english concertina and irish music

Subject: english concetrina and irish music
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 07:44 AM

There are several reasons why the english is suitable for irish music,most fiddle ornamentation can be successfully used on the english. fiddle rolls, fiddle trebles[ four note ornaments in jig time].pipers crans can be done, octave triplets, playing phrases in octaves,my tutor gives examples of this. accordion type ornamentation works well, and a lovely flowing legato stylewhich is still danceable canbe acheieved through use of finger attack.fiddle rolls are particuarly suited to the english but more difficult on the anglo.

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 08:14 AM

But does it do Irish concertina style music?

Subject: RE: english concertina and irish music
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 08:23 AM

You can emulate the "Anglo phrasing" by proper use of the bellows on the English...

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 08:39 AM

Mebbe, but Irish concertina, played across the rows, has a completely different rhythm from English- style anglo.

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 08:48 AM

I'll say it again...

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 09:27 AM

fooles troupe ,do you play the english,.I am sorry but emulating anglo phrasing is not in my opinion correct ,I would rather emulate violin bowing, AND EVEN WITH THAT THERE IS NOT ONE WAY OF DOING IT BUT MANY. the english is the english. the anglo theanglo.why not tell an anglo player to emulate the english , and then there are lots of different anglo phrasings, chris droney is different from noel hill or mary mcnamara.

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: GUEST,Riggy
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 12:54 PM

I stopped playing the Anglo and went back to the English, 'cause Noel Hill told me I was playing the Anglo like an English anyway.
I crossed rows to minimize bellows direction changes. I think the apt analogy is that bellows can be used very much like a bow, and
I personally like legato. Doesn't say much for the 'correctness" of my style on Clare reels or such. Oh well, we do what we do.

Riggy

Subject: RE: english concertina and irish music
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 07:20 PM

"bellows can be used very much like a bow,"

gee I didn't NEED to say it...

"the 'correctness' of my style "

Ah - there's the rub!

but it's called 'interpertation'...


I once was amazed by observing someone who learned from his dad play a 'Classic Piano Accordion Repertoire' on a Button Box - with eyes shut, it was almost impossible to tell - now that's the level of talent and skill I was referring to...

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 05:01 PM

And of course its great for accompanying songs irish or otherwise.

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: Alan Day
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 05:51 PM

I have been listening to a great deal of different players recently of the English System Concertina and the style of play seems to point to technique rather than the construction of the instrument.The system of alternate end playing easily lends itself to a smooth flow of notes in a similar way to Anglo players playing across the rows.
Some of the better English players can make the instrument sound like an Anglo or a Duet.So much so I have had to ask considerable advice as to what instrument is being played.In one case the Wheatstone archives had to be looked up to check what the player had purchased.
I have been surprised and impressed by what can be achieved on an English it is a far better instrument than I ever imagined it could be,having concentrated on the Anglo.
I can see no reason after what I have listened to that Irish music can be played extremely well on an English and the popularity of the Anglo in Ireland may be down to the wonderful old players of the Anglo system, the natural in out bounce of the instrument which can be duplicated with technique on the English.
Many styles of English playing will be represented on English International (3 CD collection) which I hope will be released in
November this year.
Al

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Aug 06 - 06:57 PM

I look forward to its appearance.I thoroughly enjoyed Anglo International.

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 05:00 AM

What a lot of BOLLOX at the end of the day it's a poxy squeeze box - a toy! You mugs couldn't even think about real music with your little heads filled with "anglo english anglo irish" shit

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 07:34 AM

Boxing clever ,anglophilia, little black boxes.Alistair anderson noel hill, lea nicholson, steve turner, dick miles, john kirkpatrick,sara graves ,brian peters ,keith kendrick, dave townsend, all dismissed by guest DB as purveyors of a toy. well its a toy that has given me and alot of other people great pleasure. and has inspired musicians as diverse as paul macartney and rigondi to compose for it.long may people play real music on the concertina, and unreal music too.

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: Alan Day
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 08:07 AM

Thanks for your kind observations DB, shame it is coming out of a different part of your body.
Al

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 08:34 AM

TO GUEST DB, Please enlighten us as to what real music is, and what contribution you have made to it.

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 10:07 AM

Try Bob Marley!

