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BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 30 Aug 06 - 10:27 AM Short answer: Yes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Dave Masterson Date: 30 Aug 06 - 04:15 AM The truth is the truth, no matter what we as individuals may think. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: GUEST,Joe_F Date: 29 Aug 06 - 10:22 PM The short way to a contempt citation: "If I could tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, I'd *be* God." --- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: Wealth, like happiness, is best attained while pursuing something else. :|| |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Donuel Date: 28 Aug 06 - 10:26 PM Truth can be perception Propaganda truth can be repetition, so that a legend can become the truth George Bush is on point He is walkin the walk He is holding the course He is talkin the talk He is cool under fire He is speakin his mind He is bringing it on He is smokin him out and bringin him to justice. I was in New Orleans 2 days after Katrina* * he said that one just today. ...I love the Douglas Adam references... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Slag Date: 28 Aug 06 - 10:03 PM Aside from the humor (negligible) aspect of the car dealer, there is no such thing as a car dealer. Language creates is own reality, or un-reality if you will. There are human beings who work to sell cars and while it may be true that as they perform that act of attempting to sell someone a car, they lie, it is also very probable that when engaged in other verbal intercouse in their lives, they do not lie or they do not lie as much or knowingly. We tend to generalize and in generalizing we stereotype, generally! And how about hypocracy? You gotta love it. It's oil to the machinery of social interactions. We couldn't live without it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:22 PM ... whereas 'toothiness' is a 'purelydental' matter... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: GUEST, Eb Date: 28 Aug 06 - 06:21 PM 'Truthiness' on the other hand is negotiable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Bill D Date: 28 Aug 06 - 06:11 PM "It's the truth, it's actch'll Ev'rything is satisfactch'll" Zippity-doo-dah - from "Song of the South" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Aug 06 - 05:52 PM If you have to assert that it's the truth, then it's probably only your opinion. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Scoville Date: 28 Aug 06 - 01:49 PM Amen, dave. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 28 Aug 06 - 01:12 PM To answer the founding question, "Is TRUTH subjective?", the answer has to be: Of course!" "The truth" always involves something beyond a mere statement of (as Amos so nicely said) "the hard-cornered mechanical facts". That difference always includes some degree of attitude, prejudice, editing, emphasis, etc., and those things are necessarily subjective. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Amos Date: 28 Aug 06 - 01:00 PM Exactly the point, indirectly. The intersection where the absolute Truth of being, ad the hard-cornered mechanical truth of events in a time-space continuum coincide, is a very troubled theater indeed. Let us wash our hands. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: GUEST,Chief Chaos Date: 28 Aug 06 - 12:57 PM And then there's Douglas Adams' classic Hitchhikers Guide where a trial witness was given truth serum, only he was administered too much and when told to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth did so! They walled him off to protect the citizens of the galaxy. Too much truth can be a harmful thing! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: harpmolly Date: 28 Aug 06 - 11:52 AM "The trouble with Nanny Ogg was that she *always* looked as if she was lying. Nanny Ogg had a pragmatic attitude to the truth; she told it as if it was convenient and she couldn't be bothered to make up something more interesting." --Terry Pratchett, "Lords & Ladies" And while I'm on the subject of pTerry, he's got (coincidentally enough) another wonderful Discworld book titled "The Truth", which is an excellent sendup of the print media. Highly recommended (as are all his other books!) Molly |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: GUEST Date: 28 Aug 06 - 10:06 AM Subjectivity is objective. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Amos Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:44 AM Truth is a statement which reflects the exact consideration. "I don't know" can be the truth. Truth by definition is neither subjective nor objective. This thread is absurd in its nature. But, ya know, what else is new... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Greg F. Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:35 AM "Trust Me, I'm The President Of The United States." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 27 Aug 06 - 10:55 PM "Trust me, I'm a Real Estate Agent" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Bill D Date: 27 Aug 06 - 10:15 PM One perspective on the word is this quote: "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." - Niels Bohr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: pdq Date: 27 Aug 06 - 07:06 PM On the horns of de lemon, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Peace Date: 27 Aug 06 - 06:22 PM Because if I answer truthfully, I cannot answer honestly. But if I answer honestly, I cannot answer truthfully. What it really means to be on the horns of this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Peace Date: 27 Aug 06 - 06:18 PM Truthfully? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Bill D Date: 27 Aug 06 - 06:17 PM "When a car dealer, like a politician or a lawyer, moves his lips, He's lying. Period." well, I see the direction of that, but it, obviously, is NOT true. "True love", as a common notion, is totally subjective. But saying things like "currently intense infatuation" doesn't have the same ring, does it? (is that past, pluperfect subjunctive? Like scrod?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Peace Date: 27 Aug 06 - 06:10 PM So then the next question has to be, "Is TRUTH subjunctive." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Slag Date: 27 Aug 06 - 06:05 PM When a car dealer, like a politician or a lawyer, moves his lips, He's lying. Period. So, are you saying that True Love is not for lusty teenagers? Truth as a verb is to be true. That is, to be loyal, unfailing in devotion and commitment. This just keeps getting more interesting! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Bill D Date: 27 Aug 06 - 05:59 PM Language is subjective...so if you mean something different by 'truth' than others..(and different from most formal, logical, scientific uses), then you get subjective answers. Truth, as in 'fact' should not be subjective, but when you get to issues like "what's the truth about Mel Gibson's state of mind?", it gets REAL hard to decide. The word should be avoided in cases like that, but it's just too popular... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 27 Aug 06 - 05:58 PM One has to examine the very concept: What do we mean by "truth"? To my mind, the words "true" or "truth" refer to a direct correspondence between a stated concept and reality. "It is raining outside." To this to be true, if we go outside we must find moisture descending. This is fine, for a simple statement of a physical, checkable fact. But what about statements of impressions, opinions, perceptions? Take "I love you." This seems a statement of a yes/no "fact", but its truth is not checkable--even by the speaker! Why not? Because "love" doesn't refer to only one thing. The panting, testosterone poisoned teenage lover urgently whispers in her ear that he loves her, and to his mind he may (or may not) be telling the truth, but otherwise considered "the truth" may be that he's not in love, but in lust. In other words, maybe it's true but not the truth, so to speak. Or "She's a beautiful girl." The above youth will enthusiastically agree, but what's the meaning of "beautiful"? Assuming that he's sincere, he's telling the truth as to his reaction to her charms, but the concept is so slippery that many would disagree, and say, "Oh, she's attractive, but not 'beautiful'." Suppose the used car salesman tells you, "This car has only 62,000 miles on it." He may be lying through his teeth, knowingly. Or he may think he's telling the truth, but in fact it's 90,000 miles and someone has rolled back the odometer, in which case he's telling "the truth", but it's not true. If the salesman tells you, "This would be a good choice of a car for you to buy," you have both the subjective truth/falsity of his statement to consider and also the reality (maybe he doesn't know the mechanical condition of the car, or maybe he doesn't know the customer's needs or ability to pay) of the statement of the customer fit. There are statements which are impossible of verification or refutation. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: pdq Date: 27 Aug 06 - 05:40 PM "Truth exists — only lies are invented." — Georges Braque |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Peace Date: 27 Aug 06 - 05:39 PM Does anyone know if 'truth' has been turned into a verb yet? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Greg F. Date: 27 Aug 06 - 05:38 PM It may not be truth to me - but to them, it is. And if they're delusional? Or are delusion and reality equivalen? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Peace Date: 27 Aug 06 - 05:27 PM Then my answer is this: "Yes and no." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Slag Date: 27 Aug 06 - 05:25 PM What has honesty to do with the TRUTH? One can honestly NOT KNOW. One can honestly refuse to answer. Or noe can Honestly not care. To tell you the truth, I honestly seek to be true to myself. That is the one perequist to knowing God: You can't be honest with God until you're honest with yourself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Peace Date: 27 Aug 06 - 03:34 PM Do we have to answer this question honestly? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Amos Date: 27 Aug 06 - 03:28 PM There are two distinct perspectives here. One perspective rests on the notion that in your own ultimate nature you are all the truth there is. The other requires frameworks of time, space, event and so on to define factualness which when stated accurately constitutes the truth. These frameworks are different but they are somewhat joined at the hip. Or perhaps joined BY the hip... :D A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: robomatic Date: 27 Aug 06 - 04:36 AM My favorite bumper sticker: "Reality - What a Concept!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 27 Aug 06 - 04:10 AM Pinocchio's girlfriend said "Truly, love is a many splintered thing!