Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 12:28 PM

In yesterday's lunchtime sing at Towersey festival (in the barn of the Three Horseshoes pub)a guy who sang "Black Velvet Band" looked very disgruntled because the other singers overwhelmed his chorus and didn't follow his timing. But it was a singaround run by the Admiral, not a session, and he'd jumped in when it wasn't his turn....

Kitty

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Carol
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 12:46 PM

Wouldn't it be an idea for the person who's running the singaround to 'set out' the way they are running it and then no-one has any excuse to be 'jumping in'. All regular singaround members know the score, even if they don't always agree with the way a person/people runs them.
Especially galling for the people who've been waiting to be asked to sing, and who probably got there early - grrrr

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: r.padgett
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 03:02 PM

Running singarounds is difficult

Discuss

Ray

sorry just joking!!

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 04:20 PM

Carol

Agreed. I do say how I'm running singarounds (at Chippenham and Sidmouth) and where the singing is going to go. So did Lady Aelfleda in the Tap and Spile at Whitby, but that didn't stop Tom B from complaining that she wasn't going fairly round!

Kitty

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Genie
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 05:09 PM

Little Hawk said: "This seems to be mainly a U.K. problem, judging by the posts."

Well, here on the west coast of the US, I participate in several different "jam sessions" and "song circles" ("singaround" doesn't seem to be a term used in these parts). In jam sessions, it's expected that people will play and/or sing along -- even taking turns with instrumental breaks, if they like.   In those, it's not uncommon for the fiddle players, e.g., to request a more fiddle-friendly key than, say, A-flat.   But they generally do that before you start playing.
"Song circles" are generally called that because you sit in a circle (as opposed to having someone on stage. In one mode, people take turns either performing a song, leading one, or requesting one. Leading songs is common, and people tend to assume it's OK to do instrumental backup, in addition to singing along, unless asked not to.   But it's usually also understood that you don't drown out the singer or throw them off with your rhythm, etc.   So it's normally not thought of as rude to jump in with your guitar (or vocal harmony), but you're expected to be sensitive to nonverbal cues, etc.   Occasionally, though, I do find that too many instruments mess up a song I'm doing or that the whole group seems bent on singing my song faster or slower than I want -- or not allowing me to pause between musical lines as I see fit.   But, yeah, it's not Carnegie Hall, and some of the snags do come from some people knowing less about music (e.g., not understanding the concept of a "rest" in music notation).   



But Bee mentioned having people start a whole new country song while she was still singing her folk song in a "country" singaround.
In "song circles," we sometimes go into "chaos mode," meaning no more formally taking turns in a circle. And some people do tend to start more than their share of songs, but it's still understood that you don't jump into your new song before someone else finishes theirs.

I've had that happen to me, but due no doubt mostly to the ambient noise and free flow of beer in a chantey/folk song sing.   It was at an afterparty at NW Folklife Festival a few years back.   Several times, I managed to get a few bars of a song out in the wink of an eye between the end of the last song and someone else's diving in.   My voice is soft, but not inaudible. Every single time I managed to start a song, I'll be damned if one of the big-voiced chantey singers didn't start bellowing out a different song right on top of mine.

I just gave up on that informal gathering (after singing along with quite a few), because of the atmosphere.   It was a lost cause.   But I've actually had similar things happen once or twice in much smaller, quieter settings.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:40 PM

One of the rudest things (musically speaking) that happened to me was when I was singing a song (accompanying myself on guitar) at a pace I like for that particular song: a young woman opposite had obviously only ever known the disco version and started pounding fiendishly with her foot on a wooden floor to try to make me go about twice as fast. I know what I should have done, but in those days was fairly new to the session scene, so didn't do much other than give her the "daggers" stare, which made no difference!
As for people who "jump in": it wouldn't work at one of the sessions I go to. It is done in strict rotation round the room for those there at the start: anyone who arrives late, gets their name added to the bottom of the list by the session chairperson, so doesn't matter where they are sitting, they will still be last! Anyone trying to go out of turn will be deprived of the right to take a turn for the rest of the evening.
As for G# (or even A flat), I'm reminded of a former moothie player (sadly no longer with us) who played in many keys, but would shake his head and say, "Och, they're in one of they shitey keys again".

