cowboy vs country vs western

Subject: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Homeless
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 01:12 PM

I recently got roped into (temporarily) playing bass for my father-in-law's country band. My first exposure to country music was in the post-Urban Cowboy era, and I didn't care for it then (and don't now). But they claim to play "Old time Country." Many of the songs they play predate 1975, and most of the set list I'm hearing for the first time. (I figured if I'm gonna play I better know the songs, so located recordings of the original artists to listen to.) I'm finding that much of what is classified as "Country" I think more of as "Cowboy", e.g. Hank Williams Sr. or Wilf Carter, which in my mind is Folk. Some of the other songs are straight ahead 12 bar blues complete with flatted seventh walking bass lines.

Did Country evolve out of the cowboy music, or did it come about separately and the two genres got lumped together? How does the blues figure into it?

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 01:47 PM

What is now popularly called 'country' is more what I call "City Billy". Obviously, the genrés overlap in various ways when you compare Country, Cowboy, Western, Old Timey and even Bluegrass, but you can get a VERY good idea of the older (1940s-1960s) country & bluegrass from The Eddie Stubbs program on WAMU. Eddie used to do it locally, but was chosen to be the new MC of The Grand Ole Opry a few years ago, and now does his show remotely..(which makes little difference to anyone).

He plays a wide selection of stuff, but is pretty particular about his definitions.

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Wesley S
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 02:20 PM

Yes - the blues is a big component of the music. You might also want to give a listen to some Western Swing as in Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys or the Light Crust Doughboys. And in my opinion Jimmie Rogers had a huge impact on what evolved into country western. And he was a great blues singer.

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Scoville
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 02:29 PM

I think I'm seeing a whole grocery shelf of Can-O-Worms, with and without chili beans, here . . .

Short answer:
Cowboy would be the "Anglo" or UK-ish influence
+
Blues & gospel
=
Country


Long answer:
What I would call "cowboy" is the really folky stuff--"Streets of Laredo", "Good-Bye, Old Paint", "Ranger's Command", "When the Work's All Done This Fall", "Night Rider's Lament", that sort of thing. Modern singers might include the Gillette Brothers, Ian Tyson, etc. Pronounced cowboy themes, lots of talk about ranch life, no 12-bar blues, that kind of thing.

I don't consider Hank Williams (Jimmie Rogers, Ernest Tubb, Lefty Frizzell, etc.) "cowboy" because of the much-more-pronounced blues element and because, by that time, the themes had become more urbanized and also more similar to those found in blues. Hank didn't really sing much about cowboys. Whether or not they were "folk" depends on your definition, although if Hank was folk, so were most other early commercial country artists.

I read somewhere--and I wish I could find the reference--that "folk" type cowboy music is more similar to things like sea chanteys and early railroad songs of European ("Anglo", whatever term you want to use) origin, which makes sense since the men doing the work might easily have had similar backgrounds. I've actually got a 1930's cowboy recording of "Barbara Allan"--the tune is cowboy but the words are right out of UK folk tradition.

Country/C&W, on the other hand, seems to have come into its own in the 1940's and has a whole lot of African-American blues & gospel influence. That would be Hank. He was fascinated with blues and learned much of his playing and singing styles from black musicians. My personal feeling is that he was much, much, more blues and gospel than he was cowboy.

I'm not sure what exactly I think the difference is between country and C&W, although I tend to think of C&W as less "pop"-ified. I guess this is where your pre-1975 music would fall. I'd say it's mostly 1960's and 1970's.

Unfortunately, there's a whole lot of gray area because there are multiple influences and infinite subgenres involved. I would consider the original Carter Family to be country but they were really not Western, although they picked up some Western stuff later on--they were Appalachian, Southern, with some blues influence. The Maddoxes (recorded in the 1940's and 1950's) were C&W heading into rockabilly/rock'n'roll, and were billed as a "hillbilly" band. Bob Wills was both "country" and swing. The Hackberry Ramblers were country, swing, and Cajun. It goes on and on.

I don't know what to tell you. Keep listening and it will get easier.

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Goose Gander
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 03:56 PM

Country of course is a very broad term.

Early 'country' artists (Carter Family, Uncle Dave Macon, Fiddlin' John Carson, Eck Robertson, etc. the list goes on and on) often were lumped together as 'Hillbilly' - this music often had a strong traditional foundation (stronger in some artists than others); other sources and influences included mintstrelsy, vaudeville, music hall ('the stage' - all three) as well as nineteenth-century sheet music and other popular sources.

