Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy

Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 02:16 PM

FRED MCORMICK, contact Nic dow, Nic is avery honest and well respected peformer [ why dont you get his side of the story. You might be misinformed
ON THE SUBJECT OF ROYALTIES. you really make me laugh, I recorded with three different labels,and only Brewhouse ever paid me any royalties.Brewhouse werethe most honest and genuine people on the scene.
It is quite common on the folk scene because selling 1000 copies of an album, which is what most folk artists sell is not financially viable , most artists accept this and see that the[ producers, recording labels are not making much either]neither did PETER KENNEDY, I never saw him driving through Totnes in a silver Rolls Royce , GET REAL.

Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 02:10 PM

Greg, I'm one of those credulous folks who missed the footnotes about the Cornish songs. Thanks for that information.

That's the kind of factual criticism that must be disseminated regardless of whether the perpetrator is otherwise a "nice" person.

I believe that the point of the "criticism" invited by Rod Stradling is not subjective assessment, it's collation of the facts, positive and negative, such that eventually, in viewing the whole, people can make their own subjective judgements as necessary to directing their own actions: like how and whether they use the material provided by Peter Kennedy, and what models they use in proceding with and from their own work of studying and collecting folk culture.

And in this process there is certainly value in assembling the subjective judgements of those who feel that Kennedy's actions had negative effects on them personally, particularly, of course, those from whom he collected.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 01:50 PM

I can'y comment about kennedy's treatment of people he collected from, I don't know anything other the gossip you pick up. But I do have a serious criticism of his intellectual honesty, whicjh I think is important in the collecting business. For instance, in his big book(cant remeber the title,Folksongs of britain or somesuch) he printed the Cornish songs with the words translated into Cornish. Now, that would have been fine as interesting footnoes or something, but he put the Cornish words in just the same same place as the English words of other songs. This amounts to me as passing off a counterfeit as the real thing: in fact there were tiny footnotes which if read carefully would tell you that they were in fact translations, but you had to be really concentrating to spot them. I know for a fact that this deceived some credulous people into believing that these Cornish words were the originals of the songs. I believe he also rewrote a lot of songs and passed them off as something he had collected, though I have no definite personal knowledge of this. These two points I do find worrying: if someone claims to be a collector, you should be entitled to take what they offer you as what they collected, not something they've made up to back up some theory or other.
    But in general I'm with Captain Birdseye: he left us a fantastic treasure chest of music, and there's maybe not a great deal of point in being too picky about how he went about it, now he's dead and gone. Let's just relish what he rescued. But while relishing it, take it all with a pinch of salt!

Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 01:49 PM

No. How he treated the people he collected from is far more important. His failure to regard those people as sensate human beings who made and practised their own artistic culture, and whose lives and sensibilities were reflected in that cluture, undermines just about everything he does.

Regarding Rod Stradling, he was sent an allegedly very poor cassette about and wrote a harsh review of it twenty years ago. That doesn't sound much like axe grinding to me.

Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 01:34 PM

I can only speak from my own personal experience, as I had no financial dealings with him , I found him charming ,knowledgeable and very enthusiatic about traditional music.
   as regards nic dow.its irrelevant that these remarks were made 5months, 5 years or twenty years ago , it shows to me that he [ rod] has an axe to grind.
what i can say thats positive about peter kennedy is that he has collected and left us with a rich legacy of traditional music, isnt that more important than anything else.

Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 01:10 PM

Dick,

On a point of order, Rod Stradling's review of Nick Dow's cassette was written twenty years ago. Therefore, your sentence "Firstly Nic Dow, AND NOW Peter Kennedy" doesn't hold a whole lot of water. Neither do most of your other comments.

I can't speak for several of the points Rod has made. For instance, it's news to me that Kennedy was ever dismissed from the EFDSS. As I recall, he left (maybe to pre-empt dismissal ?) and took the copyrights of the songs he had collected whilst in their employ with him.

However, I can confirm that many other points are true. EG., he issued cassettes without seeking the permissions of the people he had recorded. Moreover, I know of at least one case where he released another collector's recordings without even asking the collector.

Equally, as you point out, Kennedy issued recordings of various traditional singers (Phoebe Smith and Joe Heaney come to mind) with unauthorised backing dubbed on.

Also, it's true that he claimed copyright royalties on behalf of the people he recorded, and was on occasion known to pay up. However, the terms of his agreements with those people were nothing short of outrageous.

For that matter, his Folktrax empire must qualify as one of the biggest rip offs in the history of recorded music. If you don't believe me, look at the costs involved, and look at the prices he charged. Then look at the incredible shoddines of his productions.

