Folk Britannia

Subject: Folk Britannia BBC2 tonight
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 04:35 AM

From those of you who didn't catch this on BBC4 it's being shown on BBC2 tonight (11.20 IIRC)

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: gnomad
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 04:52 AM

Thanks for that, I seldom read the listings for the late evening and would have missed it [I may yet, if the video plays up!].

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 07:40 AM

Wow! Folk on BBC2!

Maybe it will reach BBC1 next year.

Could this be the end of civilisation as we know it???????????????

Apologies for being sarcy, very well done the "Beeb", it's been a long time coming but we're grateful.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: My guru always said
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 04:16 PM

Brill, thanks for the heads-up! We've just spotted it in the Radio Times. This time around we'll be able to record it & hopefully I'll get to see that brill version of the Moving On song again, Hurrah!

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: vectis
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 06:25 PM

Recorder set to go and fingers crossed.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 08:02 AM

Damn! I've finally worked out how to record off Freeview, and they go and put it on BBC2!

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 01:15 PM

If they ever put it on BBC1 it'll be on at aboot 3am - Aah bet even punk & rap gets a better time slot than folk in this country - But then this crowd in power & the media divvent consider us te hev a folk culture or tradition.

AND..... Aah thought aah was the only one who couldn't stand that Ewen McColl.... and where does Peggy Seeger get off lecturin' us on English Traditional Folk Music??? With a banjo!!!!!!!!!

It wez canny te see Shirley Collins as a young maid and te see that she's still as lovely as ever as she's matured - Oh be still my appy heart
G-P

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Jingle
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 04:11 PM

I have just watched last night's Folk Britannia for the second time and it reminded me of the night I was taken to Ewan McColl's Singers Club in Holborn in the late Sixties which was interesting and edifying but couldn't be described as a relaxing fun filled evening.

He came over as a very forbidding and short tempered person, black looks for anyone who dared sneak out to the bar except when he declared a break. He and Peggy Seeger did nearly all the singing and only two or three singers from the audience were allowed to do a number, perhaps because he was in his "only sing songs from your own region" phase.

I'm glad I had the experience of seeing him but I'm also glad that folk clubs and singalongs that I go to nowadays are generally much freer in their approach to music.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 04:29 PM

Yes, highly amusing to see Peggy telling us how she fell about laughing at an english guy singing an american song.
I among many others at the time took lessons from Peggy, she had only a visitor's visa at the time and used to earn pocket money by giving lessons on guitar and banjo. The majority of us were Londoners and she certainly taught us songs from our own culture such as "lassie wi'a yellow coatie will ye wed a muirland Jockie" (yes I still have the lesson sheets), and then of course "Freight Train" and "Wilson Rag" and "Old Joe Clark".
She didn't tell us how funny it was then, wonder why?

I thought the programme did a good job of showing just how stiff, starchy and sometimes boring MacColl could be compared to the real people such as Harry Cox and Walter Pardon not to mention the Irish musicians assembling in Camden Town and probably many other unsung spots around the country.
Hoot

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: vectis
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 07:47 PM

I still remember the night I went to the Singers Club for the first time and was told I had to sing from my own tradition. Ewan almost fell out of his chair when I sang the Breathalyser Song and the Floating Bridge Shanty both modern songs from the Isle of Wight. It did shut him up and he never tried that one on me again. He did try to get the words from me though.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 04:16 AM

I went to E MC and PS's club at the Union Tavern at Mount Pleasant in about 1969. I don't think they had quite such a strict regime then, but they were still insistent on traditional material and it was a forbidding place, and I didn't particularly enjoy the atmosphere, so I never went back.

As for Folk Britannia, those b*gg*rs at the Beeb allowed Newsnight to overrun, so although I recorded it and added 5 mins on, I missed the end. They had just started talking about the Irish pubs in Camden Town, something I was interested in, having lived there for a while. Can anyone tell me what happened? Did I miss owt?

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 03:07 PM

Let's see if I have this right - Peggy Seeger has no right to comment on the English tradition.
She came to live in the UK in the fifties, worked with the team who recorded Sam Larner, Harry Cox, Joe Heaney, Paddy Tunney, The Stewarts, and numerous other Scots and English Travellers (co-produced two books on their repertoire),worked was the third member of the team who produced the radio Ballads, helped run a club for 30 odd years which booked the cream of the British and Irish tradition, made dozens of albums with Ewan of British and American traditional ballads, was a highly accomplished musician who accompanied British folk song and studied and lectured on numerous occasions on folk song style. What else should she have done to earn the right to give her opinion on the Folk tradition, produce her birth certificate! I wonder how many of her critcs can boast a fraction of her achievements.
She was teaching banjo when she had a visitors visa - that would be the late fifties. Hands up those of you who have never made mistakes (and learned from them) over the last forty odd years - the phrrase 'live and learn' springs to mind.
MacColl tried to adher to the policy of singing songs from your own background, it wasn't his idea - Lomax persuaded him that it was a good idea to make people aware of their own traditions. Personally I am extremely grateful otherwise I might never have heard Harry Cox, Sam Larner, Walter Pardon and all tha other graet British and Irish performers and could well have still been listening to and trying to sound like Rambling Jack Elliot anmd Leadbelly.
I knew Ewan and Walter Pardon for about twenty years and learned a great deal (and got a great deal of pleasure) from both of them.
In MacColl's case, I never met a more generous, skilful and passionate advocate for traditional singing, he was running classes when the rest of the folk 'stars' were getting on with their careers. He was never austere or formidable, he was great company and I enjoyed every minute of the time I spent in his company.
If I learned anything about the folk scene from Folk Brittania, it was how much MacColl contributed to my knowledge of traditional song. He was singing wonderful ballads and folk songs right up to a couple of months before his death and writing some of the finest songs the revival produced.
If any proof is needed of his achievements, the fact that sixteen years after his death there are still a bunch of tossers queueing up to dance on his grave (except he was cremated)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 04:11 PM

Jim

Like yourself, I revere his memory and he and peggy were never anything damned nice to me. However some people seem to have other memories, which is sad - but thats the way it is.

No doubt folks will sling shit at our memories when we're gone - which is sad - but thats they way it is.

Its better to have had a go, than done nowt.

all the best

al

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 05:54 PM

Of course, Peggy Seeger made many great and highly-praised achievements. But people, human nature being what it is, are always going to laugh at her for teaching English people American songs and then telling them not to sing them. And they will laugh at her even more for trying to take cultural ownership of a leadbelly song, purely because she was born in the same country. And they will always criticise her for publicly humiliating someone who was doing their best: we have all laughed at such things in private afterwards, but to do it publicly at the time was cruel.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 07:40 PM

History is history. You can't rewrite it. wars are in the main fought by desperate people.

There was a war.

The traddies against the contemporaries. the traddies won. In doing that, they killed off most of the folk music clubs in England. Most English people don't want anything to do with their own folksongs, given the traddie way of presenting it.

Other people might give it a different slant, but thats what most of us who were there, saw happening.

History gets written by the winners. You won't find many people in whats left of the folk club movement that aren't happy it turned out the way it did. A nice little club for people who don't want to be confused with Barry Manilow fans.

The winners did what they had to, to win.

There should be a statute of limitations - particularly for people who were very sincere and contributed much in the way of creativity.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 07:54 PM

It was billed in the Radio Times as a "new series". AS I was going to be out that night, I taped it, but haven't watched it yet, although from the description it sounded very much like what was shown on BBC4 some time ago - which I had also taped. If, as it sounds from the above, it WAS the same programme, why didn't RT bill it as "as shown previously on BBC4"?? Then I needn't have wiped off something else or wasted the kilowatts!

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 08:07 PM

Tattie the program was clearly labelled in the Radio Times as Folk Britannia: BBC4 on BBC2. BBC4 on BBC2 is the attribution they always apply to programmes previously broadcast on BBC4.

Mick

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 10:45 PM

jIM CARROLL SAID[if any proof is needed of his achievements, the fact that sixteen years after his death there are still a bunch of tossers queuing upto dance on his grave].
Better proof of his achievements is the fact people are still singing some of his songs.
I think he will best be remembered as one of the twentieth centuries better songwriters.my favourites include Thirty foot trailer,Sweet thames,First time ever,my old man,Travelling people,shoals of herring,a song for life[not sure if thats the correct title].
    for me hes up there with Bob Zimmerman, Cyril Tawney, the Singing Postman, PeterBond, leon Rosselson, Harry Chapin.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 02:45 AM

The impression I've always got of EM was that he did a lot to help preserve & define the Folk Tradition for England but then struggled to let it go and let the people (who's tradition it is after all) take it where they wanted.

For my part, his singing style leaves me cold & the presentation style always seems a bit twee (talking from the perspective of a 40 year-old). Cap'n Birseye is right though in saying he was a fine songsmith.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 03:42 AM

Ewan was right about a whole load of things, and a magnificent creative force. Its these things we need to celebrate when we remember him.

Stuff he was wrong about - well we can all disagree about that. Not many men manage all those wonderful achievements in one little life though.

