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BS: Five years after 9/11

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Wolfgang 11 Sep 06 - 11:22 AM
Donuel 11 Sep 06 - 11:32 AM
GUEST 11 Sep 06 - 11:39 AM
Wesley S 11 Sep 06 - 11:41 AM
GUEST 11 Sep 06 - 11:45 AM
Big Mick 11 Sep 06 - 11:59 AM
GUEST,Mrr 11 Sep 06 - 12:44 PM
Rapparee 11 Sep 06 - 12:55 PM
leftydee 11 Sep 06 - 01:02 PM
GUEST 11 Sep 06 - 01:22 PM
Donuel 11 Sep 06 - 01:29 PM
*Laura* 11 Sep 06 - 01:44 PM
Barry Finn 11 Sep 06 - 01:50 PM
Wolfgang 11 Sep 06 - 02:07 PM
Bill D 11 Sep 06 - 02:41 PM
SINSULL 11 Sep 06 - 02:56 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 11 Sep 06 - 03:09 PM
GUEST 11 Sep 06 - 03:14 PM
GUEST,2 11 Sep 06 - 03:32 PM
GUEST 11 Sep 06 - 04:50 PM
Sorcha 11 Sep 06 - 05:10 PM
GUEST 11 Sep 06 - 06:26 PM
Jeri 11 Sep 06 - 06:32 PM
Greg F. 11 Sep 06 - 06:39 PM
Big Al Whittle 11 Sep 06 - 06:47 PM
dianavan 11 Sep 06 - 08:59 PM
Ron Davies 11 Sep 06 - 09:51 PM
Sorcha 11 Sep 06 - 09:59 PM
Ron Davies 11 Sep 06 - 10:00 PM
DougR 11 Sep 06 - 10:10 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 11 Sep 06 - 10:21 PM
Raptor 11 Sep 06 - 10:35 PM
John O'L 11 Sep 06 - 11:07 PM
Ron Davies 11 Sep 06 - 11:57 PM
Big Al Whittle 12 Sep 06 - 12:27 AM
DougR 12 Sep 06 - 12:27 AM
John O'L 12 Sep 06 - 12:37 AM
Big Al Whittle 12 Sep 06 - 01:02 AM
GUEST 12 Sep 06 - 04:46 AM
GUEST,paranoid conspiracy nut 12 Sep 06 - 06:23 AM
Big Mick 12 Sep 06 - 06:54 AM
Jeri 12 Sep 06 - 07:05 AM
Divis Sweeney 12 Sep 06 - 07:12 AM
Big Al Whittle 12 Sep 06 - 07:38 AM
Raptor 12 Sep 06 - 08:39 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 12 Sep 06 - 09:21 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 12 Sep 06 - 09:36 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 12 Sep 06 - 09:39 AM
John Hardly 12 Sep 06 - 10:45 AM
GUEST 12 Sep 06 - 01:46 PM
Wolfgang 12 Sep 06 - 04:18 PM
Old Guy 12 Sep 06 - 05:37 PM
TIA 12 Sep 06 - 06:59 PM
GUEST 12 Sep 06 - 07:57 PM
GUEST 12 Sep 06 - 08:01 PM
Divis Sweeney 12 Sep 06 - 08:09 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 12 Sep 06 - 09:29 PM
Old Guy 12 Sep 06 - 11:09 PM
dianavan 12 Sep 06 - 11:54 PM
Ron Davies 13 Sep 06 - 12:05 AM
Old Guy 13 Sep 06 - 12:37 AM
John O'L 13 Sep 06 - 01:00 AM
Old Guy 13 Sep 06 - 01:23 AM
dianavan 13 Sep 06 - 01:58 AM
open mike 13 Sep 06 - 02:27 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Sep 06 - 05:05 AM
GUEST,TIA 13 Sep 06 - 08:53 AM
ard mhacha 13 Sep 06 - 09:02 AM
Raptor 13 Sep 06 - 09:15 AM
Raptor 13 Sep 06 - 09:17 AM
Raptor 13 Sep 06 - 09:19 AM
katlaughing 13 Sep 06 - 10:36 AM
Wesley S 13 Sep 06 - 11:16 AM
Old Guy 13 Sep 06 - 11:30 AM
Wesley S 13 Sep 06 - 12:10 PM
Old Guy 13 Sep 06 - 12:21 PM
GUEST 13 Sep 06 - 12:46 PM
dick greenhaus 13 Sep 06 - 09:20 PM
Wolfgang 14 Sep 06 - 12:43 PM
Wolfgang 14 Sep 06 - 12:58 PM
Old Guy 14 Sep 06 - 01:52 PM
TIA 14 Sep 06 - 02:47 PM
GUEST 15 Sep 06 - 01:35 PM
Old Guy 16 Sep 06 - 12:49 AM
Little Hawk 16 Sep 06 - 01:39 AM
Ron Davies 16 Sep 06 - 01:42 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Sep 06 - 04:38 AM
Ron Davies 16 Sep 06 - 08:09 AM

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Subject: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 11:22 AM

A view from Germany describing how the USA slowly did slide from understandable horror, outrage, and grief into the wrong reaction.

