BS:The Death Penalty

Subject: The Death Penalty
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 06:31 AM

With the recent killing in London of a young man trying to protect his family from a bunch of yobs who were terrorising him it has struck me as ironic that in a society that apparently does not condone the death penalty we already have one! the only trouble is it is the lawbreakers who get to use it while the lawmakers do not! How many more instances of Capital Punishment being meted out by gangs of miscreants does it take before something is done to stop it!
Anybody got any ideas?

Subject: RE: The Death Panalty
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 06:37 AM

yes put this isn the BS Section

Subject: RE: The Death Panalty
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:05 AM

So you would execute the boy accused of killing the young man then ?

eric

Subject: RE: The Death Panalty
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 08:06 AM

I think it should be awarded against anyone who spells "penalty" as "panalty".

Subject: RE: The Death Panalty
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 08:11 AM

Funny how this crap always originates with "guests". Do these wasters usually shove someone's door open, shoot their mouth off, and depart?

Subject: RE: The Death Panalty
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 08:44 AM

I think the death penalty should only be used (if ever) for offences which affect the fabric of society in the broadest sense.

Murder, while obviously a heinous crime, is usually unpremeditated and while obviously having a terrible effect on the families of the victim, tends to have a very localised effect.

Double parking, on the other hand, can jam up a high street for a whole morning and lead to the loss of hundreds of working hours and inconvenience dozens of people. Likewise littering, overtaking on the inside and riding a bicycle on the pavement. I think it's time we started looking as a society at the really serious crimes.

Subject: RE: The Death Panalty
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 08:49 AM

Down, down, to the BS section!

Subject: RE: The Death Panalty
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 09:17 AM

...and as for dogshit...

Subject: RE: The Death Panalty
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 09:26 AM

As Heinlein put it,
"An armed society is a polite society."
Unfortunately, someone told the British public that they should not defend themselves, so this type of situation will only get worse.

Subject: RE: The Death Panalty
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 09:32 AM

Of course! Let's all get guns! That works.

Subject: RE: The Death Penalty
From: GUEST,Bruce Baillie
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 09:35 AM

...OK folks, lets leave aside the fact I made the cardinal sins of A. spelling the word 'Penalty' wrongly and B. putting the thread in the wrong section, for which I apologise on both counts.
I expected this thread to cause some adverse comment judging by some of the stuff I've seen on similar threads before now.
Paul, why am I a waster for trying to stimulate some debate? I thought we were all reasonable people who came on here to give opinions and get feedback? which is what I am saying? what is the answer? If you actually read and understand what I said you'll notice that nowhere in the thread do I actually promote Capital Punishment, I merely said it was already going on! Again I ask, has anyone got any ideas how this sort of thing can be stopped WITHOUT anyone losing their life!

Subject: RE: The Death Panalty
From: kendall
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 09:39 AM

Life without parole.

Subject: RE: The Death Panalty
From: Midchuck
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 09:55 AM

The Larry Niven Solution.

Lock him away. From time to time, harvest whatever organs or extremities that can be removed without killing him/her, for transplant to people who need them more than someone who's never going to be let out anyway.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 10:16 AM

I think a better solution is to bring back the concept of 'outlaws'. People who live outside the law by commiting crimes should be punished by having their own legal rights removed. No prison costs. No execution costs. Lets just see how long they last with no right to protection from the people they are committing crimes against:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 10:25 AM

Dave the Gnome, are you suggesting that they be branded? And if a man is a thief, perhaps his right hand should be removed?

Or perhaps like Cain, after he killed his brother, the murderer should have some other kind of sign on him that would signal people that he is fair game?

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 10:27 AM

Nah - branding is far to old hat. What's wrong with flashing led's embedded into the forehead.

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 10:37 AM

Weapons do not have to be guns. A dozen angry citizens who will rush to help the guy being attacked is a good idea. The big problem today is everyone runs away from their responsibility to defend each other. Yes, this is the first century where people do not carry weapons, and in my opinion it is not becoming a better one. But what makes it that way is the avoidance of social responsibility to act.

