'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 09:39 AM

And now, returning you to the music!

Avoid upsetting the priest, ask for a hymn which uses the same air (from an earlier post by Joe)

From: Joe Offer - PM
Date: 29 Aug 98 - 02:48 PM

Well, that was easier to find than I expected. Westminster Abbey (click here) has a very interesting Web site, and they still have Princess Diana's funeral program posted. You'll find full information about the song you requested there, and I think you may be able to find some discussion about it if you enter a phrase from the song in our forum search (or, click here). I'll post the lyrics here for you, too.
-Joe Offer-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The prayers will conclude with the offering of a prayer for the congregation, after which the choristers will sing:


I would be true, for there are those that trust me.
I would be pure for there are those that care.
I would be strong, for there is much to suffer.
I would be brave, for there is much to dare.
I would be friend of all, the foe, the friendless.
I would be giving, and forget the gift.
I would be humble, for I know my weakness,
I would look up, laugh. love and live.


Air from County Derry in G - Petrie; The Ancient Music of Ireland (1853), commonly known as 'O Danny Boy'

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 10:28 AM

Joe_Offer - it's been nice reading your replies here. I no longer practise as a Catholic but once raised in that faith, one is often "culturally Catholic" for the rest of their life. I was part of my own Parish's music ministry from the time I could play a child-sized guitar. being born in 1964, I came of age at the height of the Catholic Folk-Mass. Even then when things were considered to be "looser" in format, we still had the rules you describe.


Anyway - in our family, the place for Danny boy was at the Funeral Home on the last night of the Wake or at the semi-formal banquet which followed the service at the cemetry. For Irish-Americans, there areplanty of places and moments during the standard funeral tradtions to insert a favorite old tune outside of the Mass.

As for nice hymns to sing at a Funeral mass - I've always been partial to 'Wherever You Go" by Gregopry Norbet formerly of Weston Priory. Even though it was written as a wedding song, it is appropriate at funerals.

These days I hear two selections from Faure's requiem at funeral masses: Sanctus and In Paradisium. The In Paradisium is the same section of the Mass that the Danny Boy tune is used for and is usually the recessional. it's a very lovely and peaceful way to end a Funeral Mass. if you aren't familiar with the work, I recommend it. It's not at all sad and ponderous. The music is angelic. By the time the In Paradisium plays, you feel as if a great weight has slipped off your back and you are floating. I've sung the the choir for this piece in concert several times and it's a very moving experience.

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 12:03 AM

I like "Wherever You Go," too. It's a wonderful expression of fidelity. It's actually the words of (pagan) Ruth to her Jewish mother-in-law Naomi. After she was widowed, Ruth pledged to stand by and support her husband's mother:

Wherever you go, I shall go,
Wherever you live, so shall I live.
Your people will be my people,
And your God will be my God, too.

Wherever you die, I shall die,
And there shall I be buried beside you.
We will be together forever,
And our love will be the gift of our life.
(Gregory Norbet, paraphrased from the Book of Ruth)

I don't want to deny the bad Catholic church experiences people have expressed here. I've had my share of them, too; and I've spend a lot of time working to try to ensure that things are done in the Church with justice and compassion. Part of the reason why I lost my job as parish adult education director this summer was that I was smeared unfairly (and incorrectly) by a fundamentalist priest from another parish, who claimed I was teaching heresy. It hurt. I'm not quite sure what my function in the parish is now, but I no longer get a paycheck.

On the other hand, I work for four nuns at a center for impoverished women, and it's a wonderful place. Aroung the corner is the headquarters of a very effective and extensive food bank network, founded by a Catholic priest. On the other side of downtown Sacramento is a dining room and care center for the homeless, founded by a former priest and directed by a nun. All of these are well-run charities with roots in the Catholic Church, staffed by volunteers from many denominations.

So, while I've had bad experiences, most of what I've encountered is good - or else I've worked to make it good.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: pavane
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 06:49 AM

Just a note on Danny Boy:

The words were written c1910 by an Englishman, Fred Weatherly, and I do not know whether he was a Catholic or not (Quite probably not). There is also no evidence that he ever visited Ireland.

So it should not be at all controversial (Unless you object to ENGLISH songs!)