I think he must have touched a nerve when he pushed for the anglicisation of the folk revival in England - something that a lot of people felt. He couldn't have closed down all those folk clubs full of Joan baez/Bob Dylan wannabes on his own. I'm not sure he would have wanted to. Perhaps he was shocked when it started happening - I know I bloody was.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 03:57 AM

Wee Little Drummer
The traddies didn't win.
People like myself stopped going to the clubs because we no longer knew what to expect when we got there. The repertoire became a hodge-podge of music-hall, pop songs of various eras, electric soup and undefinable stuff which appeared to be performed while gazing at ones navel.
I have no desire to apologise for Peggy Seeger's forty odd year old display of bad manners (though fair play to her, it was her who drew attention to it and apologised on the letter pages of The Living Tradition). My point is that her CV in traditional music makes her well qualified to comment on the British Tradition.The only thing I can add is that as a regular for twenty odd years at the Singers Club I never saw a singer treated with anything but politeness and respect.
MacColl did a great deal of work on traditional singing which I believe merits examination. To date, it has been impossible to discuss that work because of the piles of garbage that surround him and his ideas.
If people don't agree with the policy of singing songs from your own tradition - fine - let's discuss that, and not get bogged down in personality squabbles.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 04:00 AM

The topics Ewan McColl (and Peggy Seeger and others) raised were significant then and are significant now. At a purely personal level, an interview I just did with fRoots touched on my motivation on making a recording of exclusively English traditional music; in recent years I had been using much more eclectic material. The McColl criteria were certainly in mind when I was talking about this. He was right in a lot of respects, I am sure. Personally I never worked with him, or even met him, though I did some work for Charles Parker(the Radio Ballads producer). By many people's accounts, McColl could be very agressive and domineering, as a lot of achieving people are. He had his bad side, and his good sides. For Jim Carroll et al, he could do no wrong. I take a more middle of the road view. But Peggy Seeger's attitude, I have to say, I found just terrible.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 04:06 AM

I stopped going to folk clubs in the eighties when people were getting up to sing Beatles songs.

eric

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 04:25 AM

Greg, yes of course Peggy Seeger was wrong not to have concealed her mirth at the hapless Cockney Murkan but she apologised so that should be end of. It is not as though she is alone in being guilty of insensitive behaviour that we regret instantly. It is far more serious that she is adamant (and continues to be) that the English had totally lost sight of their tradition and it thus had to be reinvented and this view ignores completely the 'Hidden English' country dance music and song which continued to thrive in pockets into which the Radio Ballads bandwagon failed to roll. Not their fault exactly, it's just that a thriving rural culture didn't fit onto their political agenda.

As Jim Carroll says, it is impossible to discuss the fine work of MacColl/Seeger/Parker now because of the piles of largely invented garbage and hearsay spewed out by those who didn't even know them. For the purposes of context, I should declare my brief involvement in the Critics very early on, at least a decade of attendance at the Singers though the 1970s and work with Charles Parker towards the end of his life when he was staging Radio Ballads in colleges.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 04:29 AM

Eric, I stopped going to most clubs when they were overtaken by so-called comedians. Alarmingly, the era of singing Beatles songs badly is breaking out again with the release of the appalling Rubber Folk, a venture championed by one such 'funny man', Mike Harding.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 04:31 AM

My 5p's worth: I supported EM and PS at a college gig in the early 1970s and personally I found them very approachable and friendly to talk to. At the time I was relatively ignorant of their history although I knew about the radio ballads and that he'd written some of the songs I admired, such as Freeborn Man (Travelling People), 30 Ft Trailer, Shoals of Herring, etc. He didn't seem pompous in real life, but when I see footage of him he (unfortunately for him) did seem to sometimes come across that way, hence the comments above form others.

I've already said that when I visited them on their home ground (their club at the Union Tavern) I didn't particularly like the atmosphere there as it seemed too formal and 'serious' for me.

I'm sure they are/were not perfect (who is?) and may have made mistakes, but their contribution to the folk revival is significant. And if they were a bit heavy handed in implementing their ideals, they probably upset a few folk along the way, but you can't please everyone all the time.

As has been said, to laugh openly at someone doing their best seems bad manners and I wouldn't do it - unless of course the song is funny (have you ever had the opposite problem? A guy came into a session recently and sang a self-penned "comic" song - it was, shall we say, lacking in laughs. But we all pretended to chuckle anyway, out of politeness).

And I don't agree that people should only sing material from their home country, if that's what they were advocating. So it would be OK for a Cornishman to sing a Geordie song, or a Lancastrian to sing a Suffolk song then, but not for a Northumbrian to sing a Scots song. Where would you draw the line?

Folk should be about spreading good songs around and not drawing artificial boundaries. I admit I sing songs from all over the UK and Ireland, as well as the USA, Australia, etc., both traditional and by 'contemporary' writers (some of whom are still with us, and some not). I may not always be able to sing them exactly as a native would, but I do my best and I hope it all helps 'spread the word'.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: nutty
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 05:34 AM

The more the internet opens up to us and gives us access to broadsides, song sheets and sheet music from various collections, the more impossible it becomes to identify where the song originated. Unless, it can be attributed to a particular writer/singer such as the Dibdins or Burns.

A song written 150 years ago cannot be truly identified as an 'English'
song merely because 100 years later someone recorded an Englishman singing it.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 05:40 AM

I developed an interest in British Trad. song in my late teens. And it was around that time that I first heard recordings of MacColl. I thought then that he was the best and most exciting singer that I had ever heard - far more authorative and authentic than the whiny, pseudo-American (and American!) pop singers of the time. I had only a vague inkling that MacColl might be, in any way, controversial, although I did, subsequently, become aware of his politics (but I also became aware of where those politics came from).

I seized as many opportunities as possible to hear MacColl and Seeger sing live - both in London, at the Singers' Club, and in other parts of the country. I also attended one of their weekend workshops. To me each of these encounters was like being shown the contents of a treasure trove of riches - exactly the sort of riches that I was hungry for and hoping to find.

Of course the Singers' Club was serious! MacColl and Seeger had a serious mission - and it came as a great relief after the trivial, frivolous crap that was increasingly taking hold in the folk clubs and popular culture generally. Sadly those 'serious', and tremendously important days, are now buried under an avalanche, a veritable landslide, of crap - and all the crap artists can do is to besmirch the memory of a great man with handfuls of it!

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: JamesHenry
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 06:05 AM

People on a mission should be avoided at all costs Shimrod.

Your experience seems to have left you with a seriously distorted view of life - in a folk context, of course.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 06:54 AM

Countess, the so called folk comedians ie, Mike Harding, Tony Capstick, Billy Connolly etc. were ok occasionaly when they were still singing folk songs, but certainly for little Mike and The Big Yin the comedy took over, fame beckoned and they couldn't resist, mind you, if someone was waving wads of money at me I would [ probably ] do the same.
I thought I was the only person who disliked that bloody awful Rubber Folk, what a total waste of air time. Folk music doesn't owe anything to the Beatles.

I only once saw Ewan and Peggy, at the Singing Jenny Folk Club in Huddersfield, Ewan sang his own or Scottish songs and Peggy played an amazing array of instruments and sang American songs, in my opinion both were superb, I still think so.

eric

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 09:42 AM

I stopped going to folk clubs when....well actually I didn't. Sometimes the clubs didn't deserve my patronage, but they've always had it.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 10:41 AM

Weelittledrummer says:
"There was a war. The traddies against the contemporaries. the traddies won. In doing that, they killed off most of the folk music clubs in England. Most English people don't want anything to do with their own folksongs, given the traddie way of presenting it."

Who were these "traddies", and what is the "traddie way" of presenting folksong? By what criteria can they be said to have "won"?

When I started going to folk clubs in the late 1970s most of them were putting on a varied traditional / contemporary / comedian programme (at it's worst, the kind of thing Jim Carroll describes). Virtually none were exclusively traditional. During the 80s, many of us who love traditional song were very worried by the fact that so *little* of it was being presented in venues describing themselves as "folk clubs", either by professionals or floorsingers. Now we have something of a youth revival on our hands, and most of the newly emerging, exciting artists are in fact presenting traditional song and music. Are they the kind of "traddies" you refer to?

Sorry, you're not describing a world I can recognize.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 02:07 PM

Go to enough folk clubs for for about forty years and such a vision will be granted to you.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 02:55 PM

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 03:20 PM

Re Jim Carroll's comment above: Of course Peggy has a right to comment on the English (or any other) tradition,likewise we have right to disagree with her point of view. If I recall correctly she inferred that there was no English tradition extant referring to the 50's and 60's. If she was correct then how does Jim explain the existence of people such as Sam Larner, Harry Cox, Walter Pardon etc who are among the people that he says he enjoyed as a result of a friendship with Peggy & Ewan. I also recall the radio series 'As I Roved Out' which was going on at about the same time and may even have preceded her arrival on these shores. There seemed to be quite a number of singers around at that time but of course they didn't call themselves folk singers or attend folk clubs. They sang in their natural environment; the kitchen, the pub or family get togethers and their repertoire was often very wide. Obviously Ewan hadn't yet explained to them how it should be done.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 04:08 PM

"Go to enough folk clubs for for about forty years and such a vision will be granted to you."

Anon Guest above was me - sorry, forgot to put my name on it. I've been going to more folk clubs than I can count over nearly thirty years as punter, resident and professional performer, and I still don't recognize the situation of traditional dominance you've described. Maybe the period you're really talking about was before my time (although I doubt it was true then, either). Either way, you still haven't defined who those "traddies" were, and what was so objectionable about their performing style that they killed the folk club movement.

"Who killed the folk clubs?" is of course a perennial topic - last time I entered such a discussion, it was to defend fRoots magazine against the charge!