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Bert
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:41 PM

A few years ago at "The Gathering" a few of us found an empty hall and started a circle. After we had been around a couple of times, another event ended and quite a few folks came in and joined us.

We moved our chairs apart to welcome them into the circle. Then some ill mannered oaf just took over the circle and started asking people to sing out of turn and completely ignoring the original members of the circle. Eventually we just left.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:44 PM

Some years ago at Rochester Sweeps I was at an advertised and well-run singaround, when a group of musicians entered the room and tried to join in/take over
When it came to my turn I announced to song as "The Wild Geese", words by Mal Waite, tune Planxty Irwin.
I suggested that if the musicians might like to join in, the key would be J# minor!
The musicians immediately packed up and left.
Colyn.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Genie
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 10:32 PM

Well, I think Joe Offer has been known to sing in the key of "R."   Just to thow folks off, I guess. ;-D

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Carol
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 04:06 AM

'As for people who "jump in": it wouldn't work at one of the sessions I go to. It is done in strict rotation round the room for those there at the start: anyone who arrives late, gets their name added to the bottom of the list by the session chairperson, so doesn't matter where they are sitting, they will still be last! Anyone trying to go out of turn will be deprived of the right to take a turn for the rest of the evening.'
Oh to find out where Tattie Bogle lives - this is the only equitable way to run a singaround - good on you

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: melodeon king
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 06:01 AM

The key is Ab not G#. I don't see why it is a problem for anythimg other than a melodeon. The clever dick who said "try putting a capo on a flute" need head examined. You can quite easily play any key on a flute. It's us poor melodeon men that suffer every time! All songs/tunes should be in G by law.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Dave Earl
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 06:17 AM

"Oh to find out where Tattie Bogle lives - this is the only equitable way to run a singaround - good on you"


I happen to know the general area in which TB lives but I'd better let her tell you if that's what she wants to do.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: GUEST, London Danny
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:08 AM

Session rudeness...
Our traditionally excellent MC has over recent months acquired a mobile phone/organiser type gizmo and while it doesn't ring or flash lights, detracts his attention from the singers for much of the evening. I'm not sure if he realises the effect of this, but he may as well be reading a book!

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: r.padgett
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:48 AM

Completing crosswords whilst waiting for your turn ~ you know who you are!


Reading the newspaper whilst waiting for a song ~ ditto

Early singarounds had big lads to ensure fairplay ( Booker for example) and odd quip, 'We'll all come and talk at your bed side whilst your performing'

Ray

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 09:29 AM

I once had a girlfriend who I brought along to a session. She'd been to sessions before quite happily. This time she got into a strop for some reason, went to the railway station next door, bought a paperback book, came back, sat back down in the session and started reading it. And she made me take her shopping the next day.

The word I'm looking for is 'ex'....

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 10:11 AM

The key is Ab not G#.

Technically speaking this is not true. Either is correct, but your observation is the most generally used.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: GUEST,Brazilian
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 10:27 AM

We were round the pubs in Whitby during the evening and heard disappointingly little quality playing. The Elsinore seemed to be about the best but the Tap and Spile.....some of our group were laughing at the "These Tables are Reserved for Musicians" notices, wondering where they would sit if they ever turned up......

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 11:27 AM

Technically to the really pure in heart Ab is not G#, but in the equal temperament scale they are.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 11:33 AM

Well done, Richard.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 11:38 AM

A flat or G #? my little joke! Easier to read the former if you read music!
I live near Edinburgh: the session I mentioned is not too far away!
TB

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 12:40 PM

The rule should always be don't provide accompaniment to an unaccompanied singer unless it's asked for. And then agree a key with the singer beforehand and let the singer set the pace. I accompany myself on bouzouki or melodeon, so why would someone assume that they should use an instrument if I'm singing unaccompanied?