There is also no evidence as to WHO is supposed to be singing to Danny.

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 07:15 AM

A problem that does not touch me as a non-Catholic and non-Irish.
I always thought that Danny Boy is played as a remembrance of an Irish origin and coherence, and since a lot (most of?) Irishmen are Catholic the song naturally is played at Catholic burials.
It surely is no part of a service. But many people (over here, too) like their favourite song performed at their burial as a last being together with their surviving friends joined in a common beloved song.
So why can't you have performed a secualar song at the grave when the service is ended with the blessing issued?

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 07:46 AM

Wilfried Schaum - The original post didn't suggest that the song was forbidden at the graveside service, just as part of the Funeral mass which is a formalised, set-down thing as joe described. The graveside service also has a formal part to it but once the priest has finished, if he has no objection, families often have someone sing Danny Boy or some other secular song.

Irish-American funerals have several traditional parts of them outside of the Mass and Graveside prayer but as time in this country (USA) has gone by and families assimilate, those traditions tend to fall away. then all you have is the adult children's memories of Danny Boy being sung "at the funeral" and they think the Church has issued some new prohibition when their request is refused. Also, after generations of intermarriage and seeing secular songs sung inside less orthodox churches, the adult children don't see the reason for the denial of their request. One would assume that any practising Catholic or even lapsed Catholic who once attended Mass regularly would know why such songs aren't permitted, but with time away from the Church and distance from it's Liturgy, such things get foggy.

Formal Irish Wakes that used to have 2 or 3 nights with 2 sessions each night are now often collapsed into one night of 2 sessions or one session entirely. This leaves little room for secular songs since there is a formal liturgy for the wake as well. Also, many Irish-Catholic families no longer live in the same city and have to forego the post-graveside service supper where such songs are traditionally welcomed. I used to think the 3 day Wake plus Mass, plus Burial plus supper was overdoing it, but as I get older, I find those traditions comforting. In our family, it would be a scandal to Wake a person in one day. Often the same people come all three nights but not to both sessions.

In summary, if you know of anyone who may have a surprise over Danny Boy waiting for them come time to bury their father, suggest to them that they mention including Danny Boy to the Funeral Director at the initial consultation. If they use and Irish funeral home, the director will be able to give them some good options. I also find having the Funeral Home plan the Supper at a nearby restaurant can result in a more meaningful event. Plus, they often have discount arrangements with the caterer and can hire you appropriate musicans.

Which reminds me, those of you muscians who might want to seek an opprtunity to be paid to sing such songs at a Memorial Supper, the gravseide service or at a Wake should consider providing your local Funeral homes with some samples of your repertoire and let them know you are available for such bookings. Directors also like to know about local harpists and pipers.

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 09:09 AM

Pavane:
As to who is singing to Danny, I would go for the option of a lover. This Thread discusses the singer, and there I have added the alternate lyrics provided by the author (Fred Weatherly) to be used when sung by a man.
The fact that he intended 'Danny Boy' to be sung by a woman, or 'Eily Dear' to be sung by a man seems to make it clear that it is neither parental, nor filial love he was writing about.

CHEERS
Nigel

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 09:15 AM

Is the Pope still infallible ?   Surely he should have realised that by making a totally accurate statement it would proke extremists to act. And of course, they did, by shooting an Italian nun in Somalia. Q.E.D.

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Greg B
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 09:42 PM

Joe:

>All of us have flaws - if that's what you're looking for, you're sure >to find them.

I'll take my flaws, thanks.

Buggering little boys and teenage men, then getting up the
next morning and saying Mass isn't among them. Nor is covering
up and issuing apologias for those who do. Nor diddling adolescent
girls.

Nor have I taken a vow of celibacy, then broken it at every turn.

But hey, I'm not perfect.

So since I'm not perfect, I guess I ought to be forgiving of all
the forgoing and overlook it, eh wot?

Last time I checked it was 'If you love me, feed my sheep.' Not
'do my sheep.'

Greg

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 11:34 PM

Hey, I don'ty even go to Catholic mass anymore ut I still feel discussions of Catholic music and use of music at Cahtolic services shouldn't get bogged down by issues people have with the Church. I have plenty of them which is why I don't worship there any more but I prefer to make my personal views on issues such as the Sex Abuse scandal in BS threads where they belong.