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 12:09 PM

and I suppose you played all the lead guitar solos.you should learn to be more objective,just because you happen to like bob marley , it doesnt mean that other music is not valid, personally I like jazz, classical music, traditional music, gamelan music,I dont like bob marley, but I would not dismiss it.How do you define real music, and can you play or sing anything yourself, before you dismiss other peoples creativity, please let us know your own musical acheivements. or are you just another loud mouthed musical ignoramus.

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: Alan Day
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 07:13 PM

As you have replied DB and not hit and run I will try to address your ignorance of the instrument and some of your comments about it.The concertina is a small instrument, but is far from being a toy.
I play a 38 Key Anglo.Which for this type of Concertina is a different note on the push than on the pull.This means I have available to me 76 notes the equivelant to a small piano.Captain Birdseye plays an English system which is the same note in and out but he has more buttons than I do.The Anglo has the high notes on the right and the low notes on the left,which means that I can play a tune on the right side and play the chords on the left.Many concertina players even when accompanying themselves singing can play the tune and play full chords as well.There is no music that cannot be played on a concertina including that of Bob Marley.
Ragtime,Jazz,Traditional,Classical,Rock,Blue grass,Blues and the list goes on, all have been recorded by concertina players.About three weeks ago I was talking to John Nixon who you will not know DB but he played on a Paul McCartney Album.
Check your facts DB there is a lot more to the Concertina than you think.
Al

Subject: RE: english concertina and irish music
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Aug 06 - 07:41 PM

The trouble with concertinas and piano accordions is often not the lack of music the instrument, it is the lack of music in the players...

:-)

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 05:01 AM

to foulestroupe,that surely is true of all instruments,it is the players who bring the instrument to life. hence seamus ennis s, famous remark about the bodhran ,an instrument best played with a pen knife.
    I once met a couple in a pub who said we bought a guitar for our son for christmas ,but it was no good it wouldnt play,They thought it would play itself, plug it in and electricity will do the rest.
    now I gather foulestroupe is a duet player,So he has the excitng prospect ofgoing where few have gone before with irish music , iwould suggest exploring the octave overlap, for unison double stops etc. As regards the english, I THINK THE UILLEAN PIPES ARE A BIG INFLUENCE ON MY OWN PLAYING ,crans , can be executed fairly easily.the sound of the regulators[often first and fifth of a chord]can be reproduced convincingly,cuts      can be used to help rhythmic emphasis, as well as finger attack. I use bellows emphasis ,but its more like abroken slur on the fiddle than reversing of bellows, Often an extra push in the same direction.I dontthink im alone in this.when ive seen Madeline O Dowd[all ireland champion concertinist on the english],her bellows movement was pretty similar to mine. however I accept that there is more than one way to do something and the important thing is the music at the end and there are lots of different ways to bring concertina music to life.

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 06:35 AM

english concetrina and irish music

wots a concetrina?

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 07:00 AM

its a concertina,There is another technique that I use.The turning of a quaver into two notes.I play the first one short and the second one longer as if I was playing a grace note before the second note ,but the notes are of the same pitch, I do this using two different fingers , and often when the note to follow is on the opposite side [so example] three quavers e a a, e on the left becomes e e followed by a a on the right,or it could be e[quaver]aa.. a more of this in the [concise english concertina tutor] by Dick Miles.Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 07:11 AM

You mean Concetrina wasn't Mozrat's wife?

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 07:54 AM

it was a dyslexic moment,sorry or syorry.

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 09:11 AM

You're right--we shouldn't be so eager to jump on those things.

But it's so much fun--it's really hard to resist.

(And a lot of us don't even try to resist).



Actually this is a great thread--I'm learning a lot.

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: woodsie
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 10:08 AM

Ike and (Concer)Tina Turner were quite good.

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: oggie
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 05:27 PM

Back in the 70's I heard both Alister Anderson's and Noel Hill's first LPs. At the time I played Anglo for Morris and country dancing and thought Ali's playing was great but Noel's was a waste of an anglo, why so little left hand? Now I play Bandoneon which is the best of both worlds, 5 octave range, 63 buttons, and I can play either push/pull or long strings of notes in either direction so long as I can remember the fingering!

Each to their own and now I'm not sure there is a better or correct instrument for any style, it is all down to your preferences and the skill of the player.

