BS: Ford Workers' Calamity

Subject: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 08:03 PM

Ford Unveils Job Cuts, Plant Closures

Can't believe there isn't a thread on this yet.

Apparently the recent US gas prices killed Ford sales, so Ford is buying out a LOT of employees. How surreal is that-- oil biz and car biz screwing each other?!?!? And who actually loses-- the workers, and the people and small businesses who depend on them.

What's your take on all this?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 08:11 PM

Well, I don't think I'd say the oil companies are responsible for the downfall of the Big Three American car manufacturers, who have insisted on continuing to build bigger and bigger gas guzzlers.
Honda and Toyota do it better, plain and simple.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: bobad
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 08:24 PM

Yeah, it seems like a no-brainer to me; Hummers, Hemis, Dodge Ram Tough - it seems that they just don't get it in the good ol' US of A.

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: pdq
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 08:30 PM

The question is "can workers in Middle America who make $10 an hour afford a car built by workers making $75 an hour".

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 08:37 PM

A good share of the blame really has to go to the unions. According to this site, at least, the hourly wage of the average UAW auto worker is $25 per hour, or over $50,000 per year, and if you include the value of benefits, increases to $65 per hour or more than $130,000! And this includes a lot of people who never put a hand on a car. People certainly deserve a fair wage for the work that they do, but maybe Detroit could be more competitive if the people who sweep the assembly line floor were paid something more consistent with janitors elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 08:47 PM

And the median family income in the U.S. is $46,300. So the UAW workers are hardly making out like bandits.

U.S. Auto manufacturers have been turn out overpriced, gas guzzling crap
for the last 20 years. That ain't the fault of the unions.

If you want to get exercised about salaries, check what the Big Three are paying management, execs & CEO's- with benefits, stock options, golden parachutes, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: bobad
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 08:50 PM

It seems canadians will be taking a hit also:

Ford Eyes Job Cuts
Josh Pringle
Friday, September 15, 2006

Ford's St. Thomas and Windsor plants are believed to be threatened by the latest restructuring at Ford Canada.

More job cuts are expected to be announced today.

It's predicted the automaker will focus on slashing white-collar jobs, including middle management.

Ford is cutting as many as 30-thousand jobs and closing 14 North American plants by 2012.

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 08:53 PM

If you want to get the attention of the American consumer, you have to hit him/her in the pocketbook. And that's what's been happening lately. It takes awhile to get their attention (great story about a prize mule and a guy with a three-foot length of 2x4 that I won't go into that right now), but it seems that after going to the gas-pump a few times to fill up the RoadCrusher SUV and paying $60.00 for what used to cost about $25.00 not that long ago, the RoadCrusher, for all its macho appearance, is no longer such an attractive vehicle anymore. When it comes time to replace it, or when one gets fed up with gas prices at last, a Toyota Prius starts looking very nice indeed.

Every once in a while, even that congenital idiot known affectionately as the American consumer has been known to stick his/her head up and look around a bit.

I have a 1999 Toyota Corona myself. I have a friend who has a Toyota Prius, and he loves it! Great little car!

And before some twinkie jumps in and tells me I'd be a lot safer in a bigger, heavier car, be it known that on a couple of occasions, I have maneuvered my way out of an imminent collision because my car is small—and quick—and nimble. I couldn't have done that in a big SUV. By that way, have you ever seen an SUV that's been hit by a Greyhound bus? Not a pretty sight.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: pdq
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 09:03 PM

American car companies make a good profit on trucks and large car. They make close to nothing on most small cars. No profit, no money to pay the workers. Sorry, it just works that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 09:16 PM

Toyota and Honda employees (plants in the U. S., employing American workers) don't make that much less than those at Ford, GM, and Chrysler. Very close, in fact. Toyota's are the best selling car in the U. S. And in the world. They sell more cars than Ford, GM, and Chrysler put together.

