a roving on a winters night

Subject: a roving on a winters night
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 05:25 PM

This song was recorded by Doc Watson.a song by Bob Dylan called Boots of Spanish Leather seems to have one verse the same.
   Im guessing a roving on a winters night is trad and was first, any information would be appreciated.

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 05:57 PM

This song was recorded by Doc Watson.a song by Bob Dylan called Boots of Spanish Leather seems to have one verse the same.
   Im guessing a roving on a winters night is trad and was first, any information would be appreciated.

I just compared the lyrics to "A-roving On a Winters Night," as they appear in the DT with the lyrics to "Boots of Spanish Leather." They do not have any verses that are the same.

As Arnold Jackson was once heard to say, "what you talkin' 'bout Willis?"

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 06:28 PM

Correct,. I apologise.

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 06:57 PM

The origins who wrote, thread got me thinking about dylan songs and I misremembered, a verse from Spanish leather,.
however BOB DYLANS DREAM,must have been inspired by Lord Franklin[ the tune is TRADITIONAL [THE CROPPY BOY]as well as the Lord Franklin tune.The songbook I used to have it in has gone,so i cant be sure if dylan credits the tune or not. I believe the opening lines were quite similar as well as the tune.
    in my opinion Lord Franklin and the croppy boy are much better songs.

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: GUEST,DaveS at Work
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 03:30 AM

Check out the sleeve notes on "Freewheelin'" Captain and you'll see that Dylan credits both Lord Franklin and Martin Carthy.

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 03:38 AM

The origin of Boots of Spanish Leather was the Scots ballad Hungtingtower.

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 04:35 AM

"A-roving on a winter's night" was sung by Dolly Greer on the old Topic LP "The Watson Family Tradition", which has since been re-released on CD. I'm not sure of the precise relationship of Dolly Greer to the rest of the Watson clan (perhaps Roy Harris, who was kind enough to lend me this terrific album many years ago, could check the sleeve notes if he's following the present thread), but I think Doc picked the song up from her. It is pretty much a collection of floating verses and has a lot of overlap with songs like "If I go Ten Thousand Miles", but the most ubiquitous of those verses (that which may have rung bells for the Captain) is "Who Will Shoe Your Pretty Little Foot", found everywhere from "Lord Gregory / Lass of Roch Rooyal" down the line.

The version that first turned me on to the song was that recorded by Peter Bellamy with Lisa Null and Bill Shute. Heartbreaking!

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 05:49 AM

to guest daves ,Dylan doesnt credit anyone in his song book though.
I have now found the songbook and it says by Bob Dylan.
    Here are doc watsons notes for a rovin on a winters night.
its just about one of theprettiest songs that yoyu could hope to find anywhere. ill never forget the night when ralph rinzler and I went down to dolly and len greers house and dolly sang the song. I had never heard it before and I thought it was beautiful.
Dolly greer is a distant cousin of docs,from whom he also learnt Pretty Saro.
I play the song[ AROVIN] on guitar in AMAJOR ussing fifth position A chord and using pentatonic major sixths and ninths it works really well also using d major in fifth position and e7up there too, but its different from the way doc does it.
finally I guess bob dylan may have heard [a rovin]and been unconsciously influenced by it[ in my opinion it has abit of the same feel to it,melody wise and lyric wise], although its not a direct crib and is definitely a different song,both are beautiful songs.
now I shall search out hunting tower[thankyou Fred ].             Dick Miles

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 06:03 AM

BOB DYLANS DREAM Has another similarity in the last verse.
    Iwish,Iwish Iwish in vain.
that we could sit simply in that room again.
Ten thousand dollars at the drop of a hat
id give it all gladly if our lives could be like that.
       LORD FRANKLIN.
AND now my burden it gives me pain.
the fate of franklin all on the main.
Ten Thousand pounds would I freely give.
to say on earth that my franklin do live.
THE SONG BOOK is called THE TIMES THEY ARE A CHANGING, PUBLISHED BY WARNER BROTHERS MUSIC. AND THE SONG IS DEFINITELY BY Bob Dylan, no credits given to anyone.I rest my case.

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: C. Ham
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 08:53 AM

You're so right. Dylan has used traditional sources in his songwriting.

I suppose he learned how to do that from Woody Guthrie, who did the same. If it wasn't from Woody, maybe he learned it from Pete Seeger, or A.P. Carter, or Jimmie Rodgers, or Ewan MacColl. Then again, maybe he picked up the technique from Brownie McGhee or Robert Johnson.

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 09:09 AM

and how about WHOS GONNA BUY YOUR RIBBONS WHEN IM GONE, and Dont think Twice im alright, more than just using traditional sources perhaps.
    Finally Bob was quite happy to perform Paul Metsers FAREWELL TO THE GOLD all the time he thought it was traditional, but as soon as he became aware that it was written by another songwriter, he dropped it, of course he has a perfect right to do this. [ now if this information is incorrect, then i offer my apologies to Bob]
I happen to think ,Times they are changing, MASTERS OF WAR[ traditional tune, nottamun town]ARE GREAT SONGS.