The Endless Day (from: DER SPIEGEL)


The United States squandered the international sympathy and solidarity showered upon it in the immediate aftermath of September 11.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 11:32 AM

Sad

I am watching the rebroadcast of the NBC coverage of 9-11.

There are revealing moments like the claim of a missle hitting the pentagon by witness' and correspondents. Andrea Mitchell saying twice that there are no counter terrorism coordinators or agencies in place since all the counter terrorism managers were at a convention in Monteray California. Video footage of the second tower collapse clearly show explosions below the segments of the pancaking floors that are in keeping with a planned demolition. Intuitive warnings that the second tower would be falling momentarily. The announcment after the Pentagon strike that another plane was en route to Washington to destroy another target.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 11:39 AM

I am thinking of rescue personnel who went in and didn't come out; of mothers and fathers, sons and daughters who are only memories these five years later. And I am thinking that the people who arranged their murders are still free and walking around, some in the mid-East and others in Washington. Five years ago was a "Day of Infamy" that puts Pearl Harbor to shame as an example of deceit and treachery.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 11:41 AM

"clearly show explosions"

Sorry - the only reason the you "clearly see explosions" is because you want to see them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 11:45 AM

Equally, Wesley S:

Sorry - the only reason the [sic] you don't "clearly see explosions" is because you don't want to see them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 11:59 AM

Of all the reasons for this President to be relegated to the trash heap of history, his squandering of a real opportunity to build a consensus in the community of nations to end the senseless slaughter is the most egregious. This man had the world willing to build a real network to end this, and he chooses a path that has made the world more dangerous than ever. For this he will be remembered, in the fullness of time, as a blundering fool.

God be good to those that lost, and conintue to lose, their lives as a result of this action and the blunders since then.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 12:44 PM

All gave some - Some gave all. Seen on a tattoo on a NY firefighter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 12:55 PM

And some are still giving all.

I agree with Big Mick -- and no, the US is in no way safer. And don't bother me with the argument that the US hasn't experienced any more attacks -- terrorists, like other criminals, choose when they will attack.

What it should have taught the US is that there is not, and never has been, complete safety and security.

In the meantime, I mourn the dead of all nations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: leftydee
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 01:02 PM

Well said, Mick and Rapaire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 01:22 PM

http://mikesheedy.com/Play01b.htm

A commentary on September 11. From a screenplay.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 01:29 PM

Revisting the video footage today brought more tears than when I first saw the carnage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: *Laura*
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 01:44 PM

Documentary the other day said that people came down from the second tower to be evacuated then were told it was secure and told to go back up....
Never heard that before.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 01:50 PM

What it didn't teach us because some refuse to learn for their failures is that to help & love one another (the Christians only speak this but,,,) not only here but everywhere, espicially those that are different from us & whom we don't understand. We lost our respect home & abroad. The best thing we could've done after 9/11 when the world was waiting for us, IN OUR HAND, was not to attack but to have gone out to other nations and to have asked them where did we all go so wrong & why did this this all come to such a ugly place. That would've been the time to rebuild a nation & a world. We were not the only nation to have been attacked. Like doctors treating only the symptoms & not the cause, we will never be cured of terror until the causes are looked at, understood & treated.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 02:07 PM

I relive my feelings from that day when I (as always on 9/11 the last five years) reread Mudcat's first thread about the attack. I couldn't watch TV for two or three hours so reading that thread silently (and googling a news-site) was how I experienced it.

When I came home later (with my then 4 years old daughter) I switched on the TV and thought for a long moment whether I would let her watch or not. I still don't know whether I made the right decision but I let her watch (the impact of the second plane was replayed then every 5 minutes or so). She was very silent for some time and then asked "were there still people in tha planes?". When I had to say "yes" I cried for the first time. And that's up til now the only time she has seen me cry.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 02:41 PM

For a people who have been largely free from the shock of war and attacks on our own land (even Pearl Harbor was 'over there' to most of us), 9/11 was, and will always be, a major awakening to what it can be like.

   We have been frustrated because, except for bombing some of those who harbored terrorists in Afghanistan, it was hard to find anyone to 'punish' for the offense....Sadly, in our, excuse me, Bush's zeal to 'get' someone and show 'em what America stands for, we have, as Wolfgang notes, descended to inventing reasons to attack 'convenient' targets that had some vague sympathy with Al Qaeda.

There are indeed, evil, confused and hate filled people in the world who wish to cause US (capitals intended) harm, but the truth is, there are more of them NOW than there were 5 years ago because of the foolish policies we have followed and the animosities we have created under the guise of 'protecting ourselves'.

