Warning to Festival Organisers

Subject: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 08:04 AM

There is a person who's name I vaugely know who is a professional complainer.

Bob Berry resigned from Chippenham for 8 hours because of it - thankfully he calmed down. Sandra at Shrewsbury had to deal with him - but I got an eyeball of him that day.

Basically he enjoys complaining at length and at Chippenham two years running - loudly and six inches from your face.

Ask Bob or Sandra at Festival Organisers meetings for a better description. But ask - if he is not yet known to you. I think he specialises in big festivals but he may have run out of them.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: erinmaidin
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 08:45 AM

performer? back-stage hanger on? attendee?

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 01:15 PM

attendee

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Peace
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 02:11 PM

Why doesn't someone tell him two words? The ones taht come to mind are 'sex' and 'travel'.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: skipy
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 02:16 PM

I resign every year, it's the nature of the beast, how the hell Bob manages with a beast the size of his festival I will never know!
Sat and had a couple of relaxing beers with him at Towersay 3 days ago.
Thanks Steve.
Skipy

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 02:23 PM

Not too sure if one can make a living as 'professional complainer'. But I think we know what you mean by this and this assessment of this (still unidentified) individual may well be right. But how is anyone to know if an individual they may be having complaints from is the same individual?

But just as a professional organiser may not always be all that organised - so all the complaints made by a so-called professional complainer may not be groundless. Perhaps it is wise not to dismiss complaints just because of where they may be coming from, the manner they are expressed or the number of them?

After all, it is the the complaint that needs investigating - for we are all capable of getting things wrong. And even if we are not getting it wrong - things can always be improved.

But if you don't want to accept that you may have cocked-up or that your best efforts could be improved - it is rather an easy option just carry on and to place the blame on the one complaining.

I wonder if such warnings as this would be issued about any 'professional praisers' of the efforts of all festival organisers - no matter how disorganised the resulting festivals may be? Perhaps these would be doing more damage?

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 03:55 AM

Name names.

eric

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 04:01 AM

Once identified should be 'warned off'and advised that he is a trespasser

Ray

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: jonm
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 06:42 AM

I would imagine from the original post that what we are dealing with is someone who, although they may have a valid complaint about organisation or services, will blow it out of all proportion and pursue it aggressively to the point of offensiveness.

I get a lot of these in my work. A number are aggressive people, rude people, sometimes because they are not articulate enough to understand their own issues.

The first thing I establish is what they actually want by way of a resolution, BEFORE they launch into a wild tirade, i.e. do they want their money back, are they trying to improve the system etc. This stops a lot of moaners in their tracks. The more they ask for, the more I stress I will need to investigate their complaint fully and independently in their absence.

Once I've established what their expectations are, I then listen to their complaints. If they shout or become abusive, I ask them to go away until they have calmed down to the point of reasonableness. I have an assistant who can remove them if necessary. As they go on, I distinguish subjective and objective information in the way I deal with each statement. If there is a factual problem (e.g. programme running late), I gather data ("how late? were people made aware of this as the problem arose?"). I deal more severely with subjective issues ("It was crap." "What qualifies you to judge the quality of this?").

I then have a list of their fact-based issues, plus their contact details. I tell them to go away and I will write to them once a full investigation has been conducted. I insist on no further contact with them until they have received my letter.

I ALWAYS send a letter, even where complaints are unfounded, simply to remove further ammunition. I keep a file of thank-you letters from those who feel I have done a thorough job.

Sorry if I'm teaching grandmothers to suck eggs, but the key aims for me are to establish their expectation, obtain facts (just the facts, ma'am) and to get rid of them as quickly as possible so I can get on with my job. I probably write one to three letters a day at busy times. I do not accept and will not put up with rudeness or offensive behaviour and have removed many people until they have calmed down enough to enter into rational discussion. Always have a witness present, preferably someone who can do the removing if necessary.

Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 07:42 AM

jonm has it - at Shrewsbury he was offered his money back, and it was not what he wanted.

I am assuming it is the same man (that narrows it down a bit) but the way it was conveyed is the issue. Sandra is a very easy person to talk to, but pragmatic.

The guy was still around scrounging his free "in" to the swimming pool on the Sunday.

His actual complaint was not stated by him nor Sandra - but if he can't delineate it to stewards and insists on speaking to the boss, it is a big clue to his modus operandii. You don't get to my age (30 today would you believe?) without reading people resonably well.

If you need to know, ask those who can tell you more accurately.

The point is "forewarned is forearmed". You can deal with instead of react. Maybe not what he wants, but it should be what you want.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 08:00 AM

I suspect he has never tried it at Whitby Folk Week (maybe too far North for the guy) but there, Malcolm WOULD have given him these 2 special little words, & likely assisted him in carrying them out...

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 09:09 AM

Given the proportion of festival organisers to volunteer stewards who regularly read/post to this site, it's more likely that the VSs are going to have to deal with this person eventually.