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: C. Ham
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 09:12 AM

Dylan has recorded many songs by other songwriters in his career. If you go to one of his concerts, you'll probably hear him perform a couple. That, of course, is despite the fact that he has no shortage of his own material.

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 10:11 AM

Iwouldn,t go to a dylan concert if you paid me ,despite the fact I think he has written some good songs. I would rather hear Tony Rose sing Boots of Spanish leather, TONY ROSE now there waS a great singer, in my opinion far superior to BOB DYLAN as a performer and a singer.

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 12:20 PM

to c ham, if you have the time , I would be grateful if you could give me a list of songs recorded by Dylan[ ZIMMERMAN]by other songwriters,and which he also performs live. as I have a different impression. DickMiles.

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 12:37 PM

"now I shall search out hunting tower[thankyou Fred ]."

It was released on Topic LP 12T 138, where it was sung (magnificently) by Belle Stewart. The disc was re-released on CD in Ireland by Ossian. I don't have a catalogue number for that one but in any case, Ossian no longer exists.

Most of Dylan's output in his early days seems to have been inspired by other songs. In fact, it's obvious watching the Scorsese documentary, No Direction Home, that he was a veritable sponge, soaking up influences from all over.

Nothing wrong with that, in fact an awful lot of that early output is first class. Jusy ask me which I prefer, Scarborough Fair or North Country Fair.

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 12:53 PM

Captain Birdseye appears to be working himself up into a real old lather over Bob Dylan ...

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 02:44 PM

no, C B is going off to play some music.
people that hide behind shrouds are pathetic twats.

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 02:46 PM

I agree absolutely. They're not worth pissing on.

Fred McCormick

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: C. Ham
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 03:05 PM

Here's what I recognize from scrolling down the list of songs that Dylan has recorded on his own albums. There are probably a bunch I;ve missed.

A Fool Such as I, by B. Abner
A Satisfied Mind, by Red Hayes and Jack Rhodes
Alberta, traditional
Arthur McBride, traditional
Baby, Let Me Follow You Down, by Eric von Schmidt
Big Yellow Taxi, by Joni Mitchell
Blackjack Davey, traditional
Broke Down Engine, traditional
Canadee-i-o, traditional
Copper Kettle, by A.F. Beddoe
Corrina Corrina, traditional
Days of 49, traditional
Delia, traditional
Diamond Joe, traditional
Driftin' Too Far from Shore, traditional
Early Mornin' Rain, by Gordon Lightfoot
Fixin' to Die, by Bukka White
Frankie & Albert, traditional
Freight Train Blues, traditional
Froggie Went a Courtin', traditional
Gospel Plow, traditional
Gotta Travel On, by P. Clayton, L. Ehrlich, D. Lazar and T. Six
Hard Times, by Stephen Foster
Highway 51 Blues, by C. White
House of the Rising Sun, traditional
In My Time of Dyin', traditional
It Hurts Me Too, by Elmore James
Jack-A-Roe, traditional
Kinsport Town, traditional
Let It Be Me, by M. Curtis, P. Delanoe and G. Becaud
Lily of the West, by E. Davies and J. Peterson
Little Maggie, traditional
Little Sadie, traditional
Man of Constant Sorrow, traditional
Mary Ann, traditional
Moonshiner, traditional
Mr. Bojangles, by Jerry Jeff Walker
Ninety Miles an Hour (Down a Dead End Street), by H. Blair and D. Robertson
No More Auction Block, traditional
Pretty Peggy-O, traditional
Rocks and Gravel, traditional
Saro Jane, traditional
See That My Grave is Kept Clean, by Blind Lemon Jefferson
Shenandoah, traditional
Sittin' on Top of the World, traditional
The Ballad of Ira Hayes, by Peter LaFarge
The Boxer, by Paul Simon
Worried Blues, traditional

And here are some I remember from Dylan's contributions to compilations, tributes, etc.

Train of Love, by Johnny Cash
Pretty Boy Floyd, by Woody Guthrie
I Ain't Got No Home, by Woody Guthrie
Dear Mrs. Roosevelt, by Woody Guthrie
The Grand Coulee Dam, by Woody Guthrie
My Blue Eyed Jane, by Jimmie Rodgers
The LOnesome River, by Ralph Stanley
I Can't Get You Off Of My Mind, by Hank Williams.


How's that list, fer ya?

