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Lyr Req: Martin Said to His Man

DigiTrad:
WHO'S THE FOOL NOW or MARTIN SAID TO HIS MAN


Related threads:
Martin Said to His Man (109)
Lyr Req: I know a Milk maid - Napoleonic folk song (10)
who's the fool now (33)
martin said to his man couplets (14)


skipy 22 Aug 06 - 02:45 PM
MMario 22 Aug 06 - 02:51 PM
Paul from Hull 22 Aug 06 - 02:52 PM
Paul from Hull 22 Aug 06 - 02:53 PM
skipy 22 Aug 06 - 03:07 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Aug 06 - 05:12 PM
Bill D 22 Aug 06 - 05:37 PM
skipy 22 Aug 06 - 05:46 PM
Richard Bridge 22 Aug 06 - 06:16 PM
The Fooles Troupe 22 Aug 06 - 08:45 PM
Malcolm Douglas 22 Aug 06 - 10:48 PM
Dead Horse 23 Aug 06 - 04:19 AM
Scrump 23 Aug 06 - 04:21 AM
Paul Burke 23 Aug 06 - 04:23 AM
Scrump 23 Aug 06 - 04:34 AM
trayton 23 Aug 06 - 04:52 AM
Richard Bridge 23 Aug 06 - 06:28 AM
Zany Mouse 23 Aug 06 - 01:27 PM
Leadfingers 23 Aug 06 - 03:28 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Aug 06 - 04:58 PM
Snuffy 23 Aug 06 - 06:24 PM
The Fooles Troupe 23 Aug 06 - 07:21 PM
The Fooles Troupe 23 Aug 06 - 07:51 PM
Greg B 23 Aug 06 - 08:13 PM
The Fooles Troupe 23 Aug 06 - 08:50 PM
Snuffy 24 Aug 06 - 08:21 AM
Charley Noble 24 Aug 06 - 09:26 AM
GUEST,Scholar 24 Aug 06 - 11:48 AM
Malcolm Douglas 24 Aug 06 - 08:30 PM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Aug 06 - 10:08 PM
Flash Company 25 Aug 06 - 10:48 AM
Dead Horse 25 Aug 06 - 03:31 PM
Charley Noble 25 Aug 06 - 04:10 PM
Charley Noble 25 Aug 06 - 09:18 PM
Charley Noble 26 Aug 06 - 11:37 AM
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Subject: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: skipy
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 02:45 PM

Help,
What is the title & has anyone got the lyrics.
Regards Skipy


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: MMario
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 02:51 PM

who's the fool now?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 02:52 PM

Skipy, here you go!


Blue Clicky Thing


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 02:53 PM

*lol*

Well, no fools we, are we Mario!

(nor you either Skipy!)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: skipy
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 03:07 PM

Thanks all,
Best regards Skipy


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 05:12 PM

Additions

I saw {whoever} buy a round
...
Saw the {someone even less believable} turn him down
...

I heard {whoever} sing a good song
...
Heard the folk club sing along
...

Have fun.

:D (tG)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 05:37 PM

there are many, many 'composed' verses...some more than clever...


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: skipy
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 05:46 PM

O/K so lets write a few - nothing nasty now!
Skipy said to his man?..............

If you fill in this verse you put yourself forward for someone to put a verse forward for you!
Skipy.
Perhaps we can sing them at Towersey!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 06:16 PM

Saw Hartley Morris dance.....
Bunch of zombies in a trance


Saw Martin drive at speed....
Laughed until I nearly weed


Heard Dave sing a song....
Too damn loud and too damn long


Drank a Colt 45.....
Wonder that I'm still alive


Saw the snail drive the nail.....
Faster far than British Rail


Saw Tony Blair tell the truth....
And a virgin dance in Magaluf


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 08:45 PM

The Scots sang it as "Who's fu the noo?" - which means "Who's drunk?" -which I think makes more sense with the older verses - but the English stuffed it up...


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 10:48 PM

Information is in previous discussions; no need to start a new thread so that people can repeat the same information (or misinformation in "Foolstroupe's" case). Search engine is at the top of every page here.

There may well have been confusion at some point between "full" and "fool", but we don't know what the original was; though, since the song was first published in England c.1588 (the first text surviving is Ravenscroft,1609) while the first known Scottish example didn't appear until 1701 (and that was just a tune without words published by Henry Playford) it might seem reasonable to suppose that "fool" is the original. So far as I remember, the first published Scottish text including the line "Wha's fou, wha's fou?" didn't appear until 1827 (Kinloch, Ballad Book).

Rather a big claim to say that "the English stuffed it up" when the first known Scottish text we have is more than two centuries later than the earliest surviving English one. Unless, of course, "Foolstroupe" is privy to information hitherto unknown to scholars; in which case I think we should be told.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: Dead Horse
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 04:19 AM

Is this song Scots or Brit
Fie, man fie.
Is this song Scots or Brit
Whos a fool now
Is this song Scots or Brit
Depends on who is singing it

Heard Richard playing his guitar
>
Heard Richard playing his guitar
>
Heard Richard playing his guitar
Way too close - he's better by......Far.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: Scrump
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 04:21 AM

Richard Bridge's examples remind me that back in the 1980s (or 90s?) someone came up with:

I saw Michael Heseltine
...
Open up a new coal mine

It would be good to come up with some similar ones for the 2000s - there must be plenty of scope with the current bunch who dictate how we live our lives. Any other suggestions? Think Prescott? Brown? (etc.)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: Paul Burke
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 04:23 AM

Skipy said "write a verse"
Can anybody write one worse?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: Scrump
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 04:34 AM

To follow the spirit of the original song, I think the verses should state that the singer saw something very unlikely (the 'Heseltine' one for example, or DtG's round-buying one, or Richard's "I saw Tony Blair tell the truth"). Here's my feeble effort for starters:

I saw a train leave on time
...
And a song by Scrump that rhymed (well, almost)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: trayton
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 04:52 AM

I heard Skipy tell a lie

"I found a skip and passed it by"


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 06:28 AM

Saw Dead Horse sing in tune...
And fight John Rigg at Brigadoon

Dead Horse's verses scan...
And enlighten any man


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 01:27 PM

I saw old [name] buy a round
Each drink cost him half a crown.