'Cowboy' music is a related yet whole other animal - the quintessential cowboy singer was Gene Autry, who got his start as an emulator of Jimmy Rodgers and went on to make numerous movies and records, riding on horseback and singing about wide open spaces and stuff like that. While 'Cowboy' singers did traditional material as well (ballads like 'Zebra Dun' and 'Sam Bass', etc.), much more of this stuff was made up out of whole cloth. Autry and other cowboy singers usually dressed up in flashy, faux Western garb while riding up the canyon as the coyotes yipped. No clear delineation between Hillbilly and Cowboy, of course - many artists did a little of both. To simplify, Hillbilly preceded Cowboy and had a stronger traditional foundation (not that real cowboys didn't sing songs, but Cowboy as a commercial genre came later).

The honky-tonk country music of the 1940s, 1950s and beyond (Hank Williams, Sr. etc) is closer to what most people would unquestionably identify as country music. It has a clear blues influences and generally fewer specifically 'Western' themes.

Nashville was the first home of country music, but the Bakersfield scene in California passed it by in the 1960s and 1970s (my opinion, of course). The 'Okie' migration of the 1930s and 1940s provided an essential import of music and population from Missouri, Arkansas, Texas and Oklahoma (Maddox Brothers + Rose, etc.) The West Coast scene took off in the second half of the twentieth century (Merle Haggard Buck Owens, etc.).

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: sian, west wales
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 04:06 PM

If you're interested in reading an academic (but VERY interesting) book on the subject(s) get "Singing Cowboys and Musical Mountaineers". I came across it thanks to the Mudcat Library Threat (Permathread?). Glad I've read it!

sian

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Homeless
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 04:25 PM

One of the songs they do is a Bob Wills song. One of the few songs we've found that both I know and they know is Cocaine Blues, which I learned from albums by George Thorogood and Johnny Cash, but they told me that Jimmie Rodgers did it first.

I understand about Hank not singing about cowboys, but the instrumentation and vocalizing in his songs puts me in mind the of movie star cowboy singers (not the best references, I realize).

okay, here's more worms. What defines what genre a song goes into? I've got the song "Busted" as recorded by a number of different artists. The lyrics are about living on a farm and having no money. Nazareth recorded it as a slow shuffle blues with lots of single string guitar work. Johnny Cash's version is in 6-8 with that prominent 1-2-3, 1-2-3 that makes me think of horses. John Conlee does it in 4/4 with a 1-5-1-5 bass line and a twang in his voice, giving it a modern country feel.
So is it the lyrical content, or the style of music that defines it?

The reason I'm asking this is because I'm a blues guy and I will get bored silly doing a basic 1-5-1-5 all the time. At the very least I'd like to throw in a few pickup notes and walk ups/downs for chord changes. I'd really like to do some walking bass lines, but I don't want to start alienating the audience(s) either. If the genres are that blended, will that be such a danger?

Or is this something I just need to keep an eye on the audience to see how they respond? (Which will be hard because at the 2 gigs we've done so far I've had to keep my eyes riveted on the rhythm guitarist's hand to see the chord changes since I didn't know any of the songs). I tried asking the band about how to play it, and they said "Do whatever you want." I think because their original bassist didn't know how to play (literally - he was learning the basics off a video tape).

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Homeless
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 04:39 PM

FWIW, this is the set list. The artists listed are either what the band members claim is the artist, or what I could find on Cowpie.


Good Hearted Woman                            Waylon Jennings & Willie Nelson
Whiskey Bend and Hell Bound                    Hank Williams Jr
Seven Spanish Angels                            Ray Charles & WIllie Nelson
Six Days on the Road                            Dave Dudley
Bottle Let Me Down                            Merle Haggard
Sing Me Back Home                            Flying Burrito Brothers
Paradise                                    John Prine
Two of a Kind                                    Garth Brooks
Man of Constant Sorrow
Long Haired Country Boy                            Charlie Daniels
Mama Tried                                    Merle Haggard
Swinging Doors                                    Merle Haggard
I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry                    Hank Williams
Wildwood Flower        
Give My Love to Rose                            Johnny Cash
Cold Cold Heart                                    Hank Williams
Branded Man                                    Merle Haggard                
The Year that Clayton Delaney Died            Tom T Hall
Wreck of the Old '97
Old Man from the Mountain                    ??
There's A Tear in my Beer                    Hank Williams
Three Wooden Crosses                            Randy Travis
Daddy's Little Pumpkin                            John Prine
Shotgun Willie                                    Willie Nelson
Ghost Riders in the Sky
Washed My Hands in Muddy Water                    Stonewall Jackson
If Teardrops were Pennies                    Carl Smith
Milk Cow Blues                                
Plant Flowers                                    Wilf Carter
Daddy Frank                                    Merle Haggard

