well as protect infrastructure.

The new Computer Assisted Passenger Prescreening System (CAPPS II) that the Transportation Security Administration (TSA)said it will start using will be based on insufficient background information.It defers to a mistaken notion of political correctness, such as not requesting passengers 'place of birth, for fear of "profiling." Airlines are not allowed to ask for pertinent details, and their staffs have not been instructed to question a passenger's personal behavior or background. Although it may be politically correct, it is difficult to argue that security agents should not pay special attention to passengers born in countries such as Syria, Egypt, Libya, Sudan, Iran, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states, Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Yemen, Morocco, Pakistan, Indonesia and the Philippines - all countries that had and/or continue to support terrorist training. Additionally, CAPPS II will not have access to law enforcement information that would reveal a criminal record. Although they did not have criminal backgrounds, four of the 19 Sept.11 Al-Qaeda homicide hijackers had been on the FBI list as suspected terrorists before they entered the country. Had airlines been given the names of these suspects by the FBI, and instructed their chiefs of security to arrest them, we might have prevented their deadly attacks.

http://www.public-integrity.org/articles/publications35.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 09:57 PM

yeah....that's called a "calculated risk". I am willing to take the chance that the old lady with the knitting bag is not gonna hijack the plane with #8 needles.

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:01 PM

(I am also going to bed now....I am not ignoring your replies)

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:05 PM

Night, Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: jeffp
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:14 PM

We accept prioritization of prevention of mechanical threats, which can be just as deadly.

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: Scoville
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:30 PM

Just because they are also Arabic does not mean they are "some of their brethren"! I'm Irish, too, but I didn't get searched going into London because I might have "brethren" among the IRA. Some of my Arabic friends who have been harassed are generations removed from these "brethren" and have no ties to the Middle East at all, but "patriots" use this idea as an excuse to abuse them. We nearly had to call the police because a man started screaming at my Jordanian-American coworker--whom he didn't even know was Arabic until he saw his name tag--and we were literally afraid the man was going to punch him.

There's a "calculated risk" that the guy next to you on the plane might be a tweaker or a schizophrenic or a disgruntled postal employee, too, but I don't think they profile for any of those.

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 11:11 PM

Tweaker?

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 02:32 AM

There's also the incredible variety of ethnicity so that it is not only 'wrong' to try to act upon stereotype, it is also stupid. In my experience Americans also make these distinctions poorly and clumsily. Therefore, with all sympathy for Joe Offer and his daughter, and the umpteen million times, I, bearded Jewish male that I am, have been taken out and de-booted and scanned ('randomly'), I think overall TIA could be doing worse.

Not long after 9/11 my father and I were taking the off ramp to Logan airport via the long underwater tunnels that lead to the airport, we passed an old van full of bearded turbaned men who were all shouting incomprehensibly at each other and the world. Arabs? Pashtun? Hindi? Sikh? Costume Party?

That tunnel would make a heckuva target, but I did the Jewish equivalent of crossing myself and kept on truckin'.

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 03:31 AM

[Peace] If EVERYone is not searched, then yer just playing the odds by searching one in three.

[BillD] yeah....that's called a "calculated risk". I am willing to take the chance that the old lady with the knitting bag is not gonna hijack the plane with #8 needles.

There is another calculated risk that you need to take into account. The searches are done by or monitored by people, who being human get tired, distracted, bored and make mistakes, especially if they are under constant pressure, as they are now. It is at least a possibility that searching less people would actually improve the effectiveness of the searching and hence make things safer overall, rather than less safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: kendall
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 07:32 AM

A middle age bald white man with a beard robs a bank, the police have a complete description of the suspect. What do they do? Do they go looking for a young black man with an afro hairdo? Of course not!

I work with a young Muslim in the police dept. here, and he is disgusted with the extremists that are giving his religion a bad name.

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 07:39 AM

Racial profiling is both an emotive and an indefinable term, and I don't like it, and wouldn't use it on the indefinable basis alone.
However there is a valid answer to those who complain of harassment and say "Not all Moslems are terrorists" and the answer is, 'At this moment, most terrorists are Moslems' This means that the religious stereotyping is understandable, even if we all know that it is based on a false premise.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 07:56 AM

There is a risk of creating the same situation as exists with the police stop and search powers which lead to innocent young black men being stopped many times where a comparable white man would probably never be stopped in his life. It leads to anger, alienation etc, all of which are factors which drive people more towards extremism, thereby exacerbating the problem.

Also, if racial profiling is too heavily relied on, it may make security less likely to take other factors into account, meaning that non typical terrorists find it easier to get through security. There have been several cases of islamic terrorists being white or afro caribbean in ethnicity. Terrorist groups would soon find ways of exploiting this by choosing people for missions if they look less typically arabic, or have names which are not typically muslim.

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 08:01 AM

Racial profling is a very simple issue to grasp. It means "strip search all nig-nogs and leave us whiteys alone". So they would have missed out on the Oklahoma bombers, but with Bush in charge the survival nazis have got a government doing the bombing for them anyway.

Just lets assume for a moment that all the world's threats come from Muslims. But Muslims aren't only Arabs, or Pakis, there are Turks (who look just like Greeks often as not), Indonesians, Malaysians, Chechens and other Exrusskistanis, not to mention Anglo-Saxons and Africans. Wasn't one of the London suspects originally called Sid Noades or something? So you can't tell a Muslim by looking at them. Sometimes the name might help, even so the London police seem to have thought Mendez to sound like a Jihadi.

So "racially" profile, piss off all the Muslims who didn't support the bombers, give them an obvious strategy to have people travel check- free, and sleep on your flight, perhaps for ever...