I sincerely hope, that as we remember those who died in those vicious attacks and honor those heroes who tried to save the victims, that we reassess our goals and the methods we follow to achieve them. We NEED help from the world at large and some trust that we will be civil and fair as we try to adjust to this situation.

Our emotions were wrenched pretty hard 5 years ago, but we need our minds to guide our recovery.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 02:56 PM

And true to form, the same government that turned its back on Viet Nam vets and veteran's of the Gulf "War", who claimed physical ailments as a result of their work, is now penny pinching its way through the claims of those brave heroes who went daily to the disaster site and searched for the dead or helped clean up the mess.

But there are of course unlimited funds for fighting baby bush's daddy's war a second time.

And all those nations that hate us...well they just envy us our freedom. Yeah, right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 03:09 PM

What really bothers me is that many of us talk a good game, but as witnessed right here on Mudcat we have very little tolerance or understanding of the views and cultural difference of others.   The threads about science & religion as well as the kosher chicken in Monsey bears that out. If we can't work with each other to understand different views and cultures, why would we expect our governments to do any better? Perhaps governments actually do represent their citizens after all.

We can spend our lives trying to do something positive or we can continue to spread the same negative ideals.

If anything, we are all further apart on Sept 11, 2006 then we were on Sept 10, 2001.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 03:14 PM

I wonder would that be the 9-11 when a military coup deposed a democratically elected government, murdered its president and put a dictator into power who went on to tortured and massacre thousands of opponents with the help of the CIA and the full blessings of the USA - or was that Chile?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST,2
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 03:32 PM

Chile.   There are enough reliable witnesses to show that Allende committed suicide in the face of the coup. While the dictator who seized power was certainly brutal and should never have seized power, you can't paint Allende to be a saint. He was democratically elected but he won by a plurality and not by a majority of votes and cause him to utter the famous line "Santiago will be painted red with blood if I am not ratified as President." He failed to uphold the consititution of Chile while being backed by the KGB.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 04:50 PM

Sad day for the families who lost loved ones. Almost 3,000 dead is hard to imagine. Maybe we can also remember the 17,000 killed in the Middle East by the Americans since that sad day in America five years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 05:10 PM

I'm sick of it. Get over it already. Any bets on whether they make it a Nat'l Holdiay?????


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 06:26 PM

America has consistently used and endorsed terrorism throughout the latter half of the twentieth and into the twenty first century.
They can hardly complain when it backfires on them.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 06:32 PM

We should be more like Great Britain?


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 06:39 PM

Sorcha: Hear, Hear! Its long past time people stopped wallowing in this.

ENOUGH ALREADY!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 06:47 PM

I think you're kidding yourself if you think a great opportunity was lost on forming a consensus on terrorism.

In England, we know that whatever the depths a terrorist sinks to - there will be some who side with him. the bully in the playground often has his defenders - usually amongst the teachers more than the kids. there must be some psychological formula somewhere that explains why complete assholes always have their defenders. Shit in the water supply and somewhere someone will be applauding.

If you don't feel safe - its probably because you're not safe. But lets hope they have tightened up security and improved their intelligence gathering systems to make us all safer.

I don't like George Bush. To me his stance on capital punishment is inhumane. However there were no easy options open to him after 9/11. Lets hope he was bright enough to realise that and started spending money in an effective way to combat this problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 08:59 PM

"However there were no easy options open to him after 9/11. Lets hope he was bright enough to realise that and started spending money in an effective way to combat this problem."

huh???


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 09:51 PM

As Dianavan says: Bush? Bright enough? Huh?

Tilt--tilt--tilt


Does not compute.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 09:59 PM

Who, Him???? laff laff laff.....ROFLMAO!


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 10:00 PM

Propaganda the Bush regime has mastered.

Nothing else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: DougR
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 10:10 PM

Mick: I assume that the reason you believe the Bush Administration's policy of taking the fight to the terrorists is foolhardy is because you believe that the Terrorists can be reasoned with. Perhaps by a consortion of countries. That has been the US foreign policy since the early 1990', and it is a failed policy.

It is not necessary that the world "love" the United States. Other than Great Britain, who has been a valuable friend, there are few other countries that have the cojones to face the terrorists and deal with them in the only way they understand... Military force.

I'm certain when the next world disaster happens, the "world" will look to the US for help just as they always do, and we will help, whatever disaster it might be. They still, however, will not love the us. They will take the help, of course, but the will not love us.
DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 10:21 PM

"It is not necessary that the world "love" the United States. Other than Great Britain, who has been a valuable friend, there are few other countries that have the cojones to face the terrorists and deal with them in the only way they understand... Military force."

Oh Doug, you not only swallowed the Kool-aid but you went back for seconds.