I'm glad to say that in all the years I've stewarded festivals I've only had one major complainant - a guy missed the first 30 mins of a concert because his car had broken down and he'd been delayed - and tried on 3 consecutive days to get his money back from 3 different stewards/organisers. We all gave him the same polite but negative answer.

Skipy - why didn't you make yourself known at Towersey, I could have bummed a beer off you!

LTS

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: skipy
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 09:35 AM

LTS, we had a chat by the real ale door, rest of the time I was on the admirals table, placed me yet?
Skipy

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Crystal
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 09:55 AM

Stewarding the kids events you don't usually get so much aggro, there have been a few people though! They can't be bothered to get up to take their kid to an event, but give the stewards hassle if there are no spaces left!

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 10:56 AM

ER... were you wearing a reddish Tshirt?

If so....


GuDOIINNNNNNNNNNG

That's the penny dropping with a resounding clang!

LTS

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: skipy
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 11:07 AM

Nope, biege fleece, stupid haircut with ridge along the top.
I can be found on crane driver's wedding shots along with Tony & Pearl, Pete & Denise.
Skipy

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 11:14 AM

BEIGE!!!!

I don't believe it.

LTS

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: JedMarum
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 11:21 AM

I've run into such people as a performer - finding offense at the most benign issue. Some people get pleasure from feeling offended and find they can elevate that feeling if they gripe most professionally and publically. Others find that they can get much more then they paid for if they do the same. The former is a sickness of the mind - the later may be that coupled with a need to get somethig for nothing.

Still others shop lift ... what craziness inhabits our human nature, eh?

;-)

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 11:38 AM

Always remember that Festival Organizers are usually volunteers. Treat them accordingly. But for their volunteer efforts, you don't have a venue to play and get paid at.

Mick

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: leeneia
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 12:04 PM

I complained at a festival once. We had bought tickets to the first concert of the weekend.

The music (harp) had started. Children were exploding balloons. Bram! Bram! Guys from the Green Party were having beer and loud conversation at the back of the tent. A musicologist seated behind me offered running commentary during the playing. A four-year-old in cheap party shoes was running back and forth across the wooden floor: clack-clack-clack-clack. (Being only four, she needed to break balloons for five minutes, then run up to mommy and daddy to make sure they were still there.)

We went to the ticket sales area and asked for our money back, but they wouldn't do it. We left. Later that weekend, strangers stopped me two or three times to say that agreed with me.

Of course, I didn't complain constantly, just once. But my points were valid, and if I had complained about them separately as they occurred, they would have remained valid.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: skipy
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 12:21 PM

LTS? what don't you believe?
the biege or you have worked out who I am?
Skipy

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 12:58 PM

Who said earlier on in this thread...
"Not too sure if one can make a living as 'professional complainer'"
Well I'm still chuckling!
G

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 01:24 PM

oh dear, if Mr red is thirty today he must have had a very hard life so far.
What can we do about the poor old chap's biological clock, its obviously running much too fast :-))

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Mr Yellow
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 01:26 PM

There was one person I saw in a paper. He was paid to get money for unpaid bills. Well his complaint was that he stank. His MO was to cover himself in obnoxious smells and sit in the shop/reception etc until in desperation they paid the bill, rather than loose customers.

I guess any debt collector is a professional complainer.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 01:45 PM

Always remember that Festival Organizers are usually volunteers. Treat them accordingly. But for their volunteer efforts, you don't have a venue to play and get paid at.

I don't think we need to remember - for there is always someone (usually a volunteer) who is more than willing to remind us. Usually with their words and sadly often by their actions.

Should we really be expecting less from those who volunteer whilst at the same time be demanding more from those who do get paid for their services? I suggest that if anyone is willing enough to take your money - that makes you a customer and as we all know - the customer is always right.

For if you volunteer but can't stand the heat in the kitchen - does this really entitle you to throw pots and pans at the customers?

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 01:56 PM

I agree with The Shambles on this one.

It should work both ways.

Granted, the event would not be possible without volunteers.

Equally granted, the event would be a pointless exercise without attendees.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:40 PM

Whatever anybody says, the old diktat about the customer always being right, is crap!
Giok

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: RWJ
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:59 PM

As for custmers allways being right , this customer spent twenty mins in my face cmplaining and saying nothing but i have to do this every year . But he still turns up , why ?

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Scoville
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 03:28 PM

I was going to ask that: why?

I've been to bad festivals but then I don't got back the following year. Seems like a no-brainer. Of course, I also don't scream in peoples' faces when things don't go according to plan, so maybe this guy and I are just too fundamentally different to begin with.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 03:37 PM

Big Mick,

"remember that Festival Organizers are usually volunteers"

That also works both ways.

If the volunteers don't treat their customers/your audience right, you won't have a venue to play and get paid at next year.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 03:42 PM

From years in the service industry I can assure you that some people just get off on yelling at other people. They can't yell at the average guy on the street or they would get punched in the nose. Same thing if he yells at his wife. So they often go off on someone in the service industry { sales clerk, waitress } knowing that 9 times out of 10 they just have to stand there and take it or they've lost their job.