Rhiannon


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 03:28 PM

My favourite (NO I DIDN'T write it)

I Saw a Butterfly flutter by
And a Dragonfly drink a Flagon dry


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 04:58 PM

I saw a buttefly flutter by
and saw a catterpiller wave his pillock at 'er?

The other interesting thing is that Martin said to his man seems to be a servant talking to or about his master - Looking after him when he is drunk. It later became popular usage to refer to a servant as 'my man' but I believe in this case the 'man' is indeed the master.

'Fu' being drunk? As in 'full'? I do find it very unlikely. Fool and Fou (as in French for mad) yes, I will have that. But I find the Scottish dialect connection very unlikely. I know lots of Scots and I have never heard one refer to being drunk as being 'fu'. Pissed, Rat-arsed, Shit-faced - Yes. Fu - No.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: Snuffy
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 06:24 PM

It's in the first verse here I BELONG TO GLASGOW - rhyming with "you"


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 07:21 PM

"it might seem reasonable to suppose that "fool" is the original."

When you ASS-U-ME, you make a fool of U & ME...

Ah, I could rant on about the dangers inherent in taking the dates of first publications as a hard indicator of what is out there in the undocumented vocal traditon, and just not been written down and published - but I'll leave that to those 'real scholars' out there...

... and I just can't resist...

Heard Malcolm scold us all, fie, man, fie
Heard Malcolm scold us all, who's the fool now
Heard Malcolm scold us all, he thinks he knows it all
Thou hast well drunken man, who's the fool now

;-)
The Original Foole here...


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 07:51 PM

Oh, and hello Dave... :-)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: Greg B
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:13 PM

I dunno, I'm sometimes tempted to sing

"Shut the f*** up!" in place of "Who's the fool now?"
but that's just me...


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:50 PM

GregB

You just need more Beer!

... then you won't worry about being tempted...


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: Snuffy
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 08:21 AM

Malcolm,

According to this article Seventeenth Century Scottish Music by David Vavreck , there was a version published in Edinburgh in 1662. Vavrek states:
The version above is based on John Forbes' version from his Cantus, Songs, and Fancies published in Edinburgh in 1662. The last verse is unique to the English version. I originally believed that the second verse (the one about the sheep) was to be found only in the Scottish version - which would be amusing - but I then discovered that the otherwise useful edition I was working from had been silently Bowlderized. This illustrates the perils of using modern editions of period texts.

As the version is merely "based on" Forbes, I have not posted it here. Is Vavrek a reliable source, and is Forbes known to you?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 09:26 AM

I've always thought the verse Leadfingers mentioned above deserved a special prize, and wonder what its origin was:

I Saw a Butterfly flutter by...
And a Dragonfly drink a Flagon dry...

I first heard it back in 1984 from Richard "Chez" Watts from Bristol, UK, who was designing supercomputer chips in Maine on his work visa, and regaling our folk club with a wonderful selection of novel (to us) verses and songs. For the record he sang this verse as:

I Saw a Butterfly flutter by...
Saw a Dragonfly drink a Flagon dry...

He was also the first one I've ever heard sing:

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me...
Than have a frontal lobotomy...

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: GUEST,Scholar
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 11:48 AM

Well that's Malcom D's gas at a peep.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 08:30 PM

What does that mean? If you're hoping to shoot the messenger, then I wouldn't be too quick on the draw if I were you; you may find that your powder is wet.

The text in Forbes' Cantus (link above) was published in Aberdeen, not Edinburgh, according to Simpson (The British Broadside Ballad and Its Music, 1966, 776-7 and bibliography, xxvii); but this is essentially the same as Ravenscroft: "fool", not "fu"; and more than 50 years later than Ravenscroft. The first known example with "fu" instead of "fool" is, as I said, in Kinloch's Ballad Book, 1827 (XIV, 50-54: The Man in the Moon).

Of course I ought to have been more specific, saying "the first known Scottish text including the word 'fu'; but I had naively imagined that that would be understood. There will always be people, I suppose, who are more interested in sniping at others than in arriving at the truth.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 10:08 PM

Precision gives better aim.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: Flash Company
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 10:48 AM

Saw a maid milk a bull,
At every pull a bucket full....

FC


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: Dead Horse
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 03:31 PM

Anyone can sing this song x3
You make it up as you go along

This song it just goes on and on x3
And on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on
and on and on and on and on and on and on and onand on and on and on and on and on and on and onand on and on and on and on and on and on and on...............................


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 04:10 PM

Refresh!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 09:18 PM

Well, apparently no one has a clue where the verse "I Saw a Butterfly flutter by...
Saw a Dragonfly drink a Flagon dry..." came from so I'll credit it to Chez Watts of Bristol, circa 1984. However, I have a vague recollection that the phrase turned up in some other 17th century word game.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Martin said to his man
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 11:37 AM

Found it! The Rev. William Archibald Spooner is apparently the source of the lines:

"I Saw a Butterfly flutter by...
Saw a Dragonfly drink a Flagon dry..."

As Spooner phrased it back in the late 19th century:

Now you see a butterfly
Bright and nimbly flutter by,
Followed by a dragonfly,
As it drains its flagon dry...

Source: Richard Lederer, Maine Sunday Telegram, 8/31/97

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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