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: English Jon
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 04:22 PM

speaking as an english trad performer I find it hard enough to get gigs in clubs. Then again, maybe I'm just shit! hey ho.

Cheers
Jon

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 05:15 PM

The last time I saw English Jon in a club it was at one of the very few that I can bear to go to these days; a long-established one with resident band which has had a variety of North London venues over the past three decades or more and whose continuing aim is to present the best available artists, from the fiercely traditional to the frankly eccentric. Even the shit acts are class, not that I mean Jon is . . . er, I think I'll stop . . . right . . . there . . . (hehe).

Except to echo Brian P's puzzlement at 'trad dominance'. Eh? If only, at some of those that deserved to be killed off. Many people blame fRoots for the most unlikely things, from the street price of crack to the decline of attendance at Matins, but I really don't recall the mag ever exhorting people not to go to Little-Snoring-In-The-Marsh come-all-ye. Listing one ot two infinitely more exciting things to do, maybe . . .

What kills the clubs (but won't let them rest in peace) is blindingly obvious; it's the dreaded good-enough-for-folk brigade: never mind tuning or timing, we've always done it like this and if you don't like it, stay . . . out . . . of . . . our . . . club . . . because . . . we . . . know . . . better . . . than . . . you . . . (whoever you are). Another generation of 'clubs' is emerging though that the old farts (of whatever age) know nothing about. There's on in the Essex Road and another on a boat in Bristol. Shhhhush, best not tell them.

(PS Jon, you were fab. Really).

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 10:12 AM

The strange thing about ewans policy of singing songs from ones own area, is that he [ewan] probably despised THE SINGING POSTMAN. Yet JIMMY MILLER and ALAN SMETHHURST had quit a lot in common , they were both excellent songwriters, they both believed in singing songs from their own area, they both had stage names,they both had major top ten hits with their songs.
what would they have done if alan smethurst had turned up at the singers club, would they have joined in the chorus to Mind your head bor[ WHAT A SHAME IT NEVER HAPPENED ].

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 03:57 PM

Been away and just caught up.
First Ewan's attitude to others – my experience of this is based on twenty years friendship, which includes a couple of months living with Ewan and Peg who kindly gave me a home when I moved to London, 2 years in the Critics Group (my wife was a member for 6), regular attendance at the Singers Club from 1969 until just before it closed, and an extended six month interview with Ewan. This doesn't automatically make me right about him, but it does mean I had considerable opportunity to observe him and find out what he believed, how he worked and how he behaved towards others.
Of course I don't believe he could do no wrong, nobody believes that. Much of his work was done on a suck-it-and-see basis, particularly with the Critics. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't (occasionally he/we got it buttocks clenchingly wrong). I think it is well worth taking a look at the work he did warts and all, but the problem is that whenever he is mentioned we end up discussing just the warts and I am no longer prepared to do that.   
Peggy, on occasion displayed the diplomatic skills of Attila The Hun, but she was (and is still) extremely knowledgeable and skilful and has always been extremely generous with her time, experience and material, which is more than can be said of most professionals I have encountered in the revival.
A living tradition.
I think Peggy was spot on about the state of the tradition.
When the BBC began its 'mopping up' campaign in the late forties, early fifties, virtually all the singers that were recorded were elderly and had not sung for decades. Most were remembering songs that had been sung when they were young and many had never sung them within a living tradition but had learned them from parents and neighbours.
Harry Cox had only sung for collectors and enthusiastic visitors since well before WW2.
The regular singing session at 'The Fisherman's Return' in Sam Larner's village of Winterton had ended some time in the thirties.
What we got was a tradition being (often vaguely) remembered.
We recorded Walter Pardon extensively talking about his tradition, which he recalled took place mainly at harvest suppers when he was a child and later, when the farm went, at family Christmas and birthday parties (even these ended before the outbreak of WW2). Walter's repertoire came from his writing down his Uncle Billy's and mother's songs, which he began in 1948, a little after returning home from the army.
Anybody interested in what Walter had to say about the tradition can hear him talking about it on our recordings which are housed at the National Sound Archive at the British Library.
There may have been a few isolated pockets where some semblance of a singing tradition survived, but these were very run down and soon disappeared. If they ever revived in any shape or form it was mainly due to urban visitor enthusiasts on the heels of the revival.
I strongly believe that we know very little about the singing tradition simply because very few people ever bothered to ask the singers. There is certainly virtually nothing readily available on the subject.
Ewan up there with The Singing Postman.
Talk about being damned with faint praise. I never knew anybody ever took Alan Smethurst seriously – I don't think Alan Smethurst did.
By the way Cap'n – the song is called The Joy of Living – though people might be excused for mistaking the title as The Misery of Dying' the way it is being sung nowadays by some people.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 05:07 PM

"People on a mission should be avoided at all costs Shimrod."

Yes, JamesHenry, generally I would agree with that!

Although I know that I risk sounding naive here, but I never felt that Ewan and Peggy were trying to indoctrinate me. Instead they were willingly sharing their great knowledge of traditional music with me. And, personally, I found their 'serious' approach to the music not only edifying but also immensely entertaining (yes, serious things can be entertaining - in spite of what the 'dumbers-down' who control modern popular culture may try to tell you).

Like Jim Carrol, I don't believe that Ewan "could do no wrong" either but I do believe that he left those of us who were willing to listen to him with a unique insight into traditional music and memories of a truly great artist at work.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 06:42 PM

To Jim Carroll, no it is not being damned with faint praise,
you see my perspective and yours of the singing postman are completely different. he may have been a humorous songwriter as was Tom Lehrer, but that doesnt mean he was not good. EWAN WAS A DIFFERENT KIND OF SONGWRITER, I AGREE HIS SPECIALITY WAS NOT HUMOUR.But the ability to make people laugh is a great gift, and the Singing Postman had it, as did Tom Lehrer, and his songs are well crafted and well written.your throwaway line about taking himself seriously [ALAN SMETHURST]as if you knew him personally. He took himself and his songwriting seriously . I repeat EWAN was a fine songwriter, different from Alan Smethurst, or Tom Lehrer or les Barker, or Stanley Accrington.[ each of these are good in their own way]
Finally , your remarks about Alan Smethurst tell me a lot about yourself and your definitions of folk music and good songwriting.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 06:45 PM

leon rosselson, has the ability to write serious and humourous songs.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 07:49 PM

I hav'nae found it yet! I definitely taped BBC2 but when it got to 00.25hrs of BBC News 24, I gave up, went back to midnight, when it was supposed to start, and they said ZILCH about Folk Britannia or even maybe that it was delayed or postponed. Something to do with the fact that we are on BBC Scotland/Borders RT? Did we get totally deleted?
Please explain, MCP?

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: JamesHenry
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 08:05 PM

Shimrod

I never met Ewan MacColl nor had the opportunity to see him perform so it would be inappropriate of me to try to refute or endorse your experience and the legacy that it left you. I respect your point of view, your loyalty and the courage of your conviction.
My original reply, part of which you have quoted above, was prompted, not because I thought you naive but by the sentiments expressed in the last paragraph of your post.
It's extreme, to say the least, to dismiss as dross everything that didn't embrace MacColls' philosophy and everyone who questioned his motives. Perhaps, just perhaps, Ewan MacColl was responsible for pushing things in the opposite direction to what he intended and for that, perhaps, we should also be thankful.

Good Luck

JamesHenry

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Effsee
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 09:15 PM

Aye Tattie, you're right . It just didn't happen on BBC Scotland,,,,no explanation, nothing!

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 04:14 AM

Dear JamesHenry,

Thanks for your considered reply. I acknowledge that my final comments, in my initial post, were somewhat extreme. But, like Jim Carrol, I do get extremely annoyed at the way that Ewan's great artistic legacy is continually dismissed or ignored for what are often very trivial reasons.

I have to say that I was initially drawn to Ewan's work for very personal aesthetic reasons. As a small child I first encountered English trad. songs at school. I became fascinated by narrative songs and found the combination of music and story very attractive. In my late teens I discovered folk clubs and was re-acquainted with those 'story-songs' that I had so loved as a child. Pursuing my own voyage of exploration I came across the singer who I came to think of as the greatest exponent of my favourite form - Ewan MacColl.
Subsequently, through Ewan and Peggy's work, I got to hear many of the great ballads of English, Scottish and American tradition and a convincing and coherent theory of how to perform them. These revelations gave me the motivation and courage to become a singer myself. Although I am continually disastisfied with my own singing, it has provided me with an artistic outlet over the years. Other incidental benefits have included friendships with many fine people and good company generally and much emotional and intellectual satisfaction. Although Ewan is often characterised, by his detractors, as a 'killjoy' his legacy to me, personally, has been exactly the opposite!

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 04:23 AM

Cap'n,
I was in no way denigrating The Singing Postman - though I freely confess 'Have You Got A Light Bor' never rang any of my bells and nothing else he wrote springs readily to mind. I have to say whenever he is mentioned I always think of fellow countymen The Kipper Family who I find as offensive as a Kerryman joke.
Nor do I dismiss humourous writing - Tom Lehrer, Victor Borge and Stan Freeberg played a great part in my early musical influences, but none of this has anything to do with what we are discussing.
MacColl loved traditional song and devoted most of his life to it, but not as a historical excercise. He argued that the tradition still had relevence for those of us living today and that the forms that the tradition was created in, musical and poetic, could be used to create new songs every bit as relevent as the old songs had been to earlier generations - hence his enormous output of contemporary songs.
With the best will in the world, that's not what Postie was about.
I'm delighted that my remarks tell you a lot about me and my definitions of folk music and good songwriting.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 04:53 AM

Captain Birdseye

EWAN WAS A DIFFERENT KIND OF SONGWRITER, I AGREE HIS SPECIALITY WAS NOT HUMOUR
ALAN SMETHURST
THE SINGING POSTMAN
WHAT A SHAME IT NEVER HAPPENED



Ssshhhhhhhhh! Keep the noise down :)

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 05:22 AM

I've been thinking about the debate opened up here.

