BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: Janie
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 09:20 PM

(Oh dear, Bill, you haven't yet been warned not to encourage me.)

What follows is a more or less academic generalization. I do not imply by my words that there are any 'ought tos' or a right/wrong dichotomy regarding the ways a person's death is marked, (or not) by family or the community.

Rites of passage, of which funerals and memorial services are one example, serve dual purposes. We humans need both individuality and a community to survive as a species. There is always a dialectic between the two poles of individual rights and societal needs. A society's or community's laws, mores, and customs are the vehicles through which these sometimes opposing needs are balanced, and reflect the continuing dialog and constantly shifting balance between the two.

    The psychology of death rites is about how well the rituals serve the needs of the individuals who are most intimately affected by the death of a person. The sociology of death rites is about affirming the link between the individual and the community. In some societies this link is even reinforced by the presence of professional mourners. In American society, large churches will often have 'committees' of individuals whose ministry is to attend funerals even though they may not know the individual at all in order to assure a community presence. In other cultures, these prefessional morurners may be paid. Their main role is a sociological function to reaffirm society's responsibility to the individual. This does not imply that the community met those responsibities while the person still lived. It does, however, serve to reinforce the obligation, regardless of whether the obligation was fulfilled.

    When I go to the funeral of a neighbor who I did not know well, or when I contribute money for flowers to be sent from the neighborhood when some one is hospitalized who I do not really know, I am joining in a communication that says the person is valued as a necessary component of the community on which I depend whether I know that person well or not. I am acknowledging the interdependence of 'community' irrespective of close personal relationships, and also acting to reinforce to both myself and the community the importance of that social contract to my ability to survive as an individual. In short, I am attesting to the validity of the social contract, even though I may have few, if any, psychological needs or responsibilities associated with the death of that person.

    I don't mean to sound so dry and didactic. I just don't know how to express it otherwise.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 01:16 PM

I've had a few PMs asking about Woodland Funerals. Here's the site I used:

http://www.peacefunerals.co.uk/woodland.html

Peace to all and Blesséd be.

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 03:41 PM

When the person who died has indicated that they don't want a funeral, then you're kind of on your own in determining how and when you want to acknowledge the passing of that loved one. My Dad didn't want a funeral, and I felt like waiting a little while, to give people time to get over the shock and to move onto being able to tell stories and sing songs without crying would be a good thing. I live in Fort Worth, Texas, he died in Washington State. A friend of his who had the familiarity with local facilities and the folk scene set up a Song Circle event a few months later that we all attended, and it was a marvelous sendoff.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: Janie
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 03:55 PM

Looking back, the wake that was held after my sister's funeral was the most meaningful part of all of the funeral ritual to me. Family and old friends gathered at her house. Her husband Mickey brought out photo albums of our younger years of festival going, music parties and music sessions on back porches. At our request, old friends brought their guitars, fiddles, basses,banjos and pennywhistles to the wake. They played, we sang, clogged, laughed and cried. If Kaye was anywhere around to observe, I'm sure she enjoyed it thoroughly.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: Bert
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 04:28 PM

on the icy sidewalks after a bad snowstorm... Oh dear, now every time I walk along an icy sidewalk I'm gonna think I'm treading on our darling SINSULL.

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: GUEST,Partridge
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 01:02 PM

At my Fathers funeral last december, we went to the cremation first and had him bagpiped in. This was for family only. We then a service in his church that was to celebrate his life. I read the eulogy myself as I remember at my Mums funeral the minister made mistakes that really annoyed me. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done.
A comment from one of my friends fathers after the service "not a proper funeral without a body" - never liked him much anyway.

we had a wake at the golf club - he would have been sorry to miss that............. I miss my Dad

pat x

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: jacqui.c
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 01:25 PM

Dave Bryant had the right idea as far as I'm concerned. Body cremated without ceremony and a wake some time later for all of his friends. Wish I could have been there.