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: GUEST,redhorse at work
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 08:16 AM

The real problem with racial profiling is although it makes it more likely that you will catch the offender who fits the stereotype, it makes it less likely that you will catch the offender who doesn't.
Terrorists are not stupid. If we adopted the knee-jerk racial profiling that people seem to be calling for, all we are doing is sending the message "Select someone who doesn't fit the stereotype to be the bomber, and we'll let him on the plane"

nick

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 08:24 AM

Why don't these young blacks and Asians get pissed off at the people of their own race/religion when they commit acts which throw suspicion on their own people?
This I'm afraid is a big part of the problem, no matter how much they abhor the act, they will not help the police catch the perpetrator, this just means more hassle for them surely?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: hilda fish
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 08:38 AM

Here's some interesting stuff - in Texas I was at a Corrective conference where they had been racially profiling a couple of generations of Hispanic and Afro-American men and as a consequence of this racial profiling they targeted the next generation of young men in this area as fulfilling a criminogenic profile and therefore targetted them. Consequently the next generation also ended up, inevitably, in the prison system. This system was suggested for Indigenous people in Australia and New Zealand but hey, it's okay. We're obvious and we're racially profiled in a fairly ad hoc way anyway. And, strangely enough, the black, and the disaffected are more likely to end up in prison anyway. Racial profiling doesn't help that, but racist and discrimination/oppression does. Another story: my friend worked in a specific govt dept that worked at airports and was targetting people of 'Arabic' appearance but because that was a bit of a 'no no' according to our anti'discrimination laws, for each person of 'Arabic' appearance targetted at the airport they also approached a 'white' guy, so that they didn't look like they were racially profiling. Guess what, next time I came through (from Madrid, Spain) I was targetted. Well, I was dark and I suppose of 'Arabic' appearance so watch out all you dark people! Also in landed I was exed with guns pointing and so on - why? 'cos I'm dark and I guess by London standards, Arabic looking and therefore, obviously (d'oh) a terrorist. Racial Profiling is an abhorrent form of racism that should not be accepted by any reasonable person of good will. It has nothing to do with finding terrorists, protecting citizens, or isolating criminals. Hitler did it and so did Pol Pot - there is a list longer than history almost of those who did it and all of them are a listen in what horrors humans can do to each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: hilda fish
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 08:45 AM

Oh dear, I wrote that while 'chatting' to my son in America so grammar and spelling a bit appalling. One obvious correction - "landed" should be London - a couple of 'targets' would be better not existing and the same with an 'anyway' or two. Never mind - hope you get my drift. I think I am very clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 09:31 AM

Giok: Why don't christians get pissed off at the people of their own race/religion when they commit acts (bombing abortion clinics) which throw suspicion on their own people?

Why don't these Northern Irish people get pissed off at the people of their own race/religion (IRA/UDF) when they commit acts which throw suspicion on their own people?

Here's a well written article in The Guardian
by Glenda Jackson about racial profiling.

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: Wesley S
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 09:35 AM

Guest - Who said Christians DON'T get pissed off at abortion clinic bombers?? You're painting with a pretty broad brush. Perhaps that can be called religious profiling?

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 09:38 AM

(maybe that was part of my point.... who says muslims don't get pissed off at muslim terrorists? Have you asked any lately?)

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: Alba
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 09:58 AM

I have and the Muslims I have spoken to are very pissed off Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: Bagpuss
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 10:00 AM

Tell it to Giok, not me...

(BTW I was guest, my cookie vanished and I hadn't noticed)

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 10:26 AM

"Racial profling is a very simple issue to grasp. It means "strip search all nig-nogs and leave us whiteys alone".

no, that is NOT what it means to trained, intelligent screeners. Anyone with that attitude should not be in a position to do security checks! Profiling of any sort should be done with care, compassion and respect, since most who are checked will be shown to be innocent.

Since I went to bed last night, several people have posted red-herring objections to profiling. The Oklahoma City bombers is one such. But yes, even they should have been profiled, and right now, I'm sure that young men who try to buy tons of ammonium nitrate ARE being scrutinized!

The other point is that, regarding airplanes, these latest attempts were to have been suicide bombings. In order to blow up these planes, the bombers planned to die with all the others. We simply almost NEVER see this attitude among any other group except Muslim extremists. Therefore, they had to ride ON the plane and bring the tools of their plot with them! Therefore, extra checks of the luggage and persons of persons of this group would be prudent. But once checks are done, they should be passed, respected and not harassed further! I would even like to see background checks done for Muslim/Arabic folks who travel regularly, and some sort of "cleared" ID issued to reduce future screening hassles.

   I am sorry, but this situation is not equivalent to the stupidity of random, targeted stopping of black men by prejudiced, over-zealous cops! THAT needs to be corrected and controlled.....and all similar profiling based simply on biased whims!

Now, if the situation ever gets worse....with terrorist attacks in this country similar to what has happened in Israel (busses, cafés, etc) I am sure some of you will rethink your opinions about who should be watched more closely.

The long term solution needs to include massive re-education by the Muslim clergy about the concept of direct access to 'Paradise' for blowing up a few random 'enemy'.

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 10:50 AM

It's difficult to put across in print, but I was asking a question, maybe the question mark at the end of the sentence would be a clue. I'm not criticising I'm curious as to what the motives for people's actions are.
I can't understand anyone of any race creed or colour who covers up for a crime because the person who committed it is one of their own, when if that crime was committed by someone else they'd hand them in.
I've known Mothers to turn their sons in, in similar circumstances.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Arguments against racial profiling
From: Bagpuss
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 11:51 AM

It was a question that made an assumption that was not necessarily correct.