BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!

Subject: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: Cathy Baldwin
Date: 02 Mar 99 - 09:01 AM

I am researching into whether folk music can emancipate social change. I would like to know anyone's views on this, especially what happens when people of one nationality play the music of another nationality; whether the music can reach beyond the cultural group that it comes from. I am focusing on Scots Gaelic music/culture and would like practical views as material for the project. If anyone knows of any general information sources, please let me know. Thanks a lot. Cathy Baldwin [e-mail]

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Mar 99 - 02:32 PM

short but sweet this, for what it is worth.

There is only one music, it is the universal language and the heartbeat of the world.

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: Pete M
Date: 02 Mar 99 - 03:45 PM

To put it more formally, apart from Australia and New Zealand, all human settlements have been in contact, however intermittently, with each other since their inception; music and entertainment are the most transportable of accomplishments, and in many cases musicians were and are itinerant. The concept of a "cultural group" having a exclusive musical style is at the least questionable. I believe that some research has ben done which indicates that all known "folk" ie pre renaiscence music is derived from a common base using the pentatonic scale. There is a reference to some of this work in the appendices to "Here I stand" Robeson P. (1958)

On the positive side I would suggest that the music of Robeson (which included many traditional songs from the British Isles) would be a good basis for research on your topic.

Please keep us informed of your progress.

Best of luck

Pete M

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: Bert
Date: 02 Mar 99 - 04:44 PM

Folk music in the CND (Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament) in the Fifties & Sixties might be a good place to start. The music certainly helped to keep the CND going. I personally believe that the CND helped to keep nations talking at a time when some politicians had itchy trigger fingers. The fact that millions of people on both sides were marching for the same cause must made these polititians have second thoughts about escalation.

Before the CND it was considered very unpatriotic to talk against war. And in most countries it was treasonable to talk against the government.

This more enlightened era that we live in has arrived SINCE the CND. How much was due to the movement and how much the songs helped are the questions.

Bert.

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 02 Mar 99 - 10:30 PM

Hi Cathy!

I'm a little unclear about your use of the word "emancipate" above. However, are you aware that the Civil Rights movement in Northern Ireland used U.S. Civil Rights songs extensively? "We Shall Overcome," for example, was anthem.

Hope this is of some help.

All the best,
Dan Milner

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: Pete M
Date: 02 Mar 99 - 11:26 PM

Yes Dan, I found that a little -strange? but let it pass. Perhaps the word you were searching for Cathy was "accelerate"? Or may be you were trying to give a sense of the ability of song to spread ideas, either way emancipate is clearly not the correct word for the context.

It's worth remembering Cathy that 'Catters are likely to be far more critical (constuctively) of your work than your lecturer, and that may include your English! In the mean time we had a discussion last year which covered similar ground to the question you pose. You can find the thread here.

best wishes

Pete M

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 03 Mar 99 - 03:31 AM

Cathy,

A few books that might be of some use to your dissertation

Negus, K (1996) Popular Music in Social Theory. Polity press.

Boyes, G. (1993) The Imagined Village: Culture, Ideology and the English Folk Revival. Manchester University Press.

Greenway, J (1953) American Folksongs of Protest. Universuty of Pennsylvania Press.

Denisoff and Peterson (1972) The Sounds of Social Change. Rand McNally.

Denselow, R. (1989) When the Music's Over. Faber & Faber.

Hamm, C. (1995) Putting Popular Music in its place. Cambridge.

Hebdige, D. (1987) Cut n Mix: Culture, Identity and Caribbean Music. Routledge.

Shepard, L. (1962) The Broadside Ballad. Herbert Jenkins.

Stokes, M. (1994) Ethnicity, Identity and Music. Berg.

I hope you find something of use. If you need any further help or advice feel free to email me: [e-mail]

Brian

Subject: Counter-cultural or anti-authority songs.
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 03 Mar 99 - 06:54 AM

On the other side of the coin, there are songs which haven't changed things - songs that have helped keep things as they are. It's very common for people to make a joke of a problem in order to cope with it: the problem is perceived as a joke and not a problem. In the war (WWII), for example, there was a cartoon strip in Britain called "Addie and Hermie, the nasty Nazis", in which Hitler and Goering were a couple of ne'er-do-wells whose schemes kept getting them into hot water. It was great for civilian morale, but I doubt very much if it shortened the war. On the same theme were Fougasse's "Careless talk costs lives" posters. In the Iron Curtain years there were those wonderful animated films of Jerzy Trznsky (excuse spelling!).

