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Maui: stuns'l booms

stormalong 11 Sep 06 - 08:47 AM
mack/misophist 11 Sep 06 - 09:15 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 11 Sep 06 - 09:19 AM
Lady Hillary 11 Sep 06 - 11:56 AM
Rumncoke 11 Sep 06 - 12:26 PM
Dead Horse 11 Sep 06 - 02:46 PM
kendall 11 Sep 06 - 04:10 PM
Crane Driver 11 Sep 06 - 04:32 PM
Skivee 11 Sep 06 - 04:39 PM
ClaireBear 11 Sep 06 - 04:54 PM
Les from Hull 11 Sep 06 - 05:39 PM
Barry Finn 11 Sep 06 - 05:40 PM
Charley Noble 11 Sep 06 - 05:41 PM
GUEST,thurg 11 Sep 06 - 05:52 PM
Barry Finn 11 Sep 06 - 06:40 PM
Dead Horse 12 Sep 06 - 02:34 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 12 Sep 06 - 02:44 PM
Charley Noble 12 Sep 06 - 05:40 PM
Bill D 12 Sep 06 - 06:16 PM
Barry Finn 12 Sep 06 - 06:24 PM
Charley Noble 12 Sep 06 - 07:58 PM
GUEST,Rev 13 Sep 06 - 02:13 AM
Charley Noble 13 Sep 06 - 08:06 AM
Rumncoke 13 Sep 06 - 09:29 AM
Les from Hull 13 Sep 06 - 11:11 AM
Big Mick 13 Sep 06 - 11:19 AM
Anglo 13 Sep 06 - 11:58 AM
DonMeixner 13 Sep 06 - 12:22 PM
Big Mick 13 Sep 06 - 12:23 PM
Charley Noble 13 Sep 06 - 02:15 PM
Barry Finn 13 Sep 06 - 02:21 PM
GUEST 13 Sep 06 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,thurg 13 Sep 06 - 03:33 PM
Lighter 13 Sep 06 - 04:10 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Sep 06 - 05:57 PM
Rumncoke 13 Sep 06 - 05:59 PM
GUEST,thurg 13 Sep 06 - 06:13 PM
Lighter 13 Sep 06 - 07:08 PM
Charley Noble 13 Sep 06 - 10:48 PM
jeffp 13 Sep 06 - 10:58 PM
The Sandman 13 Sep 06 - 11:01 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Sep 06 - 11:19 PM
Lighter 13 Sep 06 - 11:19 PM
GUEST,Rowan 13 Sep 06 - 11:28 PM
Barry Finn 14 Sep 06 - 03:18 AM
stormalong 14 Sep 06 - 04:42 AM
Charley Noble 14 Sep 06 - 08:52 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 14 Sep 06 - 09:01 AM
GUEST,thurg 14 Sep 06 - 09:17 AM
Charley Noble 14 Sep 06 - 10:54 AM
dick greenhaus 14 Sep 06 - 12:12 PM
Les from Hull 14 Sep 06 - 12:17 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 14 Sep 06 - 12:18 PM
Charley Noble 14 Sep 06 - 12:40 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 14 Sep 06 - 12:41 PM
Alaska Mike 14 Sep 06 - 12:49 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 14 Sep 06 - 12:52 PM
Charley Noble 14 Sep 06 - 05:49 PM
Greg B 15 Sep 06 - 01:00 PM
Charley Noble 15 Sep 06 - 02:59 PM
Big Mick 15 Sep 06 - 03:29 PM
GUEST,Pelrad 15 Sep 06 - 08:12 PM
GUEST,Paul Blackburn 11 Oct 06 - 03:48 PM
Dead Horse 12 Oct 06 - 04:22 PM
Les from Hull 12 Oct 06 - 05:15 PM
Les from Hull 12 Oct 06 - 05:22 PM
GUEST,DonMeixner 12 Oct 06 - 05:36 PM
Les from Hull 12 Oct 06 - 06:42 PM
Rowan 13 Oct 06 - 01:36 AM
GUEST,EBarnacle 13 Oct 06 - 11:32 PM
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Subject: Maui: stuns'l booms: sound
From: stormalong
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 08:47 AM

In 'Rolling down to old Maui' at

http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=5051

we have the lines:

Our stuns'l booms are carried away
What care we for that sound?