Many so-called accompanists are not up to the job anyway. If they can only thrash out three chords, or play the tune that the singer is singing then they should shut up, and it would help if others in the session gently pointed that out to them. Most people are quite amenable if approached in the right way. I tend to only join in with friends I've played with before, or with stuff I know well enough. If Maggie or I don't mind a bit of extra accompaniment we'll say something like 'this one's in D'.

The original 'rudeness' took that started this thread took place in the Endeavour in Whitby. This is not an organised session, but of the type we usually call a 'dive-in' session, in which there is no organiser and the next performer 'dives-in' when the last song/tune is finished. It's often a noisy pub with lots of instruments and people wanting to thrash out quite noisy stuff. We spent a night in there (Monday?) and ended up sort of running it, going round the room and trying to give everyone a chance, which is the only way really if there are unaccompanied singers wanting to do a nice quiet song.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Carol
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 01:21 PM

Thanks TB but it's a long way to come for a night out, I met a gentleman at the Durham Folk Party who lives near Edinburgh and manages to go out singing every night of the week - lucky devil!

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 03:01 PM

Worst manners -
We were sitting behind a veteran Folkie 'star'from NE England in a London Club where a young woman singer from the Aran Islands was a guest.
Out of consideration she gave a very brief descripting of her Irish language songs, during which out Geordie friend talked loudly and deliberately. When asked to shut up he replied 'I came here to listen to f******* songs, not talk; I thought we'd got rid of this s*** thirty years ago.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Genie
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 03:21 PM

Les, I find that different groups have different rules (officially acknowledged or otherwise). One song circle I attend is dominated by singers, many of whom sing or lead songs a cappella. In that group, people seem to understand that you need to be very sensitive to the nonverbal cues in deciding whether to play along or not. (If the song leader is using an instrument, some of the others often do play along.) But, with or without instruments, the goal -- though not always accomplished well -- is to follow whoever is leading the song. And if someone chooses to do a solo, a cappella or not, people honor that.

In other groups, it's the norm for songs to be accompanied by the instrumentalists and for the group to sing along, unless someone specifies otherwise.   Usually people don't ask, "Do you want us to play (sing) along?" if it's a song others know. It's not the norm in that group.

I think it's a courtesy for newcomers to get the feel of a group and its norms (or ask about them) before diving in, based on assumptions.   E.g., one jam session I attend sometimes is primarily bluegrass, fiddle tunes, and classic country/folk (e.g., Hank Williams, Woody Guthrie). Some of the regular jammers can break into a jazz version of "Humoresque" toward the end of a session with impunity, but as an occasional drop-in, I'm hesitant to venture far from the "genre" boundaries.   

Trying to "take over" someone else's song is rude in ANY setting.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Genie
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 03:28 PM

Oh, and this may not be the worst kind of rudeness, but I do consider it kind of rude to get up and leave a song circle the minute you've had your last turn 'at bat'.

Sure, sometimes you have a legitimate reason for leaving, and if you're the last one to get a turn in a large group, I can see holding out till you've had a chance to do your song.

But a lot of people do this routinely, at open mics, song circles, singarounds, jams, etc.   And this rudeness is at its worst when X, who's the informal leader du jour, has already had a couple of turns, while latecomers have either had none or maybe one, and X does his 3rd song and not only leaves but says, "Hey, it's late. Why don't we call it a night?" right before it's one of the latecomers' turn.

That sort of thing happens way too often, in my experience.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 03:52 PM

Jim, from a pro that is unforgivable. Martin Carthy always (as far as I know) listens to the floorspots and support bands at his gigs and tries to find a nice word for them. I cherish the "Good song, is it yours?" we earned. If he can have manners, lesser mortals certainly can.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 04:25 PM

By the way, I wasn't trying to excuse the behaviour of the rude people whose rudeness started this thread, but I was trying to explain that this pub during Folk Week has sessions that tend to be instrumental and rowdy. It's not an organised session. It's just who happens to be in the pub. And if nobody imposes some sort of order the weak go to the wall. Members of the public, who probably outnumber singers and players, seem to prefer this louder and faster music, and Maggie and I have to limit our output somewhat to accomodate them. But while we were there on a later night, as I said, we attempted to moderate it (with the grateful help of Gary from Sheffield who we'd just met). We know that this was appreciated by the landlords, Barrie and Mike.