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Slag Date: 27 Aug 06 - 12:19 AM Truth stands alone. If you KNOW the truth and someone tries to tell you different you can weather any argument. But there are truths and there are truths. Some aren't worth the energy to defend, kind of a "so what?" truth. Some you can do prison time for or for not being truthful. You can wield "TRUTH" like a club and use it to hurt people. You can keep the truth from someone to protect that person. It is such an amazing and multi-faceted thing and worthy of much meditation. Who seeks the truth and to what end? Spaw's post while humorous DOES contain some truths which is what makes it work. Don (WYSIWYG) T"s post touches upon the informal fallacies of logic; argumentum ad bacculum, post hoc ergo proctor hoc, appeal to authority and the like. In Aristolean logic the deduction is iron clad TRUTH. In inductive reasoning you can only arrive at a degree of likelyhood and yet it is inductive reasoning that modern science is based upon and the proof of the pudding is in the tasting! It works! The question still remains. Maybe it's that we can approach TRUTH but we can't really attain it. Metaphysical and religious TRUTH is a whole other subject that's been knocking around since history began but that is being addressed in other threads. When I consider this I wonder if I can ever sit on another jury? Granted deep philosophical questions seldom come up when your considering the fate of a drunk driver or some fool who broke into someone's house or knocked off a liquor store and smiled for the video system on his way out. But it does make me wonder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 26 Aug 06 - 10:44 PM Think Pluto ?? !! Art |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: bobad Date: 26 Aug 06 - 10:28 PM Andre Gide: Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 26 Aug 06 - 10:23 PM Truth is -- whatever it is. And it is precisely that in spite of revisionist history or who is writing and spinning the latest biography. Get as close as you can. Still, you possibly/probably will not have it! After that, it is called faith... Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: bobad Date: 26 Aug 06 - 10:05 PM Life is bad enough - reality is ten times worse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Aug 06 - 10:03 PM Yes and no. ;-) Reality, as we know it, is paradoxical. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Aug 06 - 09:57 PM The Pope has a big campaign agains relativistic truth, too. What think ye about that, Bill D? -Joe Offer, Catholic Relativist- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: bobad Date: 26 Aug 06 - 09:54 PM Uh oh, methinks BillD will be weighing in on that one - he's not a big fan of relativistic truth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Aug 06 - 09:52 PM Is truth subjective? I dunno. Ask Shambles.... Here's a quote I picked up:
Architect Louis I. Kahn - My Architect -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: 282RA Date: 26 Aug 06 - 09:50 PM There's also the neocon truth: Whenever asked a question about the obvious incompetence of our president, always bring up Bill Clinton. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: GUEST,Joe_F Date: 26 Aug 06 - 09:46 PM Truth is disquotation. "It is raining" is true if & only if it is raining, "This is silly" is true if & only if this is silly, and so on. --- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: The bottom line is in hell. :|| |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 26 Aug 06 - 08:52 PM It's all greek to me... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: GUEST Date: 26 Aug 06 - 08:22 PM Okay guy quit talkin' GREEK! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: bobad Date: 26 Aug 06 - 06:43 PM "In vino veritas" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Slag Date: 26 Aug 06 - 06:05 PM "...qui est veritas?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 26 Aug 06 - 08:00 AM "Is TRUTH subjective?" Maybe yes, and maybe no. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Paul Burke Date: 26 Aug 06 - 06:08 AM A mathematical truth is one which is consistent with the axiomatic basis from which it is derived. Nothing more or less. A scientific truth is a statement which is useful in that testable predictions can be made from it, and all tests of its predictions have so far proved accurate. All scientific truths are therefore provisional. In a court case, you may swear to tell the whole truth, but you can't do that with yes/no answers, so the court actually requires you to do conflicting things. But then, the legal system is rarely concerned with truth in any of its many meanings. I'll leave it to others to talk about emotional and religious truths. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Aug 06 - 05:09 AM Just as with reality, truth comes several ways. The truth is the truth but mine may be different then yours. There can be only one real truth but the possibilities for perceived truths can be endless. In general though, it doesn't matter. Lies are a far better medium of exchange as the late, great Allen Sheman proved in the following: *************WHY LIES ARE BETTER THAN THE TRUTH************A Scientific Comparison I. CREDIBILITY: All lies are designed to seem true. The expert liar carefully uses elements that seem probable and logical and therefore easy to believe. On the other hand, The Truth is often illogical, wildly improbable and hard to explain. Summary: Lies are more believable than the truth. II. RELIABILITY: The Truth is spontaneous, accidental and unpredictable. Lies however can be planned in detail long in advance and are thus guaranteed to turn out just as predicted. Summary: Lies are more dependable than The Truth. III. ECONOMY: To be The Truth, an account of a given event must be completely accurate. This requires painstaking resourcefulness, expensive research, time consuming attention to detail, complex logistics and thoroughness. In spite of all that, some people will believe it and others will not. A lie will produce the same results without all the fuss and bother. Summary: Lies are simpler than The Truth; Lies cost less than Truth in time, money, and effort. IV. VALUE: The Truth can be found anywhere; it belongs to anyone who finds it, absolutely free. Lies are custom-made, often by experts, and the best ones are highly polished works of art. Summary: Lies are worth more money than Truth. Have you ever heard of anybody bribing a witness to tell The Truth? V. RESPECTABILITY: A) Great fortunes have been made by selling Lies to the public. The people who sell these lies are often grateful to the gullible consumers, so they endow libraries and universities and cultural centers. B) Nobody ever made a fortune selling The Truth. First of all, as already stated, The Truth is free. The only people who will pay money for The Truth are people who are being blackmailed--and they are only buying The Truth so they can hide it before anybody else sees it. Summary: Lies lead to libraries and universities, while The Truth leads to blackmail. VI. STABILITY: A) Take 1000 parts Truth, add 1 part Lie. Result: A Lie. B) Take 1000 parts Lie, add 1 part Truth. Result: Again, a Lie. C) Note that you can make a Lie out of The Truth, but you can't make The Truth out of a Lie. Summary: Lies are stronger and last longer than The Truth. VII. IMAGINATION: In reporting The Truth, a person must research the precise facts and stick to them exactly as they occurred. The liar can report the same incident without doing any research, merely saying whatever comes to his mind and filling in "details" according to his fancy. Summary: Lies are more creative than The Truth. VIII. RECOGNIZABILITY: People are accustomed to hearing lies all the time. Summary: If you tell The Truth, people will think you are lying and if you convince them you are telling The Truth, they will become suspicious. (Why is he suddenly telling The Truth? What's going on?) IX. SUPPLY & DEMAND: In describing any given incident, only one version can be The Truth, whereas the number of Lies possible is unlimited. Obviously, Lies are in far greater supply than The Truth. Frankly, there is a great demand for Lies, if they are flattering, if they build up one's hopes, if they help one escape reality, or if they promise wealth, health, power, or potency. Nobody is very anxious to hear The Truth. The only people who demand The Truth are those who are investigating something (lawyers, etc.)--and they only want The Truth to prove somebody is lying. Summary: Lies are the acceptable medium of exchange in our society. They are in good supply and the demand for them remains strong. The Truth is in extremely short supply and even this tiny supply far exceeds the demand. Thus in our society, The Truth occupies a position identical to that of dinosaur shit. CONCLUSION: Lies are superior to The Truth in numerous ways. Lies are ingenious; Lies make the world seem more pleasant; Lies are less embarrassing than Truth and less frightening. Furthermore, in fields such as diplomacy, statesmanship, merchandising, advertising, public realtions, and bookkeeping, The Truth is an out-and-out handicap. In friendship, Truth is harmful; in love, it is disastrous. The Truth is that The Truth has become old fashioned. Its full of odd shaped little nooks and crannies like so many old fashioned things; some people find them fascinating, but most people find them a pain in the neck. To find all the joys that go along with handling of and handing on The Truth is a labor of love, but most of us in today's society have no time for such things. ********************************************************************* Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 26 Aug 06 - 05:01 AM What is truth? How many of the available answers would you like to hear? Salesman's truth:- Whatever I can persuade you to believe, based on your lack of knowledge of my product. Strong man's truth:- Whatever I say it is, and if you call me a liar I'll flatten you. Politician's truth:- Whatever I allow you to see and hear through the media (and I control media output). Voter's truth:- Whichever part of the argument best fits my personal needs and prejudices. Child's truth:- 1. (Incoming) Whatever Mum and Dad tell me. 2. (Outgoing) Whatever lie will protect me from being punished. Now, what was that about truth being absolute? Dream on. Don T. |
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Subject: BS: Is TRUTH subjective? From: Slag Date: 26 Aug 06 - 04:26 AM There is mathmatical truth which until "String Theory" seemed to convey an intrinsic quality of correctness or "truth". What else qualifies? If you are sworn in as a witness in a court case you aver to tell the Truth, the Whole Truth and nothing but the Truth--- then they begin trying to make you answer yes or no to questions that beg explanation. Are they getting the Whole Truth? Are you telling the Whole Truth? What's the Truth? |