They make lotsa little cars and they make a dandy profit on them. American companies need to learn how to make a good small car. They're about thirty years behind.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: LilyFestre
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 10:08 PM

Don,

   I have to disagree with you on the safety issue (although it does depend on the make and the model of the vehicle). My husband was in a head on collision (other driver dropped something and when he bent to get whatever he dropped, he crossed the line) with a Chevy truck. My husband was in a Ford truck of the same size. The collision was so hard that the body of my husband's truck was knocked right off it's frame. At the time, we also had a GEO Metro. Had my husband been in that small, very gas mileage friendly car, he would not be alive today. I'll pay more for the gas, thanks.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 10:33 PM

What a load of crap, pdq. The comment that $10 workers can't afford cars made by $75 autoworkers. First we allow countries to dump product in our market made by workers in countries with no worker or environmental protections, create trade laws that exacerbate that problem, destroy our industrial base and the middle class in the doing so, then bitch that workers are only making $10/hr and shouldn't have to subsidize autoworkers who have paid their dues, and negotiated every damn benefit they have. Toss in automakers who refuse to design efficient vehicles, with top heavy management structures, and you want to blame the autoworkers. I keep hearing about these $100K autoworkers from folks that don't know what the hell they are talking about. Any of the older employees making that kind of money are working 6 and 7 day weeks for months on end. In case you haven't noticed, the auto contracts have tiers in them. Most of the new employees hired in the last 10 to 12 years are working for significantly less than the old workers. CEO salaries have risen at incredible rates, but not the younger workers.

You are welcome to your opinion, but when it based on phony bullcrap, don't expect folks to sit by and allow it. Now, are you going to accuse me of being a bully???

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: LilyFestre
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 10:36 PM

I should also mention that my husband walked away from that accident with a nasty bruise from the seatbelt and a sore knee. He was incredibly lucky. Both drivers were going approximately 65mph. The other driver was taken away in an ambulance and there was nothing left of his truck. Our truck was totaled as well but again, but it was built well enough to protect the man inside...which I am thankful for each and every day. I think that speaks volumes for the Ford truck.

And yes, an SUV hit by a bus isn't a pretty sight but any car, SUV, minivan or pickup would pretty much be toast in that situation.

I suppose the macho factor is part of the reason for many of the purchases of SUVS and trucks but I don't think it's the only reason. Safety is the number one factor in the purchase of any of our vehicles since the accident.

Back to the original post of this thread...due to the closings of several of the plants, many dealerships are also closing...one of which is local for the originator of this thread (and me too!). It's a shame as that dealership had the best service department and I am sad to see it go.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 10:36 PM

I didn't posit that as an absolute rule, Michelle, but the fact is that I have, on more than one occasion, driven out of a situation that if I had been in a larger vehicle, I wouldn't have been able to. Is it not possible that in the GEO Metro your husband could have seen it coming and swerved out of the way and not been hit at all?

Every potential accident situation is different, so it's hard to set general rules--including "you're safer in a bigger, heavier vehicle," (the rational many people use because they want the panache of an SUV or a truck when they actually have no practical use for one).   Hence my example of the SUV and the Greyhound bus.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 10:40 PM

There will ALWAYS be some vehicles larger than others on the road. Some of us can't afford to be that 'safe'.

I want the safety to be in the ODDS of being hit by a much bigger vehicle....I think smaller and more fuel efficient should be the rule unless you can justify LARGER for business purposes. Perhaps the licence for larger should be much more.

I have a larger van I need for crafts business, (to carry equipment), but it gets driven very little. (Have had it for 11 years...if it dies, I will not replace it, but will rent one when necessary)

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: pdq
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 10:44 PM

I said: "The question is 'can workers in Middle America who make $10 an hour afford a car built by workers making $75 an hour'. " Nothing more and nothing less. If someone's own self image is that of a bully, that is his problem, not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: LilyFestre
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 10:50 PM

No Don, it isn't possible that he could have swerved out of the way. DUH. He would have been dead. He did swerve (he was way over in the breakdown lane before he got hit) and the other vehicle crossed over so suddenly (think jerking of the wheel), there was no way he would not have been hit. And, just for the fun of thinking the smaller car would have swerved him any faster out of the way, the Metro would have been in a ditch....that would have wrinkled the car and killed him too. A co-worker of mine also drove a Metro. She and I both drove over 50 miles one way to get to work and then time was spent on the roads getting out into the field...we thought we were being smart...saving money on gas. Yeah. She was in an accident and was killed. A larger, heavier, more solid vehicle would have saved her life. She left behind a child that she adopted only a few months prior.