There are a great many counter-cultural or anti-authority songs of humorous, ironic or just plain vulgar content which make intolerable situations tolerable. The Blues springs to mind. And soldiers'/sailors' songs, where you can safely oppose or ridicule authority, the enemy, injustice, or whatever - what can't be cured must - and can - be endured.

I haven't thought about this before, but I wonder if humorous songs tend to encourage acceptance and compliance, while bitter or angry songs tend to encourage opposition and rebellion?

Steve

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: Bert
Date: 03 Mar 99 - 08:55 AM

Steve,

A lot of Tom Paxton's political songs are humorous but I don't recall any of them that 'encourage acceptance and compliance'

Bert.

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 03 Mar 99 - 10:53 AM

Sorry - bad choice of words. I don't mean overt encouragement, but ... I can't think of the word I do mean; are we (unconciously) less inclined to take action to change something after we've made fun of it? And I know I'm making a big generalisation here ...

Steve

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Mar 99 - 12:13 PM

Steve

It is interesting what you say about Hitler being portrayed as a figure of fun. It certainly was the case that when I was growing up, that my image of him was confused with the various comic impressions of him, notably the Charlie Chaplin one and the various comic songs about him that were still being sung. I'm sure this served a purpose for the people faced with task of fighting him and what he stood for, but I think that for my generation (I was born in 1951) it made it difficult to come to terms with the true horror of this man and his impact.

What I am trying to say is that Hitler was a man, who had a family and not some Frankenstein's monster or a comic book villain. I remember consciously thinking that one day, fairly recently.

On another point; I tend to think that I am open to all forms of music and that it is generally a force for good, but that all male singing, of words that I do not understand, that usually formed the soundtrack to those Nazi propaganda films, always sends a shiver up my back, but not for the same reasons that music usually does.

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 03 Mar 99 - 12:36 PM

Hey, I was born in 1951 - but I don't remember you!

I agree with you about the shivers, but it's the association of the whole thing, I think; I enjoy listening to male voice choirs, on the whole.

Sorry Cathy, we seem to have hijacked your thead!

Steve

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: Pete M
Date: 03 Mar 99 - 02:56 PM

Oi you two, my Missus was born in 1951, whatderyer mean by hanging around wiv 'er eh?

Shambles, I think that that is the most important point anyone can make about any of the perpretrators of horror, ancient or modern. They are the bloke next door, who love their kids and help old ladies across the road. If we hold them up as monsters ie not human, we are commiting the same mistake in condemning them as they make in justifying their deeds.

Cathy, back to your research, Roy Palmer has written extensively on the social impact of folk song eg

The Sound of History : Songs and Social Comment Ballad History of England Britain's Living Folklore

I presume you have also included the EFDSS library in your search?

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: northfolk/al cholger
Date: 03 Mar 99 - 10:58 PM

I recall that Pete Seeger can wax poetic about the evolution of music from all areas of the world, that has landed on this shore and been subjected to the folk process and turned into American music...see "THE IMCOMPLEAT FOLKSINGER"

I also have seen a chronology of the use of the song ROSIN THE BOW which has been used-adapted with topical lyrics, for maybe 2 hundred years...as a political ditty.

One of the variations from this era was ACRES OF CLAMS by Charlie King, an anti-nuclear song used to motivate the clamshell alliance around Seabrook N H...hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 05 Mar 99 - 08:47 PM

Cathy:

If I were writing your paper, I think I would open it by quoting these lines from Ralph Chaplin, the man who also gave us "Solidarity Forever" (a song that has surely contributed as much to social change as any other in our history):

Mourn not the dead that in the cool earth lie,
Dust unto dust,
The calm sweet earth that mothers all who die,
As all men must.

Mourn not your captive comrades who must dwell,
Too strong to strive,
Within each steel bound coffin of a cell,
Buried alive.

