It's a fair cop! (taping radio broadcasts)

Subject: It's a fair cop!
From: Dr John
Date: 04 Mar 99 - 04:07 PM

OK, I confess; I'm guilty of making illegal recordings from the radio. Why? See the "overproduced recordings" thread - the live performances are better to me than those available on CD. There are lots of moans about making air shots from artists and record producers about this terrible crime but ten years later we get - does anyone have a recording of this or that concert we want to issue it on CD! See the Nic Jones thread and how else would we have Woody Guthrie's "Columbia River Collection" without copying. I wait for the midnight knock on the door; hopefully it will be "have you still got those Isla StClair air shots from Jim Lloyd's programme on radio 2!

Subject: RE: It's a fair cop!
From:
Date: 05 Mar 99 - 12:42 PM

I make a living performimng and recording music and every time you copy it you"ve got your hand in my pocket...that is not a fair cop.

Subject: RE: It's a fair cop!
From: Bert
Date: 05 Mar 99 - 12:57 PM

If you tell us who you are, Dr. John could maybe send you the royalties for any of your songs that he may have.

It is two sided subject though. I've bought new recordings which I never listen to (because they are junk, so I was ripped off) and pirated tapes (you couldn't buy anything else in the Middle East) that I do play now and then. So I'm guessing it works out about even.

Several episodes of Dr. Who only exist today because of home made copies. I'm sure the same thing applies to music as well.

Also, wasn't there a law passed that allowed personal use of a single copy?? Or is that jusk folk-law.

And what about filler tracks that are put on a CD just to make weight. We've all got them haven't we, CDs with two good tracks and 8 trashy ones.

Let's devise a way to pay artists (and others) for the home copies and get rebates for trash that we buy because it comes bundled. I wonder who would come out ahead? Or, perhaps, we should stop whining and leave things as they are.

Bert.

Subject: RE: It's a fair cop!
From: Pete M
Date: 07 Mar 99 - 04:57 PM

Well argued Bert, the other issues our anonymous friend has overlooked is that many recordings made are of live shows, either directly or via the radio, so it is not a case of defauding the artist, buying a recording is not an available alternative. More importantly, how can you quantify the actual loss of revenue from copies made, against the gain in revenue from the extra recordings etc sold as a result of listening to the original copy?

Pete M

Subject: RE: It's a fair cop!
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Mar 99 - 05:48 PM

On the other hand, I can remember when I was manager for my brother, a classical composer/pianist. My "volunteer" job included everything, esp. making each and every cassette (of all original music), by hand, on the only dubbing machine we could afford: a boombox. We sold over 3,000 of those and every time a friend would say, "Oh, don't worry, I'll just make a copy", for a distant friend or whoever, I would cringe and then go into my speech about how much each one cost, even without my hours added in, and how it really was meant to be his livelihood and didn't they know it was against the law, and they were depriving him of income which any merchant would call shoplifting?***grin*** I got pretty strident 'cause it was my a** doing all the work of making, promoting, producing, etc! Plus, my husband and I were supporting him with room and board in our house with 3 kids!

In addition, what we had on tape were live performances and radio broadcasts, which we were sure to record, by hook or by crook. They are a little funky, but the music and his piano playing, as well as the orchestra (on one of them) were fantastic and nobody complained. It was one way we kept control of the "product". Later on, we capitalized on it by billing them as one-of-a-kind collectors' series.

Back then, there was a move on to add a surcharge to every blank tape sold, to be divided up amongst those with musical/performance copyrights. It failed to pass in Congress. Now, with CDs, the Web, etc. it will be even harded for musicians to get their "just desserts".

I'm in for it now, aren't I!***chuckle***

I understand the argument of the first copy encouraging people to buy subsequent tapes/cds, but I don't buy that as an excuse to pirate. I've generally found that if I hear music, like it, and want it, there is usually a way to accomplish that without making my own copy.

I think it's just like copying a book: unless it's rare, out-of-print, totally unobtainable by any means, most people wouldn't dream of buying a ream of paper and copying a book which is in print.

Okay...I've braced myself, bring 'em on!:-)

katlaughing

Subject: RE: It's a fair cop!
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 07 Mar 99 - 06:40 PM

Recording things off the airwaves for one's personal use (as oppoosed to commercial purposes) is a perfectly acceptable practice. It's the underlying principle behind having a VCR. VCRs allow you to time-shift television shows.