My opinion of folks like that is not very high. They are bullies.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 03:49 PM

LtS - Skipy runs the festival I missed because I went to Whitby..... (if there had been 5 Mondays in August I could have got to both)

Kitty

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: danensis
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:38 AM

Are Festival Organisers volunteers? I thought some made quite a comfortable living from it? Certainly one organiser dropped a major festival because she thought she deserved more money. Perhaps some Open Book accounting is in order? It seems a little strange that some may be profiting from an activity that relies heavily on volunteer labour,

John

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: GUEST,neovo
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:59 AM

Stewards et al may be volunteers but they do get payment in kind in the form of free tickets etc. When you consider a weekend ticket could be in the region of £60 that's about 10 hours work at the miminum wage.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 08:15 AM

Mr. Red, thanks for making me feel less like the child here at Mudcat. Sometimes when I don't something or aren't familiar with something and catch a lecture about it, people will find out I'm 42 and and then say "Oh, OK, nevermind." Which is not them being dismissive but it does make feel sometimes the way I did when I was dating someone 22 years older than myself!

Back when that was happening, I was walking around the fellow's apartment one evening(he was a literary agent) and commenting on certain things I saw. I picked up one rather osbscure but excellent book off the shelf and said "Oh! I can't believe you have this. I simply loved this book when I was child." He replied "Oh, yes. Wonderful book. I sold that. She (the author) used to be a client of mine. I sold her first 8 books."

Sometimes I make a comment here or point a fact out and get a reply from someone that reminds me of that evenbing in that fellow's apartment.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 08:50 AM

danensis, I suggest you ask Steve Heaps about the ethics of that one.
G.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Gervase
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 09:01 AM

Oh blimey, not that one again!
I've got no problems with Steve Heap making a living out of running festivals (though how much comes from festivals and how much from Mrs Casey and Rocking Chair is a moot point).

I've also got no problems with him putting his equity on the line year in and year out. Festivals need a lot of money up front, and they can, potentially, lose a lot of money. if Steve wants to take that risk, then he's welcome to make a profit out of it.

I don't see a huge difference in price between his festivals and the more amateurish and home-grown affairs, and I don't see guests of any ethical stripe boycotting Steve's festivals. I'd love to know how many people who carp at him have ever sat down with him and talked about running a festival. Or would even recognise him if he sat next to them in a session.

As for the volunteer issue; I've stewarded many times, but I don't do it for nothing, or for the love of it. I do it for the free ticket. As such, I reckon I owe the festival a duty of care to do my job properly. But that doesn't give anyone the right to be an idiot when they're dealing with me.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: JedMarum
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 09:13 AM

Many of the big US festivals, managed and operated by volunteers hire professionals in various categories (beyond performance). Typically that would be the event director and a publicity person.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 09:29 AM

Gervase; a mite touchy there mate, you extrapolated an awful lot from a dozen words!
G. [Who has nothing against Steve Heaps]

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 09:37 AM

I think it's 'Heap', not 'Heaps', Giok. You know, like 'sheep' instead of 'sheeps'.

As for the actual subject, you do what you can for people who complain. The bottom line is that you do the best job serving the majority. At some point that means you're going to have to politely as possible ignore people who've demonstrated it's impossible to satisfy, and give other folks the attention they deserve.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 10:46 AM

Let's face it, there are some people who get their rocks off by complaining!
G.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: M.Ted
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 11:20 AM

Like WesleyS, I worked in the service industry--and he is exactly right--there are people who bully and abuse service people deliberately because they know they can get away with it. They are difficult people to deal with, because, they present themselves as "victims" while at the same time threatening with a variety of retaliations, including physical violence. In reality, they are abusive predators who can do a lot of damage to an event--

Event planners need to prepare in advance for identifying and dealing with individuals of this sort so that they neither disrupt the event nor demoralize the event staff-

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 12:15 PM

Thankfully both those customers who feel they can bully and volunteers who abuse their position are rare enough for us to be able to deal with?

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 01:01 PM

I think the bullying customrs are probably well known, but the procedures are needed so those organizers or volunteers know what to do when one shows up, as M.Ted indicated. You have one person who can deal with the individual away from the group, who's aware it's a waste of time but doesn't mind being the distraction. You listen, try to help, then when the intent to manipulate becomes clear, smile, walk away and let the manipulative person decide what they want to do next.

I've also been the person in the office to whom the difficult people were supposed to be sent. You do what you can, and you learn when to move on.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 01:08 PM

Oh, I should mention that I think M.Ted's right. Part of the plan is to have someone to who to send these people, who can handle whack jobs yelling at them or tying to make them feel guilty, and who is capable of just walking away. They aren't easy to find, but if they KNOW that's what their job is, it's easier. If they're problem solvers, and the problem is evidently the person who's complaining rather than the complaint, the logical solutions change.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 02:23 PM

Thankfully both those customers who feel they can bully and volunteers who abuse their position are rare enough for us to be able to deal with?

The big problem comes in dealing with situations where those who wish to bully - have themselves obtained postions of some authority.