What terrorists have we faced? We capture a guy who did not have a single weapon of mass destruction, a guy who tried to set his shoe on fire, and a few hundred people at Gitmo that we really know very little about.   If we are the cops of the world, we merely grabbed a few guys stealing penny candy and we act like we have captured public enemy #1. It is has been a deception game of smoke and mirrors and spin doctors.

It doesn't take cojones to beat up on the defenseless. We killed over 30,000 Iraqis but yet we can't find a tall guy in a turban hooked up to a dialysis unit. Satellites can read your watch dial and we can't find the people who did this. Think this through and stop defending these bastards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Raptor
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 10:35 PM

With the Bush policies of "You agree with me or you are the terrorists" Do you wonder where the love is?

I don't remember anyone asking for Bush's help Doug.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: John O'L
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 11:07 PM

I've just been hearing on the radio Bush talking about leading the world into a new age of freedom and peace or some such crap, and I find myself thinking "Who is this guy? President of the United States of America. Is he telling me anything I haven't already heard? Is he saying anything I feel I can believe? Is he saying anything of interest at all?"

It will take a long time for the office of President to recover from his occupation, if it ever does.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 11:57 PM

I have to admit I was a bit unfair. The Bush team does have other skills.

They're very good at breaking, destroying, and killing--though not necessarily what they were actually aiming to break, destroy or kill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 12:27 AM

Try telling the soldiers serving out there, how defenceless these people are.

I don't really think its a question of cojones either though.

basically the French paid a terrible price in world war one and it didn't buy them very much. and Germany has probably had enough of militarism to last another millenium.

And I think they look at England and America still immersed in wargames - and they find the whole mindset repellent.

In the end its all down to trust. I don't trust Bush, but I did trust Blair. I know he springs from a tradition and a political party that I associate with integrity and decent behaviour. If he has waged war, I assume he has done it because he saw no other option.

It is worth adding that most of my countrymen see me as a naive fool in holding these beliefs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: DougR
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 12:27 AM

Why don't you folks invite Bin Laden in for tea? I'm sure you would have a lot in common and no doubt you could convince him to turn his efforts toward more peaceful pursuits ...say tiddle winks?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: John O'L
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 12:37 AM

Bin Laden has nothing to do with the war in Iraq. Or more correctly, the war in Iraq has nothing to do with Bin Laden


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 01:02 AM

Well as long as Osama has given you his word as a decent chap that he and his friends are not bowling us googlies in Iraq.

Well that's darn well good enough for me.

Gosh! I wonder which blighter we are fighting!


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 04:46 AM

The illegal war, imprisonment without trial, torure and humiliation of (untried) prisoners, carpet bombing of civilians (including chemical weapons again) and the support of genocide by the Israelis is handing the victory to Bin Laden and his cohorts.
The Brits have merely become Bush's trained poodles.
Bush is not fighting terrorism - he is just selecting which terrorists he wishes to call his friends.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST,paranoid conspiracy nut
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 06:23 AM

OK what happened to the posts here a couple of days ago claiming use of thermite type explosives to produce a controlled demolition of the towers?
It seems pretty unlikely that both towers would collapse in such a symmetrical fashion (even allowing for the devastating impact)
The theory that the floor trusses softened in the heat and then fell in a chain reaction does not explain why the massively strong steel core of the building should not have remained at least partially standing.
Plenty more "conspiracy nut" material at http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 06:54 AM

Paranoid Conspiracy nut, I checked and no posts have been deleted from this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 07:05 AM

The thermite posts were in a thread about poultry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 07:12 AM

Gentlemen please, we all have a view on this issue and there is probably more going on behind the scenes and has been than we will ever know about. I am not throwing in my pennys worth on the politics of it all, as I tend to say out of these debates, I get enough to do with Irish issues !

Let's please think about the total loss of life on both sides for a moment. Speaking from my own experience, it's those on the ground like ourselves that end up supporting coffins on our shoulders.

Again speaking from experience, the politicans, military and those leaders given to a cause rarely get to understand what it's like to
loose a loved one.

So come on, let's keep friendship the order of the day here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 07:38 AM

To be honest DS - I don't have a view.

And one of the many lessons from the really bad years of the situation in Northern Ireland, as you say is that, WE don't know much. Politicians simply can't be trusted to speak truthfully,or even second guessed at to what state their negotiations are at. For all we know Osama, might be at this moment sitting with his feet up in the White House discussing with George what load of shite they will dish up to the plebs this week.

However having said that, pretending there was some simple solution to the complex set of circumstances surrounding 9/11. well that is one I just won't buy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Raptor
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 08:39 AM

I agree with Davis 100%

Good for you!

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 09:21 AM

"Why don't you folks invite Bin Laden in for tea? I'm sure you would have a lot in common and no doubt you could convince him to turn his efforts toward more peaceful pursuits ...say tiddle winks?"