The truth is, the Music Ministry here in the US has been largely handled by the Layity for 3 generations. Since this is so, it isn't constructive to talk about issues of Clergy misbehavior in such threads. Joe_Offer has been a consistent and excellent source of information, documentation and historical context on Catholic music and I hope he continues to feel free to offer such incites and info.

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: GUEST,Essex Girl sans cookie
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 09:05 AM

I attended an Irish catholic funeral yesterday, where we all sang Lord of the Dance and then the cortege left the church to a recording of Danny Boy. No one objected.

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 02:08 PM

Well, I do go to Catholic mass and one of the issues I do have with the church is how awful the music is. I also cringe at the thought that the very same people (perhaps) who covered up the abuse scandales, allowed the priests to keep serving, etc. etc. are the same ones who forbid the singing of Danny Boy. Not that I usually mind hypocracy, and I do believe it serves a societal purpuse, but this is too much.   And I don't think many people expect it to be in the mass itself, only like on the way out. mg

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 04:12 PM

Well, Mary, I have to say that you're generalizing, which makes it very hard to carry on a discussion with you. I will agree that some modern Catholic songs have lyrics that are silly, but that's certainly not the case with many of them. In fact, many of the most-used hymns have texts that come directly from Scripture.

And yes, some bishops covered up sex abuse, and some priests and bishops were and are guilty of sex abuse. More often the situation was that the bishops did not handle the sex abuse as well as it should have been handled. And the fact of the matter is, nobody has come up with a perfect answer to the problem of sex abuse. Right now, the bishops are in a zero-tolerance crackdown mode, but the trouble with zero-tolerance is that innocent people end up getting punished in the shuffle, and a zero-tolerance policy fails to distinguish between minor indiscretions and major offenses. Yes, the Catholic Church handled the sex abuse scandal badly - but nobody has handled it well.

And you know, even child molestors and Republicans can make reasonable judgments about church music at times.

And, as has been stated before, what usually happens is that "Danny Boy" and other secular songs are prohibited within the Mass itself, but permitted before or after the Mass. But child molesting and what the pope says about Islam have nothing to do with church music at all. I suppose, though, that this sort of approach is part of our culture nowadays - if we can find anything at all wrong with another person, they we feel justified in condemning all his thoughts and actions as worthless. If he cuts his toenails wrong, then there's no way he can make competent judgments on anything.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 05:58 PM

Well, I'll get ten years in purgatory, but those are the worst songs..the ones they took from Scripture. They are exactly the ones I am talking about. They do not sound like music. I have really only heard a couple of reasonably good or good songs that are new ever. One is I am the bread of life. Can't remember what the other was. And I could never understand how come the Spanish-language songs never got ruined like the English ones did. They still have pretty songs in musical rhythms etc. Honest, if anyone thinks I am exaggerating, go to your nearest Catholic church. I have tried ear plugs in mine, sitting in the baby room, ...we have two exceptionally bad singing women who screech, and not only sing the maximum allowed but make you sit through their rehearsals before Mass etc. It is a serious problem. If I had any choice in the matter I would never darken the doors again but I don't think I should. mg

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 08:53 PM

Well, Mary, I have to say the modern Catholic songs I hate are the ones that have buzzwords and pop psychology terms. This one contains neither, but I think it's silly nonetheless. Actually, I like four of the five verses, but the third verse of the "Servant Song" makes me call it the "Preposition Song":

Above, below, and around me,
Before, behind, and all through me,
Your Spirit moves deep within me,
Fire my life with your love...

That's EIGHT prepositions in four lines. Is this worship, or English grammar class?
But gee, if you don't like scripture in hymns, maybe you should try a non-theistic religion, hey?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: mg
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 11:18 PM

Wrong answer. We didn't use to have scripture in hymns and they were just fine. I never had one complaint, except for Pange Lingua and more than one Gregorian Chant per week. Scripture can be read and it sounds fine. It really has not been put to music satisfactorly ...what I have heard. mg

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 11:29 PM

I learned a great deal from this thread

Perhaps, an area divided into:
Jewish
Orthodox Catholic
Roman
Greek Ortho
Protestant
Wiccan
Hindu
Muslum - (Lord help us don't go there with 99 versions of visions of virgins)
Green People

Some are called to all.