Somebody kindly explained to me what stuns'l booms actually are, but could anyone please explain the exact meaning of these lines?

Stormalong


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: mack/misophist
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 09:15 AM

Some one else will certainly have a more precise explanation than this. The stunsails are smallish sails towards the extreems of the masts; the booms, of course, help hold and position them. The ship is in some bad weather ("a living gale is after us), so the sound must be the gear being ripped away. Seems simple enough.

Note: Stunsail is short for studding sail. See here.


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 09:19 AM

Good Job Mack ;-)

Light sails set outside the square sails, on booms rigged out for that purpose. They are only carried with a fair wind and in moderate weather. By increasing sail area, the speed of the ship is improved downwind.


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Lady Hillary
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 11:56 AM

There were/are several ways of rigging stuns'ls. All of them involved rigging extensions on the yardarms so that additional sails could be carried. These sails were only carried when before the wind as they would add more drag and not be efficient going into the wind. As they extended well beyond the beam, rigging bowlines to stiffen the luff of the sail would not have worked.

EBarnacle


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Rumncoke
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 12:26 PM

Strange - someone sang this at Swanage on Saturday and I was struck then by the incongruity.

OK I'm a sailor and have used shanties in ernest - and other places too -

Square rigged sails hang from yards or rather from - no that is too technical - they hang from yards - the wooden or metal cross pieces.

Masts stand almost vertically up from the deck or keel and they have attachment points from which yards hang horisontally.

In very light breezes it is (economically) necessary to spread as much canvas as possible, so the stuns'ls are set on yards which are extensions of the ordinary ones. They can be clipped on, or be attached to rings, or with metal yards they can be pulled out from inside the hollow tubes. They are fixed in place after the sail has been fastened on, and run out. They and their suports are are too flimsy for someone to deploy the sail after the yard is extended.

So it should be stuns'l yards not booms.

Anne


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Dead Horse
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 02:46 PM

No. The Stun's'l boom is an extension of the yard to which it is attached. So the yard is still the main yard, main upper t'gallant yard, lower t'gallant yard etc.
The "What care we for that sound" phrase is slightly more puzzling, as if the gear had been "carried away", then the poor old matelot would no doubt have to get aloft and sort it out, and in a living gale, no less!
But there are absolutely heaps of incongruities in shanties, so I shouldnt worry too much about it, mate!


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: kendall
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 04:10 PM

"You mean on top of everything else this ship is rigged?"
From Stan Frieberg's, History of the United States. One of the funniest things I have ever come across.

I've always thought the line should be, ..."we don't care for that sound"


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Crane Driver
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 04:32 PM

I always assumed that, being on the homeward passage and shortly to sign off, no-one cared too much about losing the little stuns'ls, they just wanted to get home. Whalermen only did 'real' sailing work on the journeys out and home, the rest of the time being spent in rowing and butchery work. If the gear got damaged on the journey out to the whaling grounds, someone would have to fix it for the trip home, but damage on the way back would be seen as the next crew's problem. I imagine some skippers would have different views on that!

Combined with the slightly affected wording of 'what care we for that sound' as noted above, perhaps this suggests the song wasn't written by a real sailor, but by someone of a more literary persuasion with a romantic, if fairly well informed, view of the whole business.

Guesswork is cheap - Guinness costs money

Andrew


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Skivee
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 04:39 PM

The "what care we for that sound" line is a pun on the word "boom".
It doesn't indicate ignorance of shipatudinalism.


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: ClaireBear
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 04:54 PM

I thought the line was "we care not for that sound" -- more in line with what Kendall says. The meaning of that wording would be suitably ambiguous.


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Les from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 05:39 PM

Surely stuns'l booms only get carried away if the stuns'ls are set. And you would not set stuns'ls in a 'living gale'. Any other explanation form someone with more practical knowledge?