I'd love to think that I could do any sort of thing but sometimes for unaccompanied song you just have to go somewhere else where you'll be more appreciated, like the front room of the Tap 'n' Spile, where you could do anything and people will listen.

And Genie, I once found myself in a bluegrass session. This was a regular session in a pub we were just using in the afternoon. When the bluegrass players came in we joined in their stuff, they accomodated us, even to the extent of giving me the nod to take solo breaks (on melodeon - that well-known bluegrass instrument!). Everybody seemed happy because no one was treading on anyone's toes.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 04:49 PM

Brazilian

I heard that Sheree (the landlady) at the Tap and Spile was disappointed by the poor quality of the "music" coming from the reserved seats on at least one evening. The family room singaround was consistently good but space very limited and likewise the non-smoking snug.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 05:49 PM

I must say that the 'reserved for muicians' at the tap and spile is very offputting for us humble singers - I saw then earlier this year when the festival was not on. It was not even true because the seats were taken up by performers and their non-performing partners as well while us poor people waiting to get a chance to sing could not even get in:-( But it is their style so I know better than to go there in the future.

It is not really rocket science to run a singaround. I did last night at the Manchester mudgather. Allow all the singers 10 minutes each. OK - We didn't finish till 11:45 last night but it could equaly have finished at 10:30 - In which case I would have started again. Just lay down the ground rules at the offset and maintain them. Easy.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Dave Earl
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 05:55 PM

"Just lay down the ground rules at the offset and maintain them. ".

Absolutely but you have to have an agreed policy for people arriving after the outset. Again there are a number of things that could be done and all of them work to a greater or lesser extent.

As long as everybody understands how your sing/session is run problems should be minimal.

dave

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 05:59 PM

Dave - running a singaround as you suggest means that only 12 singers will get to sing in 2 hours, or 18 in 3 hours. Most of the singarounds I'm involved in have a lot more than 12 singers! And the singers generally outnumber the audience.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 06:03 PM

I was replying to Dave the gnome, not Breton Cap (but agree with both DtG and BC that announcing how you're running the session is important. It didn't save Jude from being unjustly accused of running her T&S session unfairly though.)

Kitty

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Dave Earl
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:39 AM

Yes Kitty,

Generally speaking I think that, allowing for variations in length of songs,introductions,parish notices and so on, something like a dozen songs an hour would be about right.And I prefer to see "one singer = one song" and duos and trios = two songs (unless they are really wonderfull but then you are approaching what could be seen as an extended "showcase" type spot.

Of course the whole idea is a bit of a minefield if you haven't sorted out your policy before you start.

However in the Middle Bar we work to 14/15 songs per hour - cos we fine 'em for long intros.

BTW Kitty see you at The Wail!!!

Dave

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Sooz
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 03:00 AM

Twelve songs an hour is about right and I don't worry about long introductions. What makes me cringe are the singers who have to spend five minutes deciding what to sing even when it was clear when their turn was approaching! (Not exactly rude but rather inconsiderate!)

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: GUEST,Brazilian
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 04:04 AM

Having read this thread and seen some of this happening at Whitby last week, I can't help thinking that whereas you tend to think of folk enthusiasts as intelligent and educated people, that definition itself does not necessarily imply that they posess social skills and the general ability to interact in what may be termed an "adult" manner with their fellow man. This thread seems to reinforce that line of thought. I wonder how it all worked in the pre-folk revival days of traditional singers and musicians? "Walter Pardon? - Right, you've got 5 minutes" "Scan Tester? Did you play an A#major then instead of a F#dim3??!!?, what do you think you're doing??" Somehow I think not.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 04:17 AM

but agree with both DtG and BC that announcing how you're running the session is important.