Too late, it appears that our government already did that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 09:36 AM

I think Keith Olberman summed it all up - "We Have Not Forgotten, Mr. President."


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 09:39 AM

Here is another link to the MSNBC site - MSNBC - Olbermann


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: John Hardly
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 10:45 AM

Those who dislike the US because of her reaction to 9/11, disliked the US before 9/11. They were just quieted for a few months until the dust from the towers settled a bit. Then, once they figured out a new way to express their dislike for the US again, they started back where they began.

It'll forever be thus. At least until the US collapses. It is human nature to love an underdog. It is human nature to dislike the successful if "they" are not "us".


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 01:46 PM

Please don't tell us why we don't like the US - try convincing us by explaining your government's global policies - that should do the trick
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 04:18 PM

You are either with us or with the terrorists (a quote from memory, so it may have been said in a slightly different way).

Not only in this thread I see too many good people following this wrong logic. On the one hand the people from the right who grasp that there is a real war (not in the old sense) with Islamists since long but don't understand that sometimes the use of military force is not the best idea. On the other hand the people from the left who often downplay the danger to our societies but have grasped that sometimes military action is not the best way of fighting (that some of them think, using force is never the right way of fighting is another issue).

When I hear Bush talking I follow him in his description of the situation. America and not only America is under attack and will be for a long time. The political aims of Islamists I consider extremely dangerously and something worth fighting against. But when I see the way Bush takes (with the exception of the initial attack on the Taleban regime) I consider it politically wrong (morally wrong too).

So, of course I am not on the terrorists side, they will never reason or compromise unless dead or in prison, but the aim of a good policy should be to make recruiting more difficult for them. Would be terrorists must be the aim of the strategy and I do not see that the US government does know how to decrease the number of new terrorist recruits. So, in nearly all of his decisions in thsi 'war' I'm not on Bush's side as well.

Interview of DER SPIEGEL with ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI

SPIEGEL: Fear-mongering is therefore not a valid response?

Brzezinski: We have to formulate a policy for this region which helps us to mobilize our potential friends. Only if we cooperate with them can we contain and eventually eliminate this phenomenon.


Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Old Guy
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 05:37 PM

Germans have no moral footing to criticize anybody. This is what the bastards caused:

POSTWAR REFUGEE CRISIS AND THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL
                 
During World War II, the Nazis deported between seven and nine million Europeans, mostly to Germany. Within months of Germany's surrender in May 1945, the Allies repatriated to their home countries more than six million displaced persons (DPs; wartime refugees). Between 1.5 million and two million DPs refused repatriation.

Most Jewish survivors, who had survived concentration camps or had been in hiding, were unable or unwilling to return to eastern Europe because of postwar antisemitism and the destruction of their communities during the Holocaust. Many of those who did return feared for their lives. In Poland, for example, locals initiated several violent pogroms. The worst was the one in Kielce in 1946 in which 42 Jews, all survivors of the Holocaust, were killed. These pogroms led to a significant second movement of Jewish refugees from Poland to the west.

Many Holocaust survivors moved westward to territories liberated by the western Allies. They were housed in displaced persons camps and urban displaced persons centers. The Allies established such camps in Allied-occupied Germany, Austria, and Italy for refugees waiting to leave Europe. Most of the Jewish displaced persons were in the British occupation zone in northern Germany and in the American occupation zone in the south. The British established a large displaced persons camp adjacent to the former concentration camp of Bergen-Belsen in Germany. Several large camps holding 4,000 to 6,000 displaced persons each--Feldafing, Landsberg, and Foehrenwald--were located in the American zone.

At its peak in 1947, the Jewish displaced person population reached approximately 250,000. While the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration (UNRRA) administered all of the displaced persons camps and centers, Jewish displaced persons achieved a large measure of internal autonomy.

A variety of Jewish agencies were active in the displaced persons camps. The American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee provided refugees with food and clothing, and the Organization for Rehabilitation through Training (ORT) offered vocational training. Jewish displaced persons also formed self-governing organizations, and many worked toward the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. There were central committees of Jewish displaced persons in the American and British zones which, as their primary goals, pressed for greater immigration opportunities and the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine.         

In the United States, immigration restrictions strictly limited the number of refugees permitted to enter the country. The British, who had received a mandate from the League of Nations to administer Palestine, severely restricted Jewish immigration there largely because of Arab objections. Many countries closed their borders to immigration. Despite these obstacles, many Jewish displaced persons attempted to leave Europe as soon as possible.

The Jewish Brigade Group, formed as a unit within the British army in late 1944, worked with former partisans to help organize the Brihah (literally "escape"), the exodus of 250,000 Jewish refugees across closed borders from inside Europe to the coast in an attempt to sail for Palestine. The Mosad le-Aliyah Bet, an agency established by the Jewish leadership in Palestine, organized "illegal" immigration (Aliyah Bet) by ship. However, the British intercepted most of the ships.