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Wesley S
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 04:49 PM

Where are you located? With a set list like that there are jobs waiting for you over on the Northside of Ft Worth Texas.

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 05:03 PM

Great set list! When Rog and I worked at KVOC Country/Western radio in Casper, WY, we played a lot of those very artists and songs...what I classify as "old time" because they came BEFORE the "pop"ification of what passes nowadays for C&W, most of which I despise.

I agree, Cowboy, to me refers more to the old tunes my dad would sing and play which I have on 78's, long before Autrey and others popularized them through motion pictures, BUT some of the later artists listed above also mean Cowboy to me, as well as Country. confused? Me, too!**bg**

More after I get Rog's take as he is much clearer about it and knows the formats better than I, plus I'll have more time, later. If I can get him to, I'll see if I can get Roger C. to post, too, as he has been a dj for umpteen years and knows this stuff backwards and forwards.

GoodonyaHomeless!

kat

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Homeless
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 05:06 PM

Wesley, thanks, but I've been to Texas. I think I'll pass. *g*

So it looks like we do Country, C&W, maybe some Hillbilly, a little blues, and some Gospel. So I gues "Old Time Country" would categorize us as wall as any term?

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 08:21 PM

I think "country" is what the "pop" people were singing ten years ago, but with a twang (and in Ireland, they sing the same thing ten years after that, with a brogue).
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 09:16 PM

I am a big fan of cowboy music and western and old timey music. I am less a fan of country/western or country music as generally performed today. My definitions are largely my own as I collect, classify and play recordings.

Cowboy music is, to my mind, the work song...cattle drives, ranching, rodeoing, etc. Tex Ritter, Don Edwards exponents of this.
Western music conveys the beauty and granduer of the western outdoors. Think Sons of the Pioneers and others. A sub grouping of this might be B-western music--altho' lots of that is composed music for the films.
Old Timey, or Hillbilly, music is a rural music, east or west, often using jury-rigged instruments along with conventional ones.
Country/western is pop music with a western feeling, but filled with lush strings and/or lots of brass and reeds. Dean Martin, Jerry Wallace are the worst offenders.

Again, these are parameters I use strictly for myself; there are many really good songs which are difficult for me to pidgeon hole...the great miscellaneous.

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 10:19 PM

Cast Your Vote For the Country Music Hall of Fame

2006 Fans, who would you like to see inducted this year into the Country Music Hall of Fame in 2006?

2006 Fans Hall of Fame Vote

The CMA has announced that it will annouce their 2006 award nominees on August 30 over Good Morning America on the ABC Television Network. Later that morning in Nashville, they will also announce the 2006 class of inductees into the Country Music Hall of Fame. For the next couple of weeks, we thought we would give the fans a chance to voice their opinions who should be elected. Last time we tried this, we had nearly 2,000 votes cast. We'll let you know how the votes are going each evening.

As of Wednesday evening, August 23, 2006, fans continue casting their votes and here is the list of leaders in the voting:

01. Bobby Bare
02. Dave Dudley
03. Cowboy Copas
04. Hawkshaw Hawkins
05. Jimmy Wakely
06. Rex Allen
07. Jean Shepard
08. Ferlin Husky
09. Lulu Belle and Scotty
10. Red Sovine

Fans are casting their votes for quite an array of artists again this year. Here's some of the others receiving votes: Maddox Brothers and Rose, Billy Walker, Roy Drusky, Dottie West, Jerry Byrd, Carl and Pearl Butler, Sonny James, Charlie Poole, Charlie Walker, Melba Montgomery, Jim Ed Brown, Lynn Anderson, Wilf Carter, Elton Britt, Statler Brothers, Little Red Hayes, Jimmy C. Newman, Joe and Rose Lee Maphis, Dale Evans, Connie Smith, Tommy Riddle, Dusty Owens, David Houston Tillman Franks, Fiddlin' John Carson, Bradley Kincaid, Roger Miller, Mel Tillis, Brother Oswald, Al Dexter, Jenks 'Tex' Carman, Jimmie Lee Fautheree, Johnny Paycheck. Johnny Horton and more!