Then perfectly valid and moderately expressed concerns about this abuse of authority and sensible suggestions to deal with it - are then able to be dismissed by the unreasonable party by attempts to label the complainants as unreasonable.

Sadly these attempts are often supported by others simply because those in a postion of authority are assumed to have some credibility.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 03:07 PM

"Sadly these attempts are often supported by others simply because those in a postion of authority are assumed to have some credibility."

Like it or not, the persons in authority have some credibility becaus it is their show. A festival organizer, while they may be inexperienced, have the final say. They have to think of what is best for their show and the majority of the audience.   

I was at a local club where a woman kept complaining about her chair - loudly.   These were folding chairs, metal with plastic seats, that were used for the monthly concert series as well as the church services that normally took place in the room they were renting. I heard the woman complain to one of the club organizers that she had a bad back and "couldn't possibly" sit in the chair.   The organizer found this woman a padded chair and let her use it. (Was it fair to give her another chair? If others started to complain, where would they find more chairs of this type? Why should she get preferential treatment?)   About 10 minutes into the show, this woman got up and went back to the person and started complaining, loud enough to disturb the audience. She would not leave the room, even though the volunteer was trying to get her out. Finally the woman walked away and spent the rest of the show walking in the aisles and standing in the back.

It could have been worse, and I think the volunteers showed restraint. ANYONE who disrupts a show should be removed from the venue in my estimation.

Troublemakers are known and should not be tolerated.   These shows are private affairs and paying admission does not grant one the right to do whatever they choose.

That said, promoters and volunteers owe it to themselves to try to address complaints and make the guests feel welcome and comfortable. Even worse then a complainer is the person who chooses not to voice their opinion but instead take their business elsewhere. The promoter/volunteer does not know or have an opportunity to address potential issues and the problems could get worse.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 03:09 PM

oops... to clarify, the woman in my story above did not like the second chair they gave her and kept complaining - this time while the show was going on.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 06:05 PM

Hi Ron

Disability Discrimination Act (in the UK)

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 06:20 PM

Like it or not, the persons in authority have some credibility becaus it is their show. A festival organizer, while they may be inexperienced, have the final say. They have to think of what is best for their show and the majority of the audience.

When do persons in authority lose any credidibilty they may have had? Or can this never happen?

An audience member can and will be ejected when they lose their credibility by being judged to be behaving badly, like swearing and shouting. Is it unreasonable to expect this to apply to all parties?

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 06:20 PM

Richard has a point...all venues have to be made accessible to all under the DDA and this includes all aspects from being able to get into a venue as a wheelchair user all the way through to suitable seating. Having worked with people with disabilities for a long time though I would say that most people check in advance with the organisers to see if things can be arranged prior to getting there.Even though the act is in force not many people are still aware of their legal obligations under the act.

Going back to the beginning of the thread I would have to say that if someone was not happy with the festival and was being abusive then I would turf them out and ban them from coming back. The main problem these days is that we are expected to put up with such abuse. I have now started to tell people who are like this in my line of work that I won't deal with them any longer as I will not tolerate their behaviour. Amazing how many people come back after calming down and apologize.Treat people as you would like to be treated is what I say!

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 06:21 PM

Warning, fetish alert

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 12:01 AM

Good points. However, the building is accessible and meets all U.S. standards for disability access. The volunteers did what they could to meet this persons needs, but it wasn't going to be good enough. If this person brought a wheelchair or their own chair, they would have been accomodated. The rest of the chairs are up to code. What law states that only chairs that satisfy comfort be provided. Churchs with hard pews would be out of business.   

I don't think that handicaps as an excuse for boorish behavior, especially when people are trying to meet their needs.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 03:40 AM

Fetish alert????? Did I mention anything rubbery in my post?

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 04:33 AM

To Ron and Richard and guest31 aug 06.20.

1st The USA and Canada (in my expierience) are far further forward than the UK in disability issues.
2nd the DDA provides for "reasonable provision" offering a second chair is reasonable provision. It would be impossible to have a chair for everyone's situation. As Ron says disability is not an excuse to be an idiot.

As an ex-Festival and folk club organiser if someone has a complaint they are free to express it, however if their expressing infringes my right to have free space around me and my right to feel safe and not under threat, then they should not be listened to untill such time as they can behave properly and if nessacary be removed.

AB

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 05:41 AM

Does having a "bad back" avtually count as a disability then? How about if I turned up at the Proms and demanded a seat amongst the promenaders because I had tired legs?

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 05:51 AM

1. Depends on the back
2. Depends on the chair
3. Some have a fetish about arguing for the sake of it.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 05:53 AM

3.
Not a hint I hope?

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 07:36 AM

You, manitas?

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 09:21 AM

"1. Depends on the back"
True. There also is a limit on how far a facility can go for accomodating various problems. Should beds be provided? In the case that I mentioned, the venue provided reasonable accomodations to all handicapped.