You can't lay the blame at any one person's door - or probably any one set of persons' doors and anyway, what the hell's the point of apportioning blame at this point Particularly when its aimed at people who contributed measureless amounts of creativity to the best of their ability.

The trouble in my opinion lay in the fact that the folk club movement was so much bigger than any one interpretation of folk music.

TV was getting slicker and better - more the province of the professional entertaining classes = and at this point historically the folk clubs hove into view. The English people, with their endless creativity, seized upon it.

Someone said disdainfully - I left the folk clubs, when I started hearing Beatles songs. Okay, the Beatles wrote a few nursery rhymes (And Your Bird Can Sing) but they also wrote about modern life and relationships in a way, and with a directness that related to millions of people. Imagine if you had a choice of concerts by people no longer with us. Sam Larner might just about fill the Albert Hall. John Lennon would be a global event. Naturally some people were inspired to have a shot at singing their songs.

Another person said - folk comedians drove me out. People forget how cutting edge Jasper Carrot was. I remember him snarling in a Brummy whine, "You people in Tamworth - you don't live in proper town - it's just a place where people go to sleep!" Here was an artist in a folk club - talking about our lives in a way The Dowie Dens of Yarrow didn't.

Connolly, Carrot, Harding .....these guys brought American style 'schtick' for the first time to an English audience - we'd heard of Lenny Bruce , Mort Schuman - but we'd bnever seen it done before. It was as much a folk art as frailing a banjo. And Christ has it been influential... when you see Alan Davies, Ricky Gervais, Paul Kay.....you're watching something that started in the folk clubs.

And as for music, I hope Derek Brimstone won't mind me quoting him, but we were discussing Folk Britannia and its more obvious exclusions Ian Campbell, Alex Campbell, Gerry Lockran and of course himself. He said, I bet we lost a generation of John Martyns cos of those idiots...

Well we did, Roger brooks died a couple of years ago - never having played a major festival. Jack Hudson doesn't even get played by folk radio.

The folk clubs died. The crowd moved on. Whether it was the concerted acts of rudeness, or the public didn't know what to expect, or maybe the public did know what to expect and really didn't like it. who can say, but some people didn't help the situation, because they were so damn sure they were right.

I don't know what you do Jon, but I would imagine if there were still a lot of them - you would still be working.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 06:59 AM

Just reading through what I wrote .... obviously that should have been Mort Sahl....dunno who Mort Schuman is - not to be confused though with Morte d'Atrhur, or the Moron Fraser Harmonica Gang.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: eddie1
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 07:54 AM

Finbar Furey once told me of his brother Eddie being lectured at by Peggy Seeger about using a 12-string guitar to accompany traditional Irish music. Eddie, who insisted on calling her "Mrs MacColl" asked if that applied to using the banjo to accompany Jacobite Songs! The Fureys were never asked back to the Singers Club.

Eddie

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 12:31 PM

Another myth in the making
I was there the night Eddie was on the Singers and what Peggy said was that his 12 string guitar accompaniment was too loud and drowned out the lyrics of song he was singing.
But why let facts spoil a good story.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 12:32 PM

Jim Carroll states above "What we got was a tradition being (often vaguely) remembered".

That being the case how did Ewan and Peggy know what was right and what was wrong? Acoording to one person on the programme Ewan played his disciples recordings of a singer from Azerbaijhan (sorry if the spelling is incorrect)to show them how it shold be done. Or did I get that completely wrong?

Hoot

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 12:37 PM

Yes you did
The Azerbajan Bard was an example of what the human voice is capable in terms of technique.
He then went on to compare him to an Irish singer.
It's all on The Song carriers, which have now become available again.
Try and get a copy of them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 12:50 PM

Sorry, let me correct that.
You didn't get it wrong - it was one of the (I believe deliberate) mis-statements made on the programme. Your quote is correct.
Another staggering one was the accusation (from someone I have great respect for) that MacColl and Lloyd's aim was to form folk ensembles similar to those to be found in Eastern Europe (this while talking about fiddler Michael Gorman). As proof the speaker produced the sleeve notes of the wonderful Folkways record 'Irish Jigs, Reels and Hornpipes' Sure enough - there it was in black-and-white up on the screen, which was strange as I knew Ewan and Bert both hated those ensembles.
When I checked my own copy I found that the notes had been written by American folklorist Henry Cowell and Ewan and Bert had nothing to do with the record.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 12:57 PM

To jim carroll, I love your posts.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 02:53 PM

Sorry; this is turning out like a serialised novel. I didn't respond to the 'right and wrong' question.
As far as I'm concerned each performer must decide what is right and what is wrong for themselves. In the Critics group we reached the conclusion after lengthy consideration that the English language tradition was a narrative one and that the singer was a storyteller whose stories came equipped with tunes. As far as we were concerned anything that interfered with the communication of the narrative; loud or over – elaborate accompaniment, over-ornamentation, the breaking up of words or phrases, or simply poor diction, should be avoided.
However, as Peggy pointed out in her Living Tradition letter – THIS WAS FOR US AS A GROUP. Nobody, Ewan included, ever attempted to write a rule-book of how things should be done. He, as anybody would, when asked his opinion, gave it, and it appeared to be this that upset so many people. In the sycophantic, first-name-dropping revival of those days, expressing opinions that did not fit with what was generally believed was not the way to win friends and influence people.
When the Group ended, my wife and I took up collecting with the aim of finding out what the few remaining traditional singers we could find had to say about their singing, and time after time people like Walter Pardon, Tom Lenihan, Mikeen McCarthy and Mary Delaney said exactly the above, that their aim was to tell a story.
If anybody has any doubts about this, go and listen to the recordings in The National Sound Archive.
Jim Carroll
PS Cap'n Birdseye, I think you're quite nice too!

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 02:57 AM

captain birdseye wrote; To jim carroll, I love your posts.

jim carroll wrote; Cap'n Birdseye, I think you're quite nice too!


Get a room guys!
;)

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 05:45 AM

Mentioning Gerry Lockran set me to fetch out his penultimate album Across the Tracks - what work of genius that album is! The guitar work is to my mind the finest I have ever heard anywhere. To think that there people who want this music, born out of the English folk club scene to be sidelined as - Oh not what English folk music is really about. Its almost as though the world of jazz decided - Django Rheinhardt - oh that's not real jazz.

Afterwards I checked out Gerry's website and came across these words by Derek Brimstone written as part of a tribute to him. I'm so glad that others failure to recognise the realities, on this thread wasn't actually some sort of paranoid delusion on my part - other people saw it, witnessed it.

"Another factor for the move was that the folk press swerved violently to the traditional about 10 years ago and have largely ignored the blues and contemporary side of things ever since. It affected Gerry Lockran, and played a part in driving him out of the country, and I still find it strange to talk to young folk and blues fans who have never seen him. It's very sad to think that they never will now, but happily Gerry was very prolific in the recording direction, and has left 13 albums to posterity. I may be just a little biased, but I can honestly say that they are all terrific.

If I was to single one out, I would go for 'Across the Tracks', which is to me about the ultimate in blues guitar playing and singing. Gerry himself is very excited about the very last one to be cut, shortly to be released on Autogram. It's called 'Cushioned Inside for a Soft Ride Inside' and he is backed on this by a great Dutch musician called Hans Theessink.

I'm sure that sooner or later, the pundits will turn onto Gerry Lockran, and they' ll realise at last just how bloody good he was, and maybe he'll enjoy the post-popularity that Leadbelly, Broonzy and Guthrie did.
I hope so."

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 06:22 AM

Jim Carroll's observations about the English language folk song tradition being a narrative one is interesting. But like all generalisations it is dangerous if put in the hands of the uncritical. A well-thought out and descriptive bit of analysis like"most English folk song is narrative" can so easily turn into "all English folk song is narrative" and then to "all folksong is narrative" and then to "your song is not narrative so it is not a folksong" and then to "your song is not narrative so we dont want to hear it, in fact it's not a song at all".
I too have been involved in a lot of folk music collecting recently, mostly non English language actually: and I would be very wary of any generalisations about folksong, whether in terms of form or function. Because I am well aware that generalisations can become very prescriptive in the wrong hands

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 12:43 PM

You are right of course, I should have said 'tend to be narrative'.
There are many more aspects that go to make up traditional song, and there are certainly non-narrative ones.
My point is that the singers I have listened to, and many we have talked to, with very few exceptions tend to treat the songs as narrative, sing in speech patterns, don't break up words if they can help it, pause with the punctuation - etc.
Walter Pardon had a great deal to say on the matter, as had Tom Lenihan.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 08:03 AM

11.25. tonight for part 2. Wonder if we'll get it in Scotland this time? The Radio Times said we would last week, but we didn't, and again it says we will tonight! ?????????????????