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 10:33 PM

well, that set list looks like 74.281% of what 'ol Eddie Stubbs plays on Sundays....it's 'classic' country with some Western Swing around the edges and a couple of more 'modern' things tossed in. Sounds like they play what they like!

Sometimes genré is defined by style more than title....the arrangement and tempo are more important to audience 'X' than simply what you call it.

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Scoville
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 10:41 PM

Your set list is almost entirely what I would call "country".

"Wreck of Old 97" (ca. 1910) and "Wildwood Flower" (ca. 1859) were pop tunes that passed into old-time tradition, and could be old-time, country, or possibly even bluegrass depending on how they were played. And I consider John Prine to be modern folk or country-folk more than actually country, but that's a personal view.

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Scoville
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 10:43 PM

GUEST--I can't believe so many of those artists aren't already in there! The Maddox Brothers aren't? Dale Evans isn't, for crying out loud? JOHNNY HORTON, for God's sake??? What is wrong with the world?

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 11:16 PM

I vote for Rex Allen.:-)

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Gary T
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 11:25 PM

My understanding is that Country/Western isn't a type of music. It's a descriptor of radio stations that play types (note the plural) of music that includes Country, Western/Cowboy, Hillbilly, etc. but mainly was in contrast to stations that played more urban types such as Big Band, Pop, Jazz, Rhythm & Blues, etc. In other words, it was a catchall label for all that hick stuff.

Re the set list:

"Sing Me Back Home" was written and first performed by Merle Haggard. Most country music fans associate it with him. I didn't even know the Flying Burrito Brothers covered it.

"Old Man from the Mountain" is also by Merle Haggard.

"Milk Cow Blues" was written and first performed by (James) Kokomo Arnold, but is probably better known as being done by Elvis Presley and Willie Nelson (among many others). Likely any country/rockabilly performance has its inspiration in Bob Wills' recording of it.

For Certified Nitpickers, the song variously called "Ghost Riders," "Ghost Riders in the Sky," etc. is more accurately "Riders in the Sky." It has been done by everybody and his brother. The rendition by Vaughn Monroe and his orchestra (which I believe was the first recording) was a huge hit, and in my opinion stands head and shoulders above most others (note for example, the different phrasing used for the third verse, driving it to a climax). But however it's styled, it's a great song and always a crowd-pleaser.

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 11:26 PM

Homeless--

Sounds like a dynamite set list--wish you were playing around here (DC area)--I'd go see you every weekend. As Bill says, Eddie Stubbs plays a lot of it on his program--but I'd love to hear these songs live by your group.

As to categories--the music is shot through with so many influences, there doesn't seem much point in trying to sift them out.

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Homeless
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 11:26 PM

They call it Country too (except for Paradise by John Prine, which they say is bluegrass) but I was just amazed at the differences in instrumetation and song and chord structure when I started listening to it all. And the bass line on Bob WIll's & the Texas Playboys' version of Milk Cow Blues is much closer to jazz than either country or blues.

Yes, they definitely play what they like. Almost all their gigs are volunteer, because "if someone pays you to play then that person thinks they can tell you what songs to play, and we only play what we want to play." They play together because they enjoy it, and if someone starts telling them what to do it will take the fun out of it.

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Goose Gander
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 11:28 PM

Yeah, it burns me up that Charlie Poole, Fiddlin' John Carson, Maddox Brothers,and Bradley Kincaid aren't already in the Hall of Fame. Jeez, Carson made what is generally accepted to be one of the first commercial country recordings ('Little Old Log Cabin' backed w/ 'The Old Hen Cackled and the Rooster's going to Crow'). And Charlie Poole isn't in?!

Anyway, Homeless, there are a lot of great songs on your list so enjoy yourself and I'm sure your audience will, too.

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Homeless
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 11:49 PM

Every time I go to post, three other post while I'm typing.