But rather mourn the apathetic throng,
The cowed and the meek,
Who see the world's great anguish and its wrong,
And dare not speak!

Sandy

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: Robin
Date: 06 Mar 99 - 01:10 AM

One of the first things banned by oppressive regiems is a people's songs. That would indicate how powerful, and therefore threatening a group's music can be.

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From:
Date: 06 Mar 99 - 07:14 PM

What about folk as a means of avoiding social change, perhaps social change for the worse? I think of the Cape Bretoners and Newfoundlanders stubbornly keeping to their folk tunes and ways in the face of modern mass culture.

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: Susan A-R
Date: 06 Mar 99 - 10:56 PM

I did a paper on this in college (very fast, I'd forgotten that it was due) but I remember a rather powerful Plato quote on the subject, basically citing music as a dangerous fomenter of rebelion. Anyone seen it? Also, there is some interesting stuff in "Victor Jara, An Unfinished Song" by Joan Jara. I particularly recall her description of upper middle class housewives trying to co-opt folk music, which was a powerful tool for change in Chile, forming "saucepan brigades" or some such thing, with really bad right wing "folk songs" Seems to me that if the oppressors are trying to imitate something, it must be powerful. (I DO spell like someone with a MA Don't I?? I guess that's why I've taken up cooking instead.)

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: Penny
Date: 07 Mar 99 - 09:51 AM

I don't know how much chance they have to change things, but there's a bunch of people at Crystal Palace, South London, busy writing new words to old tunes to make their protest about the destruction of the green site of Joseph Paxton's original Crystal Palace in order to build a multiplex. Sorry I can't give many of the words, but I gave the sheet back so others could join in. All I can recall is

"Ten green trees, growing behind the wall (2), And if one big chainsaw, should make one of them fall, there'll be nine green trees, growing behind the wall."

Has to be old tunes, so people can join in, but it seems to be an instinct.

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: karen jonason
Date: 08 Mar 99 - 04:29 AM

I did a BA dissertation in 1972 on the folk songs of miners as an expression of their culture. I was fortunate to be able to interview AL LLoyd. Folk or home-grown music acts as an expression of hopes, feelings, anger, love, rebellion etc. of oppressed peoples. It's no accident that social movements for change thoughout history have generated songs which both express the struggle and keep up morale. It's also no accident that singers and writers of songs have been murdered or imprisoned by oppressive regimes (eg Victor Jara). In Britain there is a growing network of socialist choirs, many of which sing at political events and demonstrations, sometimes adapting popular songs for specific occasions.

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: Don Meixner
Date: 08 Mar 99 - 07:29 AM

Cathy,

Good luck with your thesis. I believe that this is a much broader topic than you imagine. Songs have helped the cause of peace during war as well as the cause of national unity. There is no more powerful a weapon than a well turned phrase. I can't document this following statement but I recall someone saying of a British officer: We can never truly defeat/subdue the Irish, how can you win over an enemy that goes singing into battle or to their death.

Good luck.

Don Meixner

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From:
Date: 11 Mar 99 - 07:46 AM

Don, I couldn't agree with you more. Also, there must be a reason why right-wing songwriters are very few and very shortlived. We had one in Germany a few years ago - all he got was gigs at right-wing party conferences, and he has vanished without a trace since.

Allow me to go back to the 'Nazi' topic. I have no personal experience of the Nazi years (incidentally, I was born in 1954), but I've read quite a lot on them, and I've gone round and asked people 'How could you not see the true nature of that man and that ideology?' I think music played a big part in it, and for me, there is a scene in the film 'Cabaret' that captures the Nazis' use of music and the allure of their songs perfectly. Anyone who's seen the film will know what I mean.

Incidentally, a couple of years ago I was staying in Berlin and travelling on the Underground when a young man with a guitar (and an American accent) jumped in and proceeded to sing this very song from 'Cabaret'. I took him for a busker and was about to ask him did he know where the song came from when we reached the next station, he gave a brief Nazi salute, jumped out and was gone. Boy, was I glad I didn't ask!