In 1947, for example, the British stopped the "Exodus 1947" at the port of Haifa. The ship had 4,500 Holocaust survivors on board, who were returned to Germany on British vessels. In most cases, the British detained the refugees--over 50,000--in detention camps on the island of Cyprus in the eastern Mediterranean Sea. The British use of detention camps as a deterrent failed, and the flood of immigrants attempting entry into Palestine continued.

The internment of Jewish refugees--many of them Holocaust survivors--turned world opinion against British policy in Palestine. The report of the Anglo-American Commission of Inquiry in January 1946 led U.S. president Harry Truman to pressure Britain into admitting 100,000 Jewish refugees into Palestine.

As the crisis escalated, the British government decided to submit the problem of Palestine to the United Nations (UN). In a special session, the UN General Assembly voted on November 29, 1947, to partition Palestine into two new states, one Jewish and the other Arab, a recommendation that Jewish leaders accepted and the Arabs rejected.

After the British began the withdrawal of their military forces from Palestine in early April 1948, Zionist leaders moved to establish a modern Jewish state. On May 14, 1948, David Ben-Gurion, the chairman of the Jewish Agency for Palestine, announced the formation of the state of Israel, declaring, "The Nazi Holocaust, which engulfed millions of Jews in Europe, proved anew the urgency of the reestablishment of the Jewish State, which would solve the problem of Jewish homelessness by opening the gates to all Jews and lifting the Jewish people to equality in the family of nations."

Holocaust survivors from displaced persons camps in Europe and from detention camps on Cyprus were welcomed into the Jewish homeland. Many of them fought in Israel's War of Independence in 1948 and 1949. In 1953, Yad Vashem (The Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority), the national institution for Holocaust commemoration, was established.


http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005459


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: TIA
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 06:59 PM

Jerk. I seriously doubt Wolfgang was involved.

But let's follow your logic. You have no moral footing because of what Americans did to the indigenous people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 07:57 PM

Thermite
Theories that Aluminothermic Reactions Were Used to Destroy the Twin Towers
Thermite theories hold that thermite or similar reactions was used exclusively or in combinatition with other methods to destroy the Twin Towers.

Aluminothermic reactions are exothermic chemical reactions in which aluminum is oxidized by reducing agent at high temperatures. The most common example of such a reaction is thermite, in which powdered aluminum reacts with an oxide of another metal, such as iron oxide. Because aluminum has a greater affinity for oxygen than iron, oxygen is transferred from the iron oxide to the aluminum releasing a great deal of energy and leaving molten iron and aluminum oxide.

from here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 08:01 PM

By Michael Powell

Updated: 8:11 a.m. MT Sept 8, 2006
NEW YORK - He felt no shiver of doubt in those first terrible hours.

He watched the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and assumed al-Qaeda had wreaked terrible vengeance. He listened to anchors and military experts and assumed the facts of Sept. 11, 2001, were as stated on the screen.

It was a year before David Ray Griffin, an eminent liberal theologian and philosopher, began his stroll down the path of disbelief. He wondered why Bush listened to a child's story while the nation was attacked and how Osama bin Laden, America's Public Enemy No. 1, escaped in the mountains of Tora Bora.

from here.





Nothin' to be afraid of--jus' me an' my monkey . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 08:09 PM

Please lads, let's all take a few hours off and cool the heads. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 09:29 PM

Over the years, I have found Wolfgang's postings here at Mudcat to be well informed, thoughtful, and evenhanded. He makes a valiant effort to overcome the language barrier between us anglos and himself, and he has enriched my perspective on countless occasions with his 'out of the box' (of the american media) points of view. I believe his good intentions are clearly reflected by his creation of this thread, and his steady cultivation of it.

Old Guy, you could learn a lot from his example. Over the past few months, I have found your postings to be disruptive, contentious, and purposely uncouth. It is becoming increasingly obvious and improper to Americans of all persuasions... that bullies do not a proper foriegn policy make...

It's not much of a stretch to say ...'bullies do not a proper domestic policy make...' and the content of your last post proves this a darn sight better than your actions.

Five years after 9/11... and meanness still takes precedence... at home, and abroad.

Isn't it obvious by now?

Vengence, Anger, Aggression and Violence can only bring forth the ever less faint rumblings of those four hoursemen... Galloping stridently... Ever louder... Always nearer... More certain and sure of their task with every caustic quip, every tit for tat ...

Love will send them packing.
ttr


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Old Guy
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 11:09 PM

Tia:

What moral footing do you have?


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 11:54 PM

Save your breath, Tia.