Gary T - they Flying Burrito Bros. was the version of the tab in Cowpie. Like I said, until a couple days ago I wasn't familiar with any of these songs (except Riders, Man of Constant Sorrow (because of O Brother, Where Art Thou - you should the dance that our lead guitar and banjar players do) and Six Days, which we had on a 40 Funky Hits album when I was a kid.) I'll have to try to find recordings by the names you've listed.

Ron - you might come once. Then you'd find out the other reason we don't get paid. These guys only play for fun, so they aren't concerned about being good (but they're good enough to get asked to play). It's the only concert I've seen where the band heckled one another.

What I'm getting is that there is no basic Country or Western song structure the way there is with a 12 bar blues. Is that right? So it's not like if I see an 8 measure tune with chords I-IV-I-V-I-IV-I/V-I played on one guitar boom-chuck style I could say "Oh, that belongs in (sub)genre X"

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Gary T
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 12:22 AM

"What I'm getting is that there is no basic Country or Western song structure the way there is with a 12 bar blues. Is that right?"

Right, certainly for songs (= vocals).

The great (overwhelming?) majority of country songs are 3 or 4 chorders, usually I-IV-V, I-II-V, I-II-IV-V, or I-IV-V-VIm in some order, but that's also true of rock and folk, and none of these genres has a this-is-what's-used-90%-of-the-time structure like blues or doowop.

Country music is more defined by subject matter and feel (e.g. plaintiveness in some songs) than by the music itself. It often has an artless, down-home style of expression that at its best is profound in its simplicity. The music behind it has a complementary simplicity, but not a cookie-cutter pattern.

So the trick is to explore appreciating country's strength - uncomplicated emotional expression that sometimes grabs right at your heart - and not get swallowed up by its weakness - plain-Jane musicality that can be like reading a 2nd grade textbook to those who have developed a taste for more intricate musical forms.

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Homeless
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 09:09 AM

Gary T - Dude, you rock. That last sentence you posted just brought a whole new clarity to country music for me. It explains why it has never appealed to me. I've never been much for lyrics; the music/tune has always been more important. Nor am I a very emotional person. I could never understand how people could listen to country with its boring music and sappy "Whoa, heartbreak" lyrics in 90% of the songs. Now I understand that the release of emotion is what the whole genre exists for. Sir, you have my gratitude.

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 01:06 PM

Well, Homeless, not withstanding what all these fine folks say, there is a basic underlying structure to the music that you are playing--and there are two basic bass lines that should get you through most of the songs--

First is the "alternating bass" which, in 4/4. is just the fundamental note of the chord on the first beat( C on a C chord), and the fifth(G of a D chord) on the third beat.

The second is an arpeggio of the chord--C-E-G-C, one note, with equal emphasis on each of the four counts in the measure--(best demonstrated in Ray Price's "Heartaches by the Number")

Keep in mind that it's really basically dance music, rooted in jazz swing and the two-step--and that the interaction between bass and drums and rhythm guitar is the most important thing for keeping the dance beat--

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 01:08 PM

Sorry, that second note for the alternating bass should be "G of a C chord on the third beat"-

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Kaleea
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 01:59 PM

Homeless, if you & these gents are playing for folks who enjoy the songs as they were performed by the artists you mentioned, I would suggest that they would most likely prefer the sound of the bass lines as the recordings were done. The bass line, which is sparse in most of the songs such as "Cold, Cold Heart" can help to define the sound of those songs.
However, bearing in mind that Western Swing (just outside of Tulsa, where my Daddy grew up with the Wills brothers it was pronounced "Western Swayng") was the "country folks" answer to the Swing/Big Band of the time, have some fun with the bass lines in those songs.
In those decades of the 30's, 40's, & especially the 50's, it is sometimes difficult to define exact genres for songs since the American popular Music genres evolved from the same roots--the merging of Music from various immigrant groups. For example, Bob Wills is considered "Western Swing," but in a few of the songs Bob Wills recorded, one can hear the beginnings of what was to be called "Rock n Roll." Such as, when the whole band was singing from the bandstand, "Everybody let's rock, rock, Everybody lets roll, roll . . ."

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 02:08 PM

from Jeff MacNelly, 25 years ago, comes a simple, erudite explanation of the true nature of country music


I'd almost forgotten I had this.....no,no...no need to thank me, thank Shoe!

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 02:14 PM

THANK YEW, SHOE!!LOL!!