Years ago (around 1970) I used my reel-to-reel tape recorder hooked up to my radio to record and "time-shift" the folk radio program "Woody's Children" on WQXR in New York, which came on Saturday evening during dinner hour at my prep school. I was able to come back to my room later in the evening and enjoy the program. I probably still have many of those tapes, which preserve both the recordings and commentaries of Robert Sherman. (On the other hand, the tapes haven't been played in almost two decades, may well be fragile, and I'll have to find a working reel-to-reel tape recorder to listen to them.)

--Charlie Baum

Subject: RE: It's a fair cop!
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Mar 99 - 07:51 PM

Charlie,

Only difference is television broadcasters do not sell their programs to you, directly. They sell them to the advertisers. Thus, when one uses a VCR to time shift (I love that expression!, one is not impacting the livelihood of the people who made the movie, in a direct way. When a musician peddles tapes or cds, they expect to earn a direct income from consumers'purchases.

If everyone taped things off air for their own personal use, how would anyone make a living off their own recordings? I know that is farfetched, but it illustrates the point I'm trying to make.

I don't believe there is any other genre which gets pirated in such numbers and in such privacy. Perhaps there will come a time, with the Internet and all, but traditionally it's been music's loss and not that of literature, art, etc.

Then there's the fact, I know, I'm belabouring the point, that it is illegal. People file copyrights on their music presumably to preserve their ownership of it. It's hard for me to imagine musicians condoning pirate copies from other musicians' works.

Just thoughts...

kat

Subject: RE: It's a fair cop!
From: j0_77
Date: 07 Mar 99 - 07:57 PM

Well this has to be the last straw fer me- first off nobody I ever heard is that original that all their efforts are so different that they are entitled to more of my hard earned cash. Second why should I pay for 10 tracks when I only need one. Third the people who gain the most benefit from royalties do not play at all ( merchants/distributers ****executives ) Forth I have been ripped off by some of these so called original recording artists so many times it aint funny. Bootlegging sucks not because it is wrong but because the quality is usually so bad. I say if you think you are that good, get MPG3, a web site put up a freebe and then see if folk come back for some more - you can have a credit card transaction deal on the site too. (BTW *g*r*i*n* using this system you get rid of all the middle men and I get a great deal like 75 cents for a track and not 20 bucks for a cd that I don't want)

Subject: RE: It's a fair cop!
From:
Date: 07 Mar 99 - 10:36 PM

On the other hand, someone who tapes stuff off the radio for personal use might end up buying the CD, because the sound quality is so lousy. I assume that such taping is taken into account when live concerts are broadcast.

Subject: RE: It's a fair cop!
From: Frank in the swamps
Date: 08 Mar 99 - 07:01 AM

I've got piles of cassettes taped from radio, I taped them for the reason Charlie Baum gave, I couldn't be around to listen to the whole show. So I'd plug one in and go. I've made diligant efforts to find some recordings because of what I've got on tape. But I'll never just toss those cassettes away, Too much good stuff I never would have bought anyway, can't afford that many cd's. I'd be happy to pay some of those artists directly, but that's not generally feasible.

Frank i.t.s.

Subject: RE: It's a fair cop!
From: Aldus
Date: 08 Mar 99 - 09:25 AM

This is an interesting discussion.....we have many excuses for illegal taping, and for depriving artists of payment. I agree with anon..this is simply sticking your hand in someone elses pocket. Musicians rely on cd sales to make a living and to cavalierly excuse yourself from theft by declaring you don"t like some of the songs is absurd. I have a number of friends who make a living from recording..and the fewer "justifiers" there were the less difficult life would be for them. Selling cds off the back of a combie is no fun... we dont need "tapers" stealing the profits.

Subject: RE: It's a fair cop!
From: Dr John
Date: 08 Mar 99 - 03:22 PM

Yes I make "illegal" recordings off the airwaves but for my own personal use. If I were to ever sell them - or sell copies - I'll certainly send the artist a proportion of the sale price. The recordings are either of live performances and, if the titles are available ,I'll buy the CD but then ,although this has certainly far better sound reproduction, it is often nowhere near as good as the live performance as in come the keyboards, choirs, orchestras etc while the live performance often has a simple accompaniment; or it is is of a long deleted LP. If I can find a good second hand copy of the LP I buy it (often at an inflated price) but then the artist doesn't get the royalties in this case either. There were some very good live perfomances on Jim Llody's "Folk on Two" (BBC) but the subsequent CD's were a dissappointment so I play the tapes. I've now replaced my Nic Jones airshots with second hand LP's which was cetainly not to his advantage either; however if the CD's ever appear I'll buy them so redressing the balance a little.