He thinks the Republicans are great because they came up with the 'Homesteaders Act'. Only an ethnocentric asshole would applaud a measure that deprived Aboriginal people of their homes and doomed them to cultural genocide.

...but you know how it goes.

Its all morally good if it makes the White man fatter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 12:05 AM

But at least we can see how a Bush voter thinks (thinks?). It's frightening to imagine how many like-minded yahoos it must have taken to elect Bush--twice!

But of course such individuals are particularly susceptible to propaganda--and that's unquestionably the Bush regime's strong suit. I suppose Bush voters especially like it since it relieves them of the burden to think--which was always an unreasonable request for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Old Guy
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 12:37 AM

Don't answer Tia, Dianavan will tell you what to do and not to do. Evidently she is biased against white men.

Where does Dianavan live? Did it belong to aboriginal people at one time?

Why doesn't RD just flat out tell people how to vote, His way of course.

Keep up the insults, they are demonstrative.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: John O'L
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 01:00 AM

Good post Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Old Guy
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 01:23 AM

For the Lady Dianavan:

Beck Lyrics

Asshole Lyrics

Your brains went black when she took back her love
And put it out into the sun
The birds did fly when the heavens all went dry
And the cigarettes were smoking by themselves

She'll do anything
She'll do anything
She'll do anything to make you feel like an asshole

Call her name, she looks the same as you
Question marks stretched across her skin
She dangles carrots, makes you feel embarrassed
To be the fool you know you are

She'll do anything
She'll do anything
She'll do anything to make you feel like an asshole


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 01:58 AM

Close, but no cigar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: open mike
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 02:27 AM

i remember where i was that day..
we were fightng a fire that had burned nearly 10,000
acres if i remember correctly.
we were defending a fire line that was 8 bull dozer blades
wide. and air support was an integral part of
our defense.
suddenly all planes (and helicopters) were ordered to
ground or threatened to be shot down and assumed to be
terrorists...
we (and there was a large fire in oregon at the time too..'
maybe the Biscuit fire) had to get special permission to
fly the retardant planes and the medi-vac 'copters..
as the steep terraine and inaccessible areas caused
fire fitghter injuries...
we compensated by getting a portable water tank and setting up
a transfer as the water pressure at the nozzel was blowing
out the lines from the weight of the water in them..there was
almost a mile of hose..


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 05:05 AM

I used to have a moral footing, but I then I tried immoral footing.

Make sure you toenails are trimmed first - your partner will thank you for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 08:53 AM

OG asks:

"What moral footing do you have?"

Never claimed any, and was never enough of a dickweed to impugn someone else's.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: ard mhacha
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 09:02 AM

Has anyone read Fiasco by Thomas Ricks?, Rick`s book exposes the blundering fools in the US government on their headlong rush to disaster in the middle east, if you haven`t get it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Raptor
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 09:15 AM

Wasn't asshole written by Tom Petty? Its on the soundtrack "She's the one".

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Raptor
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 09:17 AM

I googled "asshole" and Guess who's picture comes up?...


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Raptor
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 09:19 AM

I never thought I'd ever say "I googled asshole"

It just sounds wrong?


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 10:36 AM

Well said, Wolfgang and Thomas.

Divis, thanks for trying.

I was here, on the Mudcat, that day, along with Spaw and many others. I ahd the tv on and those of us who could, posted the news as quickly as we heard it, for those who were at work with no media access and were on the Mudcat wanting to know what was happening.

I remember putting a wide band of black ribbon around the huge old cottonwood tree in our front yard; crying throughout the whole day; shaking my head in disbelief; listening and lsitening to folks who were there; reading and reading first-hand as-it-happened accounts.

Most of all I remember how the people of the world offered support, etc. then, later on, the awful way in which it all eroded until now we have come to be hated more than before; threatened more than before; and, no one trusting our government; and, first responders who, five years later, are dying of respiratory problems which could have been prevented if officials had been truthful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 11:16 AM

I haven't seen it yet but I saw that the Sundance Channel is running a documentary about those respitory problems called "Dust to Dust". You might want to check it out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Old Guy
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 11:30 AM

"You have no moral footing" is this impugning?

An I correct in sating anybody living in America or Canada that is not native or aboriginal, is living on someone elses land?


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 12:10 PM

Correct Old Guy. And since my Great-Grandmother was a Cree indian I'd like to ask you to vacate the premisis and sign the deed over to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Old Guy
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 12:21 PM

Somehere in my ancestry so I am told, is Pocahontas so I am immune.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 12:46 PM

None of us own the land


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 09:20 PM

Clearly, the invasion of Iraq was a monumental blunder (I don't hold with those who feel that it occurred because our Pres'dent couldn't spell "Iran".) Except for Cheney, nobody in power seems to believe that Sadam had anything at all to do with either Al Quaeda or 9-11.

   A more logical move would have been to invade tha state that we know harbored and trained the 9-11 terrorists. Florida!