JOE - a Most SINCERE Thank You!

I gained insight, compassion and understanding (and perhaps, a few scheckles in the long run)

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 12:50 AM

Yeah great idea. Finish off with a chorus song - they always go down well.

1) If you're Jewish and you know it, clap your hands (clap! clap!)
2) If you're Orthodox Catholic and you know it (clap! clap!)
and so on

Pehaps an encore of I'm a believer!

(Agnostics can be exempted - if they can prove they are not now, nor ever have been - a member of the Monkees Fan Club.)

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Greg B
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 11:04 AM

Those who're sick of a certain genre of music will enjoy this
site: Society for a Moratorium on the Music of Marty Haugen and David Haas, or SMMMHDH

I was a liturgical musician through the late 70's and the 80's,
and have to admit to ownership of a very tattered G&P Vol 1.

A fine training ground in ensemble playing before a relatively
friendly audience.

Speaking of audiences, whenver the group got really good someone
would complain that it seemed more like a 'performance.' We'd
tell them that we'd make a concerted effort to suck next week.
You know, get four guitars (three of 'em twelve strings) all
playing wonka-wonka-wonka rhythms, turn all the D-chords into
D-major, bring in a flute player that hadn't played (or tuned)
since junior high...

That fixed 'em.

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 01:03 PM

Greb_B - you made me laugh. We used to get the same thing. If we permitted one person to solo a verse or did finger picking as opposed to basic strumming, we'd often be told that we were there to accompany and not to "perform". however, the people telling us this were the folks from the Traditional Choir or the lady who got paod to play the organ at the next Mass. Folk mass was limited to Saturdays at 6Pm and Sundays at 9Am.

Mg- most RC churches offer an early mass with no music at all. If yout home Parish doesn't have one, you can always suggest one or go to a nearby Parish that does. These are usually sparsely attended because of the early hour but I enjoyed them. Straight Liturgy and very little else. Most of the folks who liked that Mass were older or objected to things such as Communion in the hand and overly friendly Sign of the Peace, people raising their arms during the Lord's Prayer etcs. The early Mass was always a refuge of tradition. My mother who objects to none of those modern things enjoys early Mass because she feels it allows her a deeper meditation on the sacrament. No distractions - just her and The Lord.

The Parishes near me still do early Mass at 6Am on weekdays and at 7:30 Am sat & Sunday. You might find that you like such a Mass. I know our local Parish is always pleased to have more members attend at early Mass. Here in Los Angeles, a lot of folks like to go to early Mass in the summer on Sundays because the older Churches don't have air conditioning. Just a suggestion.

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 03:52 AM

I can recall visiting a friend who was playing the organ at St Pat's Cathedral (Melbourne) about 40 years ago. In the organ loft was a music book with the title "Sacred and Profane" or words to that effect. With only a secular knowledge of the use of the word "profane" I enquired of him why such music would be allowed in a catholic cathedral. I can't remember his exact words but the sense of his reply was very much along the lines that Joe Offer has so eloquently explained, above.

Ta muchly, Rowan

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 06:43 AM

Joe:, the 'preposition hymn' as you call it seems to have good antecedents. So it can hardly be considered a 'modern' problem.

I am particularly thinking of one verse of "St Patrick's Breastplate" (C F Alexander 1889)

Christ be with me, Christ within me,
Christ behind me, Christ before me,
Christ beside me, Christ to win me,
Christ to comfort and restore me.
Christ beneath me, Christ above me,
Christ in quiet, Christ in danger,
Christ in hearts of all that love me,
Christ in mouth of friend and stranger.

Do I see a similarity here?

CHEERS
Nigel

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 04:26 AM

I could say touche', Nigel - but I won't. There's a very fine line between the ridiculous and the sublime. "St. Patrick's Breastplate" does indeed have lots of prepositions - but it works.
Look at my "Preposition Song" again and see the difference:

Above, below, and around me,
Before, behind, and all through me,
Your Spirit moves deep within me,
Fire my life with your love...