Sorry if this isn't overly helpful to Cathy. The thread just reminded me of it. It sure did send a shiver up my back!

Cathy, I'd second the suggestion to take a look at the CND. Ailie Munro, 'The Democratic Muse. Folk Music Revival in Scotland' has a chapter on the Scottish movement. In Germany, songs were used extensively in the fight against the South German nuclear power station at Wyhl because they had a very gifted songwriter in their ranks, Walter Mossmann. Otherwise, I don't know that songs played a big role in social movements over here. - All the best for your big work! Susanne

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: Bert
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 03:37 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 09:30 PM

Alas, everything is relative!

In the 60s, when I was 20, we thought that songs could change things. Now, into my own future a ways, many of us who aren't Buddhists seem disillusioned. The realities of life can do that. (See the amazing film "WHAT DREAMS MAY COME") Prozac can help too. But this sadness is only true for those for whom it is true---only real for those who have found, through experience, that this old world and it's institutions are not as maleable as we once thought! But the young still think they can change things. By God, that's as it should be. My advice? GO FOR IT!! That's what youth is for!! You may have some success, but there will be, later, the inevitable diminishing of the dream. And that won't be as bad as it seems. You WILL learn to accept some losses as well as attaining that which can be achieved. (Read the fine book, "PARTING WITH ILLUSIONS" by Vladimir Pozner--Atlantic Monthly Press) Yes, in that sense we learn that we are ALL POLITICIANS---as dirty as that word is now. It's the art of the possible. Can never be total victory---or total loss.

THE DREAMS ARE DEAD!

GOD SAVE THE DREAMS!!

Isms go! But there's still Social Security. Those who care, in their multitudes, will save the babe from bein' tossed out with the filth & soapsuds.

What the hell am I talking about then?? Yes, folk can be used for social change---sometimes.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: Arkie
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 10:35 PM

Walt Michael has an interesting organization called Common Ground which involves bringing people of diverse cultures together to share their music. He is located in Westminster, Maryland and has been at this for several years. Common Ground is also on the internet, if anyone would like to check it out.

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: puzzled
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 11:20 PM

I have to agree with Art. Some of us of the 60's dreamed and fought to end the War, to stop Racism. Music seemed part of the struggle. But for all our efforts very little was changed. We're in another war right now. New york city is in turmoil from rascist events again. And the music from my youth has become golden oldies ad nauseum.
I still perform but I sing now for the joy of it, my joy and the audience's. Rather than change the world with my music I follow the path of a Kurt Vonnegut statement. (Let me folk process his statement.) A plausible mission of music is to make people feel good at least for a little while.
that makes me laugh
Music is my heartbeat. I won't stop playing until I'm dead. But then the world will continue to turn, music will still be sung and it will be someone else's turn to dream.
And even though I didn't change the world, when I'm gone they will be able to say that I did feel good for at least a little while.

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: catspaw49
Date: 31 Mar 99 - 12:13 AM

Whoa up here Bubba..............

Art and puzzled,

It would be really easy to get mauldlin here and look back at what little progress we did make, but we did make progress and folk was a part of it. Too many of us went on and said the hell with it, but some stuck with it and others like myself are back in the fray. The difference of maturity and experience dictate a more realistic involvement and goals. A good friend and Director of our Children's Services Agency, shares stories with me and I with him. Jim said that when he was 22 he thought he could save all the children in the world...and now he's happy with a few here and there. Sound bad...No, just realistic. And that's what we become. But without the idealism of youth, and the boundless energy, progress in social change slows down. So where are the flaming radicals today? Where are the youths with passion? I know there are some, but not enough.

I'm noways near done here...but I came tonight to be catspaw; for a little therapy and a few laughs. I want to come back and hit this...but not now. I sat and played for 2 hours tonight and I thought hard on the things that have happened and are happening to my family this week.=.Therapy Part I.......Mudcat visit as catspaw the litter spreader.=.Therapy Part II.