Funerals, IMHO, are for those that are left. I won't be bothered about what is done to my remains but my family might. I have given instructions to my lot to cremate me without fuss (and cheaply) and to have a celebration of my life, with as many of the people that I call friends present. I hope that they can go through with that but, if they feel the need for something more formal, that's OK with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 01:34 PM

Seems to a country boy that there are a couple of things to consider. First, the wishes of the deceased. That would pertain to religious rites, etc. Second, the wishes of those left behind. That is the purview of the surviving friends, and family. I love Sinsull fiercely, consider her a close friend, and she has every right to not have a funeral service. But I will gather with friends, lift a jar, tell about my "marriage proposal" and the ring, laugh about "Koko" who still sits with the kids in the corner of my bedroom (Mary Lou laughs when she looks at her), giggle over her shitty gifts program, and celebrate the hell out of her life. I will do this whether she likes it or not. We will laugh, cry, and in a private moment I will cry over not seeing her again in this world (I know, I know, Mary, but it is my belief) and I will miss her. It is something passed on to me by my Irish ancestors. Grieving is critical to healing. Remembering is critical to honoring and healing. To deny the ability to do that is to deny humankinds essential nature. Of course, this presumes I outlive her, for which there is no evidence to support that conclusion. She might, in fact, kill me first.

I have had two very recent examples.

Dan Milner (Liam's Brother) lost his Mom. The wake was a very uplifting experience. As Dan pointed out, the wake is not historically a religious rite, but a secular one. Religion has been mixed in, but it's purpose was to remind that someone trod the path, remember them fondly, and so pass on to others that they were here. It is a chance to vent human emotion, so necessary to our mental health. I found myself walking away wishing I had the chance to know Nora Mary Milner in my life.

The other was my closest friend in my life, Joseph David Crump. I loved this man with every single ounce of my being. He was the most giving, complicated, and loving friend I have ever had. His heart was huge, his love unlimited, and I will miss him every single day of the rest of my days on this path. His family were difficult, they were preoccupied by his estate, and made the funeral a show for themselves. Joe was not close to them, and that always broke my heart while he was alive. But in his death, I saw why. But I know that this is more a sign of dysfunction in the family, and worthy of sadness rather than condemnation. We, who were considered by Joe to be his "chosen family" were determined to let the family have whatever they needed, but that our part of saying goodbye would be a celebration of this man who gave so much. We started a fund to create a playground in a primarily African American neighborhood that Joe loved and devoted himself to, as he was African American. During our part of the service we spoke of what he meant to us, and our sorrow at his leaving. And in the quiet moment at the end, after a few minutes to allow people to reflect on this life lived so well, I stood to the microphone in this marvelous old church, and sang Dave Carter's "When I Go".

I think that when folks forget what the service is really about, they lose their way.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: Pistachio
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 07:20 PM

Thanks for a thoughtful and most interesting thread.
At my mother-in-law's graveside an unknown female 'minister' said a few words and I felt sorry for her! She was just doing her job - talking about the deceased, but she used the wrong Christian name and talked about 'her busy life and how 'all her friends' would miss her' .... sorry she honestly didn't have anyone left who was a friend and her life was lived inside a 12th floor high rise flat and then a nursing home.
Whatever, after that experience, a few years later when my father-in-law died, I wrote out about 9 lines of fact, and handed it to the minister who looked so relieved. Able to discard his own 'words for the day, he took time to read my notes and delivered an honest account of Cyrils' life which left my husband, an only child, quite content.
At my Dads' cremation 21 years ago on Hogmanay I remember doing my best to sing out strong, it was the only thing I could do for Dad. I've (fortunately) not had many funerals to attend but I make it my mission to sing out (as I find so few people know the hymns),and it is my best way to say farewell.
Sadly I had two infants' funerals to attend in '92 and 94. I sang then and was pleased when friends of the families thanked me (!) as they found themselves unable to sing.
A young colleague of my Dad died in 2000 and his funeral was a wonderful celebration. The minister entered the church and, tapping the coffin, said "well Walter, you got it wrong!" ....that phrase you always used....'there's plenty of time' ..you got it wrong!"
From then on, for a full hour we listened to comments and anecdotes about this lovely man and how he touched others.It was amazing to see the packed church trying to stifle giggles and smiles -because funerals are solemn and serious - Not anymore!! Endless stories were told about Walter and, by the end the 'gathered friends' left with smiles on their faces. I'm chuckling now at the memory.

I'd like to consider having a 'rehearsal' - but not for a few years yet (though why not?) and gathering all those 'old friends' so that I can see them again....and then they'll not need to make their way, at short notice, when I do chose to expire!

Oh well, good health to you all and keep singing
H.

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 07:35 PM

That's OK with me, Mick. But I really prefer a face to face in real life.
It angers me to see a non-existent "friend" show up at a funeral and grieve profoundly at their loss when all they had to do was walk around the corner and say "Hi" when the person was alive.

See you in November.
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 07:38 PM

Janie: I just got to this thread again and I think what you are saying can be summed up, briefly, by stating===a funeral is for the living. They attend for various reasons. Were there no funeral only the nearest and dearest would suffer and mourn.   