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 05:09 AM

Watched 'Episode 2' last night - words fail me!!

As far as I can see we were invited to believe that a descent into drug-soaked, navel gazing and self-indulgence (albeit accompanied by impressive guitar work) represented some sort of benign revolution and a triumph over the reactionary, fuddy-duddy 'Traddies'.

Still, I suppose they had it coming! Fancy believing that your ancestors had triumphed over adversity and created something beautiful and worth conserving, re-creating and developing? Far better to inject yourself with heroin, drop some LSD and produce some fancy licks on your Martin Strato-fender Caster. And it worked didn't it? I mean the Folk Rock boom was fashionable and 'commercially successful' for, oh ... at least 3 weeks in the early 70s.

And according to the trailer for next week's episode it gets even better ... The Pogues were there to carry on the flame! ... for another 3 weeks. Fantastic!! I can't wait!

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Erictheorange
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 02:54 AM

Probably better to wait for episode 3 before condemning it. I found episode 1 really informative, episode 2 crap, and episode 3 good - especially with the comments from young contemporary performers.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Scrump
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 04:17 AM

Having now seen episode 2, I found the content a bit lightweight but I still found the 60s/70s footage fascinating.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Footage)
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 05:15 AM

You're never going to please everyone with three one-hour programmes. I did find, however, that a lot of people were given a very easy ride and a lot more could have been made of the way the whole folk/folk-rock scene in Britain went sour in the 70s.

People often think that Ewan McColl hated Bob Dylan. I don't know if he did or not but what he was concerned about was the way Dylan's success would inevitably lead to a whole load of imitators following him. And of course, that's what happened. For every Nick Drake and John Martyn there were a hundred or more non-enitities by the early 70s, all trying to negotiate record deals and get on the Old Grey Whistle Test. The amount of bitchiness and jealousy was frightening. It's no wonder so many people became alcoholics.

Anyway, there we all were, waiting for our ship to come in when the ship stopped, turned round and sailed off in a cmpletely different direction. That was punk. So the folk clubs pulled up the drawbridge and settled down to grow old in peace. By the way, Ian Anderson's description of Cousin's as a place you could sleep while the music was on speaks volumes about the atmosphere in a lot of clubs even now.

Thw programme could also have made more of the attempt by Anderson and co. to re-brand folk in the 80s as something called 'Roots Music'. It could also have looked at the folk comics like Murphy, Connolly, Carrott and Mike Harding and the way they kept a lot of clubs open at the expense of filling them with rugby players, golfers and other assorted twats. Still, apart from Murphy (who was by far the most accomplished performer of the bunch) they've all done well for themselves so that's OK, isn't it?

Carthy made a good point about how people had such little respect for acustic music and such low expectations of folk performeers that it became something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. You still get it - people think acoustic music is inherently cheaper than rock'n'roll so an acoustic performer always seems to get paid less than a shit rock band who turn up with loads of gear.

There's also an interesting dichotomy between the views of people like Martin and Eliza Carthy on how folk music isn't about egos or individuals and the way in which so many folkies treat both the music and the scene as a form of personal therapy. Quite an interesting programme there if anyone wants to make it or if anyone cares enough to watch it.

Saddest of all, if failed completely to tackle the boys' club atmosphere of the 60s and 70s folk scene and the way women like Sandy Denny, regardless of their own talent, felt the need to attach themselves to talentless hangers-on like Trevor Lucas in order to be accepted as part of the gang.   I couldn't help but admire Anne Briggs for walking away from it all.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Scrump
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 05:49 AM

rugby players, golfers and other assorted twats

Luckily I don't play either sport so I'm not offended ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Baz
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 06:01 AM

"Rugby players, golfers and other assorted twats..."

What a load of shit.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 06:49 AM

Good point Chris B... I wondered about the distinct lack of female performers without the obligatory 4 piece male band behind her. The one section of Ms Denny performing alone came with a commentary that definately damned with faint praise - giving the impression that without the boys behind her, she wasn't going to go anywhere except the looney bin.

I didn't go to a folk club until the early 1980's so I missed that 'boys club' attitude. Our club was usually so grateful for an audience that anyone could perform, regardless of age, sex, ability and suitability. It was our oldest performer (Wally, aged 76 then, bless him) who would sing the most modern songs, whilst the younger ones who hadn't been around during the 1970's revival did the old 'dyed in the wool' proper ballads and perfectionist tuning. One guy there (looked like a blonde Donovan if Donovan were 4'10") actually spent longer tuning than he did singing.   

The club encouraged new people to sing and a couple of people made some headway into the business as a result. It certainly engendered a love of participation and inclusion which seems to be missing from the footage I see in FB of those clubs of the 1960's.

If I remember, I shall be watching the next episode closely - because I for one can't see Sean McGowan being any kind of a torch bearer unless it's for good dental care!

LTS

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 10:44 AM

Born Again Footage? Bloody hell. A thousand apologies. Too much Young's Special in the Half Moon during the 70's...

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 12:56 PM

Dear liz, are you talking about wally tate, what a character. that would be either weymouth or portland bill. dont talk about rabbits

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 04:43 PM

Dear Liz,

Thanks for the observation. I really don't remember the 70s folk scene being a happy place. I loved the music but the atmosphere sometimes was so tense and full of - I think 'disappointment' sums it up best. One of the few good points in Clinton Heylin's biography of Sandy Denny was the way it portrayed how people were so careless and unthinking to one another in the pursuit of some prize that none of them were ever going to win. I stuck it out for the sake of the music but I can't say I made many friends. My fault, maybe.

Some good times nonetheless, many of them involving Sammy Mitchell, Five Hand Reel and the aforementioned Half Moon. For what it's worth, for me the whole 'electric folk' thing came to a halt with 'Rise Up Like The Sun' by the Albion Band. After that, I don't think there was anything left to say with regard to that approach to the tradition.

The 80s 'Roots Music' thing was by no means a bad time but it did all get a bit wholemeal and trendy. Arts Centres are great but they are no substitute for a sweaty, boozy (and smoky!) club - preferably where the punters are awake.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 06:15 AM

Yes, Captain Birdseye - Wally Tate, bless his little cotton socks! I was racking my brains to try and remember his surname.... Firmly rooted in the tradition but broad minded enough to include the new arrivals in his repertoire. I can't hear 'Too soon to be out of my bed' without thinking of him standing there, clutching his pint, head thrown back and eyes closed... I remember singing with a small group of club regulars at his funeral and feeling what an honour to be asked.

The clubs were the Sun Ray at Osmington, its successors The Cornwall Hotel in Dorchester & (?)the New Inn, Martinstown and the Kingswood in Weymouth. Wally would travel miles to attend 3 or 4 clubs a week and had an inexhaustable collection of LPs for the raffles.

Now I'm worried you're going to identify the 4'10" blonde Donovan lookalike.... Ooh-err!

LTS

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 06:28 AM

Brewer's Arms in Martinstown.... knew I'd get it in the end!

LTS

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 07:23 PM

Ah well, we're still waiting for episode 2. The programmers obviously realised thay had failed to put week 1 on in week 1 so gave us week 1 in week 2 - if you get my drift. So I'll look forward to forming my opinion about episode 2 next week (totally unprejudiced/unbiased, of course!)

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Effsee
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:17 PM

Don't waste your time Tattie Bogle, Scotland apparently had little to do with the revival!

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Tootler
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 02:33 PM

Well there were a couple of exerpts from an interview with Dick Gaughan - Big Wow!

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 03:01 PM

Plus some owning up by a couple of guys that went under the name of the incredible string band. Obviously they had nothing to do with the folk music revival. There was another scot too by the name of Leitch I believe, telling us how wonderful he was. I had quite forgotten.

What the third in the series is going to contain I dread to think.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 03:42 PM

I must admit I've never been a big fan of the Mighty Peggy but this prog has removed any last atom of respect/like I had.

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 06:31 PM

anybody know what song shirley collins sang when it shows black and white video with candles around her

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 06:14 AM

Speaking from memory here but was it not 'Fair Nottamun Town' which seems to have come from the singing of Jean Ritchie. Don't know if Shirley has a version currently available on record but Jean certainly does.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 07:45 AM

no it wasn't nottamun town sorry

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Fiona
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 03:48 PM

There's a page on the BBC4 site

Folk Britannia homepage

various links to clips &c and more info on the episodes,

music from episode 2

it gives the song as 'Nottamun Town'

What is a bit of a shame is that the documentries are going out on their own, the original series included all sorts of archive stuff and newer programmes too.

fx

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 04:09 PM

Nottamun Town is on the 1964 album Folk Roots New Roots (which was also the title of the second episode of FB) that Shirley Collins made with Davey Graham. It has been reissued on CD by Fledg'ling.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 12:49 PM

no sorry it wasn't nottamun town song i haven't heard before must have been any early one before the folk roots it was jsut her singing well think it was her didn't say but was talking about her when showed then showed liek talking afterwards

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Tootler
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 05:21 PM

Part 3 on in an hour.

I had a look at the blurb in my local rag and they just mentioned the Pogues and Billy Bragg (yuk!) IIRC they were the worst part of it.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 07:24 PM

Just watched it. An excellent programme although I now have no time whatever for the much celebrated Jim Moray!

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: 8_Pints
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 07:54 PM

I agree with Rhiannon.

But why do people feel need to invent labels for things?

Raggle, Taggle - Indie something or other!