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 12:43 PM

Let him whose forefathers were without sin cast the first stone.

Wolfgang (born in 1948)


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 12:58 PM

But you are marginally right in one respect, Old Guy. The crimes of the generation of our fathers and grandfathers do haunt me all my life for if I picture myself having been born 50 years earlier I honestly don't know what I would have done. Would I have said No loudly, would I have looked the other way, or would I have been a murderers' helper?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Old Guy
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 01:52 PM

I think the current generation may be OK and I don't blame what the Nazis did on them any more than I can blame slavery on myself.

But I do think a lot of the problems in the middle east are the result of the actions of Germany back in the 40's

If the movie Exodus is to be believed, The Germans were stirring the shit between the Arabs and the Jews back then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: TIA
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 02:47 PM

I see a huge backpedal in the "current generation" disclaimer OG. Immediately after Wolfgang's post, you said "Germans have no moral footing to criticize anybody." Any sane person would read this as a particularly nasty way of telling Wolfgang to "shut up".

He, on the other hand is being very gracious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 01:35 PM

The current "old generation" in America is called "The Greatest Generation." The media has placated all the old veterans by showering them with praise and patting them on their heads until they went bald. But would "the greatest generation" allow president Harry Truman to bring the Nazi death camp doctors to the U.S. so they could continue their work? Operation Paperclip. And The Greatest Generation is sitting on its socialized ass while America is being destroyed by a gangster crime family with direct ties to the Third Reich. So don't let these old farts bother you, Wolfgang. America's WW2 generation will be remembered as the generation that brought America down through ignorance, apathy, and cowardice.

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/read.php?ID=23782

The link above shows what America's Greatest Generation is willing to abide so they can hold on to the few moments of life they have left. (Another free 911 video online folks...link at the bottom of the page.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Old Guy
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 12:49 AM

I don't blame the current Generation of Germans for anything thier ancestors did but I think thay should be careful about making charges about other countries. It is a stigma not a guilt.

I heard that in Germany, before the world cup soccer match there, Brits were carrying models of fighter planes around and pushing them in the faces of Germans while making airpane and gunfire noises.

Totaly uncalled for and rude.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 01:39 AM

Wolfgang, the vast majority of ordinary people in any country serve the government willingly and obey its orders willingly when their country is at war, and they also honestly believe their country is morally in the right while they're doing it. Germans are no different from anyone else in that respect. It was with the clarity of hindsight that the Nazi cause was seen for the great evil it was. You have no reason to feel guilt by association because of something that German fathers and grandfathers did in the Nazi era.

American fathers and grandfathers, had they been born there, would have acted just the same, I assure you.

So would any other nationality too.

And if they had won the war...well, they wouldn't get to feel guilty at all. No one would tell them of the atrocities...only the glorious sacrifices and acts of courage on the way to victory. But they lost it and that's a very different story.

Can you imagine how succeeding generations of Russians would have been made to feel about themselves if Germany had won the war in Russia and gotten to write the history books afterward? The Nazis would have been painted as heroes and saviours, the Stalinist Communists as devilish monsters. Every Russian would be made to feel guilty by association.

Same technique, different target.

As for the USA, they were in no real danger whatsoever of such a debacle in WWII. They might, with incompetent enough leadership, have failed to decisively win that war, but there was no way they could totally lose it the way the Germans and Japanese did. The continental USA was way too big and way too hard to invade across those huge oceans, and the Germans and Japanese could not have managed it. Anyway, the Americans could build far more ships and aircraft than the Germans and Japanese could, and that in fact is basically what won them the war. They did not win it because they are "good guys" and good guys win wars, they won it because they had far bigger industrial power at their disposal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 01:42 AM

Old--

As usual, you're not reading very carefully. Wolfgang is actually not one who makes "charges"--in fact he's amazingly even-handed.

Even if he weren't, it's totally off-base to say that anybody should be "careful" because of what ancestors did.

Every "charge" has to be evaluated on its own merits--irrespective of the person making it.

And based on your postings, I'd say it's not at all clear how you would have behaved in the Third Reich, had you been a German. It's not a reasonable assumption that your hands would be clean. We'll never know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 04:38 AM

"I heard that in Germany, before the world cup soccer match there, Brits were carrying models of fighter planes around and pushing them in the faces of Germans while making airpane and gunfire noises.

Totaly uncalled for and rude."

Americans don't need to do that on an individual basis, Hollywood does it for them. Ever seen a nice German soldier, or even one with any redeeming qualities in Hoolywood production? Let's face it, all of us Europeans nowadays get to play is Hannibal lecter types.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 08:09 AM

And it's been so for a long time. As I recall, in Casablanca, the part of Major Strasser, the main Nazi villain, was played by a recently arrived Jewish actor--he had to take the parts he could get.


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