Funny how Consumer Reports don't list the smaller cars as the safest vehicles on the road.

I agree that not all larger vehicles are safer. The Chevy truck that plowed into the love of my life might have well been made of tinfoil. The size did nothing to keep it's driver safe. I've read that the new Hummers that are on the road are completely useless safety wise as well.

Rock on, man. Be safe. Drive whatever you like, the choice is yours. I'd love to have better gas mileage but not at the expense of my family. I'll cut corners or make fewer trips but I will not compromise on the safety issue.

For us, it will be the safest vehicle we can afford.

Michelle

PS. We live on the top of a mountain where 4x4 is a requirement and not a fashion statement. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: LilyFestre
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 10:56 PM

Hey PDQ,

   Do you think that anyone who doesn't live with their parents and makes $10.00 an hour would be able to afford a new car regardless of how much money the builders of the new vehicle were making?

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: Janie
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 11:30 PM

What Mick said.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 06 - 11:50 PM

In any case, Michelle, I'm glad your husband came out of it okay.

And good point:   somebody making $10.00 an hour, if he or she can afford to buy a car at all, will undoubtedly buy something that is "previously owned." Ford or whoever has already got its money out of that vehicle.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: DougR
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 12:50 AM

Union contracts and worker's benefits Ford agreed to pay after bending to Union demands is what is killing Ford Motor Company.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 12:59 AM

Aside from what Mick said & I agree with him. There are other reasons for the decline in the big 3 American. They don't build their vehicles as safe as they could be. Far more foreign designed/manufactured vehicles are built with a closer eye towards safety & fuel consumption. The plants of the big 3 & other American manufactured vehicles are out dated in comparison with other countries, espically 3rd world countires that have just entered the market. Their plants are designed with the lastest in high tech advancements & it would be tough for the American plants to have to rebuild every 3-5 years to keep up every time a new foreign plant gets built with all the new advances that keep making those already in production obsolete & the bastards already knew this, ever since they subsidized Chrysler (remember the song: "I'm Changing My Namme To Chrysler"). This has been an ongoing problem & it keeps getting swept under the rug. When there's no real money for R&D, which gets gobled up at the top, & all the tax attraction for putting R&D money went out the window you can go & thank big government for that one.

(from an above post)

"The hourly wage of the average UAW auto worker is $25 per hour, or over $50,000 per year, and if you include the value of benefits, increases to $65 per hour or more than $130,000."

$25 p/hr isn't unreasonable but when you say including bennies up to $65 p/hr & you say that, that's the union fault. Wrong. Did you include what of that amount is for Fed & state & local taxes if there are any, unemployment ins. health & welfare, worker's comp, SS, any types of plans inluding retirement & etc. medical & etc. that's not just union, most of that's required of any BIG manufacture. It's not required of over seas manufacturers though & that's not a fault of the union either.
If you don't think that the Detroit Dunces & the Oil Opecs & their pals in politcial policy play making aren't playing ball with each other you aren't watching the game. This country could've produced safer vehicles that consumed less fuel ages ago. They could've gone
with researching & developing hybird yrs back had they wanted to look at & consider the future instead of their pockets & government could of made it more attractive for them to do that & at the same time made it more attractive to the consumer too. As for the $10 p/hr worker affording a new car they (the worker) have been priced out of other markets too. Again, not the fault of the unions. Face it, it's Big Business & Big Government that are at fault here, stop putting the blame where these 2 are telling you where to put the blame.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 01:01 AM

The United States of America is itself a union. Interesting how much folks change when the issue of workers making a decent wage comes to the fore. Yep. The sky is falling, Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 01:06 AM

Jesus, some of these vehicles cost more than I paid for my house & the last Ford I bought, a vehicle for my construction company was a piece of shit, brand new. I had to make it take off more days than I could afford to take off myself....& I ran the business. At that point I only bought foreign both for family & company.