"Patrick" is profound. "Preposition," to me, is ridiculous. I think part of the beauty is in "Patrick's" parallel structure, a device that has been used very artfully in hymns all the way back to the Psalms. "Preposition" is just that - an unordered list of prepositions.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Greg B
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 08:22 AM

>Mg- most RC churches offer an early mass with no music at all.

Just the snoring. I kid you not...the snoring. As an altar
boy you seem to see an hear everything :-)

Greg

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: paddymac
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 09:57 AM

Lots of good commentary in this thread, and then lots of other - verbiage, as well. The problem is abuse of power, and it is not limited to the religious folks, nor to any one variety thereof. Not all of history's Hitlers wear swastikas.

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 11:26 AM

Joe_Offer, St. Patrick's breastplate IS profound and I elieve it is also a paraphrase of the Scripture about Spiritual Armour. Isn't that in Ephesians? I'm nor near a Bile so I can't look. Sorry. I think it's Ephesians 6, verses 14 through.. I don't know. I recall that verse mentions a breastplate and girding yourself. Maybe it's verses 11 through 14.. I'm just not with it today. apologies

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: PoppaGator
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 01:18 AM

I'd just like to reiterate what I was trying to say in my original post, and perhaps express myself more clearly:

I was pleasantly surprised to learn ~ at my own mother's memorial Mass ~ that a highly appropriate, undeniably religious, and linguistically graceful set of lyrics is available to be sung to the familiar melody of "Danny Boy" (aka "The Londonderry Air"). I wish I had been given advance notice, and had been better prepared to participate in the singing; as it happened, I didn't realize until the third or fourth line that the words being sung were in fact printed in the program.

I would respectfully suggest that, in those jurisdictions where the secular "Danny Boy" lyrics are forbidden, that parishioners be made aware of this option and be encouraged to consider singing the "In Paradisum" translation, using the popular and familiar melody that they love.

An aside, on the subject of "folk mass" liturgical music:

Back in the early days of post-Vatican-II liturgical reform, a very popular new hymn (and a personal favorite of mine) was "They Will Know We Are Christians By Our Love." Anyone remember that old guitar-mass favorite? After just a few short years, it suddenly seemed to fall into disfavor, and was pretty much never heard again. It seemed to me that the lyric's very explicit embrace of ecumenicism, its expression of solidarity with all Christians (including, heaven forbid, non-Catholics), were deemed offensive by the reactionary forces who took over the Church after the death of Pope John XXIII and attempted to roll back as many of his reforms as possible. That era, incidentally, marked the beginning of the end of my personal involvement with institutional Catholicism...

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 01:59 AM

Hi, PoppaGator - "They'll Know We Are Christians," by Peter Scholtes, was published in 1966 by F.E.L. Publications. FEL was a bit heavy-handed in pursuing copyright infringement lawsuits against parishes and dioceses. they won lots of money in the lawsuits, but soon fell out of popularity and went out of business. Rights to their songs were apparently bought up by the Lorenz Corporation, but most FEL songs dropped out of sight. Other publishers had come to the forefront with songs that were more musically sophisticated (and less tied to three chords).

"They'll Know We Are Christians" is one FEL song that's still in use, although it's probably considered a second-tier song by most parishes. It's in the hymnals of both major U.S. Catholic publishers, OCP and GIA.

It's a good song, and I know it by heart, but it does seem kind of "dated" nowadays. I sing it maybe once or twice a year - although I'll use it more often when I'm leading singing for Masses where there is no accompaniment, when I'm looking for a good, strong song that most people know.


-Joe-

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: GUEST,Paddy the Greek
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 05:25 PM

Two points:
Adolf Hitler was a devout Catholic..
Best not call it 'Londonderry' at a Catholic funeral..

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 06:06 PM

Er...at one time, Adolf Hitler may have been a devout Catholic. I think you'll find he did not attend Mass with any regularity after he entered politics, and regular attendance at Sunday Mass is a usual measure of a Catholic's devotion. But what does Hitler have to do with the singing of "Danny Boy" at Mass?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: michaelr
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 10:47 PM

I think "Danny Boy" should be allowed to be sung ONLY at Catholic funerals.