Just enjoy the diversity of music and styles, provided that the performances are conducted with sensitivity and respect for the music.

Liza Carthy summed it up I think when she said Folk Music is not 'Me' music.

Bob

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 08:00 PM

Well, they didn't mention Jim Moray's sister, who is a lovely singer and fiddler (Jackie Oates).

Kitty

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Tandy
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 03:46 AM

Tootler said:
"I had a look at the blurb in my local rag and they just mentioned the Pogues and Billy Bragg (yuk!) IIRC they were the worst part of it."

I thought the Pogues segment was interesting. They did, after all said and done, breath new life into the beast. The Men They Couldn't Hang were a suprise. I didn't realise that they wrote 'Shirt of Blue' (I had thought this to be a cover song). They were the most poltical of the 'new wave' of British folk music and, in this respect, the least mainstreem but more traditional.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 04:51 AM

Can someone please tell me what an earth Billy Bragg has got to do with folk music (apart from being self-appointed spokesman, that is)?

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 05:03 AM

Good bloody question! I saw him live years ago, and he was most definitely a 'punk' performer.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 05:19 AM

I wouldn't be too hard on Billy Bragg. He has written a few excellent songs which stand up on their own in any genre. For a while in the 80s, his writing was both better and more consistent than Richard Thompson's, for instance.

Interesting, in light of my previous post, to see Mike Harding talking about the folk comics and saying how they were a breath of fresh air and irreverence in a scene that had come to take itself too seriously.   Shame he couldn't bring himself to admit how shit most of them were - including him.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 05:24 AM

Billy Bragg writes and performs songs about peoiple's lives and experience. What else, exactly, do you call his music, presupposing that you must slap a label on it at all? He also spent considerable time during his interview describing how trad music, being resilient, poked its way back though the scorched earth that followed the much-needed punk revolution. His songs are very much 'in the tradition'. I can't count the number of times I've heard Between The Wars described as 'trad'. Why, he evens likes Morris, these days.

As for Jim Moray, yes he did mention his sister Jackie. And his dad who was featured in an archive Sidmouth clip. He has grown up surrounded by music all his life. He has always sung and did his degree in cpmposition .. . (ooer, black mark there, according to some round here). What he does is fresh and interesting and, most importantly, relevant to his contemporaries. So, no, I don't actually like everything he does and he's probably quite glad about that as I'm not supposed to. He's not doing it for 60s flower-power kids who thought 'f*lk' was something that came out of Haight Ashbury but for young people living today in a quite different world, with far more sophisticated musical taste and. lets face it, ability. And, as he says, they're building their own network of performance spaces that those stuck in the 'good enough for f*lk' ghetto don't even realise is happening.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 07:10 AM

I wasn't knocking Jim Moray's MUSIC - each to their own. What I was knocking was his bad attitude towards other folk musicians. There are many folk musicians that I would rather not hear or even stay in the same room as, but I wouldn't dream of slagging them off on national television. There is enough bad attitude towards folkies in the 'outside world' without public infighting in this way.

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 07:14 AM

bad attitude towards other folk musicians

In what way do you consider Jim Moray has such an attitude? Over the past several years that I have been aware of him and his work I have seen no evidence of this, indeed the very opposite.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 07:55 AM

I didn't think he was slagging off folk musicians. It seemed more to me that he sees himself as a sort of "anti-folk establishement" character. A combined product of youth and possibly a bit of justification perhaps?

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 08:17 AM

Justification? Yes indeed. Ever since FB3 was first transmitted, I've heard widespread mutterings that he was 'having a go' at Martin Carthy. He was doing nothing of the sort but rather questioning the strange attitude of those bystanders who seem to expect that he should be courting the approval (or disdain) of the likes of MC ( . . . it's OK if MC says it is . . . ). For a start, he just plucked MC's name out of the air, it could have been any of those which some hold to be 'the establishment'. And it is this attitude that has to to change. It matters not who belongs to this nebulous club, nor whether ot not it approves/disapproves of a new artist/direction. It's not as though Mr Carthy himself is setting himself up as chair of some unelected 'folk police committee'. Perish the thought. The way J Mo put it once (and I paraphrase wildly) was that performing music like a dog waiting for a biscuit for being a 'good boy' is the wrong way to go about it.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 08:34 AM

It's clear that Jim Moray has respect for Martin Carthy - he'd be ridiculous not to, given that it's debatable that he'd be making the music he is without the legacy of Carthyism to build upon.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 08:39 AM

Clear to me, and to you, Guest. But not to those who make up rubbish to try and back their own tinpot prejudices and posturings.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 08:51 AM

I will be the first to admit if I either misheard or misunderstood what Jim Moray said but I won't be able to listen to it again for a few days as I'm about to go away for a few days. I'll have another listen and take a further view. I have always been fair minded! I'll post again when I return.

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Tootler
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 09:09 AM

A lot of food for thought in the third programme. The Billy Bragg/Pogues bit was not as bad as I remembered from the first time I saw it.

One thing does bother me, though. Why do they have to see everything in terms of conflict? It is certainly not my experience.

Obviously the young generation do things differently, that is only natural, after all their experiences and what brought them to the music is different. It was always the case, but it does not mean the older and younger generations are in conflict.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 09:56 AM

Quote 1. "I wouldn't be too hard on Billy Bragg. He has written a few excellent songs which stand up on their own in any genre. For a while in the 80s, his writing was both better and more consistent than Richard Thompson's, for instance."

Quote 2. "Billy Bragg writes and performs songs about peoiple's lives and experience. What else, exactly, do you call his music, presupposing that you must slap a label on it at all? He also spent considerable time during his interview describing how trad music, being resilient, poked its way back though the scorched earth that followed the much-needed punk revolution. His songs are very much 'in the tradition'. I can't count the number of times I've heard Between The Wars described as 'trad'. Why, he evens likes Morris, these days."

There are some curious assumptions underlying these two quotes. For example, 'Chris B (born again scouser)' assumes that because Mr Bragg has "written a few excellent songs" (debatable!) he must be a folk singer - Schubert and George Gershwin wrote some 'excellent songs' (less debatable!) - that doesn't make them folk singers!!!

Countess Richard also assumes that "songs about people's lives and experience" automatically qualify them as folk songs - I would submit that this assumption is not necessarily true, either. Perhaps, though, they do so qualify to the "countless" individuals who think that 'Between the Wars' is 'trad' (I'm really having to bite my tongue, here, and maintain a civilised level of debate - I really, really don't want to have to use the word ABSURD!!! - oh dear, I've gone and used it!!). Mind you, if we dispense with those troublesome labels we can't distinguish anything from anything else, can we? Let's just substitute rock music for everything else - which, I suspect, is the real agenda of Mr Bragg and his supporters. Punk Morris anyone?

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 10:40 AM

I wish I'd said all that!

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: skipy
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 10:51 AM

Perhaps this could be the beginning of MOWO awards!
Skipy

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 11:05 AM

I wish I'd said all that

Can't imagine why, it's bollocks. FB was supposed to be some sort of chronology of the folk revival in Britain. This had its roots in various traditions, all of which are components of what is generically termed 'rock' (or certainly 'popular') music now. Schubert (Austrian) and Gershwin (Murkan) wrote music which in some cases was based on indigenous traditions. Some of their work is occasionally performed by 'folk' as well as classical and jazz musicans. ALL music was originally composed, not plucked from trees by yokels. Increasingly, the name of the author of a piece survives, though not always, especially when it is passed from hand to hand, voice to voice and instrument to instrument, thus becoming truly the music of the people. This process begins the moment you play or sing your new piece out, it stops being just yours and starts to be 'ours'. Just look at how many tunes of known (to some) authorship are listed on 'thesession' as Irish trad. And how many writers have been told that their own composition has been 'in the performer's family for generations'. Is it getting just a bit hard to draw your lines now? And Punk Morris? Yes, there is some (can't for the moment remember their name but someone else will be along in a minute who does).

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 11:41 AM

No, forget it. I can't be arsed.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,cardboard cutout
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 03:35 PM

re Countess Richard's 5.24 a.m. post :-
to set the record straight, no it's not Jim & Jackie's dad, or a "vintage Sidmouth clip" as I remember in FB3, but Stafford Morris Men circa 1986 with their Fool, Johnny Burke, with the infant Jim. Believe me, I was there.

And no, he's elsewhere widely on record saying he was not intending to slag off MC, and would come onto this thread to say so doubtless, if he were not on stage as I type.

Anyway, enough of that, do we now need a FB4 and FB5 programme to bring things up to date?

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 04:06 PM

Believe me, I was there

I believe you!

As for the rest, I did hope that my post of 08.17 had cleared up this myth that J Mo 'slagged off' MC, being a rehash of what he said back in February after previous 'mishearings' of what he actually said occurred on first transmission. Nevertheless, I take this opportunity to endorse everything you say and will tell him so myself on 2 October at Hoxton Hall.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Tootler
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 07:32 PM

I must admit I have been puzzled by this debate over what Jim Moray said as I didn't hear anybody slag off Martin Carthy.

What I did hear was Jim Moray have a go at those who have an excessively respectful attitude to certain individuals and not having the courage to do it their way even though it is different from MC's or anyone else's interpretation of a song. Jim Moray could just as well have said Ewan MacColl or Alex Campbell or anyone else you care to name and his message would have been exactly the same.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 02:18 PM

My view is that most of FB2 and FB3 should really have been called something like "People that used to play the folk clubs who really wanted commercial success in the rock and pop world" Sorry I couldn't dream up a short and snappy title.
You may find it hard to believe but there are still people that sing and play for their own pleasure and that of a few friends just as there always have been, and there were certainly plenty of those around during the period covered by these programmes.