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 03:13 PM

How about:-
Restless Farewell - The Parting Glass
Hollis Brown - Pretty Polly
With God On Our Side - One Morning In May
Masters of War - Nottamun Town
Hard Rain's a'gonna Fall - Lord Randall
Farewell - Leaving of Liverpool
Pretty Polly O - Lass o'Fyfie
I Pity The Poor Imigrant - Tramps and Hawkers
Bob Dylan's Dream - Lord Franklin
Girl From The North Country - Scarborough Fair
Song For Woody - 1913 Massacre
Farewell Angelina - Farewell to Tawathie
Ballad in Plain D - The False Bride
Fourth Time Around - Norwegian Wood

and right up to date with Rollin' and Tumblin'

as has been said before - all the great songwriters have used this ploy.
Agreed Tony Rose did a splendid version of "Boots of Spanish Leather" as did Nic Jones. How dearly I would love to be able to see those two singing again; and Dylan too (although I only saw him back in November last year)

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 03:40 PM

With God on Our Side is more closely related to The Patriot Game, although Behan certainly set it to the melody of One Morning in May.

Many years ago, Max Jones interviewed Dylan for Melody Maker and asked him where the title "Rainy Day Women Nos 12 to 35" came from.

Dylan, as abstruse as ever, said something like "It's kinda hard to explain unless you've been in Mexico for six straight months".

This puzzled me for donkey's years (no, honestly, I've got nothing better to occupy my mnd) until I heard Anthony Seeger present a paper at an ethnomusicological conference. The exact phrasing has long gone. However, Seeger was waxing lyrical about changing attitudes among collectors towards the people they recorded, and how early collectors often didn't bother to record people's personal details, or to acknowledge their sources in their field data. (Thank God there is no-one alive today who would even dream of getting a field singer's name wrong !)

Anyway, he instanced this by telling the conference about a stack of shellac records, upon which an early collector had recorded the rain dance songs of a party of anonymous Zuni Native Americans from New Mexico.

There they were, in the catalogue and on the disc labels: Rain Dance Songs Nos 1 to 11. Rain Dance Songs Nos 12 to 35.

Fertile mind, our Bob.

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 04:19 PM

I suppose the only way he got away with fourth time around[ not a traditional tune but lennon mcartney]. They the Beatles were EITHER too rich to care or too busy counting their money to notice.
    Rumour has it that Yoko ONO [ now owns the beatles copyright]interesting to see what she does.
    to C ham a pretty small amount of other LIVING song writers.HARD TIMES,COPPER KETTLE, fixin to die , HIGHWAY 51, SEE THAT MY GRAVE IS KEPT CLEAN, could be out of copy right.
of living writers,we have Paul Simon, Joni Mitchell, Gordon Lightfoot[ dontknow about Jerry walker][all pop folk]nothing to outshine our Bob, . NO EWAN MACCOLL , CYRIL TAWNEY,HARRY CHAPIN, PHIL OCHS,PETER BOND, LEON ROSSELSON, PAUL METSERS.
    A clever ploy to throw in a few songs from songwriters,who will not outshine you.

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: GUEST,Blind Boy Grunt
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 04:51 PM

Hey Captain Birdseye, play a song for me
I'm not sleepy and I'd like to hear what YOU'VE done.

And one more thing, man, you are in dire need of a life.

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 05:05 PM

My favorite version of "Roving On A Winters Night" was by a Brit, Peter Bellamy, with harmony by Lisa Null.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 05:12 PM

Well ,I have been a professional performer on the english folk scene for thirty years, I now live in Ireland, where i play regularly, as well as playing in England, my name is Dick Miles.
here is alist of my recordings THE DUNMOW FLITCH sfa 106.
                CHEATING THE TIDEgvr227 [Martin Carthy GUITAR ]
                Playing for time GVR 238.
                new mexborough concertina quartet plant life 071.
               AROUND THE HARBOUR TOWN brewhouse.
               NAUTICAL AND. milestones.
               Home routes[ with Richard Grainger]
             concertina tutor [ THE CONCISE ENGLISH CONCERTINA]
             concertina tutor [ FOR SONG ACCOMPANIMENT]
             song book [THE SAILORS DREAM].
       So I have probably done more than you in my life, and man who are you to talk aboutlife,   what have you done.go off and learn.

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 05:27 PM

yeah peter was a great singer. YOUNG TRADITION were brilliant. I Miss Him.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: a roving on a winters night
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 06:12 PM

TO BLIND BOY GRUNT.I will tell you about my day. I played the violin for about 45 minutes, the tenor banjo for about the same, the concertina for about an hour and a half, the harmonica for45 minutes, gave someone a guitar lesson, sat and sang some songs with the guitar for about 30 minutes. went for a walk and looked at the beautiful Irish countryside. Had my car fixed , Thats what I call a life,.
now if your the real blind boy grunt [ AKA BOB DYLAN ]COME ON OVER ILL GIVE YOU A FEW CONCERTINA LESSONS FOR FREE, and well have a few beers you can afford that cant you, you,d like Ballydehob.