By the way, I have also seen the club accomodate wheelchairs, provide reserved seating up front for people with hearing and vision handicaps, etc. They made sure the building they use is handicap accesible (no steps, large doors, bathroom facilities, etc.).

"2. Depends on the chair"
They did not have the audience sitting on wobbly stools. The chairs provided are standard chairs that meet all legal requirements.

"3. Some have a fetish about arguing for the sake of it. "
How very true.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 09:22 AM

Folk festivals are not about rules - they are about music.

I feel that too often volunteers are exposed and seen by the customers as setting the tone of the event. They are often left only with the idea that their role is to unhold these rules to the letter. They do not (or say they do not) have the powers of descretion that the organisers do, and some volunteers can can hide behind this. And rather than actually solve a customer's problem, can make it worse and turn a minor concern into a major row and a resulting complaint.

I remember a few years back at Sidmouth there was a Showcase event. I went along to the office and booked a spot. When I arrived to perform and even though my name was on the list, the steward on the door would not let me in unless I paid my admission. I could have just paid this but I did not have the money at this time. I could have just given up the idea but those who put my name on the list did not mention this as a requirement - so I went back to the office and was eventually allowed to enter and perform. To make matters worse, on the way back to the venue, I bumped into the musician who was then performing with me and who I did not know was even in town. He was eager to perform with me but the thought of trying to get him in (and his wife and children) was just too much - so I performed alone.   

Despite the impression given in this thread, I suspect there are very few of us who have not experienced situations where some minor official has made our lives far more difficult than they ever needed to be, by the classic and inflexible 'jobsworth' attitude. What then is the correct way for us to deal with such abuses? Is it just to accept and ignore them - for fear of being labelled a 'professional complainer'?

If that is the advice and such attitudes are not to be challenged and for this reason - I suggest that we prepare ourselves, as all our lives are set to be made far more difficult than they ever need to be.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 09:53 AM

There was this guy at one particular event who began to jerk off. It got worse and worse and although others tried to explain that he was just playing with himself, he kept right on whipping the Bishop. It was embarassing to watch for many and just plain sad as well. What was even worse, he kept trying to get others to join him but alas, they wouldn't. Many occasionally enjoyed a good bologna bop but just couldn't sse the point in continuously stroking away.

The organizer came along and told him to pack up his midget dick and go home but to no avail. Even when he said he was doing it for the greater good and it was all the fault of the current Chief of Security at the time, it had become obvious to most everyone that he was whacking off because he was a compulsive Jack-Off. The event went right on as it had been and I hear that after awhile, what very little remained of his already tiny dick just crumbled and was blown away in the breeze created by his still pumping hand.

On the plus side, I heard he has one arm that has massive biceps and forearms..............

Spaw

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 09:54 AM

On the issue of disability, how far are organisers expected to cater for the mobilty impaired ?
A couple of years ago people had wheelchairs, that is a fairly average size chair with wheels fitted, and stewards would help these people and move a seat for them.
Now there seem to be a lot of electric go-cart things zooming round, which are about four feet wide and 6 or 7 feet long, need a bigger turning circle and block gangways in contravention of fire regulations.

Can organisers insist on traditional wheelchairs in venues, not the motorised vehicles?

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 10:09 AM

Shambles - it is too simplistic to say that folk festivals are about music and not about rules.   Events do have rules.

I do agree with you, volunteers sometimes take on too much power and either misinterpret or make up rules. How a person handles such incidents determines whether the individual has a legitimate gripe or is a professional complainer. Perceptions of an individuals behavior often cloud the circumstances and can work against that person.

As to the situation you describe, I do know that there are open mic situations here in the U.S. that require performers to pay the cover charge just like anyone else.

There is also the issue of "comp" tickets. At the Hurdy Gurdy, we have a policy of giving the performer five comp tickets. For a 100 seat room this is reasonable and we do not have complaints. There are times when a performer needs more, and we usually work something out. One time we had a band that brought their "street team" - a group of individuals that hand out flyers and help promote the bands appearances. The group, without asking in advance, requested 25 tickets for a sold out performance in a 100 seat room.   Do the math. While some people may take the stance that the band is only hurting their own sales, you need to remember that the venue has expenses to put on shows - rental of the room, equipment, publicity and guarantees for the band. With too many comps, the venue can actually lose money on a "sold out" performance.   

So, when you say the musician was put off by having to pay for his wife and children, I am sure that the festival would be put off by having to pay for his wife and children as well.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 10:14 AM

Catpaws-Waht happened to the jerk guy in the end?

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 10:30 AM

he came and went

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 10:34 AM

As to the situation you describe, I do know that there are open mic situations here in the U.S. that require performers to pay the cover charge just like anyone else.

There has been a long tradition of musicians playing for their supper (and sadly of having to) - and in my view it would be regretable if this aspect changed due only to being seen to be sticking to the letter of the law. As there are ways to be found to get around this without being slave to the rules - as my example demonstrates.

I feel sure that the places you describe would not stick to their rules to extent of denying their audience the opportunity to see some well-known performer who happened to turn-up to play - just because this performer may not agree to pay to perform or expect to.............They may even let their spouse and children in to watch too.