Collectors such as John and Katie Howson, Jim Carroll, Keith Summers, Mike Yates and others I believe were all actively collecting during these years.

Like one of the above postings I would also know what Billy Bragg has to do with folk music? It seems that because his views are generally in line with many of MacColl's disciples he has become a spokesperson for the "Folk Scene"

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,synbyn
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 05:21 PM

Seriously underrepresented, unless I blinked: Jez Lowe, Vin Garbutt, Martin Wyndham-R, Bill Caddick, Allan Taylor, Dave Burland, ............ all of whom consistently performed fresh and interesting material throughout the period in question. So where were they? And who else ought to have been there?

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 06:10 PM

The most likely explanation of why this or that artist was not included is that there is no surviving footage. One television appearance of Martyn Wyndham-Read I definitely remember was on Late Night Lineup to plug the Ned Kelly LP. The band almost got away with the shirts Wardrobe loaned them for the recording too. But, sad to say, the tape must have ended up in a skip long ago cos it ain't on the shelf now. Certainly the FB direction was skewed and unbalanced. But it's not all down to prejudice against everybody's personal fave artists. Yes, the research was flawed but they did make some effort to track down broadcastable stuff but . . . no pictures, no television.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 06:17 PM

"Like one of the above postings I would also know what Billy Bragg has to do with folk music? It seems that because his views are generally in line with many of MacColl's disciples he has become a spokesperson for the "Folk Scene""

I suppose you mean by this that Billy Bragg espouses 'left wing' politics? Well, I posed the original question and I am proud to be one of "MacColl's disciples", but I've still got no idea what Billy Bragg has got to do with folk music. Actually, the word "disciple" is a bit too emotive for me (particularly given all the crap that people believe about MacColl). MacColl was my favourite singer and I very much admired his theories on traditional song and how it should be performed.

Before anyone else asks, I'll ask the $64000 question: was MacColl a folk singer? Now that would make an interesting debate, wouldn't it?

But hang on, I think I know the answer(s)!

(i) I like folk music and I liked Ewan MacColl - so, Ewan MacColl must have been a folk singer!

(ii) Ewan MacColl wrote some great songs about 'real people's lives' - so, Ewan MacColl must have been a folk singer!

It's great this 'logic', isn't it? I'm glad we cleared that up!

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Lanfranc
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 07:32 PM

Punk Morris does exist! Royal Liberty Morris perform with chunks of scaffold pole and coloured hankies! Royal Liberty Morris

I've watched FB a couple of times now. Some parts irritated me, some brought back memories and some diverged from my recollections. I have been attending, running and playing in Folk Clubs for 40 years and I was acutely conscious of all the singers and musicians that I liked, enjoyed and respected who were overlooked by the series.

But I suppose we should be grateful for small mercies. Better too little than none at all!

Alan

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 05:30 AM

"MacColl was my favourite singer and I very much admired his theories on traditional song and how it should be performed."

I find the above a little hard to understand. MacColl's theories on how traditional song should be performed ?

One of the most interesting things about traditional music as far as I am concerned is the amazing diversity of style and delivery, variation of lyrics and tune etc. I didn't know there was a formula, what a pity Ewan wasn't around to teach Jeannie Robertson, Margaret Barry, Bascom Lunsford, Leadbelly, Aunt Molly Jackson, Walter Pardon, Tommy Jarrell etc etc.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 05:51 AM

I didn't know there was a formula

As has been frequently recounted (probably in this very thread), young urban singers asked Ewan for advice on how to go about interpreting and performing traditional material since they had no first-hand experience. Thus the Critics' group came about in which revivalists discussed each other's artistic abilities and attempted to improve.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 06:38 AM

No, Ewan didn't teach a 'formula' (your word,'Hootenanny'!). He, and his collaborators, developed various strategies for performing traditional material. These strategies were often based on listening to just those people you list and trying to find common patterns. There was lots of 'nuts-n-bolts' stuff as well such as relaxation techniques, breath control, voice production etc., etc.
MacColl provided a critical framework for revivalists as 'Countess Richards' describes above. It may well not have been the last word on the subject but it was a great improvement on the 'it's good enough for folk' approach of many people in the folk clubs of the time.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 07:27 AM

Why is it that you dyed in the wool MacColl groupies NEVER discuss his treachery during the second world war? The man was an Army deserter for God's sake! He should have been shot! Using your logic, if HITLER had warbled away with a finger in his ear, you lot would be discussing his music on mudcat today.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Mr Fox
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 08:14 AM

Because, GuestBob, NOBODY CARES.

Except foaming right-wing nutters, of course.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 08:36 AM

Hi, 'Guestbob' (who may or may not be a "foaming right wing nutter" - I know what I think!).

I don't know the circumstances of MacColl's 'desertion', or his reasons for doing so (a forthcoming biography may shed more light on this). Nevertheless, there's a bit more of the old flawed logic sneaking in here, again, ie.: "I (foaming right ... sorry, 'Guestbob') believe that Ewan MacColl was an Army deserter, therefore Ewan MacColl had nothing useful to say about folk music ... doesn't follow 'Foamingbob' - one proposition doesn't lead to the other.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 08:45 AM

I `ad that Billy Bragg in my cab once. I asked `im why did the BBC wheel `im on every time they did a programme `bout folk music? `e reckoned if they got someone who knew anyfing abart it the punters wouldn`t understand and anyway you can`t `ave the tradition mixed up with people with a bob or two, greedy b-------s!!
What am I like??

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: skipy
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 09:04 AM

'er we go again!
Skipy

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,erictheorange
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 09:15 AM

>> GUEST,Bob
>>
>>Why is it that you dyed in the wool MacColl groupies NEVER discuss his
>>treachery during the second world war? The man was an Army deserter >>for God's sake! He should have been shot!
>>Using your logic, if HITLER had warbled away with a finger in his
>>ear, you lot would be discussing his music on mudcat today.

I have to say I was quite shocked by this as I hadn't heard this before. While I think it's hysterical nonsense to say that his desertion equates him with Hitler, I find it hard to reconcile his actions with what I understand about his beliefs.

The Nazis were anti the indigenous cultures of the nations they conquered and the forms of expression of such culture (such as folk music), and they brutally persecuted Communists and Trade Unionists. So even for somebody who did not believe in "King & Country" there would still seem to be ample reasons for fighting against them.

It will be interesting to find out if there is any record of an explaination of this by him during his lifetime, but it's hard to see how any opinions expressed by him later regarding the preservation of folk culture, or the promotion of socialist/communist ideals, could not be viewed as having at least the whiff of hypocrisy if, when the time came to defend these against a force commited to their destruction, he ran away.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,John of Elsie`s Band
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 09:21 AM

Does anyone know if Ewan MacColl was ever punished for his desertion after WW2?

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: skipy
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 11:08 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4772328.stm
Skipy

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Tootler
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 11:46 AM

One possible reason is he was a pacifist at heart, but the link above seems to suggest this was not the case.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 06:38 PM

ewan maccoll, was a member of the communist party.The communist party line was that, this was an imperialistic war, and so members were not to get involved.When Stalin decided that they should get involved, they did and fought with courage, in fact without Stalin the second world war would have been lost. Ewan maccoll was a fine songwriter and in my opinion we are all indebted to him, he was one of the instigators of the folk revival.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,erictheorange
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 07:36 PM

>>Captain Birdseye wrote
>>ewan maccoll, was a member of the communist party.
>>The communist party line was that, this was an
>>imperialistic war, and so members were not to get
>>involved.When Stalin decided that they should get
>>involved, they did and fought with courage, in
>>fact without Stalin the second world war would
>>have been lost. Ewan maccoll was a fine songwriter
>>and in my opinion we are all indebted to him, he
>>was one of the instigators of the folk revival.

The reality was (and it was well known at the time) that the Trade Unionists and Communists were being imprisoned and murdered on a grand scale by the Nazis, and the Nazi doctrine of Germanization worked to eradicate local cultural identity in favour of an imposed German one.

Even at the time many CPGB members were against their party's stance and chose to serve in the armed forces. Just because one's party advocates an action it is still down to an individuals conscience how they choose to act.

Many communists in many nations fought bravely, and many died, but evidently MacColl wasn't one of them. Had everybody taken his approach there would have been no folk revival in Britain as it would have been supressed - replaced with a Germanized facsimile.

If MacColl had disagreed with fighting he had the honourable option of declaring himself a concientious objector and taking a non-combatant role or accepting any punishment dealt out by the tribunals. Many concientious objectors fulfilled important humanitarian roles during the war, including high risk jobs such as bomb disposal in civilian areas. Many others chose prison rather than to go against their beliefs. Desertion, particularly by anybody yet to be exposed to the traumatic stress of combat, can surely only be considered an act of cowardice?