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 05:40 PM

A Studding Sail. When running with the wind all yards set square & all sails set to squeeze out every breath of push the stuns'l booms
would be set. They're set from the out'er most ends of the yards, the yard arms. They're square light weather sails (they're not used in more than a good breez) & usually only used on a long run, as they're timely & fairly difficult to set, like when you're in the trade winds. No wearimg or tacking, not much reason to change course or your run. In a strong breeze of a good blow kiss 'em good bye. Picture the main sails, then picture sails set port & starboard or directly left & right of that sail hanging outward of the mains yard (or boom). The closest I can think of on a fore & aft rig would be running "wing & wing" & then some.

Barry


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 05:41 PM

I somehow doubt that there is a pun intended here.

I went back to Colcord's version of this song in her SONGS OF AMERICAN SAILORMEN, pp. 197-198, and found similar wording to that of Hugill for this verse:

Once more we sail with a favororing gale
Toward our distant home,
Our mainmast sprung, we're almost done,
Still we ride the ocean's faom.
Our stun'sail booms are carried away,
What care we for that sound,
A living gale is after us,
Hurrah! We're homeward bound.

My best guess is that the crew's all hoping that the ship will hold together to make it home, even with the "mainmast sprung" and the "stun'sail booms" carried away. The what care we for the sound of them carrying away is pure bravado. Such booms were only used in light winds and if a gale was after them they would have been unshipped anyway. Maybe they're happy not to have to go aloft and do that work, if they've already been ripped away. But they probbly have to go aloft anyway and clean up the mess that's left.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 05:52 PM

I was just taking a break from reading the very literate and romantic 1886-87 journal of Daniel McNab, a seaman from Malagash, Nova Scotia, when I read (above): "Combined with the slightly affected wording of 'what care we for that sound' ... , perhaps this suggests the song wasn't written by a real sailor, but by someone of a more literary persuasion with a romantic, if fairly well informed, view of the whole business." While perhaps not the norm, there does not seem to have been a real shortage of literate sailors of romantic persuasion. Don't forget, Herman Melville was a whaler before he got into the writing business!


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 06:40 PM

"Rollin down to ol Maui". Maui is not that far off from the Tropic of Cancer, so depending on the time of year you could catch the 'westerlies trade winds' & head in one direction or catch the 'northeast trade winds' & head in a different direction. The timing also makes a difference. I sailed from Maui around July after the Mendecino Highs set in back in 79 or 80 & we were able to catch the westerlies & rollin down 'from' Maui, into San Diego.
From San Francisco or from farther north you'd follow the northeast trades & it's generaly (depending on other factors including time of year) rollin downhill all the way or rollin down to ol Maui. When following the trades is always downhill or downwind.

Barry


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Dead Horse
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 02:34 PM

The crew WOULD have to go aloft and repair the damage.
No skipper would countenance having his crew paid off while the vessel was left in a mess, or with a bilge full of water either. Thats why the last shanty aboard ship was likely to be a pumping shanty like "Leave her Johnnie".
If the first shanty was also a pumps job, I would jump ship afore the second shanty :-)


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 02:44 PM

Nobody minded working to get the ship home, every mile closer was a good mile ;-)


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 05:40 PM

"I'm sure we've pumped this bit before!"

Thanks to Tony Goodenough.

I'm really not convinced that whalers would ever use stun'ls. That was more a clipper ship affectation and according to some captains hardly worth the pain and suffering.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble, safe ashore in his armchair


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 06:16 PM

here they are


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Barry Finn
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 06:24 PM

Those were some long runs in the trades Charlie. Once set they'd roll on for until it nasty & generally in the trades it's fair winds. We traveled a couple thousand nautical miles before the wind died & stayed dead for over 2 weeks.
We were whistling dixie.

Barry


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 07:58 PM

Bill-

Nice stuns'ls!

Is this a tops'l schooner or something bigger?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: GUEST,Rev
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 02:13 AM

I have sometimes heard and/or seen the line as "Our stuns'l bones are carried away," "bones" being a sailors' slang term for any spars. That avoids the confusion over booms vs. yards, etc...


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 08:06 AM

Rev-

I usually cringe when I hear someone sing "stuns'l bones." I haven't found a trace of evidence to support that "bones" was sailor slang for "spars." Good guess but no grog for you!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Rumncoke
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 09:29 AM

There isn't any confusion over booms and yards - not on my watch.