Fix
Or
Repair
Daily

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 09:26 AM

I drive a Saturn. Steel, crash bars in the doors, 30 MPG.

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 09:41 AM

A larger, heavier, more solid vehicle would have saved her life.

Or not- in some types of accidents, regardless of vehicle size, people are going to die.

If more (all?) of these overly-large, overly heavy, gas-guzzling unnecessary pieces of crap could be taken off the road, the situation would be considerably safer for folks driving rational-sized vehicles.
Then too, they create a false sense of invulnerability in drivers which causes them to take chances that needlessly endanger themselves and others. The bloat-mobiles are in large part making the safety problem worse- they're not part of the solution.

Folks who really need 4WD - not folks who THINK they need it (I've lived in the northern mountains with 140 inches of snow anually & temps down to -30°F) for 30 years and got along just fine without it driving to work daily for 27 of those years) don't have to drive a Lincoln Masturbator or a Chevy Cetacean - e.g. my current 4 cyl. Toyota 4WD pickup.

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: LilyFestre
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 10:21 AM

Greg,

That particular accident happened at a low speed with a larger, older car (you know, when the really made cars!). Had she been in a similar vehicle as the driver or a decently made pickup/SUV, etc, she would have had some damage to her vehicle, but she would be here today. No question about it.

Also, we have walked up the side of this mountain enough times in the winter to know that we do indeed need the 4x4 (not some super beast though...same as you...4 cyl. vehicles). And that walk would happen after all possible routes have been tried. I'm glad you never were in that situation. Of course, it also depends on how well the roads are taken care of where you live. That's a whole other ball of wax.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: LilyFestre
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 10:25 AM

As makes and models change from year to year, so do the safety ratings for each vehicle. Some improve and some don't. The best you can do is make an informed decision.

Safety Rating


Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 10:25 AM

Actually, the idea that the older, bigger cars were safer in a wreck has been disproven many times. Todays small cars, in fact any of todays cars, are much safer in a crash than the old tanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 11:19 AM

In an encounter between an aggressive, armed person and an aggressive, unarmed person, the armed person will surely win. So, for safety's sake, everyone should be armed. Right?

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: LilyFestre
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 11:37 AM

Not in regards to a GEO Metro Mick.

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 12:27 PM

my opinion= correct
your opinion=load of crap, phony bullcrap


...it just never stops!

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: LilyFestre
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 12:59 PM

LOLOL

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: LilyFestre
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 01:03 PM

Ok, let me make you feel better. A large, old, Caddy ran into a Geo Metro that was stopped. The Caddy couldn't possibly have made the Metro into an accordian crushing the driver, no siree, that would just have been impossible. And there are no SUVs or trucks on that road that provide better protection than a small car. I couldn't have been more wrong in my posts, not even because they were real events in my life that I saw. Please forgive me for sharing my own experiences and thoughts. Whatever was I thinking? This is, after all, MUDCAT, where it is HIGHLY UN-PC to share a reality. Fifty flogs with a wet noodle for me!

ROFLMAO...some of you people are just TOO much!!!!!!

Michelle who won't say another word on this thread, mmmmmmmmmkay? LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: kendall
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 01:17 PM

Doug, what is killing the car companies is a combination of corporate greed, and the inability, or unwillingnes to changs. They were warned back in the 50's and they laughed at those upholstered rollerskates.

This sums it up:
The dinosaurs died out because they were unable to adjust to a changing enviroment.As far as I'm concerned the old Fordasaurus can lie in the bed it made.

Sometime back, the workers were being blamed for the crappy cars that Detroit was putting out, then they did a study, and found that the Hondas that were being assembled here were just as good as those coming from Japan.Clearly the crappy cars were the fault of the designers, not the assembly line workers.Another lie blown to hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 03:20 PM

Stop, Michelle. No one is telling you not to have an opinion, and disagreeing or having an alternate view is not implying such. My comment was of a general nature, not a specific example. In general, the smaller cars of today are much safer in a crash than the old beasts. A Geo Metro against a Sherman tank does not disprove that. Use of that example is demagogery.