Subject: RE: It's a fair cop!
From: Bert
Date: 08 Mar 99 - 03:53 PM

I agree that we should pay for our music, but as I said above

....devise a way to pay artists (and others) for the home copies and get rebates for trash that we (have to) buy because it comes bundled.

After all when I go into a hardware store to buy a good screwdriver I am not forced to also buy another 9 pieces of junk that I haven't even seen yet.

So artists, if you want total honesty, get your acts together, because we do too. We want to hear you at your best but very few CD's are like Art Thieme's or Tom Paxton's (two who give true value for money).

For example to get 3 songs that I liked of one popular folk singer, I had to buy 3 CDs.

I know!!! I've got an idea let's mint special Dollars for buying CDs so that only one or two tenths of the paper looks like a dollar and the rest is childish scribble.

Bert.

Subject: RE: It's a fair cop!
From:
Date: 08 Mar 99 - 09:34 PM

I should add to my earlier message, that I remember Robert Sherman playing two albums in their entirety during the three years I taped his show--and I went out and bought both of them. (They were vinyl records in those days--Elton John's first recording and Dory Previn.) Purchase of the album give you access to the notes, the printed lyrics, the credits of who is playing the back-up instrumentation, and all sorts of information not given on the broadcast; not to mention much better sound quality.

Also, our terminology is getting fuzzy here, which can only lead to fuzziness in the logic of our discussion. We need to distinguish between illegal activities and immoral ones. You may object to my taping something off the radio (though the advertisers are paying for time on the radio, just as they are on the television), and you may find moral objection to my not reimbursing the artist for his or her contribution to my general pleasure, but it's not illegal.

To muddy the waters a bit, what happens when the copyright is sold or otherwise reassigned so that the artist gets no benefit whatsoever, no matter how I acquire my version of the song? This can get us into discussions of intellectual property as saleable or resassignable property. Abuses in that subject have led me to the conclusion that under certain circumstances, it may be illegal, but it's only wrong if you get caught.

For instance: I have been for many years a great fan of music from Russia and other areas in the [now former] Soviet Union. Back in Soviet Union days, the tirazhe (size of the edition) was often kept much too small for the demand, and the ONLY way to obtain a copy was through a samizdat (do-it-yourself) copy. If I hadn't made a copy of a recording by an obscure Georgian choir, I never would have been able to have it, nor to turn my friends on to Georgian choir singing.

--Charlie Baum

Subject: RE: It's a fair cop!
From: Adus
Date: 10 Mar 99 - 08:54 AM

In some places...most places where there is mutyal copyright law, taping off the radio is illegal. As for the rather self serving arguement..."I don"t like most of whats on the Cd......then don"t buy it. A person who buys a cd, 80 per cent of which they don"t like, should not be rescued from their folly by the artists. we seem to feel we live in age of entitlement.....we are entitled to rob other people of just payment for artistic efforts.....a selfish stand at best.....royalties on product sold is the only fair way to pay artists... no one else has their salary swindled from them in this way. If all of our incomes were subject to weather or not someone wished to pay us...I bet the "it"s my right to rob you crowd" would soon get the point. I hate to be so pointed on this, but as one those constantly robbed, I"ve no tolerance for the willful theft of my earnings, and much less tolerance for those who view it as their "right"..spare me..just be honest, you are stealing from people. It, s the dishonesty that drives me round the bend. Go ahead if you must, steal the royalties, but at least don"t add insult to theft by excusing yourself.

Subject: RE: It's a fair cop!
From: MAG (inactive)
Date: 11 Mar 99 - 02:36 PM

gee, if I want a song to LEARN it, every folk milieu I've ever been in said it was de rigeur to at least buy the artist's tape. and if you're goingto play it in front of other people, especially for money, you had better ask permission if it is original material.

ten bucks for a song is cheap, people.

Mary ann

Subject: RE: It's a fair cop!
From: Bert
Date: 11 Mar 99 - 03:24 PM

ten bucks for a song is cheap, people.

Yup, you're right Mary ann It sure is. Hadn't thought of it like that. I was thinking of all those CDs and tapes which I have bought which never get played 'cos there's too much junk on them and it takes too long to find the odd good number here and there.

I'm going to buy Art's CD - Every track's a winner. (I listened to Max's copy. I didn't copy it - Honest!)

Bert.

Subject: RE: It's a fair cop!
From:
Date: 11 Mar 99 - 09:42 PM

Taping deleted albums is fair game. Otherwise, you can't get them. I can think of loads of deletes I've taped, and I would be the first to buy them in the highly unlikely event any came out on CD. I did learn that one of the artists in question had a new tape out, and immediately ordered several copies from him personally in the UK, at great expense. In fact, I gave one to a friend who does artist bookings and he was so impressed that he is getting the guy some gigs over here.