Ewan MacColl certainly was a fine songwriter and obviously had a huge contribution to the folk revival, however for me from now on his image will always be tarnished by this.


p.s.
>>When Stalin decided that they should get involved

I think you'll find that it was Hitler that decided that the Communists should be involved, by invading Russia.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 03:59 AM

I promised myself I would not get involved in any more of these vacuous arguments!
Had MacColl been the Stalinist toady that he is often accused of being he would have supported the war - he didn't. He took the line that British, German, Austrian, French, Italian, American....... workers slaughtering each other was not for him and he had the courage to act on his belief.
Had the war been a genuinly anti- facist one the allies would have intervened in Spain three years earlier and prevented a facist disctator taking over (and maybe slowed down Germany's aspirations in the process).
My father fought in Spain, was excommunicated from his religion, got himself an MI5 record as a 'premature anti-facist' and was blacklisted from his work. The government of the day (you know - the 'peace in our time' boys) were quite happy to see Czechoslovakia and Poland invaded as long as it didn't affect them - that's how anti-facist they were, and the behaviour of various governments in the intervening years since the war has called into question who were fascists and who were kettles calling pots black!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,erictheorange
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 04:55 AM

>>Had MacColl been the Stalinist toady that he is often
>>accused of being he would have supported the war

As mentioned by Dick Miles, The Communist Party of Great Britain was against participation in the war until 1941 when the USSR was invaded, at which point it reversed its stance. MacColl deserted in 1940.


>>Had the war been a genuinly anti- facist one the allies
>>would have intervened in Spain three years earlier and
>>prevented a facist disctator taking over (and maybe
>>slowed down Germany's aspirations in the process)

Good point. But whether or not the war could have been considered anti-fascist, Communists had good reasons to justify participation in such a conflict. For an example refer to the Chinese Communists participation with their enemy the Chinese Nationalists in the fight against Japanese invasion.


>>The government of the day (you know - the 'peace in our
>>time' boys) were quite happy to see Czechoslovakia and
>>Poland invaded as long as it didn't affect them - that's
>>how anti-facist they were

Errrrrrm - Britain & France went to war because Poland was invaded.


>>and the behaviour of various governments in the
>>intervening years since the war has called into
>>question who were fascists and who were kettles
>>calling pots black!

So it would have been better, or at least no worse, if the Nazis had won?


>>He took the line that British, German, Austrian, French,
>>Italian, American....... workers slaughtering each other
>>was not for him and he had the courage to act on his
>>belief.

If he'd stood up and had the courage of his convictions to refuse to serve and accept the punishment (like over 61000 other Britons did) that would have been one thing, but to run away is something very different.


>> My father fought in Spain, was excommunicated from his
>> religion, got himself an MI5 record as a 'premature
>> anti-facist' and was blacklisted from his work.

I would say that it sounds like there was a big difference between your father's and MacColl's actions. From what you say, your father was a man of conviction who followed his beliefs. He stood up for what he thought was right, put his life on the line, and took the consequences - something everybody can respect.

MacColl ran away, and hence avoided the consequences. It would appear that MacColl wasn't made of such stern stuff as your father.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 06:05 AM

To Shimrod, your words:
'it's good enough for folk' approach of many people in the folk clubs of the time.

May I ask if you were around the London folk clubs at the time ? and able to confirm this attitude?

I mention London in particular as this is where the Ballads & Blues Club was and is the club which Peggy and Ewan decided was no longer for them.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: Scrump
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 06:27 AM

This question of MacColl's desertion and political beliefs, etc., brings us to the general question as to whether you can separate the man from the music - or indeed, any famous person who achieved great things in their lifetime, from what they may have been like as a person or done in their personal life.

My view is that MacColl was certainly no saint and did things I may not approve of, but nobody's perfect, and to me his legacy in terms of the songs he wrote, his contribution to the Radio Ballads and the folk movement in general is the most important thing to me and outweighs anything he did outside of his involvement in folk music.

MacColl's case is not unique - many people hate Wagner because he was anti-semitic and Hitler was a fan of his. He was also a bit of a sponger and an adulterer at times, and probably not a very nice chap in many ways, except he was a doting husband and father to his second wife and children. But my view in this case is, I would prefer to judge the music on its own merits and not be influenced by what its composer was like as a person. It might be difficult to separate the two things, but I like to try.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 08:45 AM

As far as I'm concerned the important thing about MacColl is that he devoted his life first to promoting the music he believed to belong to (for the want of a better phrase) 'the common people', and to using that music music to attempt to improve their lot.
Unlike most of the 'folk celebrities' (with notable exceptions), rather than keep his head below the parapet, he was there for the anti-Vietnam campaign, the miners strike, the peace movement, the women's movement, anti-Aparthied campaign, anti fascist campaigns in Greece, Chile, Turkey.... you name it; right up to his death.
Whatever his failings, I'll continue to drink to his memory - and be ever-grateful for his generosity towards others who shared his love of traditional song.
As they say here in Ireland - 'stuff the begrudgers'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,erictheorange
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 11:03 AM

Just to tie things up so people can understand my motivations, this is copied from my post regarding MacColls accent. Appologies for the repetition to anybody reading both threads.

I posted this question in good faith following on from the circumstances I described because I believe that to understand more about the man enables one to better put his actions and opinions in context.

With particular reference to the desertion issue, I don't really care except with regard to any relevance it might have in comparison with his stated beliefs - comparing his views to his actions.

In this case desertion of British troops might reasonably be considered to be beneficial to the Nazis - whose policy of "Germanization" would seem to be in direct conflict with any movement to preserve or promote indigenous folk traditions. The Nazi persecution of Communists and Trade Unionists would also seem to be in direct conflict with MacColls political beliefs.

In this context I think it is not unreasonable to question how his actions at the time can be reconcilled with all that he seemed to stand for later in his life.

It may be that it is not possible to reconcile these - people do strange things sometimes.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 01:25 PM

Hootenanny,

The only London club I ever went to was the Singers' Club - which, for me, was a great experience.

In the late 60s/ early 70s I also went to clubs in Peterborough, Norwich, Chelmsford, Nottingham, Birmingham, Liverpool, Chester and Manchester. I have to say that it was those clubs which were MacColl influenced that I enjoyed the most.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Winger
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 03:39 PM

"Unlike most of the 'folk celebrities' (with notable exceptions), rather than keep his head below the parapet, he was there for the anti-Vietnam campaign, the miners strike, the peace movement, the women's movement, anti-Aparthied campaign, anti fascist campaigns in Greece, Chile, Turkey.... you name it; right up to his death."

But not The Holocaust, Jim?

I find it amazing that in his autobiography, "Journeyman", he skips the war years. Never referring to one of the major events in the history of mankind.

I've heard it said that he was prolific as a song-writer in those years. Small consolation to those dying in Belsen and Dauchau.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 03:51 PM

Thanks for the reply Shimrod.
Preferring MacColl and the clubs that he influenced is fine we all have our own preferences.

But the time when Ewan & Peggy went to form the Singers Club was in the early sixties, not the late sixties early seventies.

At the Ballads and Blues it was never a policy of "it's good enough for folk", If you were to see a list of the performers that sang there during and after Peggy and Ewan's time you would know this. They may not have been to your taste but they were always good for an enjoyable Saturday night without the lectures.

I was there most weeks for around seven years perhaps a little more and only wish that more of today's clubs came up to that standard.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:16 AM

Hootenanny,

I'm sad to say that I never attended the 'Ballads and Blues' club, either before or after Ewan and Peggy's time, so can't comment. I can report, though, that the "it's good enough for folk" attitude did occur, amongst some factions, in the provincial clubs of the time.

I'm assuming that by "lectures" you're referring to some of Ewan and Peggy's introductions (?). I know it's probably a bit sad but I actually used to enjoy these as I was very hungry for information about the music at that time.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:24 AM

Winger
At the time we are discussing, knowledge of the concentration camps was virtually non-existant. British politicians had dismissed reports of them as 'the invention of whining Yids'.
MacColl's theatre work, before and after the war, was political and was devoted to the betterment of humanity as a whole.
I don't know whether his remaining in the army would have made any difference to the six million who died in the camps - do you? His anti-facist stance with songs such as Crooked Crosses made it quite clear where he stood on the matter. I repeat, he believed that one national group of workers slaughtering another wasn't for him - In the light of his devoting his life to the causes he did, I can live with that.
I find there to be a magnificent smugness about people pontificating about how somebody should have behaved sixty years ago.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 09:49 AM

Im much more interested in the people who supplied the money for the nazis, I think they are the ones we should be criticising, not Maccoll, for deserting from the army.
Ewan maccoll was an excellent songwriter, who along with others got the folk revival, kick started and who helped to keep it goingand who providedus with many fine songs.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,synbyn
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 12:42 PM

some time ago i asked why eg Jez Lowe & Bill Caddick & Vin Garbutt weren't represented- surely there is existing footage of them in the Pogues era, and they were far more important songwriters than the featured polemicists- they make their points subtly and therefore are more effective than the beat em with a stick brigade. Can't believe there was no agenda!

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 03:16 PM

Jim,

Rubbish. Dachau was established in 1933 and its existance and those of others inside Germany was well known. If everyone had taken the attitude that their involvement in the war wouldn't have made a difference, then heaven help us! I've spent some time documenting the experiences of the World War II generation (British, American and European) and no one I've met went willingly to war. They went because they were conscripted or because their conscience told them they had to. The passing of time doesn't excuse MacColl. There are still survivors of concentration camps alive today who ask why we didn't help when their suffering was so apparent.

BTW, I think MacColl was a superb songwriter.

Subject: RE: Folk Britannia
From: GUEST,Winger
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 06:04 PM

Sorry, please attribute previous post to Winger.