All the best

Oggie

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: Alan Day
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 05:57 PM

So little of Noel's recordings have been available for some years ,which is a shame as we have missed the development of his Anglo style, which features a lot more left hand work.He plays a wooden ended Linota and with this farely rare instrument Noel can mimick the Uillean pipes perfectly and with exceptional left hand playing.He has recently released a new album and is featured on the third CD of Anglo International(sorry for yet another plug).
For those of you who are interested the Duet has the same note in and out (push & pull) with the high notes right hand and the low notes left.The English and Duet being the same note in and out makes it more suitable for classical music with accompaniment ,but John Kirkpatrick on the Anglo may dispute that.
Al

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 06:40 PM

the other great advantage of the english concertina is the relative ease of playing octaves ,this of couse can be done and is done by noel hill on the anglo but can involve awkward fingering and difficult cross rowing, and there does seem to be fewer notes [although it is a sound many associate with the anglo ]its done on the anglo than the english. in other words the english has greater scope for producing this sound associated with    anglo concertina irish music, than the anglo.

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: Anglo
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 11:17 PM

I remember reading the liner notes of an old Free Reed english concertina LP, Gordon Cutty I think, who played EC in a dance band in the north of England from the 1920s. He reckoned to play octaves a lot, often playing the violin part of the band's arrangements, because it was so easy on English. Personally I've always found playing octaves on an english very difficult. Maybe because I don't practice scales. It's much easier for me on the anglo, but then I usually play in the keys the instrument was built in.

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 04:29 AM

what i would recommend is taking an easy scale g major    or c major and practising it in octaves,and the take part of the scale lets say g a b then b a g then c b a, abc in crotchets. or perhaps start off just using an octave on a long note.

Subject: RE: english concertina and irish music
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:05 AM

I'll give you the 3 secrets....



Practice! Practice! Practice!

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: Fliss
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:15 AM

Just learning that men can be bitchy too...

I play irish on an english.. I just enjoy and dont analise.

I do like Noel Hill's playing... Lament for Limerick my favourite love the vibrato.... and i can do it a bit with an english, makes the wrists ache tho :-)

Better go and practice then :-)
fliss

Subject: RE: english concertina and irish music
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:31 AM

"don't analise."

Brilliant - but perhaps you originally meant 'analyse'...

Like the way you said it though...

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:48 PM

analise ,does not exist as a word,.
this thread was worth starting, if only for ron davies whos learnt something. EVEN fliss has done some analysis, otherwise he wouldnt have realised that noel hill was using vibrato and decided to emulate him.Finally practise is useful, only if you know how to practise properly, and do it when your not feeling tired,so you get the best out of it.

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: Anglo
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 02:36 PM

Jesus, are we getting all pissy about spelling now? Go through some other Mudcat threads, you'll see far worse than this. When I was a teaching assistant years ago, I was told I couldn't grade on grammar or spelling, cos everyone would fail. I had to divine what they meant from the inclusion of "key words." I have a hard enough time here with people who write in "braid Scots," perhaps I'll soon have to buy a texting dictionary, if there is one, as that becomes more prevalent.

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 02:46 PM

In the words of the immortal jOhn. This is a flok sight, not a spling sight...

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: Fliss
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 02:56 PM

Oi Im a she not an e... Fliss is short for Felicity, which some find a mouthful and try and spell with Ph.
... re spelling - woops... and me a teacher too!

The other english player at the session I go to has learnt Lament for Limerick with all the harmonies, but minus the vibrato, sounds ace. Hairs up the back of the neck stuff.

Im learning Downfall of Paris. The first time I played it in the session one of the banjo players said " no wonder Paris fell", so must practice more!

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 04:43 PM

apologies to fliss, for mistaken gender. to anglo..foOlestroupe was implying that analise meant looking up your arse, that is why I mentioned, that according to the dictionary its NON EXISTENT.
   Analysis is o k it helps you to understand what your doing,but at the end of the day playing with emotion or feeling is something that has to come from within. I could play you an air without any ornamentations or twiddles and just through feeling and dynamics bring it to life[CAPE CLEAR on my c d NAUTICAL AND ]is a good example.I believe ornamentation, came about because musicians had to play the same tune over and over again for a set dance[ lets say The
Blackbird]where a particular tune had to be used, by the third time the tune was played, quite naturally the player starts to put in ornamentation to relieve his boredom .in my opinion although ornamentation is interesting it is secondary to playing with feeling.
    Finally COMHALTAS have a lot to answer for with their obsession with ornamentation in competitions, creating a situation where people over ornament, in the belief that this will win them competitions, sometimes to the point where the tune is unrecognisable.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: Anglo
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 04:57 PM

Ah, a pun. Sorry, I missed it. Must find my humor cap...

