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BS: Five years after 9/11

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Wolfgang 11 Sep 06 - 11:22 AM
Donuel 11 Sep 06 - 11:32 AM
GUEST 11 Sep 06 - 11:39 AM
Wesley S 11 Sep 06 - 11:41 AM
GUEST 11 Sep 06 - 11:45 AM
Big Mick 11 Sep 06 - 11:59 AM
GUEST,Mrr 11 Sep 06 - 12:44 PM
Rapparee 11 Sep 06 - 12:55 PM
leftydee 11 Sep 06 - 01:02 PM
GUEST 11 Sep 06 - 01:22 PM
Donuel 11 Sep 06 - 01:29 PM
*Laura* 11 Sep 06 - 01:44 PM
Barry Finn 11 Sep 06 - 01:50 PM
Wolfgang 11 Sep 06 - 02:07 PM
Bill D 11 Sep 06 - 02:41 PM
SINSULL 11 Sep 06 - 02:56 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 11 Sep 06 - 03:09 PM
GUEST 11 Sep 06 - 03:14 PM
GUEST,2 11 Sep 06 - 03:32 PM
GUEST 11 Sep 06 - 04:50 PM
Sorcha 11 Sep 06 - 05:10 PM
GUEST 11 Sep 06 - 06:26 PM
Jeri 11 Sep 06 - 06:32 PM
Greg F. 11 Sep 06 - 06:39 PM
Big Al Whittle 11 Sep 06 - 06:47 PM
dianavan 11 Sep 06 - 08:59 PM
Ron Davies 11 Sep 06 - 09:51 PM
Sorcha 11 Sep 06 - 09:59 PM
Ron Davies 11 Sep 06 - 10:00 PM
DougR 11 Sep 06 - 10:10 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 11 Sep 06 - 10:21 PM
Raptor 11 Sep 06 - 10:35 PM
John O'L 11 Sep 06 - 11:07 PM
Ron Davies 11 Sep 06 - 11:57 PM
Big Al Whittle 12 Sep 06 - 12:27 AM
DougR 12 Sep 06 - 12:27 AM
John O'L 12 Sep 06 - 12:37 AM
Big Al Whittle 12 Sep 06 - 01:02 AM
GUEST 12 Sep 06 - 04:46 AM
GUEST,paranoid conspiracy nut 12 Sep 06 - 06:23 AM
Big Mick 12 Sep 06 - 06:54 AM
Jeri 12 Sep 06 - 07:05 AM
Divis Sweeney 12 Sep 06 - 07:12 AM
Big Al Whittle 12 Sep 06 - 07:38 AM
Raptor 12 Sep 06 - 08:39 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 12 Sep 06 - 09:21 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 12 Sep 06 - 09:36 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 12 Sep 06 - 09:39 AM
John Hardly 12 Sep 06 - 10:45 AM
GUEST 12 Sep 06 - 01:46 PM

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Subject: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 11:22 AM

A view from Germany describing how the USA slowly did slide from understandable horror, outrage, and grief into the wrong reaction.

The Endless Day (from: DER SPIEGEL)


The United States squandered the international sympathy and solidarity showered upon it in the immediate aftermath of September 11.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 11:32 AM

Sad

I am watching the rebroadcast of the NBC coverage of 9-11.

There are revealing moments like the claim of a missle hitting the pentagon by witness' and correspondents. Andrea Mitchell saying twice that there are no counter terrorism coordinators or agencies in place since all the counter terrorism managers were at a convention in Monteray California. Video footage of the second tower collapse clearly show explosions below the segments of the pancaking floors that are in keeping with a planned demolition. Intuitive warnings that the second tower would be falling momentarily. The announcment after the Pentagon strike that another plane was en route to Washington to destroy another target.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 11:39 AM

I am thinking of rescue personnel who went in and didn't come out; of mothers and fathers, sons and daughters who are only memories these five years later. And I am thinking that the people who arranged their murders are still free and walking around, some in the mid-East and others in Washington. Five years ago was a "Day of Infamy" that puts Pearl Harbor to shame as an example of deceit and treachery.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 11:41 AM

"clearly show explosions"

Sorry - the only reason the you "clearly see explosions" is because you want to see them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 11:45 AM

Equally, Wesley S:

Sorry - the only reason the [sic] you don't "clearly see explosions" is because you don't want to see them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 11:59 AM

Of all the reasons for this President to be relegated to the trash heap of history, his squandering of a real opportunity to build a consensus in the community of nations to end the senseless slaughter is the most egregious. This man had the world willing to build a real network to end this, and he chooses a path that has made the world more dangerous than ever. For this he will be remembered, in the fullness of time, as a blundering fool.