Hopefully, obtaining the best music possible for an audience would always be thought to be most important consideration?

There are such places as you describe elsewhere in the world but I would not attend these by paying to perform. In my example, it was I hope clear that the question of paying for admission was not specified in the advertising nor when I booked my spot. Had it been, as I had no money to pay for this - I would not have booked my spot or have been interested in performing on that basis.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 10:50 AM

"I feel sure that the places you describe would not stick to their rules to extent of denying their audience the opportunity to see some well-known performer who happened to turn-up to play - just because this performer may not agree to pay to perform or expect to.............They may even let their spouse and children in to watch too."

Most well known performers would be respectful of the rules of the establishment and not expecet preferential treatment.

IF a performer is booked for a gig, they do not pay. If they are participating in an open mic, they might. I think there may be a difference in what we consider "open mics". Over here, the audience is made up of the performers. The cover charge is minimal. I don't know how it works with "folk clubs" on your side of the pond, but I am curious.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 10:57 AM

Most well known performers would be respectful of the rules of the establishment and not expecet preferential treatment.

That is as maybe - but under these circumstances - it was the approach of the organisers of the open mics that was in question.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Grab
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 07:55 PM

Like it or not, the persons in authority have some credibility becaus it is their show. A festival organizer, while they may be inexperienced, have the final say. They have to think of what is best for their show and the majority of the audience.

When do persons in authority lose any credidibilty they may have had? Or can this never happen?

If they're putting the show on, it's their show. You can advise and suggest, but the buck has to stop with someone, otherwise you end up with "horse designed by committee" syndrome. That someone may be elected, or they may have their role by virtue of being the one who set the whole thing running initially, or they may be hired/appointed to do the job. Whatever, they have the final say. If you disagree with them to the extent of feeling unable to work within their decisions, the only solution is to walk away and find (or set up) somewhere else that does suit. That's the nature of all joint-venture enterprises.

Yes, everyone along the line needs to show some initiative - your steward was clearly of the bar variety. :-/ But if a complaint gets as far as the top man/woman, then the answer is written in tablets of stone. And as the doctor says about tablets, you either swallow them or you stick them up your arse... ;-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Grab
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 08:05 PM

Guest, I don't know about the US, but in the UK all disability access is defined by "reasonable provision".

If you're performing in the top floor of a mediaeval castle, having to put in a block-and-tackle specifically to hoist wheelchair users up would not be reasonable, so you wouldn't worry. But if you've just failed to put a board across a small gully or a ramp up a kerb, then you'd probably be in trouble. So I guess it'd depend how much it costs/inconveniences you.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: jeffp
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 08:10 AM

It sounds like pretty much the same as here in the US, Graham. The law specifies "reasonable accomodations."

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Mr Yellow
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 11:18 AM

Mrs Casey did rather well booking acts for Sidmouth on the strength of back bookings from club and festival organisers. And didn't I hear how Mrs Casey only booked acts for Sidmouth if they could contractually place them in ten more gigs. Symbiosis? Business acumen? cynical? But of course....... Steve Heap is probably thanking me for those accolades.   But is it Folk - NO! - it is called entertainment. Yer makes yer choice.
Miss Yellow & I went to Sidmouth for the first time this year. See above.

Shrewsbury asked for 4 hours a day and at £75 a ticket and you don't get to see everything you want AND NO ARGUEMENT - pay that works-out at £4.70 / hr but much worse value than that.

They still do it for the love of the genre.

It is not nice to know that this seems to be the same guy - the answer is to communicate the name at the Folk Festival Organisers do.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 04:16 AM

"Most well known performers would be respectful of the rules of the establishment and not expecet preferential treatment."


Oh dear... Experience has shown me that certain performers only respect the rules when they work in their favour.... I've seen one performer forbid a wheelchair bound customer entry to the venue when it was absolutely hurling rain down; the performer had arrived late with no good reason and was still doing her sound check 10 mins after the performance should have started. They stuck to the absolute letter of their contract with regards to the hospitality provided but ignored the contracted length of performance because it suited their plans to leave before midnight.

There are some well known performers who will bend over backwards to help out a festival and there are others, like some customers, who will push and push to get their own way and screw the rest of the world. Thankfully, the pushy ones don't get to do many festivals because they're just too much trouble (and the FFO spread the word!).



"I don't care if I am blocking the view, I paid for this seat and I'm not taking my hat off." was one comment I overheard at a festival when a large gentleman plonked himself down in a front row seat. He didn't notice the arrival of a lady with 2 small children who then proceeded to wail that they couldn't see. He muttered and complained to which the reply was 'they've paid for their seats and have the same rights to sit there as you do'. He moved.