Ask any police officer in Toronto, they will tell you the community is the problem. When they act it's racism, when they arrest it's wrongfull, when they charge it is thrown out of court or a minor penalty issued. No consequences means more crime. Unless the community act together to stop children becoming thugs, the problem will get worse. There is little or no real discipline in schools, and neighbours are not minding what the kids are up to. If you try to discipline kids you get accused of child abuse and assault.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: jacqui.c
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 10:49 AM

And the prisons in the UK are full to overflowing. It seems that prisoners are being released early as a result and that magistrates have been told to give bail rather than have people on remand.

There doesn't seem to be much of a deterrent to wrongdoers at all and they all seem to know their rights inside and out.

Maybe we don't have to use flashing lights - what about tatoos?

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 10:50 AM

Include me with Kendall. Oh, and add 'hard labour' too.
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 11:05 AM

I think we should go farther. Like a scarlet A embroidered on a gown.

These ideas are not what one would call "new".

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Becca72
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 11:12 AM

Use 'em for medical research/product testing. Rabbits don't wear mascara, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 11:45 AM

Now that's a lot better folks, a stimulating debate, there are some good comments coming out now! The way the law is going here in the UK with less and less crimes being punishable by jailing I'm just wondering how long it is going to be before they are not going to bother jailing murderers at all, in fact why have a legal system? the government are already talking about not teaching children the difference between right and wrong at school, where will it all end?

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Old Guy
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 12:01 PM

Wow. I expected mostly anti-death penalty postings here but I am surprised at how many support it. I support it.

It seems to me that if the anti-death penalty people. anti-war people and the medical community get their way, no one will ever die.

What will we do with all these people? Stack them up in mile high buildings? Eventually we will still run out of space. And who will support them when they retire? Where will the food come from?

If we have a zero birth rate, eventually everybody will be retired.

I say when some commits a crime against someone else, they have taken the civil rights away from that person and forfeited their own civil rights. They do not have any civil rights.

Life without parole? That means the government is required to give them heart transplants etc. to keep them alive as long as possible. If they are not killers, give them a pardon when they reach 70. If they are killers, give them the same consideration they gave their victims.

And Lawyers be damned. Here in the US we have rule by Lawyers, not rule by law. For example OJ Simpson is found innocent of murder in a criminal trial but guilty in a civil trial. How's that work? The guy is either guilty or innocent, not both. From what little I know about I admire the justice system in the UK.

I can't figure out how the legal system in the US got so out of control what with corporations claiming the same rights as a human being.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: pdq
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 12:05 PM

In a normal day, the following number of US citizens is/are killed by...

               MURDER(all types including manslaughter): 78

               IRAQ WAR:                                                                1

               EXECUTION (state-ordered death penalty)         0

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 12:58 PM

Ian Brady wishes to die, so why cant he be put to sleep humanely, like a dog.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Old Guy
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 01:20 PM

PDQ:

To present a broader picture you should include the major causes of death like auto accidents.

Another thing that people do not understand is that thousands of Military people are killed every year in accident that have nothing to do with actions in Iraq and Afghanistan.

For instance, from 1980 to 1989 the military averaged 2,123 deaths a year. Most from accidents (375 from hostile or terrorist activity). In 1991, 1,787 died on military duty. Of those 147 were KIA in the Gulf War.

In 2003 we suffered 1,410 military deaths, of which, 560 were a result of hostile action. In 2004 it was 1,887, of which 565 were a result of hostile action.

http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=3609

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 01:20 PM

Opposition to the death penalty is very much like opposition to eating meat.....it is often based on reasoning that has little relevance to societal needs or practicality. The ONLY really good argument against it is that sometimes totally innocent people get convicted.

In prisons (and, sadly, out of prisons) there are many, many people who, in this increasingly chaotic world, serve little function other than to make work for law enforcement and provide grist for the mill that churns out crime movies and keeps Jerry Springer in business. We need to deal with this soon, or I predict, the sentiment against the death penalty will be tempered by sentiment in favor of safety and fewer tax dollars going to house those who cannot be trusted with freedom.

(No...this does NOT mean I am advocating wholesale executions of everyone I don't like, only that I don't think some abstract notion of 'the value of human life' is going to remain the overriding principle in a society where it is disdained by so many already.)

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: kendall
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 02:20 PM

Are we talking about justice, or revenge?