So I'm off for now flingin' litter as I go.....but I will be back a bit down the road to finish this.

catspaw

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 31 Mar 99 - 12:59 AM

Have to agree with Catspaw here: music was a huge part of the civil rights movement during the sixties, both for spreading the message outside the South and for raising the spirits and courage of those who were about to walk into the fire--into the lunch counters and interstate buses, into the registration drives, into the marches in Birmingham and the schools across the area. And music kept the anti-war protesters together and moving, the anti-war sentiment in the nation growing to the point that Nixon finally had to take the US out of the war, even at the expense of our client state in the south. Hell, yes, music can affect social change. --seed

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: sam Pirt
Date: 31 Mar 99 - 12:19 PM

Folk music is "music made by people for people", therefore as society changes so to does folk music and song for that matter! In a quick summary many years ago you would not have used the internet as a medium to find out information you may have used your local library, Folk music never use to house so amny different cultures as it does now, the reason? The world is becoming a smaller and smaller place thus making other far distant music's nearer and more accessable. Then musicians learn bits and put them into their traditional iadom, to great success, or not, thats for you to decide. Great title I hope I've been of some help!!

Cheers Bye, Sam

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: Art Thieme
Date: 31 Mar 99 - 07:01 PM

Sam,

Things are whatever people are willing to include at any given moment in time. Right now, more people than in previous times seem willing to open up their definitions of what is a folksong. Not necessarilly me, but some people are doing that.

The definitions broaden whenever there are dollars to be made by doing that. Or so it seems. The early '60s--late 50s non-monetary academic ethos in the folk world was obliterated, as if by a tidal wave, when glitz and flash and slickness was seen as a way to create superstars and $$$.

Woody used to tell a story about 2 rabbits holed up by a pack of ravenous wolves. One rabbit was cowering in fright. The other rabbit said, "There's no problem. We'll just stay right here until we outnumber 'em!"

That works for all sides--depending on whose got more votes---or more soldiers, words, bombs, Senators, whatever it takes to put whomever over the top.

In other words, times and things change---not always for the better. The more things change, the more they get different.

Art

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 01 Apr 99 - 02:37 AM

White rabbits!! There, that's got that out of the way.

I normally avoid "how do you define Folk" arguments, they're not conducive to good health. But back in 1976 I dropped into a folk club at what in those days was called a "Teacher Training College". In the interval I heard a girl, one of the students, complain to the organiser, "Why are you putting on all this rubbish? Why don't you have some proper Folk?". And when asked the obvious question, she answered, "Like that Simon & Garfunkel record you played before the show started." Eek!

I did a couple of unaccompanied songs (and forgot one halfway through!), which can't have pleased her, but I was accosted by a young chap in the gents' toilet afterward. That's always a sign of popularity, I find. He was most impressed by me going on stage "naked" (he wouldn't be now!), with no instrument to cover up the gaps and mistakes.

I met my wife there that night, as a matter of fact. I've never been sure whether she was impressed, then or since ... but one thing we never argue about is the definition of "Folk"!

Steve

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: Mikal
Date: 01 Apr 99 - 02:12 PM

Okay, probably I am way out of line commenting here, but the magic of the music has been, at least for me, not just a tool for social change but also a sheild to keep the old dreams and the old ways alive.

My uncles still sing "Who'll be King" (yes, I know you have another title in the database, but Uncle Joe still claims he's right and you are wrong!) And hearing my Aunt Altathea sing the Skye Boat Song. These were tools not only to make us remember the past, but to keep the future from stepping on us again.

The Coal mine songs, the Union organizers tunes so necissary in the past still get sung at my family get togethers to keep those days alive and to inspire the young never to forget, it cannot and should not happen again.

And it works. When I signed on to teach full time here in Missouri, I automatically found my Union rep at the school and signed on. How could I do any less?

Never, ever forget the effect this music has on the young. It has shaped our lives, made us better folk for it, and given us a vision for the future.

(Gee, did I just list myself as young? Guiness does effect one, doesn't it?)

Mikal, (Who doesn't always vote like his Uncles say, but sings the songs he believes in just like they do.)

Subject: RE: BA Dissertation: Folk for social change!
From: northfolk/al cholger
Date: 01 Apr 99 - 10:27 PM

Two new sites, www.globalvisions.org/cl/sfsc/index.html and http://metalab.unc.edu/hardmile/

I think many of you will enjoy these, I did.