acoustic guitar effects

Subject: acoustic guitar effects
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 05:50 AM

As I can't gig for a while at least due to health problems, I am setting myself a wee little task.

Namely finding out about recording an acoustic guitar sound. I want to create a big sexy guitar sound.

There two schools of thought here:-
1) the basic sound is the sound - get a good guitar, put a good microphone in the right position in front of it - you will achieve the ultimate.
2) the sound is a wave form, and fair game to be messed about with - with whatever means you can lay your hands on.

The Americans seem to have a lead over us Brits in this. Take Eric Taylors recordings - the guitar seems to come at you about eyeball level, and it is majestic and substantial. I don't know any English folksingers who get that recorded sound - although some guys like Alan Taylor(no relation) seem to achieve it live.

I am sure other guitarists must have pondered this, and I would value your thoughts before I start getting my hands and mind dirty with effort and frustration.

Subject: RE: acoustic guitar effects
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 06:30 AM

"There two schools of thought here:-
1) the basic sound is the sound - get a good guitar, put a good microphone in the right position in front of it - you will achieve the ultimate."

Why not try TWO really good microphones to create a full stereo picture?

Subject: RE: acoustic guitar effects
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 06:59 AM

Okay.
Which good microphones?
Where positioned?
How would you eq each of those? Would you add reverb or delay to the channel?
Would you say it was possible to record the voice at the same time?

Subject: RE: acoustic guitar effects
From: Mooh
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 07:11 AM

Ultimately do both. Start with a good sounding axe and work on getting its recorded signal as real as possible, the stereo option mentioned above is good too. Also take a wet signal from an alternate source, some sort of pickup, and tinker with the sounds. You then have the option to use one or the other or mix them. I don't personally care for piezo signals through effects processors, preferring a magnetic pickup for that purpose, but certainly there are a lot of variables and your ears will be your guide.

The other option of course is to have a variety of good sounding guitars with discernable differences, 6, 12, baritone, bass, resonator, classical, and related things like cittern, bouzouki, and mandolin, etc. (Experiment with articulation techniques, slides, slurs, bends, hammer-ons, pull-offs, tapping, slapping, and gizmos like EBow and bottleneck...much can be done with the hands alone.)

Even with all the sound/tone options, start with a good axe and good original signals with good mics and pickups. For recording I prefer large and small diaphram condensor mics, leave the sm57s for live work.

Your milage may vary.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: acoustic guitar effects
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 07:27 AM

Up to half a dozen or more carefully located - inside the guitar, taken from acoustic and mag pickups, and well as mics of various types located at various distance and heights located at various places within 360 degrees or even behind the player - signal inputs may be used by some guitarists. And then they start mixing, processing, and multitracking...

Now in the old days, you just sang into a tin can...

Then it was just musicianship: now it's more Art than Science, depending on what the guy playing with (and paying for) all the gadgets wants to achieve...

Subject: RE: acoustic guitar effects
From: leeneia
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 08:37 AM

Weelittledrummer wants "a big, sexy guitar sound." Anything can be big, but sexiness is confined to the living.

Thus I believe that the recording equipment may do "big", but "sexy" is a matter of musicianship. Musicianship would include selecting, as mentioned, the right guitar, strings, picks (if any) and articulation.

They are not thick on the ground, but what I think you are yearning for is a Kamourska Etude guitar.

Mooh, what is a wet signal?

Subject: RE: acoustic guitar effects
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 09:02 AM

I'm for choice number one. I'll get back to you on a choice of mics.

Subject: RE: acoustic guitar effects
From: Mooh
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 10:00 AM

leeneia...Wet signal has effects. Dry does not.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: acoustic guitar effects
From: jonm
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 10:36 AM

I'd recommend taking the signal from any pickup if fitted, plus the signals from two mics - I prefer one at 90 degrees to the neck, about as close as you can without clouting it, aimed at the neck/body join and another at about 45 degrees pointing at the soundhole from the tail direction.

It's important to keep the signals separate and try to get the best possible clean and natural sound. You can blend them, change EQ and add reverb/echo/delay/chorus to taste at a later stage.

Remember, you cannot take effects OFF a recorded signal.

Subject: RE: acoustic guitar effects
From: Nick
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 12:07 PM

Are you talking about a playing on stage sound or a recorded at home/studio sound?

If it's the former I'd love to know too but as you gave me advice in a previous thread about amplifying an acoustic live I would guess not.

Is there an example of the sound you want to get to that you could point us at?

From the little I know about this and have found out good acoustic guitar sounds are based on nice sounding guitar - mic positioning - stereo recording - and particularly good quality mics. A friend I do some things with has a big guitar electronics sound which is loud and to my ears horrible but each to their own

Big fat sound suggests things like compression - doubling the track - perhaps a touch of chorus - multiple parts - other instrument fattening the sound. Not sure about sexy or how you do that (is it like slinky? LOL).

My son gets a nice acoustic sound - shall I send you or post somewhere some examples of the sorts of sounds we get from what is an INCREDIBLY primitive set up at home and you could at least go - "god those are horrible?" :)

One of favourite acoustic guitar sounds is on an album from donkeys years ago by Elton John on Come Down in Time. There are about two bars where I just think the sound is just lovely - it sounds like a beautifully played acoustic.

I also have a Pat Metheney solo guitar album which has a nice sound (on a baritone guitar I think).

Give us an idea of what sound you want.

Subject: RE: acoustic guitar effects
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 06 - 12:30 PM

Like I say Eric Taylor is my main man at the moment =-- when it comes to recorded sound, which is what I'm aiming for. I've got a Boss Multitrack thing - the 16 track one.

my adress
alan whittle
20 manifold drive
selston
notts
ng16 6gw

I've never heard of a Kamourska Etude guitar. I will look it up - who plays one?

Thanks to all of you for your opinions, and any tips .. I will try that mic positioning... I've only got a couple of shure copies at the moment. I did have some AKG 100s's at one time but they seem to have gone walkabout. Anyway I'll probably get some more, if someone can come up with some ral goo ideas.

I am also intrigued by the chaining together of effects - which is something I haven't tried.

Subject: RE: acoustic guitar effects
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Sep 06 - 01:55 AM

"mic positioning"

The actual sound that a mic gets depends on the exact physical distance from the sound source - moving it a fraction of the wavelength of a single pitch alters that relationship of the phase of that pitch to the phase of all the other pitches, including overtones.

Consequently, just a small distance may have a great effect - but unless you are in an anechoic chamber, you will also get reflections of the sound from everything in the vicinity of you and the instrument. This makes it even more complicated.

You may find it easiest to first try moving the Mics largish distances to get the right 'sort' of blend of all that direct and reflected sound, then try small increments to see if you can detect much change.