God be good to those that lost, and conintue to lose, their lives as a result of this action and the blunders since then.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 12:44 PM

All gave some - Some gave all. Seen on a tattoo on a NY firefighter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 12:55 PM

And some are still giving all.

I agree with Big Mick -- and no, the US is in no way safer. And don't bother me with the argument that the US hasn't experienced any more attacks -- terrorists, like other criminals, choose when they will attack.

What it should have taught the US is that there is not, and never has been, complete safety and security.

In the meantime, I mourn the dead of all nations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: leftydee
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 01:02 PM

Well said, Mick and Rapaire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 01:22 PM

http://mikesheedy.com/Play01b.htm

A commentary on September 11. From a screenplay.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 01:29 PM

Revisting the video footage today brought more tears than when I first saw the carnage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: *Laura*
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 01:44 PM

Documentary the other day said that people came down from the second tower to be evacuated then were told it was secure and told to go back up....
Never heard that before.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 01:50 PM

What it didn't teach us because some refuse to learn for their failures is that to help & love one another (the Christians only speak this but,,,) not only here but everywhere, espicially those that are different from us & whom we don't understand. We lost our respect home & abroad. The best thing we could've done after 9/11 when the world was waiting for us, IN OUR HAND, was not to attack but to have gone out to other nations and to have asked them where did we all go so wrong & why did this this all come to such a ugly place. That would've been the time to rebuild a nation & a world. We were not the only nation to have been attacked. Like doctors treating only the symptoms & not the cause, we will never be cured of terror until the causes are looked at, understood & treated.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 02:07 PM

I relive my feelings from that day when I (as always on 9/11 the last five years) reread Mudcat's first thread about the attack. I couldn't watch TV for two or three hours so reading that thread silently (and googling a news-site) was how I experienced it.

When I came home later (with my then 4 years old daughter) I switched on the TV and thought for a long moment whether I would let her watch or not. I still don't know whether I made the right decision but I let her watch (the impact of the second plane was replayed then every 5 minutes or so). She was very silent for some time and then asked "were there still people in tha planes?". When I had to say "yes" I cried for the first time. And that's up til now the only time she has seen me cry.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 02:41 PM

For a people who have been largely free from the shock of war and attacks on our own land (even Pearl Harbor was 'over there' to most of us), 9/11 was, and will always be, a major awakening to what it can be like.

   We have been frustrated because, except for bombing some of those who harbored terrorists in Afghanistan, it was hard to find anyone to 'punish' for the offense....Sadly, in our, excuse me, Bush's zeal to 'get' someone and show 'em what America stands for, we have, as Wolfgang notes, descended to inventing reasons to attack 'convenient' targets that had some vague sympathy with Al Qaeda.

There are indeed, evil, confused and hate filled people in the world who wish to cause US (capitals intended) harm, but the truth is, there are more of them NOW than there were 5 years ago because of the foolish policies we have followed and the animosities we have created under the guise of 'protecting ourselves'.

I sincerely hope, that as we remember those who died in those vicious attacks and honor those heroes who tried to save the victims, that we reassess our goals and the methods we follow to achieve them. We NEED help from the world at large and some trust that we will be civil and fair as we try to adjust to this situation.

Our emotions were wrenched pretty hard 5 years ago, but we need our minds to guide our recovery.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 02:56 PM

And true to form, the same government that turned its back on Viet Nam vets and veteran's of the Gulf "War", who claimed physical ailments as a result of their work, is now penny pinching its way through the claims of those brave heroes who went daily to the disaster site and searched for the dead or helped clean up the mess.

But there are of course unlimited funds for fighting baby bush's daddy's war a second time.

And all those nations that hate us...well they just envy us our freedom. Yeah, right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 03:09 PM

What really bothers me is that many of us talk a good game, but as witnessed right here on Mudcat we have very little tolerance or understanding of the views and cultural difference of others.   The threads about science & religion as well as the kosher chicken in Monsey bears that out. If we can't work with each other to understand different views and cultures, why would we expect our governments to do any better? Perhaps governments actually do represent their citizens after all.

We can spend our lives trying to do something positive or we can continue to spread the same negative ideals.