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:53 PM

Sigh.... I'm like that, sorry!

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: Fliss
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 06:31 PM

Thanks Cap'n.

Was a Comhaltas member for about 4 years till they put the group insurance up too high. Their trainer tune books and accompanying CDs are very good for beginners. I know the arguement is that they are homogenising tunes... ooh big word, and I looked up the spelling! But every session has its own adaptions to well loved tunes.

Prefer tunes played at a nice pace rather than breakneck speed. The odd thing is the faster they are played the easier I find it is to learn them. Suppose my brain switches off and my fingers take over. Knowing the patterns on the English is certainly a help. I tend to leave the ornamentation to others and just hold notes longer.

Im just so chuffed that I can hold my own in a session.

fxx

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:36 PM

ooooooooooo....

I thought most of the 'fast and furious only' school of players did...

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 05:04 AM

TO FLISS,hope i am not stating the obvious, when you do want to start experimenting with ornamentation rolls etc, i found it useful to slow the tune down for jigs maybe 108,      or slower AND THEN PRACTICE THE SCALE OF G MAJOR IN ROLLS SO G A G FSHARP G,    thenABAGA and so on[theseare fiddle rolls which adapt ideally to the english, or four note twiddles abaa or gagg, or g low dgg[ gives a pipey effect]then gradually speed them up using a metronome.

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 08:27 AM

the fournote twiddles can be counted 1 2and 3.or1and 2 3, the twoand being semi quavers, or fournotes the same beginning of morrisons jig coule be ee e e, bb b b, ee e e, this involves cross fingeringor you could play an e roll, b roll, e roll,, or e ee e, themiddle being two semiquavers . there is more of this in the concise english concertina by dick miles. hope this helps Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 05:10 AM

playing of slow airs can be enhanced by playing silences,deliberately putting in a silence before anote you wish to emphasise,almoast as if it was a grace note.I believe pipers refer to an ornamentation thats a silence as a pat.

Subject: RE: english concertina and irish music
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:41 AM

... when someone plays a tune expressively, with well placed silences, we say that they 'have the tune down pat'...

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 04:35 AM

when playing hornpipes , I borrow a device that micheal coleman the great sligo fiddler used of filling two notes with three particuarly when the interval is a major third b to g, in the middle put an [a]a stepping stone, turning the three into a triplet. I might only do this last time through a tune as it tends to smooth things out and lose the swing that I like in hornpipes. I recommend alistaiar andersons concertina workshop, as well as my own tutor, both available from the button box.Alistairs books has lots of useful information. practising scales legato and staccato,and listening to the sound one produces, my two tutors go into some depth about song ornamentation as well as irish music.

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 04:56 AM

apparently crans and rolls are done differently on the anglo, a d cran on an anglo is sometimes played low d high d b a low d,acoording to seamus ennis [uilleann piper]the single cran can be cut in several differrent ways. I would cut three quavers in 6/8 time a d g d e d , seamus recommends a d g d fsh d , It seems like the english gets nearer to seamus sound than the anglo[ although iam sure the anglo cran sonds good too].There is an ornament that pipers use called a shiver which is performed by pipers on an e note and a f sharp as an alternative to the cran f sharp is cut by gfour quavers cut by three g s in 6/8 f g f g f g, the e shiver is cut in same way by g, this is easy on an english.of course anglo players could do this as well if they work their direction changes properly as they have g going on the push and pull, on th g row and c row as well as on the accidental row. anglo players can also do proper fiddle rolls example g fiddle roll g a g f sh g all in one direction as well as doing their fake rolls, likewise for quite a few other notes. DickMiles

Subject: RE: english concetrina and irish music
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 04:54 AM

foulestruope mentioned practice.Almost as important, is listening to good players.
      I practice my fiddle using matt crannitch ,geoff bowen ,and the David lyth books this I find helpful to my concertina phrasing ,.
      last night I listened for an hour to trad music on tg4, as well as having practised for three hours.so listening and absorbing, is as important as practise. best wishes.Dick Miles.