A boom is found on the bottom of a fore and aft sail, where fitted.

A yard is found on the top of a square sail. (OK it is actually trapezoid but is is called square)

There are other types of spar which support sails - sprits for instance. I have never known a sailor to get them confused.

In the photo from Bill you can see stuns'l yards with rings, and also part of a stays'l.

Sigh.

Here's me with a dose of Sea Fever again.


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Les from Hull
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 11:11 AM

Charley Noble it's Pride II

In all my references (including the very comprehensive 'Seamanship in the Age of Sail' by John Harland) they are called booms. A boom is usually something for holding something else out or for fending something else off.


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 11:19 AM

Are there any songs written about the Pride of Baltimore, and its sinking?

Mick


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Anglo
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 11:58 AM

John Paul Jones also used stunsail booms, apparently. From one version of "The Stately Southerner":

"Out booms, out booms", our skipper cried, "Out booms and give her sheet,"
For the swiftest keel that ever was lauched in all of the British fleet
Came bearing down upon us, with the white foam at her bow,
"Out booms, out booms, and give her sheet, spare not your canvas now."


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: DonMeixner
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 12:22 PM

Charlie,

I've only ever heard them in the song called "Bones". But I've only heard two or three recorded versions of it. I wonder if they are "Whaler" slang specifically.

And I imagine I'd not care for the sound of rigging being torn away no matter how it was stated in a song.

Don


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 12:23 PM

Until this thread, I had never heard bones. Funny.


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 02:15 PM

Les-

Thanks for the image of the Pride of Baltimore II, and it is indeed rigged as a tops'l schooner, square sails above the fore an' aft ones.

The jib bone's connected to the fores'l bone,
The mains'l bone's connected to the tops'l bone;
The spanker bone's connected to the crojack bone;
Let's all drink in praise of the Lord!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 02:21 PM

Funny Bones, Mick?
Barry


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 02:59 PM

another way of looking at it. As a rhetorical question
Our stuns'l booms are carried away,
what care we for that sound?? (answer we don't care to hear it)(my grandad used to say I don't care for this or that meaning he didn't like it)

Just a thought?

Because no one would want any part of their rigging torn away as it would possibly lead to them not getting home.


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 03:33 PM

I take "what care we ... " etc. to mean "we don't give a damn"; i.e., "we couldn't care less ... " (or, we could care less, however you prefer the expression; don't want to open up that can of worms). In other words, it ain't going to slow down or worry a tough and able bunch like us (cf. Charley Noble, above).


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 04:10 PM

My interpretation of the lines has always been the same as that given by Charley Noble and thurg. The song is very much in the Romantic style, with psychological realism and practical seamanship taking the back seat.

"We're not worried about that sound 'cause it shows just how fast we're going home."

Rumncoke's interpretation of "boom" as limited to fore-and-aft sails may be correct in current usage, but here's what Admiral Smyth had to say in "The Sailor's Word-Book" in the 1860's:

"Studding-Sail Boom. A spar rigged out for the purpose of setting a studding-sail, and taking its name from the sail it belongs to."


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 05:57 PM

Darcy Lever, 1819 (further editions to 1863), "The Young Sea Officer's Sheet Anchor or a Key to the Leading of Rigging...," goes in detail into the subject of studding sails and studding sail booms.
The illustrations, directions for use and instructions on when and how to set them and take them down, are quite detailed.

This wonderful book (the second edition, which was expanded for both the Royal Navy and for the East India Company) has been carefully reprinted by Dover. Very educational for a landlubber like me.


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Rumncoke
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 05:59 PM

Duh - I am enlightened!!

I was thinking of the sails and the yards they are bent onto - the higher ones could be set by lines running down to the yard below, but stuns'ls are carried outboard, so the lowest one would require a spar extended - that is 'rigged out', in order to hold the line from the lower outer corner of the stuns'l and spread it correctly.

A line from the outer corner of a stuns'l would be at the wrong angle if taken directly to the deck, and as a spar holding out the lower edge of a sail is a boom, that is what the spar would be called.