       That said, I add that my request---I think I mentioned it earlier---is---hey, have a party and do some nice music from people who I knew---and hope would perform because the liked me too.   They will not be named here.   Only sad part is---I would miss the party (Memorial --if you like).   My daughter, who has my sense of humor, is aware of my thoughts. And, in an earlier note on this thread you can see my thoughts on this----rehearsal funeral like a rehearsal wedding dinner---or, her joking thought, in fact.

       As to the Vodka---if they serve it in the hereafter ===all to the good. If not---I best have some at the rehearsal.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 07:45 PM

PS...I am NOT going to Heaven if they won't let my dogs in...ALL of them!!! (and provide kibble too!!)

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 09:46 PM

Apparently, there aren't too many Catholics on this message board.

Catholics bring their kids to Mass, rather than send them off to babysat by the Sunday school "teachers". Same applies for wakes, funerals, weddings, baptisms, etc. However, they (the kids) are supposed to be "prepared" for the services, ie their parents are expected to explain what is going on to them ahead of the wake/service/burial.

Since I've been attending Catholic wakes my entire adult life, an open casket seems quite normal to me. So does death, because I've been around it ever since I was a small child.

I find it creepy as hell that so many people are now so far removed from death, that they no longer see any point in gathering loved ones together at the end of a person's life. Yes, Catholics believe the funerals are to support those who are left behind to grieve. I don't have a problem with that either. As it should be. We are meant to look out for one another.

OTOH, I just this afternoon went searching for a sympathy card for a friend whose father died last week at the local giant supermarket chain Store near me. They carried a myriad of cards for happy, special occassions. Had five 'get well' cards. Not a single sympathy card to be found on either side of the card aisle (it wasn't small). I find that pretty typical of the happy face middle class folk culture these days. Death = bad. Do not discuss. Do not gaze one's eyes upon another's suffering. And whatever you do, don't acknowledge anything difficult, painful, or outside the normal "have a nice day" topics of conversation.

Which is why this society is so sick, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 09:48 PM

I am in absolute agreement with GUEST.

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 10:00 PM

Sorry--should have said "I've been attending Catholic wakes my entire life" not "adult life".

I'm not a practicing Catholic. I abhor the hierarchy and dogma. But the rituals are there for a reason, and I have no problem with the concept of why Catholics celebrate the seven sacraments. The older I get, the more comforting I find them.

Azizi, Catholics do still do something similar (sometimes) to what you described as the procession before the family/saying goodbye to the deceased. It is a very emotional part of the ritual, but it's purpose is meant to be cathartic. That is the purpose of funeral rituals in all cultures, whether religious or pagan. Catharsis is what funerals are supposed to be all about. It is the first step in healing, and usually involves a bit of anger and hysteria. Both those reactions are normal and healthy. Being frozen, not being able to open up emotionally, is much more difficult for those who are grieving the loss. Much, much more difficult.

We need support when we lose loved ones. Always have, always will.

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 10:13 PM

Of course, if I were Jewish, I'd have a less ecstatic version of what viewing the corpse in an open casket would be like.

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 11:20 PM

"Being frozen, not being able to open up emotionally, is much more difficult for those who are grieving the loss. Much, much more difficult".

I agree, Guest, that it's important for people to let their feelings out. But part of my concern with traditions such as that funeral procession in which people pay their respects to the grieving family and then pay their final respects to the person who died is that some people think that once they've "allowed" those "left behind" to express their grief, then there should be no other times in which the person can publically or privately express her or his grief.

In the tradition that I'm familiar with, after the trauma of the funeral service and the burial, people are supposed to join together in a "repast". At the repast [which is usually held in a church basement], neither the family members nor any one else present is supposed to cry or even shed a tear. And there is little if any talk about the person who was just buried. Life is supposed to go on, right? So therefore people are supposed to 'put on a happy face' and talk about what people talk about-their children, their jobs, television shows, shopping, and sports. [Besides the children-all innocuous subjects].

There's such a disconnect about the emotional funeral service and grave site burial and the social repast that immediately follows that burial. I think that it's so very unrealistic to expect someone who's gone through the traumatic experience of losing a loved one to be emotionally fine that same day. Actually, I think it's unrealistic to expect a person whose gone through such a draining, traumatic experience to be emotionally fine that same week or that same month or that same year.

Sometimes it takes a long time to heal. You can be doing fine one day and some memory comes out of the blue and you are blue again.

Guest, you wrote: "We need support when we lose loved ones. Always have, always will."

