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BS: Is TRUTH subjective?

GUEST,Mrr 30 Aug 06 - 10:27 AM
Dave Masterson 30 Aug 06 - 04:15 AM
GUEST,Joe_F 29 Aug 06 - 10:22 PM
Donuel 28 Aug 06 - 10:26 PM
Slag 28 Aug 06 - 10:03 PM
The Fooles Troupe 28 Aug 06 - 09:22 PM
GUEST, Eb 28 Aug 06 - 06:21 PM
Bill D 28 Aug 06 - 06:11 PM
Joe Offer 28 Aug 06 - 05:52 PM
Scoville 28 Aug 06 - 01:49 PM
Uncle_DaveO 28 Aug 06 - 01:12 PM
Amos 28 Aug 06 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,Chief Chaos 28 Aug 06 - 12:57 PM
harpmolly 28 Aug 06 - 11:52 AM
GUEST 28 Aug 06 - 10:06 AM
Amos 28 Aug 06 - 09:44 AM
Greg F. 28 Aug 06 - 09:35 AM
The Fooles Troupe 27 Aug 06 - 10:55 PM
Bill D 27 Aug 06 - 10:15 PM
pdq 27 Aug 06 - 07:06 PM
Peace 27 Aug 06 - 06:22 PM
Peace 27 Aug 06 - 06:18 PM
Bill D 27 Aug 06 - 06:17 PM
Peace 27 Aug 06 - 06:10 PM
Slag 27 Aug 06 - 06:05 PM
Bill D 27 Aug 06 - 05:59 PM
Uncle_DaveO 27 Aug 06 - 05:58 PM
pdq 27 Aug 06 - 05:40 PM
Peace 27 Aug 06 - 05:39 PM
Greg F. 27 Aug 06 - 05:38 PM
Peace 27 Aug 06 - 05:27 PM
Slag 27 Aug 06 - 05:25 PM
Peace 27 Aug 06 - 03:34 PM
Amos 27 Aug 06 - 03:28 PM
robomatic 27 Aug 06 - 04:36 AM
The Fooles Troupe 27 Aug 06 - 04:10 AM
Slag 27 Aug 06 - 12:19 AM
GUEST,Art Thieme 26 Aug 06 - 10:44 PM
bobad 26 Aug 06 - 10:28 PM
GUEST,Art Thieme 26 Aug 06 - 10:23 PM
bobad 26 Aug 06 - 10:05 PM
Little Hawk 26 Aug 06 - 10:03 PM
Joe Offer 26 Aug 06 - 09:57 PM
bobad 26 Aug 06 - 09:54 PM
Joe Offer 26 Aug 06 - 09:52 PM
282RA 26 Aug 06 - 09:50 PM
GUEST,Joe_F 26 Aug 06 - 09:46 PM
The Fooles Troupe 26 Aug 06 - 08:52 PM
GUEST 26 Aug 06 - 08:22 PM
bobad 26 Aug 06 - 06:43 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 10:27 AM

Short answer: Yes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Dave Masterson
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 04:15 AM

The truth is the truth, no matter what we as individuals may think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 10:22 PM

The short way to a contempt citation: "If I could tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, I'd *be* God."

--- Joe Fineman    joe_f@verizon.net

||: Wealth, like happiness, is best attained while pursuing something else. :||


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 10:26 PM

Truth can be perception
Propaganda truth can be repetition,
so that a legend can become the truth


George Bush is on point
He is walkin the walk
He is holding the course
He is talkin the talk
He is cool under fire
He is speakin his mind
He is bringing it on
He is smokin him out and bringin him to justice.
I was in New Orleans 2 days after Katrina*

* he said that one just today.


...I love the Douglas Adam references...


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Slag
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 10:03 PM

Aside from the humor (negligible) aspect of the car dealer, there is no such thing as a car dealer. Language creates is own reality, or un-reality if you will. There are human beings who work to sell cars and while it may be true that as they perform that act of attempting to sell someone a car, they lie, it is also very probable that when engaged in other verbal intercouse in their lives, they do not lie or they do not lie as much or knowingly. We tend to generalize and in generalizing we stereotype, generally!

And how about hypocracy? You gotta love it. It's oil to the machinery of social interactions. We couldn't live without it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:22 PM

... whereas 'toothiness' is a 'purelydental' matter...