The difference between a criminal case and a civil one is simply this: In a criminal case the state must prove the subject guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In a civil case, they must prove it by "A preponderence of evidence" Big difference. And the reason is quite sensible; if you are going to convict a person of murder, you had better be as certain as you can that he/she is guilty, because taking a person's life is not something to be taken lightly. On the other hand, taking his football trophy is not nearly as serious.
O.J. was not found innocent. He was found not guilty. I believe in the UK they say "not proven" which is closer to the truth.
It always amazes me how many "Christians" want the death penalty. The two simply do not jibe!

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 02:41 PM

innocent until proven guilty is very important.
but when someone like IAN BRADY, WHO HAS ADMITTED HIS GUILT AND WANTS TO DIE. what is the point of keeping him alive, he is not safe to return to society[ neither can his own protection be guaranteed].why not allow him to die in as a humane a way as possible even if he doesnt deserve it, .

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Old Guy
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 02:46 PM

Maybe the Christians remember the Coliseum.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 03:10 PM

You can't kill people just because they say they want to die.

Its a bad principle. I would have killed my wife a couple of times when she first got bad rheumatoid arthritis in her 20's. She has gone one to run a support group and save the lives of innumerable other people whose starting point has been that they say they want to die.

In fact its a bad thing to kill people. that's why only bad people do it happily and without regrets. Good people who do it in wartime - or law officers in the course of their duty protecting us - they usually are left a bit traumatised at some level.

See the review of Pierrepoint in this weeks Radio Times. This film is said to Timothy Spall's greatest role, has won major international awards, and so far is virtually unseen in English cinemas.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Scoville
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 03:33 PM

I think a better solution is to bring back the concept of 'outlaws'. People who live outside the law by commiting crimes should be punished by having their own legal rights removed. No prison costs. No execution costs. Lets just see how long they last with no right to protection from the people they are committing crimes against.

We pretty much have that system here in Texas. It doesn't work very well. Most of these people live outside of normal, functional, society anyway so removing their legal rights makes essentially no difference. Unfortunately, there are too many people getting caught in the crossfire.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: jacqui.c
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 03:40 PM

Kendall - Not Proven is only used in Scotland. Shame really.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: kendall
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 04:26 PM

Ok, I was wrong and it didn't hurt a bit to admit it.

Under God's law NO ONE has the right to take another's life, be it an indivual or the state. Capital punishment is nothing but sanctioned homicide.That's not justice, it's revenge.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 06:20 PM

I like zero population growth. It implies fornication without procreation.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 06:33 PM

Captain, how about when guys like you and I make a judgement about safety and use our weapons? I am just using a fer instance here. I ask this purely for discussion sake. I think it is safe to say that if you were to draw your weapon, someone would die if they didn't make the right move very quickly. I can assure you that would be the case with me. We also know that the weapon is never going to break leather unless very rigid conditions are met, but what if we had too?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: kendall
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 09:47 PM

It goes without saying that self defense is the only exception. I would however, extend it to loved ones, or even an unarmed victim in the process of being raped or killed.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 11:27 PM

Read this one and tell me how you'd vote.

I used this as a lesson for my son who can never understand what he considers "fun" might not be by someone else. I doubt he learned it but maybe he'll remember this story.

The kids here were wrong but this asshole was waaaayyy over the line. Be sure to listen to the interview. No remorse at all. Admits he never called the police (had "bad" relations and had been "ill-served" he says) and then blames the teens. Yep....they WERE wrong but not all THAT wrong. I want this fruitcake in jail til his balls fall off.

Have fun reading and listening and watching

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 11:52 PM

A great example of what not to do with firearm. This idiot needs to be in jail a long time.

Your lesson to the boy is a good one. The only thing I can say in defense of the girl is that she didn't deserve to be shot. But they were screwing with these people, and a tragedy occurred.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Partridge
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 01:03 AM

No, don't believe in the death penalty. In fact the opposite, make them live as long as possible in the service of others - victims or victims family. In the hope of understanding there actions and giving them a chance to atone. A childish view perhaps. Life is a big school room and no one should cut short the lesson we are here to learn.

Pat x

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: mrdux
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:33 AM

"The ONLY really good argument against it is that sometimes totally innocent people get convicted." And executed.

isn't that standing alone a good enough argument against the death penalty?

michael

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 03:26 AM

The guy looks like he should be made an EXCEPTION to the 'Right to Bear Arms' (& dont get me started on THAT anyway...) ...ok perhaps judging him harshly, & on his appearance as much as his deeds, but if that isnt some disaffected social misfit, then I have never seen one.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 04:15 AM

Mick and Paul......I agree on all counts.