If anything, we are all further apart on Sept 11, 2006 then we were on Sept 10, 2001.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 03:14 PM

I wonder would that be the 9-11 when a military coup deposed a democratically elected government, murdered its president and put a dictator into power who went on to tortured and massacre thousands of opponents with the help of the CIA and the full blessings of the USA - or was that Chile?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST,2
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 03:32 PM

Chile.   There are enough reliable witnesses to show that Allende committed suicide in the face of the coup. While the dictator who seized power was certainly brutal and should never have seized power, you can't paint Allende to be a saint. He was democratically elected but he won by a plurality and not by a majority of votes and cause him to utter the famous line "Santiago will be painted red with blood if I am not ratified as President." He failed to uphold the consititution of Chile while being backed by the KGB.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 04:50 PM

Sad day for the families who lost loved ones. Almost 3,000 dead is hard to imagine. Maybe we can also remember the 17,000 killed in the Middle East by the Americans since that sad day in America five years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 05:10 PM

I'm sick of it. Get over it already. Any bets on whether they make it a Nat'l Holdiay?????


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 06:26 PM

America has consistently used and endorsed terrorism throughout the latter half of the twentieth and into the twenty first century.
They can hardly complain when it backfires on them.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 06:32 PM

We should be more like Great Britain?


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 06:39 PM

Sorcha: Hear, Hear! Its long past time people stopped wallowing in this.

ENOUGH ALREADY!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 06:47 PM

I think you're kidding yourself if you think a great opportunity was lost on forming a consensus on terrorism.

In England, we know that whatever the depths a terrorist sinks to - there will be some who side with him. the bully in the playground often has his defenders - usually amongst the teachers more than the kids. there must be some psychological formula somewhere that explains why complete assholes always have their defenders. Shit in the water supply and somewhere someone will be applauding.

If you don't feel safe - its probably because you're not safe. But lets hope they have tightened up security and improved their intelligence gathering systems to make us all safer.

I don't like George Bush. To me his stance on capital punishment is inhumane. However there were no easy options open to him after 9/11. Lets hope he was bright enough to realise that and started spending money in an effective way to combat this problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 08:59 PM

"However there were no easy options open to him after 9/11. Lets hope he was bright enough to realise that and started spending money in an effective way to combat this problem."

huh???


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 09:51 PM

As Dianavan says: Bush? Bright enough? Huh?

Tilt--tilt--tilt


Does not compute.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 09:59 PM

Who, Him???? laff laff laff.....ROFLMAO!


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 10:00 PM

Propaganda the Bush regime has mastered.

Nothing else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: DougR
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 10:10 PM

Mick: I assume that the reason you believe the Bush Administration's policy of taking the fight to the terrorists is foolhardy is because you believe that the Terrorists can be reasoned with. Perhaps by a consortion of countries. That has been the US foreign policy since the early 1990', and it is a failed policy.

It is not necessary that the world "love" the United States. Other than Great Britain, who has been a valuable friend, there are few other countries that have the cojones to face the terrorists and deal with them in the only way they understand... Military force.

I'm certain when the next world disaster happens, the "world" will look to the US for help just as they always do, and we will help, whatever disaster it might be. They still, however, will not love the us. They will take the help, of course, but the will not love us.
DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 10:21 PM

"It is not necessary that the world "love" the United States. Other than Great Britain, who has been a valuable friend, there are few other countries that have the cojones to face the terrorists and deal with them in the only way they understand... Military force."

Oh Doug, you not only swallowed the Kool-aid but you went back for seconds.

What terrorists have we faced? We capture a guy who did not have a single weapon of mass destruction, a guy who tried to set his shoe on fire, and a few hundred people at Gitmo that we really know very little about.   If we are the cops of the world, we merely grabbed a few guys stealing penny candy and we act like we have captured public enemy #1. It is has been a deception game of smoke and mirrors and spin doctors.

It doesn't take cojones to beat up on the defenseless. We killed over 30,000 Iraqis but yet we can't find a tall guy in a turban hooked up to a dialysis unit. Satellites can read your watch dial and we can't find the people who did this. Think this through and stop defending these bastards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Raptor
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 10:35 PM

With the Bush policies of "You agree with me or you are the terrorists" Do you wonder where the love is?

I don't remember anyone asking for Bush's help Doug.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: John O'L
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 11:07 PM

I've just been hearing on the radio Bush talking about leading the world into a new age of freedom and peace or some such crap, and I find myself thinking "Who is this guy? President of the United States of America. Is he telling me anything I haven't already heard? Is he saying anything I feel I can believe? Is he saying anything of interest at all?"

It will take a long time for the office of President to recover from his occupation, if it ever does.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Sep 06 - 11:57 PM

I have to admit I was a bit unfair. The Bush team does have other skills.