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: GUEST, Eb
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 06:21 PM

'Truthiness' on the other hand is negotiable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 06:11 PM

"It's the truth, it's actch'll
Ev'rything is satisfactch'll"

Zippity-doo-dah - from "Song of the South"


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 05:52 PM

If you have to assert that it's the truth, then it's probably only your opinion.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Scoville
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 01:49 PM

Amen, dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 01:12 PM

To answer the founding question, "Is TRUTH subjective?", the answer has to be: Of course!"

"The truth" always involves something beyond a mere statement of (as Amos so nicely said) "the hard-cornered mechanical facts". That difference always includes some degree of attitude, prejudice, editing, emphasis, etc., and those things are necessarily subjective.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 01:00 PM

Exactly the point, indirectly. The intersection where the absolute Truth of being, ad the hard-cornered mechanical truth of events in a time-space continuum coincide, is a very troubled theater indeed.

Let us wash our hands.



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 12:57 PM

And then there's Douglas Adams' classic Hitchhikers Guide where a trial witness was given truth serum, only he was administered too much and when told to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth did so! They walled him off to protect the citizens of the galaxy. Too much truth can be a harmful thing!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: harpmolly
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 11:52 AM

"The trouble with Nanny Ogg was that she *always* looked as if she was lying. Nanny Ogg had a pragmatic attitude to the truth; she told it as if it was convenient and she couldn't be bothered to make up something more interesting." --Terry Pratchett, "Lords & Ladies"

And while I'm on the subject of pTerry, he's got (coincidentally enough) another wonderful Discworld book titled "The Truth", which is an excellent sendup of the print media. Highly recommended (as are all his other books!)

Molly


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 10:06 AM

Subjectivity is objective.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:44 AM

Truth is a statement which reflects the exact consideration. "I don't know" can be the truth.

Truth by definition is neither subjective nor objective. This thread is absurd in its nature.

But, ya know, what else is new...


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:35 AM

"Trust Me, I'm The President Of The United States."


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 10:55 PM

"Trust me, I'm a Real Estate Agent"


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 10:15 PM

One perspective on the word is this quote:


"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth."   - Niels Bohr


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: pdq
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 07:06 PM

On the horns of de lemon, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 06:22 PM

Because if I answer truthfully, I cannot answer honestly. But if I answer honestly, I cannot answer truthfully. What it really means to be on the horns of this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 06:18 PM

Truthfully?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 06:17 PM

"When a car dealer, like a politician or a lawyer, moves his lips, He's lying. Period."

well, I see the direction of that, but it, obviously, is NOT true.

"True love", as a common notion, is totally subjective. But saying things like "currently intense infatuation" doesn't have the same ring, does it?


(is that past, pluperfect subjunctive? Like scrod?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 06:10 PM

So then the next question has to be, "Is TRUTH subjunctive."


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Slag
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 06:05 PM

When a car dealer, like a politician or a lawyer, moves his lips, He's lying. Period.

So, are you saying that True Love is not for lusty teenagers? Truth as a verb is to be true. That is, to be loyal, unfailing in devotion and commitment. This just keeps getting more interesting!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 05:59 PM

Language is subjective...so if you mean something different by 'truth' than others..(and different from most formal, logical, scientific uses), then you get subjective answers.

Truth, as in 'fact' should not be subjective, but when you get to issues like "what's the truth about Mel Gibson's state of mind?", it gets REAL hard to decide. The word should be avoided in cases like that, but it's just too popular...


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 05:58 PM

One has to examine the very concept: What do we mean by "truth"?

To my mind, the words "true" or "truth" refer to a direct correspondence between a stated concept and reality. "It is raining outside." To this to be true, if we go outside we must find moisture descending.

This is fine, for a simple statement of a physical, checkable fact.

But what about statements of impressions, opinions, perceptions? Take
"I love you." This seems a statement of a yes/no "fact", but its truth is not checkable--even by the speaker! Why not? Because "love" doesn't refer to only one thing. The panting, testosterone poisoned teenage lover urgently whispers in her ear that he loves her, and to his mind he may (or may not) be telling the truth, but otherwise considered "the truth" may be that he's not in love, but in lust. In other words, maybe it's true but not the truth, so to speak.

Or "She's a beautiful girl." The above youth will enthusiastically agree, but what's the meaning of "beautiful"? Assuming that he's sincere, he's telling the truth as to his reaction to her charms, but the concept is so slippery that many would disagree, and say, "Oh, she's attractive, but not 'beautiful'."

Suppose the used car salesman tells you, "This car has only 62,000 miles on it." He may be lying through his teeth, knowingly. Or he may think he's telling the truth, but in fact it's 90,000 miles and someone has rolled back the odometer, in which case he's telling "the truth", but it's not true.