"Philosophically" I am against the death penalty but for me the fact of the matter is different. We are not so far out of the trees and our reptilian brain surfaces easily saying, "Kill the thing."

And I want to......

And I would.

What slows me (us?) are higher level ideas of behavior, a desire to lean towards rational thought and away from barbarism. Again though, we are just not so far out of the trees.

I refused military service in Vietnam not out of the belief that killing was wrong and I couldn't do it but rather that I knew with absolute certainty that I would. The question was how did I live with that later since like Muhammed Ali, I "didn't have nothing agaisnt them Congs." But were I the father of that girl who may have acted foolishly but also quite innocently, I have no doubt that if she died nothing on earth would stop me from exacting revenge.

This sad fact came home to me the other day at about the same time I heard the news story above which happened just a few miles away from me. My autistic son Tristan is going to start working as part of his educational process. We are so happy with the unbelievable progress he continues to make and Karen that I are almost "giddy" with the excitement as he begins this new journey. Towards that end I was given a permission form to sign, a part of which stated that should something happen on the job we would take full responsibility, a fairly standard wording on such forms. I had used a similar form when I taught in Vocational Education and parents all signed.

I made the notation on the form that should someone be found neglgent we WOULD hold them responsible but even as I wrote it I suddenly knew that any words on paper didn't matter. Were someone to cause injury or death to my son I was sure how I would react, what I would do......and I sat there staring at the form, scared and sweating, because I had once again seen the reptile inside.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: GUEST,Bruce Baillie
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 06:16 AM

...Well so far I like the 'Outlaw' concept and the one about making the criminal atone for his misdeeds by having them work for the victims family for the rest of his life!

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 06:28 AM

Bear in mind, these are people who usually can't be forced to serve and support their own families even.

Taking a functionalist view of the situation, perhaps the only role these people have in society is to remind us that whatever the provocation, we don't lower ourselves to killing people.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 06:44 AM

but if a burglar broke into my house,and I happened to interrupt him and in the ensuing scuffle I accidentally killed him, It being a case of him attempting to kill me, and me killing in self defence.
      I honestly dont believe you [wee little drummer], if you said to the burglar its wrong to take a life[ next thing is wee little drummer is accompanying the angels on his djembe drum]

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 07:22 AM

Wall, a society either believes in the sanctity of life or it doesn't and if it has capital punishment it can't say it is in the believer category... That is hypocritical...

And for those who would argue that capital punishment is a deterrant to murder just look at the murder rates in the United States... That argument kinda gets blown thwe heck out of the water...

Actually, the justice system in the United States isn't about correction or rehabilitation but revenge... And I find it curious how so many so-called Christians say they support capital punishment when it is so clearly in conflict with the scriptures...

So for this ol' hillbilly: no capital punishment + reorganizing correctional facilities away from vengence toward real rehibiliation (its a bargain in terms of $$$...)...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 09:13 AM

Birdseye,

Take your point about Brady. However, the chief argument against letting him choose his fate is that as a dangerous mental patient he should not be free to direct his own treatment - which makes sense in most cases.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 10:00 AM

Exactly ...thats how the USA got into its present mess. They let Gary Gilmore decide he was going to get himself killed and the lemmings of legislature have been dancing to this madman's tune ever since.

No Captain - shoot the bugger by all means. I was appalled at what happened to Tony Martin ( for non UK people - a man who shot a burglar and went to jail for it). If you allowed that generally though - remember there some people on very short fuses out there. And it wouldn't be too long before someone got shot for walking on another blokes grass.

I think the best plan is to say its not allowed to kill people, then use a bit of intelligence and discretion - something that seems beyond the powers of most high court judges.

Subject: RE: BS:The Death Penalty
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 11:25 AM

I'd be for the death penalty but for one small problem - innocent people have been found guilty and executed, and that risk just can't be taken. Imagine yourself in the situation of Timothy Evans, or the "Let him have it" guy (sorry, hopeless with names), standing over the drop, about to be put to death for something you didn't do by the very people who should be protecting you. Horrific.

If anyone can find a way to avoid that ever (and I mean E-V-E-R) happening again, then they can hang the bastards.

Until that happens (and it never will), I stand by Life without parole and with hard labour (preferably for society's benefit, not just rock-breaking).
S:0)