Thank goodness all worked out.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 06:38 PM

I'm sickened by this as much as Susan is. Incrementally, "less and less" is the norm now. Politics, civil liberties, the right to unionize and try to protest the insanity--and fight back. All are being dehydrated like a mud puddle on a 120 degree day. Read Robert Frost's short poem called "The Oven Bird." ---- The bird frames his silent query: "What to make of a diminished thing!?"

From where I am now, it's simply too sad.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: kendall
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 06:59 PM

...the times they are a changing.

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 07:12 PM

Part of the difficulty is spiriling inflation. Somewhere in our heads we have got it imprinted that we need more and more. The Earth is a place with finite resources, finite wealth. (True, there are controlled things like diamonds, gold, etc.) That said, we push for a quality of life that even Kings and Queens never had. Cars in every garage, phones in every house, computers in every room. Instant this and instant that. Of course, the rest of the world pays for our luxury, so why give a shit?

There is no damned way anyone can make sense of the fact that house prices where I presently live have DOUBLED in the last year and a half. Houses that people bought three years ago for $100,000 are now going for $225,000. Same house, same land, same services. Yes, I know it's supply and demand, but it still makes no sense. Banks are offering 35 year mortgages--good investment for banks because when the house 'owner' can't keep up, the bank owns a house they can sell. And people do it. More, more, more.

Much of the key to happiness is getting rid of the crap. St Basil said, "The coat hanging in your closet belongs to the poor man." Maybe he was right. And maybe it's time our society stopped living on the sweat of the reat. Our society complains when our steak is a tad underdone. Meanwhile, we can expect 2,000,000 children in this world to starve to death this year. Something is wrong with the picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 07:14 PM

Her in the Uk I drive a decent sized Peugeot diesel turbo with a kick that can get me out of almost any trouble and does an average of 48.9 to the gallon. Cruises at 65/70 and has done over 100 miles an hour!
America needs to re-invent the Mini with that sort of mileage. it would be a gift for the rest of the world that's trying to face up to climate change.

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 08:31 PM

Had she been in a similar vehicle as the driver or a decently made pickup/SUV, etc, she would have had some damage to her vehicle, but she would be here today.

Had she been in an APC, she would have walked away, too. Does thet mean that everyone should be driving armored personnel carriers?

I think not.

Also, we have walked up the side of this mountain enough times in the winter... [snip]... I'm glad you never were in that situation.

I've had to walk & I've had to dig myself out of snowbanks. That's part of living in this part of the world- occasionally comes with the territory. My advice to folks that never want to be in that situation: move south.

Also, many SUV's and "sport pickups" (whoever came up that inanity?) are inherently unsafe due their overly high center of gravity plus the pickups, without weight in the bead have no rear wheet traction. We have a rollover accident at least weekly- summer included- on the interstate nearby and its ALWAYS an SUV type vehicle. These vehicles only give the illusion of safety to those that don't know any better.

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 11:29 PM

As you point out, Greg, SUVs and such only give the illusion of safety. Because of their high center of gravity, SUVs are involved in more roll-over accidents than any other vehicle, and an unloaded pick-up truck is inherently unstable. In addition, too many people who drive these beasts seem to think they're invulnerable and drive like they don't care if it rains or freezes 'cause, in their Sherman tank, they don't need no plastic Jesus.

When you drive a smaller car (especially with all the monsters on the loose), you have to learn to drive defensively, which means you keep your eyes open, use your mirrors, make a point of knowing what the people around you are doing, and anticipate. But then, this is what one should do no matter what kind of vehicle one drives.

If you tailor your life around fear of what might happen, you'll never leave the house. But then, most accidents happen in the home.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 11:30 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 06 - 11:31 PM

Then that problkem could be solved by everyone living in someone else's home.

Subject: RE: BS: Ford Workers' Calamity
From: kendall
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 06:39 AM

I don't want to give the impression that I am not in sympathy for the loss of thousands of jobs. I am on the side of the grunt who has no control over the operation of a company.