I suppose for one off sessions (eg. a festival) or if starting up a new event, yes but for regular sessions, I'd hate to see the "rules" gone through each time a new person turned up. IMO, it's up to them to ask and or feel their way.

I would guess "compered" singaround could be different to a session on this.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 04:30 AM

Ours is always a compered singaround so the compere can keep control. We had 15 singers on Monday - ran from 9 till 11:45 with a 10 minute break around 10:30. Most people did 2. 3 or 4 did 1. The last guy did 3 but his 3rd was after I had officialy closed the club.

We had about 8 or 9 singers in by 9pm. The rest had arrived by 9:30. If any more had come in after that I would have to seriously consider explaining to them that they were too late to get on.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 04:35 AM

Oh - The other alternative we always take first if we get oversubscribed is to drop the residents. After that we ask some of the more reasonable regulars if they would mind ducking out. Last choice is to tell people they were too late - Sorry, should have explained that.

DtG

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 05:15 AM

"One guy said that's not how that song goes!" (I corrected your punctuation)... : )

Oh Kendall - How often have I heard that in singarounds....? worst of all, was the chap who said it to me about a song I'd written to an old tune! He heard the first line, recognised the tune and promptly sang loudly (and badly) the original version all the way through. I do believe I interrupted him and asked him to do me the courtesy of actually listening to what I was singing before joining in.

As for reading the words - as discussed elsewhere on this forum - some people can remember things. I can't. I can remember the tune or the words, not both. The book is there as a standby and I'm not the only one who uses a 'comfort book'... as someone above said - if Martin Carthy can do it, so can us lesser mortals!

LTS

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: GUEST,old git
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 06:35 AM

LTS
even worse is to get that when you've written the words AND tune yourself or have been given them by the writer

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Dave Earl
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 04:27 PM

"if we get oversubscribed is to drop the residents."

Yes that is also a responsible thing to do if you are having a singers night or whatever at your weekly (or however regular) club.

I am quite willing to do that if the situation arises at the club where | am a resident.

Dave

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 07:02 PM

So, you've all been quite well behaved so far.

Nobody's ever said - that's what I think of you all and your rotten music, and then showed their bum....

no one has said, bloody hell mate - you were shit!

no one's said, are you under medication for being tone bloody deaf?

no ones ever broken down in desperation screaming, is there an end to this piece of music - its like the Japanese water torture!

10 out of ten for politeness folkies! In fact a bonus one for being really nice!
None out of ten for honesty.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 04:12 AM

Not showed my bum (intentionally) but have flashed other parts..... the song called for it and it was done tastefully and artistically...

Oh... and I took my dress off during a song once.... but it was one I was singing so I guess that doesn't count.

LTS

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: melodeon king
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:56 AM

Reading this thread, I think I'll take up darts.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: woodsie
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 06:09 AM

How can you have folk club (TB) without a stage and then provide poxy walker's cheese & onion square crisps and expect me to eat them whilst attempting to read the words to "ride on" by bleedin' candlight. And I didn't get to sit next to Bill Gardner or win the raffle!

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:17 AM

That's the trouble with us WLD - We are too nice. That's why we often get such crap;-) We need a Simon Cowell character at our singarounds. Any volunteers?

Cheers

DtG

PS - I have been honest with one or two people who I knew wouldn't mind. Others would not thank me!

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:40 AM

Woodsie, there are only two bleeding verses and even DK can remember them, what to you expect us to do, encode the words onto an acid molecule?

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:57 AM

Oh please not Simon Cowell! I was thinking more along the lines of Bones of the Starship Enterprise with his phaser on STUN.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 08:46 AM

rather than setting phasers to stun would it not be more apt to set faces to stunned?

(Not mine but extra points for saying where I pinched it from.)

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: GUEST,John of Elsie`s band
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 09:27 AM

I recall one night in Elsie`s when one of our regular performers sang one of his songs in his usual entertaining ,un-accompanied fashion. A musician struck up an un-invited accompaniment. The singer continued and finished his piece without a hitch and then addressed the errant musician saying " You won`t be doing that again , will you??".