I assume that 'we' means 'people in general' and 'always have always will' means that throughout history and the present and the future people have and do and will need support during this experience.

I'm assuming that you didn't mean that a person who has lost a loved one will need support for the rest of her or his life.

I-for one-can testify to the fact that healing does happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 06:31 PM

Yes, Azizi, you got it right. "Always have, always will" is a reference to humanity in general.

Interesting sidebar. Irish folks, some of them at least, have what I consider to be a very positive "follow up" with the bereaved, called the "monthly minder". For the year after a person has died, friends and family come together on the monthly anniversary of the death to "check in" with the survivors, see how they are, what they might need, etc. I find that practice to be not only quite comforting, but civilized.

As to the social repast thing, I've never been one for the stoic thing. I'd share your feelings about that too. Grief is a very strange thing. It pops out anywhere, any time, when you least expect it to appear. And to expect the bereaved to be able to do that on the day of the funeral just seems hopelessly unrealistic at minimum, and pretty cruel to boot. But I'm guessing there must be something people do to get around that?

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 09:41 PM

Well---group therapy. Azizi interpreted Guest's comments correctly according to Guest. All well and good. I can attest to the fact that these things are individual. Sometimes it is harder years later than in the early years. Reality sometimes takes time to realy sink in.

As to the discussion of "repasts" and "funerals". Truth is that it is a tradition --to my knowledge---in all faiths for food after the funeral (burial). Sort of a communal gathering to remember, reminisce, and, yes, small talk to make us comfortable.

I urge you to listen to a wonderful song by Kate Campbell---Funeral Food. It says it all. And truly describes it for all faiths---church basements (as was written on this thread), homes (Shiva), or restaurants when the people come from varied places---her song takes place in a southern home. The song fits all of the above.

Finally---Azizi wrote---"...healing does happen".   Sincerely, I am happy for him/her. Read my first paragraph and find that time does not heal all wounds---as the saying goes.

Hard as it is for me---I now refrain from an old joke and play on words

BH

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 10:12 PM

It occurs to me that being "stoic" is a positive trait among many African Americans.

The current street term for stoic may be "sucking it up". Many but certainly not all African American children are taught from childhood on that "life is hard" and they must be tough. Many but certainly not all African American children are socialized to show no emotion whatsoever when something bad happens to them. If a child cries, he or she is told to "suck it up" {meaning stop crying, and act like nothing is wrong}. From childhood on, many {but not all} African Americans males and females are taught that emotional expressions are a sign of weakness. Weak people get taken advantage of. Only the strong survive. Being cool, not letting anyone or anything "phase" {bother} makes them a winner in the verbal game of The Dozens and in the game of life. Or at least that's the way it's supposed to be in the world according to Black Coping Skills 101.

What does this have do do with funerals? My sense it that during the funeral, the normal restrictions against showing emotions are suspended. The bereaved family & close friends are "allowed" to let their feelings of sadness and loss show. But after the ceremony at the gravesite, once the family & friends get back into their cars, then life goes back to normal and the rules against public displays of sensitive emotions are back in force. People are expected to return to the dominant coping mechanism of pretending that everything is cool.

I wonder if the New Orlean jazz parades after a funeral isn't a colorful example of the Black American socialization mandate that we should act like we're fine while the world is crashing in all around us". I suspect that this is a largely unconscious and deeply ingrained part of African American socialization. Note that I said "act like". That is different than any belief that things really are fine. I think too often Black people {and other people for that matter} "mask" their grief and depression and anger and despair and then we are surprised when they explode.   

Now I'm not saying that coping mechanisms are always bad. But I definitely think that this "suck up" one's feelings coping mechanism can have devastating consequences for a person's self and for human interactions.

****

Guest, thanks for sharing that information about the "monthly minder" Irish tradition. Checking up on a bereaved family and friends once a month on the anniversary of their loved one's passing acknowledges that grief is not a let it out for one day emotion. It seems to me that this "monthly minder" tradition also acknowledges the communities' joint responsiblity to emotionally support people within the community who are suffering.

I wish there were more positive ways for people-men as well as woman-to show their grief-and sadness at other times and not just at funerals...Oh well, if I had a dollar for all my wishes, I'd be really really rich.

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 10:26 PM

I really meant to write that "It occurs to me that being "stoic" is considered a positive trait among many African Americans".

As you may have gathered, I'm African American and I don't think it's always that positive a trait. {but saying it that way one can interprete that I sometimes think it is positive}...