If the salesman tells you, "This would be a good choice of a car for you to buy," you have both the subjective truth/falsity of his statement to consider and also the reality (maybe he doesn't know the mechanical condition of the car, or maybe he doesn't know the customer's needs or ability to pay) of the statement of the customer fit.

There are statements which are impossible of verification or refutation.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: pdq
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 05:40 PM

"Truth exists — only lies are invented." — Georges Braque


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 05:39 PM

Does anyone know if 'truth' has been turned into a verb yet?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 05:38 PM

It may not be truth to me - but to them, it is.

And if they're delusional?

Or are delusion and reality equivalen?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 05:27 PM

Then my answer is this: "Yes and no."


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Slag
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 05:25 PM

What has honesty to do with the TRUTH? One can honestly NOT KNOW. One can honestly refuse to answer. Or noe can Honestly not care. To tell you the truth, I honestly seek to be true to myself. That is the one perequist to knowing God: You can't be honest with God until you're honest with yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 03:34 PM

Do we have to answer this question honestly?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 03:28 PM

There are two distinct perspectives here. One perspective rests on the notion that in your own ultimate nature you are all the truth there is.

The other requires frameworks of time, space, event and so on to define factualness which when stated accurately constitutes the truth.

These frameworks are different but they are somewhat joined at the hip. Or perhaps joined BY the hip... :D




A


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 04:36 AM

My favorite bumper sticker:

"Reality - What a Concept!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 04:10 AM

Pinocchio's girlfriend said "Truly, love is a many splintered thing!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Slag
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 12:19 AM

Truth stands alone. If you KNOW the truth and someone tries to tell you different you can weather any argument. But there are truths and there are truths. Some aren't worth the energy to defend, kind of a "so what?" truth. Some you can do prison time for or for not being truthful. You can wield "TRUTH" like a club and use it to hurt people. You can keep the truth from someone to protect that person. It is such an amazing and multi-faceted thing and worthy of much meditation. Who seeks the truth and to what end? Spaw's post while humorous DOES contain some truths which is what makes it work. Don (WYSIWYG) T"s post touches upon the informal fallacies of logic; argumentum ad bacculum, post hoc ergo proctor hoc, appeal to authority and the like. In Aristolean logic the deduction is iron clad TRUTH. In inductive reasoning you can only arrive at a degree of likelyhood and yet it is inductive reasoning that modern science is based upon and the proof of the pudding is in the tasting! It works! The question still remains. Maybe it's that we can approach TRUTH but we can't really attain it. Metaphysical and religious TRUTH is a whole other subject that's been knocking around since history began but that is being addressed in other threads.

When I consider this I wonder if I can ever sit on another jury? Granted deep philosophical questions seldom come up when your considering the fate of a drunk driver or some fool who broke into someone's house or knocked off a liquor store and smiled for the video system on his way out. But it does make me wonder.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 10:44 PM

Think Pluto ?? !!

Art


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: bobad
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 10:28 PM

Andre Gide:

    Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 10:23 PM

Truth is -- whatever it is. And it is precisely that in spite of revisionist history or who is writing and spinning the latest biography. Get as close as you can. Still, you possibly/probably will not have it!

After that, it is called faith...

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: bobad
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 10:05 PM

Life is bad enough - reality is ten times worse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 10:03 PM

Yes and no. ;-) Reality, as we know it, is paradoxical.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 09:57 PM

The Pope has a big campaign agains relativistic truth, too.
What think ye about that, Bill D?
-Joe Offer, Catholic Relativist-


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: bobad
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 09:54 PM

Uh oh, methinks BillD will be weighing in on that one - he's not a big fan of relativistic truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 09:52 PM

Is truth subjective? I dunno. Ask Shambles....


Here's a quote I picked up:
    Everything that everybody says is the truth...It's THEIR truth - but it might not be factual.
    Architect Louis I. Kahn - My Architect
That helps me respect the opinion of others a little more. It may not be truth to me - but to them, it is.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: 282RA
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 09:50 PM

There's also the neocon truth:

Whenever asked a question about the obvious incompetence of our president, always bring up Bill Clinton.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 09:46 PM

Truth is disquotation. "It is raining" is true if & only if it is raining, "This is silly" is true if & only if this is silly, and so on.

--- Joe Fineman    joe_f@verizon.net

||: The bottom line is in hell. :||


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 08:52 PM

It's all greek to me...


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 08:22 PM

Okay guy quit talkin' GREEK!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is TRUTH subjective?
From: bobad
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 06:43 PM

"In vino veritas"


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