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Steve-o
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:41 PM

Simply put, your set list is real Country music. The stuff coming out of Nashville today is nothing but pop-shlock. And Cowboy music is another thing completely- made popular by Gene and Roy and the Sons of the Pioneers- and currently in the very good hands of Riders in the Sky, New West, and quite a few others.

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 11:28 PM

If you get the feel right, you can add a lot, but if you don't get the feel right, things will not go well for you. One night, I sat next to a the bass player in a good bluegrass band-- I was amazed at how much he was able to do without losing that solid bluegrass feel--

As a former country bass player, I found that the most important thing was to get the biggest and cleanest sound possible out of my set up--simple bass lines are not necessarily easy to play, particularly if you care about technique--

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 12:14 AM

Listen to Faron Young to hear the alternating bass at it's best--

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Slag
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 12:58 AM

Back in the day the guitar (outside of Spain) was considered a commoner's insturment: not a REAL musical insturment. Cowboys were also looked down upon as saddle-tramps, drifters that would contract out for a job, blow their pay and move on to the next job. CATTLEMEN owned the ranch/cattle and their regulars, foremen etc. were also cattlemen. 3 chords and sometimes 4 were just fine for the cowboys' music. Throw in a harmonica or a Jew's harp and you had a regular concert. Hollywood changed that picture with the "Singing Cowboy". Truth be told, Gospel and Folk were probably the mainstay of authenic "cowboy" music. Or so I've been told.

Sons of the Pioneers did "Riders in the Sky" but I don't know if they were the first. Lloyd Nolan did "Cool Water" which I believe was the first super-hit of the genre. Roy Rogers and Gene Autry who were super stars of the "B" Westerns (along with Dale Evans) and did as much as anyone to popularize "Cowboy" music. True. It was Hank Williams that started the trend toward "Country" music. Bob Wills and the Texas Troubadours introduce a blend called "Western Swing".

Let's not forget Marty Robbins. He was probably on of the last to have popular hits with "Western Music". It is very rare any more to hear a Western song on the radio.

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 05:53 AM

and Moe Bandy

Coboys Ain't supposed to Cry, Bandy the Rodeo Clown

People tell me Garth Brooks and the Dixie Chicks are fantastic. They sit me down and play their music, but somehow I don't find their stuff as memorable - can't think of one song that sticks the way Oh Lonesome Me did the first time I heard it.

I expect its just that I'm old and my ears have ossified.

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Homeless
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 09:34 AM

Thanks to everyone who's given me a bit of the history and/or classification. It's really helped my understanding of the genres.

We had our first rehearsal with me on bass last night. Other than the couple blues numbers, I stuck pretty much to alternating bass with a few grace notes or a walk up/down here and there. The guys were really pleased, even commenting on the "soft touch" that I had, whatever that means. So it seems that I'll do.

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 11:14 AM

Chris LeDeux did Cowboy and did it very well, esp. in his earlier years in the early 80's.

Slag, it was a bit different where my dad grew up, according to his stories which I am putting into a book. He talks about the cowboys who were hired hands saying they "slept in the bunkhouse and ate with and were very much a part of the family."

kat

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 11:14 AM

To get a good idea of real cowboy music I'd look to see what Sam Hinton has to say about it. His scholarship regarding the music he performs is first-rate. He's not singing the popular ballads as much as he is the regional songs, many of them work songs, and songs that have been translated (from Spanish, primarily). Ed McCurdy put out some good distinct collections of songs that follow along the lines of what Hinton would probably list.

FWIW.

SRS

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 11:34 AM

The part that I left out is that you have to listen to the people you're playing with while you're playing--that's what makes playing a what seems like a simple part interesting, and that's what makes bands that are playing the same things sound different--you sound like you're well on your way!

I didn't mention that I loved the set list--but it is really a nice one-I love this sort of music, I grew up listening to it, and love the Eddie Stubb Show as well--it is deceptively simple stuff, and I hope that you connect with it--sounds like you're band is an entertaining one--don't know how good they are, but they have great taste and a great attitude!

Subject: RE: cowboy vs country vs western
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 11:24 AM

If you want to hear real cowboy music, check out a 2-vol set from Yazoo called "When I Was A Cowboy." It's nothing like country music.

My father is from Kentucky and he sings cowboy songs all the time because he was raised on them. He never, ever listens to country and can't stand the stuff. There is some overlap as poeple point out but they are by rights different genres.