I agree, nobody's perfect, and I do sometimes wonder whether there's a positive correlation between folksong collectors and personal shortcomings. But whilst one can level criticisms at Sharp, Baring Gould, the Lomaxes, or whoever, one can usually find something positive to say in their favour. I would need to look long and hard before I could find anything positive to say about the way Peter Kennedy behaved towards others.

Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 10:49 AM

If someone is in such a position as to not know how to pay the next phone bill, then I doubt very much if they could afford to carry on collecting.
I know of at least one person that had a full time job and collected a vast amount of material at his own expense and made it available for issue over a number of years, and I am sure there are several more. Any return which he got from this was a fraction what what he spent. In answer to your question it might have been better if one worked as a bank clerk because then you could more probably afford to carry on collecting.

Incidentally I trust that as well as posting to this thread that you are all making your comments known to Musical Traditions as I am sure that there are people who read that mazine that do not read the mudcat threads.

Good luck with your re-recordings Dick.

Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 09:48 AM

I would suspect that virtually all of the collectors of that era--Goldstein, Lomax, MacColl, Kennedy etc.--had their share of warts. What can't be denied, though, is that they made the folk music world a far richer place that it would have been without them.

Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 09:36 AM

If Rod is bringing the matter up for other people , why dont they stand up and say who they are and explain their begrudging attitudes.

Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 09:33 AM

RE RUSTON HORMSBY[we are not looking at bootlegging of the rolling stones]EXACTLY. this is all so petty and small minded.
I feel pretty pissed off with Dave Bulmer, suppressing my recordings, but he bought the recordings when I couldnt afford to do so, so legally he can do what he wants,.
The only thing i can do is re record them .
At least Peter Kennedy never suppressed recordings and made this wonderful music available for all who wanted to hear it, Even if he made an impecunious living while doing it, after all these recordings were not commercial hits. Rod Stradling although professional in the quality of his music has [as far as I know always been semi pro].KENNEDY after he finished working for the EfDSS, had no other means of support, all this has to be taken into consideration when making judgements.
Sometimes it can be difficult for those with steady jobs, to know how it feels not to be able to pay the next phone bill,Would it have been better for him to have become a bank clerk and to have given up collecting ,I dont think so.we would all have been the poorer.

Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Ruston Hornsby
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 08:35 AM

Suddenly it all makes sense - possibly. 20+ years ago I was playing melodeon in a pub in Barton upon Humber(N.Lincs)following a carnival where I'd been dancing with the morris team. I ended up talking to a few old locals who it turned out had been part of the 1952 one-off revival of the local mumming play - which included a sword dance. In conversation it came out that they felt some resentment towards the "folk" movement as the believed that somebody had "collected their dance and some tunes and songs and gone off and made a lot of money from them". I was suprised at this (I was pretty new to folk then)and thought that they were referring to Grimsby Folk Club stalwarts John Connolly, Bill Meek, Brian Dawson and co, all of which I knew had done a bit of collecting but were all totally honest and driven soley by their love of the music and the need to save what they could of the surviving local tradition. I passed this opinion to them - I hope it did some good - an thought little more of it. Years later I wanted to find more out about the Barrow play and their musician Luke Stanley. I spoke to both John and Brian, and apart from anything else, it was apparent that they had a good relationship with him all the way through - there was no way they were the people that that had caused the ill feeling. Using Google, I discovered Peter's FolkTrax site and it's archive recording of the play and it's music, a copy of which I purchased. Could this have been the root of the problem that led to the door being slammed in Barton as far as the play and music was concerned? If it is, it has to be seen as ill founded - and a great shame. I can see how it could be viewed as somebody profiting from a recording of someone else's playing but we're not looking at a bootleg of the Rolling Stones here, are we? I still think that Peter's work is far more good than harm, how else could I have got to hear Luke Stanley play melodeon?

Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 07:34 AM

quote[if and i repeat if the stories of bbc financed tapesgoing missing from the EFDSS then whoever was responsible does not deserve respect whether he or she is recently departed ] since this cant be proven its better not to mention it, even by mentioning it doubts are raised against peoples character ,it is totally unfair.[ innocent until proved guilty]
   Rod Sradling has previously attacked Nic Dow on a simliar vein, you do not deny this, wehich makes me suspicious of Rods motives.
   anything that Peter Kennedy did or didnt do needs to be taken in context with the time and attitudes he was operating [ Just like Cecil Sharp]under.
I agree the dubbing on of accompaniments was a mistake, but overall his legacy is a plus. can we not remember the better sides of people . what point does it serve raking over events that happened nearly fifty years ago, and really relatively unimportant events ,talk about tilting at windmills. Rod is becoming the Don Quixote of the folk scene.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 05:35 AM

Yes indeed many people have feet of clay and some have sticky fingers.

IF and I repeat IF the stories of BBC financed tapes going missing from the EFDSS is correct then whoever was responsible does not deserve respect whether or not he/she is recently departed.