You might as well say that buying second-hand LP's or CD's is immoral. The artist doesn't see a dime.

And if your LP is deleted and you can't have it re-issued, do what Diamond Joe White did and record the sucker all over again to be released on CD.

I never tape off the radio any more. The sound is crap anyway. However, I used to work at a student radio station years ago and there were some LP's and tapes solely for radio release that I wish I had taped. (The BBC kindly sent us colonials free LP's of concerts at the expense of the British taxpayers. These were not commercially available and we had to send back to the UK when we were done with them. I obeyed all the rules even though I had exceptional taping facilities available to me at the station.)

A money-back guarantee on CD's is certainly a business-like thought. Lots of other industries offer it. So is the idea of offering loss leaders in the hope that people will buy your product in the future. Presumably that's what taping off the radio entails, a kind of loss leader. Even stingy businesses like law and accounting offer loss leaders by giving free seminars and talks and handing out free literature full of free advice.

In Canada, there was talk of putting a special tax on tapes to assist in solving this problem, but it doesn't seem to be getting anywhere. It wasn't very much per tape and wouldn't have stopped me from buying them. I don't know how they planned to divy up the cash amongst the artists -- presumably guys like Michael Jackson get taped more than guys like Nic Jones -- but knowing Canada I suspect the government would have found a way to pocket the money.

Subject: RE: It's a fair cop!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Mar 99 - 11:59 PM

If I remove all the rational reasons (it's a rip off, sound quality, it's unavailable, etc.) why I should or should not tape someone, I'd be left with something either more logical, moral, reasonable & maybe benificial to more involved parties. Should we agree that the efforts of an artist be compensated then it's a matter of when, why & where. If I go to an art museum & see students using a painting as a study piece to paint (no cameras please), do they pay the orginal painter when their only use of the masterpiece is personnal not commerical or should we keep all the music locked up where we can charge to let you hear a one of a kind copy at the music museum. Will we be able to police the airwaves in a way that we could set up a music library, no card, no listen, no copy. If I hear a song & want to learn it, do I pay the copyright holder for this privilege or will they be pleased that somebody got to finally expose their song to the ear of another.

Some people ask at their concerts "please don't tape if you haven't bought our recordings". I can't understand denying them those earnings, on the other hand if they don't make that request or mind then aren't they leaving that to the listener's moral judgement. If it's on the air, it's not a matter of sound quality, it's out there & it's up for grabs, maybe the radio station pays for royalties but should the listener at home who has a tape recorder on with no thought of using it for any commerical use or profit. If I make a copy of a tape for someone because it's no where to be found & out of print do I pay a price or just refuse to make a copy (even if it's wearing out from use?), the alternative is go to the rare songs department of your local music library & pray that it's on the shelf & not lost or completely forgotten.

Now could someone out there tape that program off the TV, "River Of Song", I'd love a copy, I missed it & heard it was decent. Will you send the producer a check or should I? Barry

Subject: RE: It's a fair cop!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 12 Mar 99 - 06:45 PM

No matter what arguments are put forth, taping WILL be done...by the good, the bad, and the ugly. The first time I thought about it was when at a festival workshop, someone asked me if I minded them taping my music. I said sure. Then they asked the other two folks who'd be on stage as well, and both not only said a loud "NO!" but lectured the young lass as well. 25 years later I guess I'm still ambivelent. If someone asks politely, I say "go ahead", if they seem to have "attitude", I say "I'd rather you didn't". But that's the way I relate to people in EVERY situation. I have no use for rude people and try to avoid them whenever possible. For considerate folks with a smile on their face, I go out of my way. (I've met far more of the latter in folk music than in "real" life)

As far as taping recordings, I've taped others and been taped myself. I think my investment in this lifestyle has been substantial over the years and the same can be said for many others. I may have lost a few bucks but frankly I don't care. If I was a better businessman I would have gotten another job years ago. Believe me I know what the arguments would be from the anonymous pro at the beginning, and he/she is absolutely correct in taking that position, it just ain't mine.

One thing that does get me cheesed though is "album filler". Having a radio show means I get a lot of submissions and the VAST majority from singer-songwriters contain perhaps one or two well crafted songs, and eight or nine totally unmemorable ones. I know this is all subjective, but after a few years you get to recognise the music that has had effort put into it...and the fluff. Shit, I didn't mean to dump on S-Ss, but the trad albums I receive always seem to have music that the artist has been playing for a while, (a couple of years at least) and that makes for better listening.