Wonder who "suggested" that lady with the small children sit just behind him..... : )


I steward because a) I'm a bossy cow who likes telling people where to go, b) I'm a helpful bossy cow who likes talking to people and helping them and c) because I couldn't afford the ticket otherwise. My regular festival at Towersey requires that I do 16 hours (4 X 4hour shifts) over 5 days. I'm unbearably perky in the mornings so I volunteer to do the 8.00am-12noon shifts. Leaves me free to do anything else I want to during the day and means that I will still be there to do my duty on the last day (many stewards suddenly and mysteriously vanish then) and enjoy the rest of the festival. Cost to me - getting up that little bit earlier, but in a tent, who really minds... Cost to them - getting a steward for £4.35per hour. The team of professional security (using the word 'professional' in its loosest sense) charge an average of £7-10 per hour.... To employ professional security 24hrs would double the cost of your ticket. It would also, IMO, damage the relationship that most folkies have with venues and festival organisers. Someone who is sympathetic to the music and knows what else is going on is far more likely to suggest alternatives than some strange adolescent who was last week guarding a building site and is now in a field full of men in rainbow shorts and pixie hats.

If there is this one person who makes a hobby of complaining just to see what he can get back, then the FFO should be aware of him. However, they can't deny him a ticket just because he whinges. Do that and you'd open up a whole new can of Diversity worms.

LTS

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 09:40 AM

Most well known performers would be respectful of the rules of the establishment and not expecet preferential treatment.

This is probably leaving the main point of this thread, but the question is which rules do you go by? Because the world may have turned upside-down - does it mean that you have to accept and support them?

That having finally reached the safety of the castle - you just pull the drawbridge up behind you?

I would hope that any performer who had gained an established reputation by paying their dues under a set of rules where singing for one's supper was aceptable and where being paid for entertaining with their talents was the way things were - would not be seen to openly support situations where performers were now expected to first pay, in order to entertain.

Or that they may have forgotten a time when even such a small amount of money to pay an admission charge would have been beyond them and would have prevented them from playing and from being able to start building their current reputation?

It is quite mad to accuse anyone who just wishes to get in and entertain - and who may not be able to afford to pay this admission fee (and the next one) - of wishing to expect preferential treatment - when their wish is simply to be able to perform and to do this unpaid.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: GUEST,A logged out member
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 09:52 AM

It has to be said that not everybody who is prepared to get up and perform is going to be able to do so in a way which provides entertainment to those who have paid to get in and listen. It may sound harsh to say this but organisers have a duty to ensure, to a greater or lesser degree, that those customers who have paid money over for an evening's entertainment, receive something that they feel has given them good value.

I can cite a recent situation where a 'late night extra' was put on, to raise money to help pay the costs of a Festival. It was set up by the booked artists themselves, who wanted to do something. A charge waas made for tickets, it was a sort of 'meet the artists' in a very informal setting, where they let their hair down and did stuff they wouldn't normally do.

Inevitably, we got other people saying 'I'll do you a few songs if you will wive the admission'. But the thing is, where you have an audience made up almost completely of 'folkies' - 99.9% of them would have been able and willing to say that - the result would have been .... no money raised.

And, I'm sorry but just because people want to sing (or play) does not mean I am going to want tp pay to listen to them.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 10:14 AM

It may sound harsh to say this but organisers have a duty to ensure, to a greater or lesser degree, that those customers who have paid money over for an evening's entertainment, receive something that they feel has given them good value

Yes they do - but charging for admission is not the way to do it - is it?

Having those who are able to afford to pay to perform is no way of ensuring that your audience will be entertained. I suggest quite the opposite may result.

But of course the money will be there - and that now, would always appear to be the most important factor.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 10:21 AM

"This is probably leaving the main point of this thread, but the question is which rules do you go by? Because the world may have turned upside-down - does it mean that you have to accept and support them?"

Stop painting pictures with broad strokes. We both know that there are different rules with different circumstances.

Yes, many times you will need to go with the flow - or remain perched in your own little world with little regard to the feelings of others.

There are times when you do have to bend and accept that it may be a rule that you do not like, but you aren't going to beat it because too many others support it.

Again, nothing is black and white. The circumstances dictate which action to take. In the topic I was discussing, perhaps the performer needs to re-evaluate their wishes. In the circumstance that you mentioned, perhaps the festival organizers need to re-evaluate their stance.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 01:42 PM

A charge waas made for tickets, it was a sort of 'meet the artists' in a very informal setting, where they let their hair down and did stuff they wouldn't normally do.

Wouldn't paying the admission fee - like everyone else would be expected to do - be something they wouldn't normally do?

In similar and larger scale charity events, it often appears that the particpants tend to do what they enjoy, get the publicity and most of the credit for all the money raised when actually not parting with a penny of their own.

I have no doubt that the event you describe was well-intentioned. And I have no doubt that any offers to help with the performances were also well-intentioned.

Perhaps in such cases all parties should do what they do best and not use it to make judgements of each other and a decision should have been made as whether the event was in order (for all) to have some fun or in order to raise money. Perhaps any problems were caused by trying to combine the two?