That way I would never have to hear the damn thing again...

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 10:59 AM

>>"They Will Know We Are Christians By Our Love." Anyone remember that old guitar-mass favorite?<<

Remember it well, I do. During the great purge of songs from the folk hymnals in the late 70s, that one went bye bye. I don't recall if it was a copyrtight issue as Joe_Offer mentioned or the possibility that it wasn't "Catholic enough", the 2nd reasons certain songs fell out of use. Even though it was removed from our Hymnals, we continued to use it at the CCD Children's Mass because all the kids knew it by heart.


Incidentally, I just saw a news article on the CNN site that listed Danny Boy in the top ten of all-time funeral favorites.

Poppa gator brings up a good point again - that there is a perefectly suitable liturgical set of lyrics to the tune of Londonderry Air that can be subsituted in Parish's that are srtict on this issue.

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 11:14 AM

Dang - I meant to include that 'They will know We are Christians by our love' is a reference to a number of scriptures that say you can recognize other Christians because they will be 'Cloothed in love' or 'Clothed with love' depnding on the translation. Then there is also Colossians 3:14 admonishing us to 'cloth yourselves with love'. One of my favorite scriptures. In other words, don't clothe yourself in piety and other such demonstrations or with symbols, just clothe yourself in love in all will see who you really are. It's why I no longer wear a Cross but instead try to wear my love for others openly.

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 12:30 PM

My feeling about "They Will Know..." is that the explicit message of the first verse proved to be "too ecumenical" (i.e., "not Catholic enough") for the reactionary bunch that came to power in the Church along with Paul VI:

We are one in the Spirit / we are one in the Lord (2x)
And we pray that all (our?) unity / will one day be restored..."

The "we" doing the singing obviously identify themselves as Christians (including Protestants, Orthodox, Copts, etc.), not as a group consisting exclusively of Roman Catholics (members of the One True Church).

I've always felt that the degree of openness expressed in this song led to its fall from favor when the hardliners took charge of the Vatican and proceeded to do everything they could to undo the "damage" done by John XXIII, who they elected only because they didn't expect him to live long enough to accomplish anything...

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Greg B
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 01:03 PM

>We are one in the Spirit / we are one in the Lord (2x)
>And we pray that all (our?) unity / will one day be restored..."

I was a Catholic schoolboy in the heyday of that song, and believe
me, the notion placed in OUR heads was that the verse meant that we
hoped that the Protestants would eventually come to their senses and
come back to the 'fold.' We were so steeped in the 'One True Church'
rhetoric that our arrogance didn't brook the notion that Rome might
be the one to move. (Recall this was when we didn't sing 'Away in
A Manger' because it was ostensibly written by Martin Luther.)

I rather subscribe to the theory that, like so many other 'gee
kids we can us GUITARS at Mass!' songs, this one got swallowed up
by the St. Louis Jesuits revolution. There were a bunch of songs
that happened to. 'Of My Hands' by the Damiens. The early, up-beat,
'Peace Prayer of St. Francis.' The really campy 'It's a Brand
New Day.' Let's face it, some of these early attempts came off
as very contrived, or campy, or didn't scanprop erlyto
quite fit-the-me ter. Not only was the St. Louis stuff pretty
well-constructed by skilled musicians right out of the gate,
it was very well packaged and marketed. Musicians liked to play
it, people like to hear and sing it, and people with the
purse-trings liked to be able to get the materials.

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: SharonA
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 01:16 PM

A wonderful, informative discussion. I've learned some info I'd never known about "Danny Boy" and the Catholic Church, and I've been reminded of the old "They Will Know We Are Christians" song which was so ecumenical that it was sung at the youth-group meetings in the fundamentalist-Protestant church I attended (i.e. was forced to attend).

But something seems to be missing here -- maybe it was covered in another thread (if so, I didn't see it go by) -- so I'd like to make sure it gets mentioned here. I'd like to express my condolences to PoppaGator on the passing of his mother. I hope that her decision to donate her body to medical science will benefit many other folks.