Thank you Lighter, for the definition.

Anne


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 06:13 PM

Okay, I learned the song from a Stan Rogers recording, and I heard him say "bones" rather than "booms" - have we established that the term in question is defintely "booms" (and that Stan presumably got it wrong or had a moment of mispronunciation)?

(I'm merely an armchair sailor, and even in my armchair I usually don't venture more than a few feet from the living-room walls, even though I know it's far safer out in the middle of the floor, especially in stormy weather).


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 07:08 PM

Well, since this is folk music, you can sing "booms," which is normal and understandable, or you can sing "bones," which is...different.


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 10:48 PM

"What care we for that sound" may be a rhetorical question from one of the shanty singers, implying that the sound of the stuns'ls breaking away is not in the proper pitch. As a matter of fact at this point the entire ship's rigging should be retuned! It boggles my mind how they managed to get any serious singing done aboard ship.

Stan Rogers freely admited that when it came to nautical terminology he was very much at sea. In "Barret's Privateer" there's that curious line where "the main truck took off both me legs; it's hard to imagine how a little knob on the top of the mast could do that but what the hell, haul away, me bully boys!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: jeffp
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 10:58 PM

I suspect that the main truck in question was a cannon truck (the wooden assembly that supports the cannon barrel).


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 11:01 PM

Chris Roche is needed.


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 11:19 PM

jeffp is right, Charley. Loose cannon and all that!


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 11:19 PM

The "main truck" was a delivery truck that brought supplies to ships at sea ("the bounding main"). The "main" is slippery when wet, and if a driver lost control the results could be disastrous.


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 11:28 PM

Although I'm no expert I've always associated the word "trunnion" with the timber carriage on wheels that carries the cannon, referred to by jeffp as the "cannon truck". But, when dealing with theodolites and other telescope-type surveying instruments, the trunnion is the pair of horizontal 'posts' the theodolite's telescope uses as axles. The equivalent on a cannon would be the pair of horizontal posts (cast with the barrel) mounting the cannon in the timber carriage and used as pivots when sighting/aiming the cannon. I suspect different navies may use different terminology.

Either way, it's more likely to remove one's legs than the truck on any mast.

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 03:18 AM

"Every night his ghost can be seen
Sitting on the main truck all wet & green"

Barry


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: stormalong
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 04:42 AM

Chris Roche is actually the person who told me what stuns'l booms were when I asked him after the Shanty Crew's excellent workshop at Broadstairs Folk Week, but he wasn't so sure about the "sound" issue which is why I aksed it here!

Stan Roger's "main truck" is discussed here (http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~jacktar/barretts.html):

"Eric Ruff curator of the Yarmouth County Museum once discussed this with Stan Rogers, who at first told him that "main truck" meant gun carriage but later took Eric's advice and decided use to use the explanation that it refers to the very top of the mast."

Gun carriage would be my preferred rationalisation, but then "main" doesn't make much sense so I'd probably want to change the words from "the maintruck" to "a gun truck".


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 08:52 AM

Hear, hear, for Eric Ruff of Yarmouth, Nova Scotia, and member of the Yarmouth Shantymen. At least someone in this discussion has his main truck screwed on Bristol fashion!

With regard to gun carriage wheels being referred to as "trucks," I'd like to remind members, and you millions of lurkers as well, that the Antelope sloop was only armed with four-pounders (and those were cracked). It's true that the cannons in question weighed more than four pounds (that's a reference to the approximate weight of their cannon balls) but the entire assembly weighed about 400 pounds, distributed between four trucks. Geeze, some wimp stepped on my toe!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 09:01 AM

The "Crack" four pounders were not cracked Charley. Crack was an old expression for "the best"

Yours, Aye. Dave (who's main truck was not screwed on in Bristol but got wet on on the North Atlantic many times ) ;-)


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 09:17 AM

In the context of the song - "The Antelope sloop was a sickening sight", etc. - the implication is that the crackED four-pounders were just that - cracked. That's the way Stan R. spelled it on the lyric sheet enclosed in the album (in his own handwriting, no less!).


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 10:54 AM

So there, Dave!