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: GUEST,Logged out member
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 03:10 PM

As I mentioned above, Shambles, the event was organised by performers not organisers - perhaps the one can't necessarily do the job of the other? I know organisers rarely tell performers how to play or sing but performers often seem to have an opinion the other way, without understanding the constraints involved.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 03:29 PM

"In similar and larger scale charity events, it often appears that the particpants tend to do what they enjoy, get the publicity and most of the credit for all the money raised when actually not parting with a penny of their own."

I often think, with charity fundraisers, that I'd rather just make a donation to the cause than give up the dozens of hours orgaising the damn thing takes - if all the organisers and participants just made the same donation, the charity would probably benefit from as much as it would receive from the event.

How come, Shambles, when you want to get in somewhere free, your time is valuable, your performance worth in excess of the normal admission price and you think it would be wrong to have to pay - yet you shift your point of view when it suits you

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Peace
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 03:48 PM

I have done charity events and attended charity events as an audience member.

When I performed, the performance was my donation. When I was in the audience, my entry fee was my donation.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Gurney
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 10:50 PM

Can anyone make a living as a professional complainer?

I don't know, but a pal tells me that a number of people travelled the world free by doing so. Their system was to complain bitterly about the attendants, "That stewardess touched my breasts/testicles, she's a whore!" and variations on that theme. Male attendants were also vulnerable, sometimes for sexual orientation reasons.

I'm using the past tense because the known offenders ane black-listed on all major airlines for international travel, because they can't hide their identities. I'll bet the sods are still around, though, and looking for ways to continue their activities.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: fiddler
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 03:30 AM

I think any complaint is to be taken seriously, even the *rs*h*l*s

If a complainant is very agressive then try to remove him or her to a controlled environment.

I recently faced a hoard at a festival who wanted to break in to the venue as they were unhappy with the ticketing system. I could not practice what I have said above but they got their way the next concert because I listened and spoke to management who listened and changed to rules accordingly.

It really was very agresive and violent verbally, and escalating if not careful to physical. Beer and hot weather make it worse.

We must just all do our best. Removal to a controlled environment where they can vent their spleen is often best, it is amazing how often they calm down when there is no audience for them.

Just a thought.

Andy

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: GUEST,Mr Red on a new computer - XP sucks!
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 07:58 AM

I have seen locals get all irate in one way or another because they assume there is a public right of way under their feet. "No sir - it is where the authorities allowed it to be published on the map, can you show me that map sir?" If all else fails - "Complain to the council - they have designated where the fence should be, the same council that........."


FWIW this thread was a warning about one specific person who, whatever his complaint (I know not), was not the most reasonable in delivering it. If that person is doing this generally the FFO should compare notes.

However thread drift will inevitably produce a discussion.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: MadDawg
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 08:21 AM

Wow! You folks on the other side of the pond sure do seem to have some great attitudes in how to handle the bloody losers! I am in awe of festival organizers, especailly since I am working as a sound person at my first. This si the Fox VAlley Folk Festival in Geneva IL, a festival where the performers clamour to perform and the attendees seem to be not only well behaved, but acquainted with the performers on a quite personal level, and therefore, actually police themselves! Complainers get told to shut their holes and either leave or behave! The only major problems seem to be alcohol on public property (Festival takes place in a municipal park, hence no spirits other than the one's that move you!) and the odd bastard who thinks the world is his cafeteria and needs to phnysically sample the wares! These are dealt with by the local constabulary! NO other problems to speak of. Oh, and the staff is strictly volunteer. This year there are over 125 volunteers. Attendance should be between 20 and 30,000 folk music lovers!

It seems that we all can learn tolerance and behavior from one another, so the invite to "ford the pond" and come here for a summer of tours of all kinds of festivals is always open! After all, I feel that there isa very common thread between us and the UK. God bless the British---if it weren't for you, we'd all be speaking a language we don't understand!

Best regards,
Norm "MadDawg" Siegel
Chicago, Ill.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 08:31 AM

The definitive map is conclusive evidence (until challenged in the proper way and amended) of where a right of way is. It is not evidence of where a right of way is not, although various governments over the past 40 years have steadily eroded the rights of way of the Englishman.

Obstruction of a right of way is an offence, and an obstruction may be abated as of right.

A local authority cannot lawfully obstruct or extinguish a right of way without going through the proper procedures and in some cases court applications.

The Ramblers Association publish a very good book on the subject, universally known as "the blue book" and both the Trail Riders Fellowship and LARA (the Land Access and Recreation Association) are well informed .

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 03:35 PM

That's one of the problems I've come across at festivals, the question of access.

People live in the village/town all year round but for one week (or so) a year, they are prevented from accessing one area. Although residents are usually given access tickets for most of the day, these cease to be valid after a certain time. This is when you get locals who would not have set foot in the field/park at any other time of the year, arguing that it is 'their' field and they have the right to walk across it.

Ho hum...

LTS

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: Blowzabella
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 04:15 PM

That is always going to be a problem with 'closed site' events, I'm afraid, Liz. Can't be avoided.

Subject: RE: Warning to Festival Organisers
From: GUEST,merek n dary,
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 07:35 PM

I am warned! Hope the complainer does not come to Banbury. Thanks