Sharon

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 01:52 PM

Now it's the St. Louis Jesuits that are considered "oldies" music. I went to a reunion concert by the Jesuits in April, and really enjoyed it. I also heard Marty Haugen and David Haas at workshops that weekend. I have to say I like the Jesuits better than Haas/Haugen/Hurd (the Catholic Big three), but there are a number of Haas/Haugen/Hurd songs I like very much - they even use traditional melodies at times, and have resurrected some tunes from Southern Harmony. Both the "folk mass" musicians and Haas/Haugen/Hurd have a nasty tendency to use buzzwords and terms that are in temporary popularity. The Jesuits used mostly Scripture for their lyrics.

"They'll Know We Are Christians By Our Love" is one of the few survivors of the "folk mass" period. As I said above, it's in the hymnals of OCP and GIA, the two big Catholic publishers in the U.S.; and it's also in the J.S. Paluch hymnals. There are some others that should have survived from that era, like the gospel-laced songs of Rev. Clarence Rivers ("God Is Love"), and the songs of Joe Wise.

These are all songs I've lived with all my life, and I know many of them by heart. I wish I could remember folk song lyrics so well. I won't sing St. Louis Jesuits songs at the Getaway or Camp Harmony.
-Joe-

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Click here for an article by Michael Joncas on Catholic liturgical music.
Click here for an article by Ken Canedo Rev. Clarence Rivers and his music.
Click here for a 2004 obituary for Fr. Rivers.

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 08:36 PM

Sharon ~ Thanks for your concern.

Actually, Mom's passing, at age 84, was not a terribly sad event. She had been suffering from dementia for about seven years, and her condition had deteriorated badly over the past six months or so. All of us ~ friends and family ~ had been afraid that she would hang on for months and years in her severly diminished condition; her mother and grasndmother had both lived well into their 90s, and Mom's physical (as opposed to mental) health was pretty good until shortly before the end.

We all agreed that it was a blessing that she was taken so soon after we had to finally move her out of her home (where she had lived for years with full-time live-in caregivers) and put her into a nursing home.

Here's a link to her obituary, as printed in the Newark Star-Ledger:
http://obits.nj.com/StarLedger/DeathNotices.asp?Page=LifeStory&PersonId=18918028

Also: Greg, I, too, remember "Away in a Manger" as being "verboten." Crazy, huh?

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 03:05 AM

I guess I was in a liberal Catholic diocese (Milwaukee, which had lots of Lutherans) - we learned TWO tunes for "Away in a Manger."
-Joe-

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Greg B
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 01:40 PM

The whole 'Away in a Mnager' thing was spotty, and seemed
to vary by priest.

As did the view on 'Oh Holy Night' where the text of the
first verse is in fact considered heretical by some.

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 02:36 PM

Greg B... is the >> 'Peace Prayer of St. Francis.'<< song you refer to the one that starts with "make me a channel of your peace"??

if so, that song is still in use today. I hear it alot at funerals for Policemen or Firemen and/or at Masses in Parishes where the Franciscan 3rd order has a large presence. As i recall, the priest that was killed in 9/11 was a Franciscan and that was the song his fireman chose to sing as they carried his body out of the wreckage.

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Greg B
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 03:50 PM

There were two St. Francis prayers, both started
that way (if it started 'I've got a lovely bunch
of coconuts,' it wouldn't be St. Francis, now
would it?).

One was up-beat, very suitable for 2.5 chord
chunka-chunka accompaniment. The other was
quite sedate, and required the guitarist
to be able to distinguish one string from
the next and maybe play a run or two.

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 04:44 PM

Sebastian Temple's "Make Me a Channel of Your Peace" (1967 - so it's from the Folk Mass era) is still in frequent use in my diocese, Sacramento. It was also used at Princess Diana's funeral. Lyrics are in this thread (click).
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Greg B
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 05:36 PM

Ah yes...that was the upbeat one.

I think the slow one is a St. Louis Jebbie version.

Sebastian Temple...that takes me back.

Subject: RE: 'Danny Boy' at Catholic funeral
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 12 Oct 06 - 06:21 PM

Yes Joe_Offer, it's the Sebastian Temple one that is still sung at the occasions I mentioned. brings me back too GregB