As for Peter Kennedy not making vast amounts of money from folk music, how many people have ? I personally know several serious collectors to whom we owe a great big thankyou for finding and recording and issuing mainly at their own expense a large amount of material. Unfortunately they sometimes or should I say usually don't even get that.

With regard to your coments on Rod Stradling, I believe that he has brought the matter to light at the request of several other people and is aking for comments from both pro and anti. I personally think that Musical Traditions does a very good job at keeping the folk following at large well informed and offers all a chance to air their opinions. As far as I am concerned Rod gets my thanks for running a very interesting and informative on-line magazine.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Scrump
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 05:17 AM

There was a thread about PK following his death, but I'm b*gg*red if I can find it.

First Ewan McColl, now PK. They weren't angels, but both men did a lot to raise awareness of folk music in their time. I never met Peter but found him very helpful when I contacted him with a query.

Why not remember these people for the good they did, rather than focus on the negative aspects?

Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 04:33 AM

I have just read Rod Stradlings comments, What a sad man he is, he seems to make ahabit of attacking people, Firstly Nic Dow, AND NOW Peter Kennedy. its my belief that Peter Kennedy and his good points will be remembered longer than Rod Stradling, however I suppose we have Peter Kennedy to blame for the introduction of the g d button accordeon [ and the subsequent elevation to guru for Rod Stradling].Many people had feet of clay [ Ewan Maccoll, Baring gould cecil Sharp ] isnt it better to let them rest in peace, AND JUST ACKNOWLEDGE THE GOOD THEY HAVE DONE. Its time Rod Stradling locked himself up inside his button accordeon case and showed some respect for Peters memory and his widow.

Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 04:14 AM

Peter Kennedy was wonderfully enthusiastic abut traditional music , he was a good player of the button accordion. Kennedy also did a vast amount of collecting [ for which I am personally in debted]he was also responsible for the introduction of the g d button accordion into english folk circles. I met him on two occasions in TOTNES, I consider it an Honour to have known him, He was a Positive man who did a lot of good for the folk revival.
    TO HIS DETRACTORS I SAY THIS. he was not someone who made vast amounts of money from the english folk scene. yes he was a professional and he made aliving out of it, but so do Lou killen and Martin Carthy.The very fact that Peter had to go out and busk when he was quite elderly confirms this. I visited his home twice, his style of living was un ostentatious, and did not fit in with the ludicrous idea that he was somekind of financial ripper offer of folk people, any more than Cecil Sharp was.

Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 01:27 AM

Meanwhile the usual mud can be slung here.

Sorry, not that I'm inviting mudslinging, just anticipating the quality of exchange that can sometimes be found here when passions run high...

~ B in T

Subject: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 17 Sep 06 - 07:38 PM

A few days ago, Rod Stradling posted an interesting invition on the Musical Traditions site: Enthusiasms No 53 ("A collection of shorter pieces on subjects of interest, outrage or enthusiasm ..."): Peter Kennedy.

Here's his introduction to a list of 35 points:

"In Derek Schofield's article on Peter Kennedy in the current issue of EDS he wrote: 'There have already been calls for an open and critical debate on Peter's lifework'.

"Over the years a file of comments and information has built up in my office. I have now edited it into a series of positive and negative points about Mr Kennedy. I contacted Derek, saying that if I were to publish this in MT and ask for readers' additions and amendments, would he be interested in publishing the result in EDS? He replied that he might well be interested, adding that the Journal might be an even more appropriate place for it.

"Accordingly, what follows is a conflation of comments and information from myself and others regarding Peter's Kennedy's lifework. At it stands, it will seem biased towards the negative - primarily because the published material to date has been almost all positive, as befitted the 'obituary' type of writing which followed closely upon Peter's death. Readers with additions, amendments or corrections are asked to e-mail me with their contributions; I am particularly interested in concrete examples of traditional performers not being paid royalties, not being asked for permission to publish their music, not being informed of Folktrax publications (as in Negative 4, below). [My emphasis - BN]

"I will then subsume these contributions within the piece and submit it to Derek for possible publication by the EFDSS. If they decide not to do so, I will publish it here."

Rod Stradling - 14.9.06

On the Mudcat, Kennedy's name has arisen frequently, mostly in citations of song origins (which threads I did not probe in detail in my search here), but there are just a few comments on the man himself:

Obit: Peter Kennedy (10 June 2006)
Peter Kennedy's Folktrax collections (Oct. 2001)
Voice of the People: SPECIAL OFFER! (Nov. 2001-Jan. 2002)

I know there are some Mudcatters who can speak from personal knowledge (and not just opinion) on the topic. Get yourselves to MT. Meanwhile the usual mud can be slung here. ;-)

~ Becky in Tucson