Thanks for the support, thurg!

Hanging on by the reef-tackle fall,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 12:12 PM

Just to remind folks that sailors were not always precise in their terminology as are today's wannabees (including myself)


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Les from Hull
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 12:17 PM

True Dick, and also it's worth pointing out that many sailor songs weren't written by sailors.


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 12:18 PM

And gun barrels are not cracked, they are split, but this thread is becoming very pedantic. ;-)


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 12:40 PM

Dave-

You're right, of course, and some of us are flogging a dead horse.

But I really have found parts of this thread informative, and other parts amusing.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 12:41 PM

Nice to see some nautical stuff discussed here eh Charley? ;-)


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 12:49 PM

Who gives a flying stuns'l boom. They're fun songs to sing even if the terminology is skewed. I wish Stan was around to give us some more.

Mike


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 12:52 PM

I'll second that Mike, Stan wrote awesome songs...Northwest Passage is my favourite.


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 05:49 PM

And for the record I'm fond of Jeannie C, White Squall, Lockkeeper, The Bluenose, Make & Break Harbour, Fogerty's Cove, Field Behind the Plow, 45 Years, Mary Ellen Carter ... oh, well!

But I hate "Harris and The Mare."

Stuff that up your stuns'l!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Greg B
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 01:00 PM

You just don't like 'Harris' because you can't
do it, Charley! :-)

In fact, hardly anybody can.

But, I once heard Mary Travers sing it, and it was
sublime.

Then again, she's about as good a baritone as Stan was...


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 02:59 PM

GregB-

More thread drift!

It's more likely that I object to the message in "Harris and The Mare." I don't like to see pacifists get bullied and innocent people brutalized or killed. I much prefer the message in "The House of Orange." But if Stan were still around we'd have a good argument, I'm sure, about my interpretations of both songs. And because he was bigger than me he'd probably win the argument, then feel guilty, and buy me a drink!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 03:29 PM

It's not a message, Charley, its a story. House of Orange has a message, Harris and the Mare is a good yarn.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: GUEST,Pelrad
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 08:12 PM

Mick, Everett Brown wrote an instrumental piece titled "Pride of Baltimore," shortly after she sank. It is on the Wickford Express album 'Fair Winds.'

Also, I found the following paragraph on the Pride of Baltimore II Captain's webpage: http://www.pride2.org/NewPrideSite/Pride2/Logs/1098.html
"Yet another creative connection with the ship was re-established in Marina Del Rey when Baltimore musician Patrick O'Brennan came aboard to provide entertainment during a reception for the Maryland Film Commission. Pat performed in Baltimore when the ship took her leave last December and has written two songs relating to the PRIDE legacy. One is dedicated to the "old boat," and is fittingly entitled "Pride of Baltimore." I was flattered when Pat told me that the other song, entitled "Pride II," was inspired by logs that I wrote last winter during the passage from Panama to Hawaii, which he had followed on the internet."


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: GUEST,Paul Blackburn
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 03:48 PM

Wow, two great songs in one morning. I went looking for the chords to My Favorite Spring, and found Don's posting, then searched his posts and this about the Rogers classic.

Nice topics, folks. Thanks for being out there.


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Dead Horse
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 04:22 PM