And btw, I'm a she, Bill. Not that it matters that much in this context. The racial identifier only matters in so far as I am sharing my experiences that may or may be similar or the same as other African Americans and other people who are non-African Americans. And yes, I am engaging in some thinking out loud about the psycho-social meaning and consequences of our {Black American} cultural traditions. Needless to say, I am an expert only in the sense that I have lived as an African American for more than 50 years...but that an a nickel won't buy me any coffee.

I stand by my statement that "healing happens". I didn't mean that the healing happens always in all ways, or to every one the same way or that what is healed is not still in some ways wounded or that people who are healed are better than they were before they were wounded though in some ways they might be better and stronger in body, mind, and/or soul.

At any rate, my hope is that some healing occurs for all who are wounded. That said, I never said that I was a Pollyanna.

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 05:20 PM

I heard, recently, that the New Orleans Jazz funerals represent something regarding life and death. Not "stoicism". The person talking of them (on NPR) was saying that they start off slowly with the mournful sounds of loss---and get lively to celebrate the person's life and also those of the people who's lives will still go on.

I suppose that, like things in many faiths (see the thread on Kosher Chickens), is open to interpretation and belief.

Azizi--I only wrote he/she because I did not want to make assumptions and if one writes "he" it always supposes a man is writing---as you said--not that it matters.

Bill H---as opposed to Billie (female)

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 06:12 PM

How did I miss this thread?

As usual I'm posting late and nobody will bother to check out my words of wisdom.

First, though, I love Micca's song.

Second, I too dread boring funerals which probably includes the vast majority that I've experienced.

However, I go to funerals or memorial services of close friends as an expression of solidarity with them whatever the program is. I don't expect to see a program in advance or a menu but when one send out with the invitation it is appreciated.

Being an athiest generally means that I don't have a clue what to expect from a traditional religious funeral. One of our close friends was a Russian Orthodox and I enjoyed the incense and the incomprehensible singing. I dutifully lined up to say good-bye to the departed and was somewhat dismayed that everyone was kissing the corpse in the open casket, but I screwed up my courage and kissed the corpse too. (whew!)

My father's memorial service was carefully planned, scheduled about six months after he died when most people could attend. His body wasn't in attendence but there were huge blow-ups of important times in his life. There were stories that we had friends and relatives prepare, some of the stories well known and some of them known only to the immediate family. There were songs in between the stories. And there was food and drinks to sustain those attending.

I had a great time organizing it. The organizing did distract me somewhat from deeper emotions but that was fine with me. I even led a song, and had a good time. I think most people had a good time as well, and left with a better sense of who my father really was.

I haven't a clue what father thought of this. He would have prefered something more modest but he didn't get a vote. Mother, however, was pleased.

The lesson to be learned. Do the best you can, but please don't waste a lot of money on an expensive casket and speakers who know nothing about the deceased.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 12:47 AM

If it weren't for funerals, I'd never get a decent free lunch or a bellyful of free beer. It's time to put the 'fun' back in 'funeral', folks!

Seamus

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 03:58 AM

I always took the view that I wanted to be bagged and burned and forgotten as quickly as possible.

I figured the time for people to say nice things about you and buy a drink would be when you are here to enjoy them.

However the large bosomed woman with the major league cleavage , mentioned in Sorcha's post, interests me greatly - perhaps I could book her now.

The last funeral I went to, was a Jewish one. All the men (except me, who feels inhibited about such things) took a turn at filling in the grave. Not sure what that all that was about, and we were all asked to wear hats. The service was in Hebrew. Strangely I never even knew the guy was Jewish until his son told me - religion not being high on our topics of conversation.

When you think about it, you don't really need a funeral these days. I mean if you think about Jesus, a real big hitter in this life - there is not even a photograph of him. Shakespeare - people regularly get on mudcat and say he never wrote a word, and anyway he never looked like that.

Nowadays there will be ample evidence of all of our existences - photos, films, recordings, phantasmal voices and messages floating round in cyberspace - things that can summoned up by anyone who is interested.

And theres the rub. Will anybody be interested? To be honest judging from the lack of intereest generated by my work this side of the grave - I really doubt it. And furthermore, would it be desirable for people to be looking at all the foolish things I did and said after, I 've gone? Because there they will be, preserved and sampled in digital reality, fresh as paint.

Now I see the point of those shovels at the Jewish funeral.

Subject: RE: BS: Funerals and Other Boring Stuff
From: Mo the caller
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 11:24 AM

I don't go to funerals of people unless I know the close relatives, I reckon the deceased won't know or care, but their partner might.