They're very good at breaking, destroying, and killing--though not necessarily what they were actually aiming to break, destroy or kill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 12:27 AM

Try telling the soldiers serving out there, how defenceless these people are.

I don't really think its a question of cojones either though.

basically the French paid a terrible price in world war one and it didn't buy them very much. and Germany has probably had enough of militarism to last another millenium.

And I think they look at England and America still immersed in wargames - and they find the whole mindset repellent.

In the end its all down to trust. I don't trust Bush, but I did trust Blair. I know he springs from a tradition and a political party that I associate with integrity and decent behaviour. If he has waged war, I assume he has done it because he saw no other option.

It is worth adding that most of my countrymen see me as a naive fool in holding these beliefs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: DougR
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 12:27 AM

Why don't you folks invite Bin Laden in for tea? I'm sure you would have a lot in common and no doubt you could convince him to turn his efforts toward more peaceful pursuits ...say tiddle winks?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: John O'L
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 12:37 AM

Bin Laden has nothing to do with the war in Iraq. Or more correctly, the war in Iraq has nothing to do with Bin Laden


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 01:02 AM

Well as long as Osama has given you his word as a decent chap that he and his friends are not bowling us googlies in Iraq.

Well that's darn well good enough for me.

Gosh! I wonder which blighter we are fighting!


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 04:46 AM

The illegal war, imprisonment without trial, torure and humiliation of (untried) prisoners, carpet bombing of civilians (including chemical weapons again) and the support of genocide by the Israelis is handing the victory to Bin Laden and his cohorts.
The Brits have merely become Bush's trained poodles.
Bush is not fighting terrorism - he is just selecting which terrorists he wishes to call his friends.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST,paranoid conspiracy nut
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 06:23 AM

OK what happened to the posts here a couple of days ago claiming use of thermite type explosives to produce a controlled demolition of the towers?
It seems pretty unlikely that both towers would collapse in such a symmetrical fashion (even allowing for the devastating impact)
The theory that the floor trusses softened in the heat and then fell in a chain reaction does not explain why the massively strong steel core of the building should not have remained at least partially standing.
Plenty more "conspiracy nut" material at http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 06:54 AM

Paranoid Conspiracy nut, I checked and no posts have been deleted from this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 07:05 AM

The thermite posts were in a thread about poultry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 07:12 AM

Gentlemen please, we all have a view on this issue and there is probably more going on behind the scenes and has been than we will ever know about. I am not throwing in my pennys worth on the politics of it all, as I tend to say out of these debates, I get enough to do with Irish issues !

Let's please think about the total loss of life on both sides for a moment. Speaking from my own experience, it's those on the ground like ourselves that end up supporting coffins on our shoulders.

Again speaking from experience, the politicans, military and those leaders given to a cause rarely get to understand what it's like to
loose a loved one.

So come on, let's keep friendship the order of the day here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 07:38 AM

To be honest DS - I don't have a view.

And one of the many lessons from the really bad years of the situation in Northern Ireland, as you say is that, WE don't know much. Politicians simply can't be trusted to speak truthfully,or even second guessed at to what state their negotiations are at. For all we know Osama, might be at this moment sitting with his feet up in the White House discussing with George what load of shite they will dish up to the plebs this week.

However having said that, pretending there was some simple solution to the complex set of circumstances surrounding 9/11. well that is one I just won't buy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: Raptor
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 08:39 AM

I agree with Davis 100%

Good for you!

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 09:21 AM

"Why don't you folks invite Bin Laden in for tea? I'm sure you would have a lot in common and no doubt you could convince him to turn his efforts toward more peaceful pursuits ...say tiddle winks?"

Too late, it appears that our government already did that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 09:36 AM

I think Keith Olberman summed it all up - "We Have Not Forgotten, Mr. President."


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 09:39 AM

Here is another link to the MSNBC site - MSNBC - Olbermann


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: John Hardly
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 10:45 AM

Those who dislike the US because of her reaction to 9/11, disliked the US before 9/11. They were just quieted for a few months until the dust from the towers settled a bit. Then, once they figured out a new way to express their dislike for the US again, they started back where they began.

It'll forever be thus. At least until the US collapses. It is human nature to love an underdog. It is human nature to dislike the successful if "they" are not "us".


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Subject: RE: BS: Five years after 9/11
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 06 - 01:46 PM

Please don't tell us why we don't like the US - try convincing us by explaining your government's global policies - that should do the trick
Jim Carroll


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