Pay attention now. I may ask questions later.
Masts on square riggers usually come in three parts.
The big bit, that sticks out of the deck (or floor), a slightly smaller bit is joined to the top of that bit, then another even smaller bit is stuck on top of that bit. OK so far?
The masts have names, and so too do the bits that go to make 'em.
The mast nearest the front (or bow) is called The Foremast. And that too is the name for the first bit of it that sticks up out of the deck. The next bit up on this 'ere "foremast" is called the "fore-top-gallant-mast" or (as we landlubbers wot knows a bit and wish to appear swanky calls it) fore't'gall'nt.
The next bit up from THAT is called the "Fore-top-mast" or fore-top.
Then as ye travel further back along the deck ye will find another bloody great mast. This is called The Mainmast. And guess what? The first bit of that mast also has the same name. The bit above that is called the "main-top-gallant" (main't'gall'nt) and the bit above that is called the Main-top-mast or maintop.
If this boat (ship) has only three masts, the last one is called The Mizzen-mast. Everything already said about the Fore & Main masts also applies to this mast.
If there be more than three masts, ye will have to ask someone who knows their names, cos I sure as hell dont! I believe the word Crojik is mentioned somewhere.......
Anything connected to these various bits, such as sails, lengths of wood, rope etc is also called after these bits i.e. the lump of canvas attached to the fore mast is called the fore-sail (or fore course) the canvas above that is called the fore-top-gallant-sail. If there be TWO sails on the t'gall'nt then they would be called lower and upper t'gall'nt sails accordingly. Same goes for the top bit. If there be any sail above the topsail, it be called a "royal".
Anyway, the whole point of this little lesson is this :-
The bit where the various pieces of mast meet is called a "truck"
So the main truck is the joining up bit where the main mast meets the main-top-gallant mast, see ?
(and by the way, "bits" are something else entirely)

If any of this turns out to be a complete load of bollards, then you didnt hear it from me, right!


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Les from Hull
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 05:15 PM

Sorry - mast, topmast, topgallant mast (in that order). Than on a proper big ship there's a royal mast, but you might think that's part of the topmast, because it sometimes doesn't overlap the topgallant mast.

On the larger Elizabethan sailing ships a fourth mast was called the 'bonaventure mizzen'. For most of the sailing ship age three masts were enough - you coundn't build ships long enough to need more than three masts using the techniques of the time. In English four masted barques the mast at the back (there's nautical for you!) was called the jigger. German four and five masted barques had various different names for their masts, but in German of course!

Brunel's Great Eastern had six masts - they were called Monday, Tuesday ... Saturday!

The crojack yard was a yard on the mizzenmast to spread the mizzen topsail. There wasn't a square mizzen sail, of course.

Might I recommmend 'Seamanship in the age of Sail' by John Harland (Conway ISBN 0 85177 179 3). click 'ere


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Les from Hull
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 05:22 PM

Oh and you don't get more than one truck on a mast - and you don't get that until you get to the very top of the topgallant or royal mast. The bit you are referring to is called the 'cap'. So in the maintop (where the mainmast joins with the main topmast) the mainmast ends in a cap. Of course the mainmast can refer to the bottom bit of the stick in the middle, or to the whole mast, topmast, topgallant mast and royal mast together.

Yes I know I could bore for England on this subject...


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 05:36 PM

I'm with Mick here. I think that the story told in Harris and The Mare is just that. A story. I think William of Orange is a great song and a great message. In time the message may even become acceptable to sing at Irish Fests.

Regards muzzle loaded cannons. I think you will find that it all depends on the direction of the damage. The barrels split along there length. The breaches crack around their circumfrence.

The end result of all this is the guns were damaged in a way that made them unreliable and possibly unaimable.

It is another of Stan's musical short stories that may be poor in history or accurate terminology but still a damn fine story.

Don


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Les from Hull
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 06:42 PM

A gun with a crack in it may be usable, but you would put a smaller charge in it, in case it burst. So the main effect would be reduced range and penetration. I agree that it's still a great song. And not nearly as inacurrate as that other fine song Eric Bogle's 'The band played waltzing matilda'!


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: Rowan
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 01:36 AM

Les from Hull wrote; I agree that it's still a great song. And not nearly as inacurrate as that other fine song Eric Bogle's 'The band played waltzing matilda'!

Before Kevin Fewster became director of the Powerhouse Museum he had been the director of the Maritime Museum, latterly the Sydney one and, before that the Adelaide one. So I suspect he'd be able to set us straight on the correct story. In light of Les' comment, Kevin had done his PhD in Australian military history, and as a lecturer (and having edited the Diaries of CEW Bean) used the text of Eric Bogle's song as part of examination papers, asking the students do document the errors of fact.

How the wheel turns.
Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: Maui: stuns'l booms
From: GUEST,EBarnacle
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 11:32 PM

I wrote a chantey entitled "The Loss of the Pride of Baltimore" after seeing the vessels in her group in the "Missing Man" formation during OpSail. If you want it, PM me and I will be happy to comply.


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